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737-900ER On Trans-Atlantic Flights?  
User currently offlineCARST From Germany, joined Jul 2006, 812 posts, RR: 1
Posted (5 years 11 months 2 weeks 1 day 9 hours ago) and read 26531 times:

Hello A.netters,

are any of the airlines considering flying the 739ER transatlantic (as a 757-replacement)?

I looked at the figures of Boeing and it shows a range of 3200nm with 2 aux tanks and a 2-class layout (180pax).

Portugal, Spain, France (up to Paris), Ireland and Great Britain should be in reach of the 739ER from the NYC area. Portugal, Ireland and Great Britain should be reachable, too, from the Washington area.

I know some of the routes (everything from IAD, Paris or Madrid from NYC) would max out the range of the 739ER and the airplane would face bad headwinds on the Europe-USA legs, but still i think the airplane could have chance being utilized on these routes.

The airlines could use the plane with max pax and cargo, too, i think on the USA-Europe legs and would have to fly the plane back with some weight restrictions (no cargo?).


As a 737 won't come up before 2015-2020, what are the chances of 739LR with more range, perhaps some 1000nm more?


What do you think?


CARST

52 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineJJ8080 From Brazil, joined Aug 2008, 932 posts, RR: 0
Reply 1, posted (5 years 11 months 2 weeks 1 day 9 hours ago) and read 26472 times:

Think that in runs were the range is not a problem at all, it could be well used as a 752 replacement. I'm actually not aware about ETOPS restriction son 739ER.

What we can't say is that 739ER is a natural 752 replacer, as it don't have the legs.



100 146 319/20/21 332 722 732/3/4/5/G/W/8/H/9 742/3/4 752/3 762/3 772/W BE2 BET E75 CNJ CR2 D10 F27 F50 ER4 LRJ M11 M80
User currently offlineNicoEDDF From Germany, joined Jan 2008, 1099 posts, RR: 1
Reply 2, posted (5 years 11 months 2 weeks 1 day 9 hours ago) and read 26433 times:



Quoting CARST (Thread starter):
range of 3200nm with 2 aux tanks and a 2-class layout (180pax).



Quoting CARST (Thread starter):
739LR with more range, perhaps some 1000nm

I think it might be quite a challenge to get an over 30% increase in range out of a already pushed frame.
Considering 12-13% of fuel reserve for wind etc., reducing ca. 400nm of the original range you won't even reach southern Scotland.

I guess its stressing the platform a bit over its capabilites.
But I would love to see it though but would avoid flying it. Big grin Nothing worse than sitting in B or E for 6-7 hours TATL.


User currently offlineCARST From Germany, joined Jul 2006, 812 posts, RR: 1
Reply 3, posted (5 years 11 months 2 weeks 1 day 9 hours ago) and read 26394 times:



Quoting NicoEDDF (Reply 2):
But I would love to see it though but would avoid flying it. Nothing worse than sitting in B or E for 6-7 hours TATL.

Seat width on a 737 is 17" with a 6-abreast economy class, 17,2" on a 757. No real problem if you can accept all the 757s being sent over the pond. I flow on a CO 757 TXL-EWR in march and it wasn't really comfy, but acceptable for the price and the direct routing...

Quoting NicoEDDF (Reply 2):
I think it might be quite a challenge to get an over 30% increase in range out of a already pushed frame.
Considering 12-13% of fuel reserve for wind etc., reducing ca. 400nm of the original range you won't even reach southern Scotland.

I not confident on what i say now, but i think the range figures made public by Boeing on their website already include the FAA reserve of 45 minutes or at least 200nm.


User currently offlineNicoEDDF From Germany, joined Jan 2008, 1099 posts, RR: 1
Reply 4, posted (5 years 11 months 2 weeks 1 day 9 hours ago) and read 26345 times:



Quoting CARST (Reply 3):
No real problem if you can accept all the 757s being sent over the pond

Thats true if you do. I don't. I just hate to sit cramped. But could be just me  Smile

Quoting CARST (Reply 3):
I not confident on what i say now, but i think the range figures made public by Boeing on their website already include the FAA reserve of 45 minutes or at least 200nm.

Oh, okay, didn't know that. Thanks for info!


User currently offlineCARST From Germany, joined Jul 2006, 812 posts, RR: 1
Reply 5, posted (5 years 11 months 2 weeks 1 day 9 hours ago) and read 26346 times:

I just checked seatguru and found it CO is putting "only" 173 seats on their new 739ERs, 20F/C and 153Y; compared to 16F/C and 159Y on the 752.

