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Spanair Flight Overshoots Runway In Madrid (MAD)  
User currently offlineBullpitt From Spain, joined Mar 2004, 871 posts, RR: 8
Posted (6 years 2 days 15 hours ago) and read 88438 times:

Hi all

A spanair flight has had an overrun in MAD does anybody have more info?

These are my principles but if you don't like them I have others
360 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
User currently offlineMastropiero From Spain, joined Dec 2005, 125 posts, RR: 0
Reply 1, posted (6 years 2 days 15 hours ago) and read 88521 times:

Checking out right now, apparently the plane has skidded off the runway, but everything is very confusing at the moment. No reports of victims so far. There is a small fire as well. One of the spanish newspapers says the plane is on fire and that there could be at least two victims.

On the other hand, another newspapers says there are no reports of victims, so I guess we will have to wait....

I hope everyone is safe...

[Edited 2008-08-20 06:10:53]

User currently offlineBBADXB From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 2, posted (6 years 2 days 14 hours ago) and read 88378 times:

Tele5 says they don´t have any further info apart from that posted above.

User currently offlineMestrugo From Chile, joined Apr 2007, 237 posts, RR: 0
Reply 3, posted (6 years 2 days 14 hours ago) and read 88380 times:

elpais.com informs the plane "provoked a fire and there's a big column of smoke". No victims reported so far.

Meanwhile, elmundo.es brings us some more details... it was a flight to Gran Canaria, had 160 passengers onboard and reports "there could be two casualties.... there's also reports of 43 wounded so far.

Flight number was Spanair 5022.

[Edited 2008-08-20 06:19:38]

User currently offlineAndrewC75 From United States of America, joined Jan 2008, 91 posts, RR: 0
Reply 4, posted (6 years 2 days 14 hours ago) and read 88373 times:

Fox News says there are reported casualties.

User currently offlineMestrugo From Chile, joined Apr 2007, 237 posts, RR: 0
Reply 5, posted (6 years 2 days 14 hours ago) and read 88251 times:

The flight was Spanair 5022.

User currently offlineSwiftski From Australia, joined Dec 2006, 2701 posts, RR: 2
Reply 6, posted (6 years 2 days 14 hours ago) and read 88140 times:

Quoting AndrewC75 (Reply 4):
Fox News says there are reported casualties.

Sky News reporting the same

User currently offlineSkyguy From United States of America, joined Feb 2004, 481 posts, RR: 0
Reply 7, posted (6 years 2 days 14 hours ago) and read 88146 times:

What kind of fleet of aircraft does Spaniar have?

"Those who talk, do not know, and those who know, do not talk."
User currently offlineBBADXB From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 8, posted (6 years 2 days 14 hours ago) and read 88016 times:

According to elpais.es, the JK flight was headed to LPA.

User currently offlineAircatalonia From Spain, joined Nov 2007, 551 posts, RR: 0
Reply 9, posted (6 years 2 days 14 hours ago) and read 88040 times:

According to Aena.es JK5022 is an M82

User currently offlineFlynavy From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 10, posted (6 years 2 days 14 hours ago) and read 88025 times:

Quoting Skyguy (Reply 7):

A320, A321, 717, MD82/83/87.

User currently offlineAndrewC75 From United States of America, joined Jan 2008, 91 posts, RR: 0
Reply 11, posted (6 years 2 days 14 hours ago) and read 87893 times:

Fox News now has live video... large column of smoke in field near the airport. JK5022 is MAD-LPA (Canary Islands). Scheduled as MD-87, I believe.

User currently offlineAndz From South Africa, joined Feb 2004, 8451 posts, RR: 10
Reply 12, posted (6 years 2 days 14 hours ago) and read 87856 times:
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Radio just said 2 dead 43 injured.

After Monday and Tuesday even the calendar says WTF...
User currently offlineIberia340600 From Spain, joined Oct 2003, 804 posts, RR: 14
Reply 13, posted (6 years 2 days 14 hours ago) and read 87860 times:

Television Española is saying that also at this time Madrid Airport is closed due to the incident. They are mentioning that some news agencies are saying 2 people dead but that has not yet been confirmed. Also confirmed 160 pax aboard and the flight was a scheduled Spanair flight from Madrid to Las Palmas(Gran Canarias). No further information yet.

Visca Barça!!
User currently offlineBasefly From Denmark, joined Apr 2007, 205 posts, RR: 0
Reply 14, posted (6 years 2 days 14 hours ago) and read 87857 times:

I hope the reports of victims are false.....

Quoting Skyguy (Reply 7):

They have Maddogs and A320 one´s.

Somebody maybe could find out what A/C was?

757/777-A340/A380, Love them.
User currently offlineBBADXB From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 15, posted (6 years 2 days 14 hours ago) and read 87863 times:

Live pictures on tve show a column of white smoke at a great distance.

The incident took place on take-off, apparently due to an engine fire.

User currently offlineRobbie86 From Sweden, joined May 2006, 537 posts, RR: 0
Reply 16, posted (6 years 2 days 14 hours ago) and read 87731 times:

Watching CNN right now, there's a big column of smoke coming from the airliner, JK 5022. Tele Madrid reports 163 passengers onboard. Witnesses says the left enginge was burning.

Next flights: ARN-LHR-IAD on BA 319/VS343 EWR-LHR-ARN on VS346/BA319
User currently offlineStarlionblue From Greenland, joined Feb 2004, 17015 posts, RR: 67
Reply 17, posted (6 years 2 days 14 hours ago) and read 87717 times:

Swedish tabloid Aftonbladet's website reports that El Mundo's website report 2 dead. Talk about circular reporting...

"There are no stupid questions, but there are a lot of inquisitive idiots."
User currently offlineRogerbcn From Andorra, joined Sep 2006, 1202 posts, RR: 20
Reply 18, posted (6 years 2 days 14 hours ago) and read 87740 times:


TVE informs that MD82 run out of R36 and caught fire. No confirmation of any deaths so far. The airport is closed for departures, landings as usual.


"At reise er at leve" H.C. Andersen (Travelling is Living)
User currently offlineAndrewC75 From United States of America, joined Jan 2008, 91 posts, RR: 0
Reply 19, posted (6 years 2 days 14 hours ago) and read 87561 times:

Deleted. The "live TV" link I posted is doing informercials now.

[Edited 2008-08-20 06:32:58]

User currently offlineIberia340600 From Spain, joined Oct 2003, 804 posts, RR: 14
Reply 20, posted (6 years 2 days 14 hours ago) and read 87578 times:

I am watching now CNN+ and the live feed they have shows a lot of white and black smoke. Looks like the camera that is showing this is from the M-12 highway but the plane is not visible.

Now they are showing a feed from another source and there are 2 separate areas of smoke...one white....and one black. The 2 smoke columns look far apart from one another.

Visca Barça!!
User currently offlineRogerbcn From Andorra, joined Sep 2006, 1202 posts, RR: 20
Reply 21, posted (6 years 2 days 14 hours ago) and read 87425 times:

TVE correspondant informs that bodies are being rescued from the site.

"At reise er at leve" H.C. Andersen (Travelling is Living)
User currently offlineMyt332 From United Kingdom, joined Sep 2003, 9112 posts, RR: 70
Reply 22, posted (6 years 2 days 14 hours ago) and read 87283 times:

METAR LEMD 201300Z 14004KT CAVOK 29/03 Q1018 NOSIG

So nice enough weather, a bit on the warmer side though.

One Life, Live it.
User currently offlineLxlgu From South Africa, joined Sep 2000, 1085 posts, RR: 1
Reply 23, posted (6 years 2 days 14 hours ago) and read 87362 times:

According to Amadeus the aircraft was a MD82
Aircraft left the gate at 1305 and returned to the ramp at 1342 due to mechanical problems and then had an ETD of 1425


User currently offlineSpeedBirdA380 From United Kingdom, joined Jul 2008, 539 posts, RR: 2
Reply 24, posted (6 years 2 days 14 hours ago) and read 87112 times:

They are reporting on sky new's that the plane aborted take-off after fire was seen in the left engine.