Both the CO 752 and the CO 739ER have a seat width of 17.2" and a pitch of 31". So it doesn't matter what plane you would fly...

The only thing that matters are the economics of the 739ER on the above discussed routes, any numbers?

[Edited 2008-08-19 16:08:40]

User currently offlineIpodguy7 From United States of America, joined Aug 2008, 322 posts, RR: 0
Reply 6, posted (5 years 11 months 2 weeks 1 day 9 hours ago) and read 26272 times:

I think we will definetly see CO use their 739ERs to maybe Ireland, the UK, and (possibly in the future) cities like KEF or SFJ!


Next Trips: BNA-ORD-LHR-JTR, HER-CPH, CPH-ARN-CPH, CPH-LHR-DFW-BNA, BNA-DFW, DFW-BNA-DFW (X3)
User currently offlineMCOflyer From United States of America, joined Jun 2006, 8664 posts, RR: 15
Reply 7, posted (5 years 11 months 2 weeks 1 day 9 hours ago) and read 26214 times:



Quoting Ipodguy7 (Reply 6):
I think we will definetly see CO use their 739ERs to maybe Ireland, the UK, and (possibly in the future) cities like KEF or SFJ!

CO has stated that it will not use the 739ER to Europe and other transatlantic markets.

Hunter



Never be afraid to stand up for who you are.
User currently offlineJetblueguy22 From United States of America, joined Nov 2007, 2762 posts, RR: 4
Reply 8, posted (5 years 11 months 2 weeks 1 day 9 hours ago) and read 26202 times:
AIRLINERS.NET CREW
HEAD MODERATOR

Are any of CO's 739ERs ETOPS rated?

Quoting Ipodguy7 (Reply 6):
I think we will definetly see CO use their 739ERs to maybe Ireland, the UK, and (possibly in the future) cities like KEF or SFJ!

I think that would be great on routes that aren't currently filling the 757. Would there be any way it could go to Portugal or even Spain?
Blue



You push down on that yoke, the houses get bigger, you pull back on the yoke, the houses get bigger- Ken Foltz
User currently offlineCARST From Germany, joined Jul 2006, 812 posts, RR: 1
Reply 9, posted (5 years 11 months 2 weeks 1 day 9 hours ago) and read 26204 times:



Quoting MCOflyer (Reply 7):
CO has stated that it will not use the 739ER to Europe and other transatlantic markets.

Not really a surprise, but they will know better than me. ^^


User currently offlineIpodguy7 From United States of America, joined Aug 2008, 322 posts, RR: 0
Reply 10, posted (5 years 11 months 2 weeks 1 day 9 hours ago) and read 26185 times:

If it had the legs i think it would perfect for niche markets like AGP or VLC or OPO or PMI, or maybe Seville.


Next Trips: BNA-ORD-LHR-JTR, HER-CPH, CPH-ARN-CPH, CPH-LHR-DFW-BNA, BNA-DFW, DFW-BNA-DFW (X3)
User currently offlineCARST From Germany, joined Jul 2006, 812 posts, RR: 1
Reply 11, posted (5 years 11 months 2 weeks 1 day 8 hours ago) and read 26157 times:



Quoting Jetblueguy22 (Reply 8):
I think that would be great on routes that aren't currently filling the 757. Would there be any way it could go to Portugal or even Spain?
Blue

737-900ER range 3200nm


EWR-MAD 3133 nm
EWR-LHR 3011 nm
EWR-LIS 2941 nm
EWR-MAN 2914 nm
EWR-DUB 2774 nm


At least DUB, MAN and LIS are reachable, a substitution for a 752 should be possible any time; if the airlines will do it or not, that is another question.


User currently offlineCARST From Germany, joined Jul 2006, 812 posts, RR: 1
Reply 12, posted (5 years 11 months 2 weeks 1 day 8 hours ago) and read 26132 times:



Quoting Ipodguy7 (Reply 10):
If it had the legs i think it would perfect for niche markets like AGP or VLC or OPO or PMI, or maybe Seville.

Depends on what range is possible because of the headwinds on the Europe-USA legs.