25 Ogre727 : They say in el Pais "many causalties"... i hope they are wrong.
26 JoKeR : Sky news saying no deaths
27 Zillox : Damn... A pitty. I love spanair. The problem is that everybody is reporting news but nobody has the correct facts![Edited 2008-08-20 06:40:20]
28 Starlionblue : At this point the cynic in me thinks that a news website would write anything just to get the traffic.
29 Post contains links Rojo : El Mundo is reporting 7 people dead and 20 injured. www.elmundo.es
30 Starlionblue : Of course the commentator on CNN is calling it an MD-90.
31 Post contains links Brad49 : http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/7572643.stm BBC News Channel says no dead. 20 injured say some reports. Others say possibly 7 dead. Left engine appa
32 JoKeR : Sky news now saying its an A320. According to flight stats it was MD-82
33 GrahamHill : I just heard this news as well. El Mundo is reporting "at least two fatalities". Let's hope it's not confirmed.
34 Post contains links SKY1 : From home I can see right now that column of smoke It sounds fishy to me. According to the Spanish newspaper "El Pais" unfortunately there are deaths
35 Myt332 : It's ok, the BBC were saying maybe they were trying to circle to 'dump' fuel. Must be one of those pimped out MD82's if it could dump fuel.
36 Iberia340600 : CNN+ now saying that emergency services representatives stating 7 dead so far and another 24 injured.
37 Schoenorama : Spanish radio Cadenaser says that 'airport officials' have assured them that there are no fatalities, despite what another source ('Emergencias') is s
38 Rogerbcn : Hola de nou! TVE latest news, 15.49 with a journalist on the site. 7 dead and 20 injured. Cameras show a big column of smoke. Roger
39 Starlionblue : I get the feeling that if I go to bed now (it is almost 2200) I'll have all the info I want in the morning. The next few hours will probably not yield
40 SpeedBirdA380 : So far we have had report's of the plane being an MD-82 an MD-90 and a A320. Then report's that there were no dead - two dead -seven dead. Then it was
41 Post contains links Brad49 : Update: Reuters - people have been killed. Update: At least 20 injured/ at least 7 dead. Fuselage split in two. UK residents can watch BBC live video
42 Post contains links Schoenorama : Live video from CNN+ (spanish) http://www.quiero.tv/tv/television.asp?url=10526
43 Mestrugo : elmundo.es reports 50 casualties. elpais.com talks about 'at least 20 casualties.
44 Post contains links Schoenorama : Cadenaser now also speaks of 7 dead while CNN+ states the aircraft had aborted an earlier take-off attempt due to 'technical problems'. It's unclear w
45 Mexicana757 : Sky News is reporting it was an MD82 and the left engine caught on fire as it was taking off. Sky News is also saying that El Mundo is reporting that
46 Brad49 : Just had that confirmed on BBC News.
47 Post contains links SKAirbus : From the SAS (owner of Spanair) website: Original link: http://se.yhp.waymaker.net/sasgroup/release.asp?id=171406 This confirms the equipment involved
48 Acelanzarote : rummored to be MD83 EC-HFP, sad news. However if its true it crashed while taking off with a engine fire then just hope for good news regarding surviv
49 Smeg : The BBC "expert" also said that a twin engined jet requires both engines to take off, and that an engine fire will inevitably spread to the cabin! Wh
50 Iberia340600 : CNN+ saying that total souls on board are 162 + 2 babies and 9 crew members. 9 crewmembers for an MD-82 sounds a bit much doesnt it?? Also mentioning
51 AirbusA346 : It is already on Wikipedia. Tom.
52 RAFVC10 : Seems that this aircrafts had operational problems before to attempt the take-off according with Amadeus info... DOJK5022 * OPERATIONAL FLIGHT INFO *
53 BananaBoY : Comentator on BBC from "el pais" saying that the aircraft aborted a take off and received mech attention before attempting it's second and final takeo
54 SKAirbus : Question: Does the fact that the MD80s engines are mounted onto the fuselage increase the speed of a possible fire from entering the cabin than for l
55 Ogre727 : It was about 50 minutes ago... I went in to check info on Spanair and it was already there...
56 Maxisno1 : Sad to hear that. I hope everyone is okay. Still early hours.
57 Cainanuk : I could see 9 crewmwmbers if they had a couple of engineers on board or perhaps 3 on the flightdeck. A normal crew of 2+6 isnt unheard of.
58 EUROBUS : Now talking about 50 dead. Oh my God! RIP
59 ThegreatRDU : up to 50 reported dead according to CNN
60 Mastropiero : It is being reported that the plane had a one hour plus delay because the pilot had detected some problems prior to his scheduled take off. Also lates
61 BananaBoY : Spanish Interior Ministry has confirmed 25 dead. Probably likely to vary for quite some time... Mark
62 AirbusA346 : Someone on Sky News says it was a codeshare flight with LH. Tom.
63 Post contains links KrisYYZ : CNN is now reporting up to 50 dead.... horrific accident, may they rest in peace. http://www.cnn.com/2008/WORLD/europe...8/20/plane.crash.madrid/index
64 B747forever : Here in Sweden they also say 50 dead. Really sad news. May the rest in peace.
65 Mestrugo : The image coverage I've seen so far is way too far from the accident spot. I know it's too sookn to ask, and the reports mention a runway overshoot...
66 Iberia340600 : CNN+ also confirming now that the aircraft involved aborted takeoff once due to mech problems...returned to the gate and then on the second attempt po
67 Post contains links and images Maxisno1 : At least seven people have been killed after a plane swerved off the runway at Madrid airport, emergency services say. Dozens more people are being tr
68 B747forever : Swedish news says the a/c got airborne and then emergency landed.
69 EUROBUS : AENA has give an assistance phone number for affected people to call for information on travellers: 800 400 200. This number is for calls made in Spai
70 Iberia340600 : Also at this time MAD airport closed to both arrivals and departures.
71 Maxisno1 : Number is now estimated at 21 by BBC.
72 RootsAir : May all the victimes R.I.P. Im am looking at the spanish TV and may all my regards go to the victims' families .. BM
73 Atlanta : Fox update: 21 dead Atlanta
74 B747forever : Which runway did the a/c use??
75 ThegreatRDU : 2 sections of smoke so likely the aircraft was separated in some way
76 Ogre727 : According to El mundo it was 36R
77 B747forever : I expect that number to rise, unfortunately. Some media is reporting up to 50 dead.
78 Post contains links Maxisno1 : BBC live video news link. http://www.bbc.co.uk/newsa/n5ctrl/live/nb/wm/video/now3_nb.asx
79 BuyantUkhaa : 36R according to earlier post.
80 Ogre727 : El mundo now reports over a 100!
81 E195 : bbc saying reuters are saying all but 25 have perished May they Rest in Peace
82 Maxisno1 : BBC VIDEO FACTS Thought to be carrying around 160 people holiday makers and crew. Smoking still rising above airport Fire above left engine. Just taki
83 Rogerbcn : Listening to Spanish radio, CadenaSER. An eyewitness reports the plane took off, lifted for about 200 feet and then an explosion was heard and the pla
84 ZSOFN : According to BBC quoting Reuters, all but about 25 on board are feared dead. That could mean as many as 148! Awful news.[Edited 2008-08-20 07:39:48]
85 PanHAM : yes, it is a direct connection, daily fra-mad-lpa with the mad-lpa portion operated by jk. Possibly connects fom other German airports as well. JK is
86 FLVILLA : According to Reuters update from the live BBC feed all but 25 passengers are feared dead !
87 AirbusA346 : TVEi are showing what I think to be live photos of emergency services etc and a reporter in the airport. Tom.
88 B747forever : OMG that will be around the range of 140 dead.
89 Rogerbcn : Spanish Government now confirms 35 dead.
90 Post contains images Maxisno1 : Not confirmed yet. I truly hope that there are more survivors. R.I.P, a truly sad lost. [Edited 2008-08-20 07:42:10]
91 Post contains links ADRIANGALT : BBC reporting it was an MD80 and 7 dead, still very confusing until they get a handle on it. http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/7572643.stm
92 EUROBUS : Always according to the news, SUMMA, the Madrid's urgency medical service has already attended over 50 injured passengers on site, so hopefully there
93 SeeTheWorld : BBC saying up to 150 dead.
94 Mestrugo : Darn. The situation is so gloom we can only expect there are as many survivors as possible. 47 casualties confirmed as I type this.
95 AirbusA346 : TVEi seem to be showing better coverage even though I don't understand a word of Spanish. Tom.
96 ADRIANGALT : BBC update now saying 20 dead
97 Southwestjeteh : werves off Madrid runway, fatalities reported Comment | Recommend 2m ago from USA TODAY This just in from The Associated Press: "An airliner bound for
98 TuRbUleNc3 : Sky news says only maybe 20-25 survived from a total of 175. A very sad day indeed.
99 Post contains links Danfearn77 : http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/7572643.stm according to the BBC there are 20 dead and many injured. Says weather conditions were fine on take
100 Maxisno1 : BBC VIDEO UPDATES People being sent to different hospitals. 150 thought to be to much by reporter @ airport. 45 people are thought to be confirmed dea
101 Post contains links OOer : According to 'El Pais' Spanish newspaper.... Aircraft: Md-87 Location of accident: Rwy 18L Casualties: At least 45 Injuries: 57 Flight: JK5022 http://
102 Radarbeam : Spanish Govt is confirming 45 dead and 19 injured. R.I.P.
103 Iberia340600 : CNN+ now saying 46 dead and the toll keeps rising. Hopefully it is not 150 like BBC is saying.
104 Haggis79 : well for the moment we can just hope the Reuters reporter got the 25 confirmed deaths wrong as "all but 25 dead"....
105 Mexicana757 : Reuters is saying the Spanish government has confirmed 45 casualties and 19 seriously injured.
106 EUROBUS : Also, on Spanish TVE1, 4 camp hospitals have been installed on site and are attending injured people near to the crash. Reporters say about 25 person
107 SKAirbus : Right now the BBC website is saying 20 ... where did you get that number from???
108 AndrewC75 : Maybe since "casualty" can be either an injury or fatality, we can hope for the best.
109 B747forever : Wonder how old the a/c is.
110 Post contains links Vfw614 : Looking at the television pictures, the site where the smoke is appears to be quite a distance away from the runway. Or is it just a trick of angle? A
111 E195 : spanair website Spanair regrets to confirm that its flight number JK 5022, from Madrid to Las Palmas de Gran Canarias was involved in an incident at M
112 Mestrugo : CNN+ says the plane was an MD-87. But MD-87s have a max. capacity of 130 passengers; if there were over 160 people onboard, it's more likely the plane
113 Post contains links Mexicana757 : Spanair has press release out on their website. It was flight JK 5022 from MAD to Las Palmas. An LH codeshare flight # 2554. http://www.spanair.com/we
114 Airblue : Aircraft involved is EC-HFP an MD82
115 Maxisno1 : Now BBC are saying 173 people were on board. At least 45 killed and 40 injured Statement by Spanair - "Spanair regrets to confirm that its flight numb
116 Maxisno1 : BBC UPDATE Live pictures of plane been seen taking-off, contradicts reports of airport being closed.
117 Post contains links BuyantUkhaa : http://www.elpais.com/articulo/espan...elpepuesp/20080820elpepunac_14/Tes Says that the Guardia Civil has closed all land infrastructure to T4 in orde
118 EUROBUS : The motorway is quite near, maybe just under a mile away.
119 Myt332 : Which would make it a Star Alliance logo jet.
120 JoKeR : Sky also saying that upto 145 dead
121 Mandala499 : The way I saw it on TVE, it's in the former creek on the east of 18R and their cameras are on R2, looking across 18R, then 18L in the background... an
122 797charter : Unfortunately DR (Danish television) has just announced that only 25 has SURVIVED, and that 173 were onboard. RIP.[Edited 2008-08-20 08:03:20]
123 NicoEDDF : German TV is supporting that ...
124 SKAirbus : From the Danish national broadcaster - DR: Translated as "According to the spanish rescue services only 25 out of the 173 people on board have been sa
125 Post contains links Starlionblue : There is probably no definitive answer to this. That is, other factors will probably have a bigger effect. Also some factors affect possibilities in
126 Post contains links Khobar : "Four MD-80 models -- the MD-81, MD-82, MD-83, and MD-88 -- are 147 feet, 10 inches (45.08 meters) long and accommodate a maximum of 172 passengers."
127 B747forever : Wow. Didnt know that. Jeez, this doesn't look good at all.
128 AirbusA346 : If I just heard it right on BBC News someone from El Pais said the aircraft is between two runways. Tom.
129 SpeedbirdEGJJ : EC-HFP mentioned on several forums
130 Post contains links Starlionblue : Saw this now. Aircraft history: http://www.airfleets.net/ficheapp/plane-md80-53148.htm McDonnell Douglas MD-80/90 - MSN 53148 Airline Spanair Registr