Too long:
EWR-PMI 3419 nm
EWR-VLC 3288 nm

Should be too long, too:
EWR-AGP 3195 nm

Possible:
EWR-OPO 2902 nm


Find out other destinations yourself using the GCM: http://gc.kls2.com/


User currently offlineTdscanuck From Canada, joined Jan 2006, 12709 posts, RR: 80
Reply 13, posted (5 years 11 months 2 weeks 1 day 8 hours ago) and read 26071 times:



Quoting CARST (Thread starter):
As a 737 won't come up before 2015-2020, what are the chances of 739LR with more range, perhaps some 1000nm more?

Where are you going to put the extra fuel? You can't take much more cargo hold space without killing the economics and auxiliary fuel tanks head into the land of diminishing returns pretty quickly. The wing is already completely full.

Tom.


User currently offlineRoseFlyer From United States of America, joined Feb 2004, 9508 posts, RR: 52
Reply 14, posted (5 years 11 months 2 weeks 1 day 8 hours ago) and read 26026 times:

The purpose of the 739ER was to create a plane that had the range and payload capability to fly routes similar to transcontinental flights in the United States. The intention was to give it about the same range as a 73G. Yes you can push a standard 739 across the United States as AS did for years, but there are payload hits. With margins so slim, that extra few seats and payload are what makes the difference between profit and not.

It's possible to get a 739ER across the Atlantic in the same way that a 73G will get across the pond. But it has to be in a reduced capacity configuration. It works for some airlines on specialty routes, but I don't think you'll ever see an airline like CO fly a 739ER across the Atlantic. Just because it technically can do it under ideal circumstances does not mean that it would work in service.

For reference Boeing states that the 757 can fly 4500 nm, yet the longest route that the plane flies is Newark-Berlin which is 3498 nm.

You are saying that the 739ER which is supposed to be able to fly 3200 nm in a perfect world will actually be able to make a route like EWR-LHR which is 3011 nm with 180 passengers. The 3200 nm range is with about half the payload of the normal plane. The 739ER capabilities drop off around 2400 nm.

Quoting CARST (Thread starter):
As a 737 won't come up before 2015-2020, what are the chances of 739LR with more range, perhaps some 1000nm more?

Boeing offers the 73GER if an airline wants to really push a 737. It has the wing of an 800 and fuselage of a 700. You won't see that on the 739ER. There isn't an easy way to do that.



If you have never designed an airplane part before, let the real designers do the work!
User currently offlineRoseFlyer From United States of America, joined Feb 2004, 9508 posts, RR: 52
Reply 15, posted (5 years 11 months 2 weeks 1 day 7 hours ago) and read 25862 times:



Quoting JJ8080 (Reply 1):

What we can't say is that 739ER is a natural 752 replacer, as it don't have the legs.

Well, the 737NG as a whole did a pretty good job at killing 757 sales. The 737NG had enough range to fly transcontinental routes in the US which were the bread and butter of the 757 routes. Airlines quickly realized they could fly smaller planes and increase frequency and open new routes with the smaller 737s. Yes the 757 still is a great plane and serves some routes very well.

Also, the 757 is a whole lot more expensive than a 737, so it has to have a better payback in order to cover its original price premium.



If you have never designed an airplane part before, let the real designers do the work!
User currently offlineSoxfan From United States of America, joined Mar 2008, 864 posts, RR: 0
Reply 16, posted (5 years 11 months 2 weeks 1 day 7 hours ago) and read 25738 times:

Did FlyGlobespan fly a 739ER across the pond last summer for some flights, or was it a 737-700? It's more a question of curiosity rather than serving as an example of using a transatlantic 737, because from what I heard it had to make some fuel stops almost every time!


Pilot: "Request push, which way should we face?" JFK Ground: "You better face the front, sir, or you'll scare the pax!"
User currently offlineMCOflyer From United States of America, joined Jun 2006, 8664 posts, RR: 15
Reply 17, posted (5 years 11 months 2 weeks 1 day 7 hours ago) and read 25704 times:

Soxfan,

I believe it was 738. I know they used it into SFB.

Hunter



Never be afraid to stand up for who you are.
User currently offlineJJ8080 From Brazil, joined Aug 2008, 932 posts, RR: 0
Reply 18, posted (5 years 11 months 2 weeks 1 day 7 hours ago) and read 25658 times:



Quoting RoseFlyer (Reply 15):
Well, the 737NG as a whole did a pretty good job at killing 757 sales. The 737NG had enough range to fly transcontinental routes in the US which were the bread and butter of the 757 routes. Airlines quickly realized they could fly smaller planes and increase frequency and open new routes with the smaller 737s. Yes the 757 still is a great plane and serves some routes very well.

Also, the 757 is a whole lot more expensive than a 737, so it has to have a better payback in order to cover its original price premium.

I'm not saying that 757s can't be replaced by 737s. It can... A 742 can also be replaced by 2 A332s, and so. I am just saying it's not the NATURAL replacer... Don't have similar spects, despite seating capacity.



100 146 319/20/21 332 722 732/3/4/5/G/W/8/H/9 742/3/4 752/3 762/3 772/W BE2 BET E75 CNJ CR2 D10 F27 F50 ER4 LRJ M11 M80
User currently offlineRoseFlyer From United States of America, joined Feb 2004, 9508 posts, RR: 52
Reply 19, posted (5 years 11 months 2 weeks 1 day 6 hours ago) and read 25583 times:



Quoting JJ8080 (Reply 18):

I'm not saying that 757s can't be replaced by 737s. It can... A 742 can also be replaced by 2 A332s, and so. I am just saying it's not the NATURAL replacer... Don't have similar spects, despite seating capacity.

What the 739ER can't do is carry a lot of cargo or fly a transoceanic fight.

What percent of 757 flights could be operated by a 739ER: ~ 80% with no payload sacrifice. 90% based on range alone which everyone on A.net seems to love. That's a pretty good replacement to me.



If you have never designed an airplane part before, let the real designers do the work!
User currently offlineIkramerica From United States of America, joined May 2005, 21474 posts, RR: 60
Reply 20, posted (5 years 11 months 2 weeks 1 day 6 hours ago) and read 25442 times:

This topic is discussed to death.

Quoting CARST (Reply 3):
Seat width on a 737 is 17" with a 6-abreast economy class, 17,2" on a 757.

Seat width is the same on all 707/727/737/757 models at 6Y. 17.2".



Of all the things to worry about... the Wookie has no pants.
User currently offlineBobnwa From United States of America, joined Dec 2000, 6449 posts, RR: 9
Reply 21, posted (5 years 11 months 2 weeks 1 day 5 hours ago) and read 25158 times:



Quoting Ipodguy7 (Reply 6):
think we will definetly see CO use their 739ERs to maybe Ireland, the UK, and (possibly in the future) cities like KEF or SFJ!

Why on earth would CO or any US airline want to fly to KEF or SFJ. There is very little demand for KEF and zero demand for SFJ. The little demand for KEF is being met by Icelandic.


User currently offlineFlaps From United States of America, joined Feb 2000, 1261 posts, RR: 4
Reply 22, posted (5 years 11 months 2 weeks 1 day 1 hour ago) and read 23257 times:

I really think that the only role that the 739ER has to play in the trans Atlantic market is to free up very precious 757's currently used on shorter runs to fill the missions listed above.It is just too much of a stretch of the 739ER's capabilities. It's a shame that Boeing ended 757 production when they did. They probably could have sold another 150- 300 frames in the last few years. There is a huge market in freight for it in addition to the secondary trans Atlantic markets.

User currently offlineKaitak744 From United States of America, joined Jul 2005, 2364 posts, RR: 3
Reply 23, posted (5 years 11 months 2 weeks 1 day 1 hour ago) and read 22976 times:



Quoting Flaps (Reply 22):
It's a shame that Boeing ended 757 production when they did. They probably could have sold another 150- 300 frames in the last few years. There is a huge market in freight for it in addition to the secondary trans Atlantic markets.

757 production was ended in favor of increasing the 737 line on the 757 area. Had the 757 line been in Everett, or elsewhere, Boeing would probably still be making 757s. I think it turned out better for Boeing. They are now selling hundreds more 737s per year rather than maybe ~50(optimistically) 757s per year.


User currently offlineBrightCedars From Belgium, joined Nov 2004, 1288 posts, RR: 2
Reply 24, posted (5 years 11 months 2 weeks 23 hours ago) and read 22048 times:

Yes I think the B737-900ER could make sense on the shorter TATL routes currently operated by B757-200s e.g. EWR-BFS, EWR-DUB, EWR-SNN, that sort of thing if they exist. It then allows deploying the B757-200 to other slightly longer routes.

However milking the euro may soon be a thing of the past for US airlines if the currency starts loosing more value against the dollar. Airlines will then be reluctant to start or even continue some small TALT hops as the profitability of the flights rapidly erodes.