131 EUROBUS : Flights operating again out of MAD
132 Post contains links Schoenorama : From watching (spanish) TV, I have the sensation that the subsequent fire after the crash which has set the dry grass around the runway on fire, is ca
133 PlaneHunter : EC-HFP in particular was built in 11/93 - actually the newest MD-80 in JK's fleet. PH
134 Post contains links Airportugal : It is confirmed in a portuguese aviation forum that the aircraft involved is EC-HFP: http://forum.apeapt.com/viewtopic.php?f=14&t=3019&p=14695#p14695
135 Maxisno1 : BBC VIDEO UPDATES- Ground burnt Figures rising Conflicting reports--Fire in left engine on takeoff. Conflicting reports--Pilots attempting to make eme
136 Singapore_Air : SPANAIR - JK 5022 Operational Flight Information Barajas (MAD), Madrid, Spain 13:05 LEFT THE GATE Barajas (MAD), Madrid, Spain 13:42 AIRCRAFT RETURNED
137 Post contains links and images Radarbeam : If it is indeed EC-HFP it is the aitcraft sporting the *A livery View Large View MediumPhoto © Tommy Desmet
138 Post contains links BuyantUkhaa : If that is true, then: McDonnell Douglas MD-80/90 MSN 53148 Plane status : Active Serial number MSN : 53148 - line 2072 First flight : 01 nov 1993 Pl
139 Iberia340600 : Conflicting reports on whether all of Madrid Barajas Airport is closed or just traffic in and out of Terminal T4 to make way for emergency vehicles. F
140 EUROBUS : Those came from Guadalajara, a nearby city. Out of Madrid, over 200 ambulances have been diverted to attend this dreadful accident.
141 AAmd11 : EC-HFP originally delivered to Korean Air in November 1993 - making the aircraft almost 15 years old. If it was indeed HFP.
142 Post contains links and images Starlionblue : All A.net pics of the aircraft: http://www.airliners.net/search/phot...rch=53148/2072&distinct_entry=true Some samples:
143 CURLYHEADBOY : Looks like they have CCTVs pointed on the runway there. Hopefully they have footage of the accident to help the investigators in their job. Thoughts a
144 JJ8080 : CNN says the fire caused by the accident has been controled. Seems to be confirmed 45/46 deads... I'm really sad, seems to be a akward accident. Let's
145 Flighty : The Times of London is now saying 140 dead in a web article by their own reporters. They also said the Spanish cabinet has convened an emergency sessi
146 Asturias : A truly horrible accident.. May the dead rest in peace. asturias
147 FlyboyNK : Update: CNN+ in Spain reporting MD82 aircraft, flight JKK 5022 Madrid to Gran Canaria departed the runway on it's second takeoff attempt. 166 passenge
148 Vfw614 : Surprising that Lufthansa has yet to make an official announcement, given that we are also looking at Lufthansa flight 2554. I do not think that no Lu
149 Maxisno1 : BBC VIDEO UPDATE- • Left short of the runway • One engine caught fire • Green grassy area didn't help fire • Helicopter continuing to drop wat
150 Post contains links and images BuyantUkhaa : Seems to be confirmned by this photo: http://www.elmundo.es/albumes/2008/08/20/tragedia_barajas/index_4.html
151 AirbusA346 : Speaking to emergency services on TVEi. Tom.
152 Cwldude : BBC are claiming the support line is dead! This isn't looking very good?
153 Radarbeam : The photo above does not look good. It looks like the wreckage is scattered over a rather large area, possibly due to the high speed of the aircraft.
154 Post contains links Vfw614 : This probably gives the best idea about the location: http://www.elpais.com/fotogaleria/Ac.../aeropuerto/Barajas/5729-5/elpgal/
155 Ogre727 : El mundo now states 140 dead and 20 some injured.... I am surprised that El pais has kept the number at 40 some...
156 DeC : 8 people confirmed dead and "it could be 50" according to this video, but 8 confirmed dead; 20 people injured. "One of the engines burned, before elev
157 Post contains links Vfw614 : " target=_blank>http://www.elpais.com/fotogaleria/Ac...pgal/ Would that be slightly east to the end of the runway 36L? Like here: Größere Kartenans
158 Mexicana757 : Telemadrid reporting the airport has reopened. And eyewitness are saying the aircraft was about 200 feet in the air then seeing a ball fire and then c
159 Post contains links Keta : El País confirms 45 dead and at least 27 survivors. I fear there will be more deaths announced. CNN+ news (continuous video) just said that the plane
160 Cwldude : BBC are reporting that 45 people are dead, but there are just under 100 unaccounted for so there are fears that that number may rise
161 Post contains links SwissA330 : 150 reported dead in Swiss Newspapers. TV-Report in German: http://www.tagesanzeiger.ch/ausland/...zeugCrash-in-Madrid/story/10298264
162 Mestrugo : According with Telemadrid, a witness in a plane taking off on 36R said the pane did took off after a very long run on the runway, managed to raise abo
163 Schoenorama : Read other posts before speculating: the grass areas around the runway are on fire which explains the different smoke columns. As far as I can ascert
164 AirbusA346 : SAS sending a relief plane to MAD with specially trained personnel according to Sky News. Tom.[Edited 2008-08-20 08:39:18]
165 Starlionblue : I can only assume some a**hole reporter is trying to tie down an operator who should be helping relatives and friends of the victims...
166 Mandala499 : I agree... Unfortunately, it ain't gonna be that pretty in the Rio Jarama creek! Now was it an aborted take off or an RTB?
167 DeC : Looks very bad unfortunately
168 Vfw614 : I think this could be true given that the runway is 4.350m long and with the aircraft coming to a rest at its very end makes it very likely that is w
169 Post contains links Bingo : This new article from spain seems to confirm that claim. http://www.elmundo.es/elmundo/2008/08/20/espana/1219237335.html The headline on the main pag
170 Post contains links Kaitak : 36R is very long (c.11,300') and in normal circumstances, should have been more than sufficient for an MD82, but as reported above, it seems to have c
171 Mestrugo : (!) Telemadrid is displaying airliners.net pictures of the doomed aircraft. Whoa.
172 Post contains links Schoenorama : Europa Press reports 150 deaths citing officials but also stating no figure can be confirmed yet. http://www.europapress.es/ (spanish)
173 Starlionblue : I don't want to give anyone false hopes but this soon after the AF crash in Toronto I believe all the pax were dead. Not saying these guys will all be
174 EUROBUS : Very sad indeed. It was Nov 27th 1983 on a foggy grey day.
175 MIAspotter : I am watching Telecinco right now, they say at least 100 people dead and 44 injured, black boxes have already being found. Truly a sad day for Spanish
176 DeC : I am fearing for the worst of scenarios unfortunately. If what the initial theories and the eyewitness account suggest as a catastrophic failure when
177 Radarbeam : They're probably reading this thread too to keep up with what other news outlet is reporting.
178 E195 : hearing reports, lots of ambulances are moving to hospitals, so lets hope that thats implies good news
179 Vfw614 : There will be a Spanair press conference at 1800hrs in Madrid. Spanair website says details will not be released until all next of kin have been infor
180 EUROBUS : Before speculating and giving away fatal figures that can only make matters worse, Spanish media tend to feed figures bit by bit. This probably is a
181 Vfw614 : Spanair website says 164 passengers and 9 crew, SAS spokesperson on CNN talking about 166 passengers and 6 crew. The latter seems to be more plausible
182 DeC : Just read at pprune.org: "From El Mundo: "Según su relato, tan sólo 28 de los pasajeros del avión pudieron salir con vida y se encuentran en estado
183 Radarbeam : Toronto, not Montreal.
184 BuyantUkhaa : I hope you're right, but to me this rather suggests they're no longer needed - for a bad reason...
185 B747forever : It all began with 7 dead, and now we are up to 150. So sad, so sad.
186 Iberia340600 : CNN+ was just interviewing an emergency services representative and he said that they attended some 29 people and cannot confirm but suggested that th
187 AirbusA346 : Tom.
188 Post contains links DeC : Indeed; here's the site for the updates to come: http://www.spanair.com/web/en-gb/DSite/Last-official-notice/
189 Starlionblue : Oops. Luckily I was still within the edit window. Thanks.
190 Keta : Sad news: a spokesman from SAMUR (an emergency system from Madrid) said they attended about 25 survivors, but all the rest seemed to be dead. Hope he'
191 DeC : Can anyone else confirm this info from pprune?
192 Caribillo :
193 Post contains links DeC : Another video here http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/video/2008/aug/20/madridplanecrash
194 Maxisno1 : Gosh this is a nightmare. I truly hope that number is false. R.I.P. Thoughts with the families, passengers and victims.
195 Ota1 : SAS spokeswoman confirms 166 pax and 6 crew aboard This is really sad!
196 Jmbarros12 : Unfortunately there will be... The crash sight images are horrible... What a sad day for Spain and the aviation community. May those who lost their l
197 Vfw614 : There is an interview with one of the emergency doctors on elmundo.es. He says what he saw was horrific and only 23 passengers were able to leave the
198 E195 : latest on bbc, apparently an airport worker said 'its the closest to hell' and the figures seam to be plausably high truely sad day for us
199 DeC : i.e. what everyone feared....so sad;
200 AirbusA346 : A reporter for El Mundo on Sky News just said 140. Tom.
201 Spacecadet : Crash site images always look horrible. But remember UA 262 - 185 survivors. It's doubtful this plane was traveling any faster, and the crash sequenc
202 EUROBUS : [ As said before. This is the way we deal with this kind of news. The official figure -just given over TVE1 by way of a telex from the Madrid governme
203 Vfw614 : Quote from an eye-witness: "It's a miracle that there are any survivors."
204 Post contains links DeC : You probably mean 232. But then again, if everything with this Spanair accident happened in the way the early reports suggest, then i'd say that sadl
205 E195 : bbc stating death toll rises to more than 100
206 AirbusA346 : Boeing have released a statement. Tom.
207 Caribillo : Rescue team says that the captain and, at least, a flight atendant were died. Co-pilot is missed.
208 Iberia340600 : Apparently the black boxes have already been recuperated.
209 SASDC8 : Dreadful news! My thoughts goes to the victims and their families... RIP
210 OHLHD : RIP all who died today in MAD. A very sad tragedy.
211 EUROBUS : Spanair have launched a flight to Madrid with family members from Gran Canaria, final destination of this JK 5022.
212 FFlyer : Quite a few of all the fatal and non-fatal accidents happen close to the runways, I would think a vast majority. Still we have deep ravines between (a
213 Chi-town : A fox news report had an official on the phone during a live interview saying something about this aircraft being red flagged before it even took off?
214 Vfw614 : Breaking news on CNN: According to rescue workers, 26 survivors. This means 146 fatalities.
215 Mandala499 : The thing is, the airport has it's runway, then it has its clearway/strip... to cater for such excursions. But, Madrid's clearway/strip is over 100m
216 JBirdAV8r : As with most things it's an economic decision. What are the trade-offs? You spend a whole heck of a lot more money to increase the size of a runway s
217 797 : 146?! This is way to many! Que descansen en paz
218 Mika : This is very sad news for sure..i have to say that i'm shaken to hear about his. Lets hope that the initial casualty figures aren't correct.. The fami
219 EUROBUS : Yes. On Spanish A3 TV channel a mother who's daughter was travelling on the JK5022 flight called her after the first approach was aborted. Obviously
220 SKAirbus : My thoughts are with the families of those who perished... may they rest in peace. Unfortunately the SAS group has had a pretty dire safety record in
221 Bingo : Those ravines arent good for airplanes or their passengers. But they are good at keeping runoffs from hitting roads and buildings built carelessly ar
222 Schoenorama : Yes, earlier in this very thread. Scroll up and read.
223 B747forever : What a bad day for Spanish Aviation. So sad that this happened.
224 JJ8080 : Any more clear info about what happened? Don't think it just overshot the runway, it wouldn't cause such distruction. Seems that the MD took-off, clim
225 Bingo : I completely agree with you! Ive been to MAD many times. Especially connecting to AGP to visit the in-laws. Sometimes I swear we are taking the autop
226 PlaneInsomniac : You mean first take-off attempt? This seems to be confirmed by the following information: A scary thought from a passengers point of view. An aborted
227 Post contains links and images R2rho : According to www.elmundo.es , here's the location: At over 4000m, that runway in immense and would have plenty of space for an MD-82 to reject take-of