I believe that to in order to keep this point-to-point offer in the future, an aircraft with range better than a B757-200 and economics 15-20% below those of the B757-300 will be needed. Here comes the B797!  Smile

[Edited 2008-08-20 02:10:56]


I want the European Union flag on airliners.net!
25 ThegreatRDU : what about the 737-700ER? it supposedly has longer range..........but less pax capabilities.....less room for cargo......plus the fact that its a 737-
26 MCOflyer : Well the only airline to order them in NH. If any airline were to order besides NH, it would be Privat Air. Plus it CASM is killer unless they can br
27 STT757 : CO has not yet fully utilized their 757-200s on Trans-Atlantic routes, there are some 757-200s flying domestically from IAH and EWR that could be rer
28 N383PA : Well I am imazed, every time this issue is been discusst some of you guys quote always the same things. Let me thing, I am pretty sure if I would hav
29 RoseFlyer : It definitely makes sense to make a change. Boeing makes 10-11 737s every month in the same space that they made 2 757s.
30 Pylon101 : After flying from Moscow to Madrid on Iberia A319 for almost 5 hours I should say that FLYING NARROW BODY ON TRANSATLATIC ROUTES IS A COMPLETE DISASTE
31 Mandala499 : OEW = 44 tons, MTOW is 85.1 tons, That gives 41.1 tons of fuel and payload to play around with. Say you want to put 173 pax in, say it totals payload
32 CRJ900 : I wonder if Icelandair has looked at them as smaller replacements for B752 on routes where the B752 is simply too big but the airline still wish to of
33 RobK : Agreed. It comes up approx once a week. R
34 Incitatus : Not so simple. When flying westbound, consider that the effective range of the aircraft will be impaired by about 15% because of headwinds. That is a
35 PlanesNTrains : There's a big difference between preference and capability. While we might construe that CO "prefers" to keep the 739ER's away from T/A routes, the r
36 Viscount724 : Seat width and pitch in economy class on most narrowbodies are almost identical to most widebodies. And those decisions are up to the airline, they'r
37 Brilondon : Why? It is no worse then sitting on a 777 or 767 in the middle seats. Quite frankly I don't mind the 737 on a trans ocean trip as in YVR-HNL on WS.[E
38 RoseFlyer : Well, everyone flew narrowbodies up until the 1970s when widebodies came, but then airlines started realizing that passengers don't want to have to s
39 CRJ900 : Why do manufacturers publish such optimistic range figures if airlines quickly realise that the aircraft can only fly 75% of that range in daily ops?
40 RoseFlyer : Airlines know the range of an airplane when they buy one. The numbers posted on the web are just for amateurs and are inflated figures for the public
41 COalways : At least in the near future they are not going across the Atlantic they are installing LiveTv from Nose To Tail at every seat and everyone knows that
42 Incitatus : Boeing's standard range figure for the 757 is 3900 nm. Berlin-Newark being transatlantic seems like the aircraft is being used to its full range capa
43 Roseflyer : You underestimate the amount of work that goes into forecasting. Yes the large airlines like Continental, Lufthansa, Singapore, etc have the experien
44 Incitatus : Sorry but I don't. There is a conflict of interest in a vendor telling a company how many units of machinery they need. Boeing's objective is to maxi
45 Tdscanuck : No. They have real payload/range data based on their specific operation and configuration long before they actually buy the airplane. Not exactly. Ai
46 N770WD : Absolutely right. Remember that airlines rarely order aircraft "stock" and never would take such a specialized aircraft as a 739ER without understand
47 CRJ900 : Perhaps European charter carriers will use the B739ER across the pond, Europe-YYT/YHZ-Can/US/Carribbean... I think FlyGlobespan has used the B738 like
48 HT : PrivatAir uses BBJ / BBJ2. And as they are catering for Business Flyers and other premium charters, they likely will continue to prefer the extra sou
49 Alphaomega : GSM leased out their only 767-300 to Air India and used a 757 as a replacement on the GLA-SFB route, however once a week on Saturday a 737-800 would
50 Incitatus : I never said an airframe maker will give bad advice. I said they will not give the best advice. I stand by my original comment: There is a conflict o
51 RoseFlyer : quote=N770WD,reply=46]In this case there are two challenges with the 9ER. First it's a difficult aircraft to finance on an operating lease, which mean
52 Incitatus : The other side of this is that if Boeing or Airbus go into bad airlines and help make them into mediocre businesses, they will limp along and drag th
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