228 B747forever : As said before the a/c took off, reached a altitude of around 200 feet and then fell again to the ground.
229 SandroZRH : Shocking news! May all those who died RIP I wouldn't jump to conclusions here. It could just aswell have happened to an A320 or a 737NG, and we don't
230 Max777geek : I wouldn't say any distance would suffice. Starting a pure speculation on what went on, I think that - assuming that the new of 200ft elevation befor
231 NEMA : I wish also to add my condolences to the families of those who have perished and i hope for the very best recovery for those who have survived. For th
232 Bingo : Nothing clear yet. Ive been piecing together some of the accounts from various sources in the Spanish press. I've read everything from the left engin
233 Dragon6172 : First off, terrible accident and RIP to all who perished. Now what in the hell is wrong with the reporter in this video: Quote: " At the moment of the
234 AirbusA346 : BBC 1 News were just showing an A320. Tom.
235 Etops1 : i am in mad right now on a layover . worked usairways flt 740 from phl. we landed at 0730 local time . i took a nap when i got to the hotel and woke u
236 Bingo : If you lost an engine on take off I would imagine a roll is possible...
237 EUROBUS : According to this person, yes. But then again, this cannot be confirmed -at least via this lead. I wonder what impact this will have on Spanair's alr
238 Hiflyer : Statement on Accident JK 5022 Routed Madrid – Las Palmas SAS Group can confirm that a Spanair flight JK 5022, was involved in an accident at Madrid
239 JJ8080 : CNN Aviation Correspondent in Madrid says, about MD80s: "Solid technology, but old technology"... As 737NGs and A320s were never involved in accidents
240 Multimark : A very sad day. It will be interesting to hear the details of all this unfold, especially in light of the information that the a/c had returned to the
241 JoKeR : Registration now confirmed, EC-HFP
242 Post contains links Tvnewsguy08 : According to NTSB the plane's tail number is: EC-HFP http://www.airliners.net/photo/Spana...C_&prev_id=1304765&next_id=1223115 and http://www.airliner
243 TheSonntag : Maybe it is time to start a new thread? What a sad accident.
244 JD747 : Terrrible news, and all my prayers and thoughts with the families. I was at the operational office of my flying academy, and one of the instructors to
245 Bagpipes : ABC here in Tampa said 143 killed. RIP
246 Vfw614 : According to German media, the flight had seven passengers with Lufthansa code-share tickets, with four of them "from Germany". Not sure if this means
247 Rogerbcn : Hola! You are luckily wrong. It seems there are 26 confirmed surivors, some say 27. Among them a friend of mine who was on the flight. He is in the In
248 JJ8080 : Breaking news from a spanish reported, as she heard from one of the victims: The plane took of, after climbing something like 500feet, passengers hear
249 EUROBUS : Your friends new birthday: August 20th 2008. Thank goodness there is a happy ending for some.
250 Post contains links PlaneInsomniac : Stern.de reports four German nationals among the fatalities, "according to Spanair": http://www.stern.de/politik/panorama...id-Vier-Deutsche-Toten/63
251 PlanesNTrains : I'm not sure that this is the most appropriate conclusion to be drawn at this time. I'm not even sure what your point is: That SAS "Group" is not per
252 IliriBDL : May they rest in peace. This is very sad news.
253 TristarAtLCA : Very sad news. May they Rest In Peace. Mark
254 DeC : You can't always take for granted what eyewitnesses are suggesting, especially if it came from a shocked passenger right after the crash he / she sur
255 Spacecadet : Other passengers on CNN were quoted as saying the same thing - one said it was a fairly "controlled" landing. Doesn't seem like it nose-dived into th
256 Type-Rated : This has to be one of the most bizarre things ever reported by the media. What was this announcer thinking when he made that statement!
257 JD747 : Very good news Regards Saludos
258 PlaneInsomniac : He may have been trying to express that nobody got off the plane between the first aborted take-off and the accident, when the plane had returned to
259 F9Animal : I don't think it matters in terms of fire when comparing aircraft. For example, an A320 engine fire would block one emergency exit from use. The engi
260 MadameConcorde : I learned about this tragic accident listening to the news on Classic FM (UK) after I got home this evening. I immediately logged on and have just re
261 HangarRat : I don't think you can infer anything of the sort from that kind of statement. It's true that the MD80 series is old -- it's based on a design that fi
262 Oykie : What a terrible accident. This was a really bad hit for the already (financially) troubled Spanair. It will be interesting to see what the causes of t
263 JJ8080 : Well that's the best info we can have right now, someone who was actully in the accident. That's why I don't call myself neither a Reporter, Aviation
264 BuyantUkhaa : If you lose the left engine, a roll to the right would be unlikely though... unless they took off from 36R after all, but that seems not to be the ca
265 Rogerbcn : Hola! Thanks for your messages of support. I will transmit them to him at earliest opportunity. I am in BCN right now, flying to ZRH and BUD tomorrow,
266 Mandala499 : It must be Richard Quest's comments... who's the CNN aviation and business correspondent, and... he's in London I think... He was question by the anc
267 Sketty222 : SKY news stating that 43 confirmed dead but upto 146 could have died. My codolences go out to the victims and their families. Lets hope we find out wh
268 PlaneInsomniac : According to several media reports and eyewitness(es), the plane was in controlled flight even after the engine malfunction, and they were apparently
269 DeC : That's the best thing you can do my friend and most appropriate of times to be with your friend.
270 F.pier : Condolences to all people involved and a prayer for all people died in this tragic accident.
271 GSPSPOT : What a tragedy. God bless the souls of all those involved.
272 HangarRat : Agreed. The only account of an event considered trustworthy enough to be admitted as evidence in court is that of a firsthand witness. However, take
273 Golftango : CNN has confirmed 90 dead. RIP
274 BOAC911 : I heard on CNN en Español that it was 36 L.
275 Mika : Considering the large fire (and reports of several fires?), could it be possible that the left engine separated completely from the A/C? That would a
276 BOAC911 : I heard on CNN en Español that it was 36 L.
277 JoKeR : Confirmation now that only 27 people have survived This is apparently the final, official tally. Spain has declared three days of national morning. Co
278 Avek00 : Less to do with maturity than the fact that they have excellent legal counsel who are giving solid advice on ways for SAS to mitigate its potential f
279 PlaneInsomniac : There may be some truth in this statement, but it still is a very, very cynical thing to say.
280 TwinOtter4Ever : RIP to all those in the crash and condolences to the families and friends and to the airline personel. Just a bit of speculation, but could this kind
281 Basefly : R.I.P.... How truely sad..... I am Flying to Madrid airport tommorow in what should have been an happy company trip..... Seems like its going to be al
282 Cricket : R.I.P to those who died and hopefully the investigators will get to the bottom of this soon.
283 Post contains images Viscount724 : DL had an uncontained failure on an MD-88 resulting in an aborted takeoff at PNS in 1996. Two passengers seated adjacent to the engine were killed by
284 Post contains links Mika : http://www.aftonbladet.se/nyheter/article3142937.ab Swedish media reports that two people onboard the flight were Swedish (one reported to be hospital
285 Keta : I'd rather wait until investigators report the final causes of the accident, based on information from pieces and black boxes.
286 Lightsaber : R.I.P to all who died. May the injuries heal quickly. As to a quick investigation, I hope they find a root cause quick; do not be surprised if they t
287 Avek00 : As someone who is quite familiar with many of the legal aspects behind airline disaster planning, and is personally acquainted with some of the premi
288 Alessandro : Swedish media claim 4 Germans and 2 Swedes onboard, other nationalities, Danish, Norwegian and Spanish. One Swedish lady reported to be in hospital.
289 Basefly : Seems like it went tech prior to scheduled takeoff...... If true seems like somebody made a horrible call......
290 CURLYHEADBOY : Instinctively, I would say that no way an uncontained engine failure could cause direct damage to the other engine on an Md80 but, after seeing that
291 KL911 : You are right, but info is info. Someone else might find it usefull. According to a Dutch minister there is at least one, but maybe more, Dutch perso
292 LesMainwaring : You've just confirmed the old adage about what they say when one does assume - at least half-way
293 Mika : My thought exactly..i wouldnt want to be in his or her shoes. Hopefully it is concluded that this was beyond anyone's control, but rather a chain of
294 Boeing747_600 : Well it would be a yaw induced roll. The yaw occurs first putting the Opposite-to-yaw-side wing upstream of the other wing and generating more lift w
295 Sketty222 : Some guy on Sky news now speculating that it could have been a multiple bird strike
296 Mika : That sounds far-fetched if anything ever was.
297 KL911 : True, but not if the explosion in the engine has damaged hydraulics and other stuff.
298 Post contains links Keta : Oh look at this (in Spanish): http://www.elpais.com/articulo/espan...elpepuesp/20080820elpepunac_18/Tes If you scroll down, you'll see a part titled "
299 ZWZWUnited : My condolences to Spanair and their passengers, not only as a Star Alliance partner, but also as a valued asset and fabulous Iberian carrier. This is
300 PlaneInsomniac : I do not doubt your expertise. At the very least, however, I would consider it cynical to point out that fact so strongly at this moment. Also, let's
301 Keta : Some good news among all this tragedy: the two babies are alive, tv channel "Cuatro" reports.[Edited 2008-08-20 12:10:51]
302 EA772LR : My thoughts and prayers to the victims and their loved ones. This is a terrible day for so many.
303 ScrubbsYWG : You have piqued my curiousity here... How do you think(or have heard) airline's plans in these kinds of events have changed with the mass use of the
304 AutoThrust : Very horrible tragedy and a sad day for spanish aviation. My thoughts are with the families and survivors. May the victims rest in peace.
305 Boeing747_600 : While this is pure speculation on my part, Its conceivable that if an explosion did occur at about 500 ft, it may have put the plane into an abnormal
306 Legacytravel : After reading some initial reports tis crash sound eerily similar to the NWA crash in DTW a few years ago. The plane struggled to gain altitude and th
307 KL773ER : This is extremely sad news in every aspect. My thoughts and prayers go out to all victims and their affected families. -KL
308 NW747-400 : A shot in the dark based on what I have seen so far... This is all speculation of course, and no one knows the facts until the investigators release t
309 SwissA330 : Sergio Allart, director comercial de Spainair, ha comparecido en rueda de prensa desde un hotel madrileño, para dar los primeros datos por parte de
310 Post contains links Kaitak : As a lawyer myself (although not involved in litigation or aircraft related issues), this interests me too. Certainly, it's only natural that airline
311 PlanesNTrains : While the pieces seem like they would fit together very conveniently, we don't know what the reason was for the return to the gate, other than it was
312 HangarRat : Whether or not there's genuine compassion involved here, it's most likely part of the airline's predetermined disaster response plan to send resource
313 Boeing747_600 : And when you combine this with the deep-stall scenario I described in Reply 305, the situation looks almost hopeless.
314 Post contains links DeC : Article with lots of photos http://news.yahoo.com/nphotos/Madrid...1/2c85f5b30c2d4d25bc69b7f87af7de65
315 PlanesNTrains : At a time like this, you would hope that the folks in charge are managing the situation appropriately for all parties involved, and not just emotiona
316 Mika : Is it only me who finds it a little distasteful to discuss economic loss and liability when 150 people have died in this tragedy today?
317 OA260 : Totally agree. I only heard about it an hour ago as I was out all day away from any media .Such a shock. My heart goes out to the Spanish people and
318 DeC : I think so yes; you see, it's logical that we are all deeply affected mostly and primarily by the loss of human lives; apart that though, and since t
319 DeC : Also, very interesting info from pprune.org
320 HangarRat : The discussion of liability grew out of a reader's cynical remark that a support flight was dispatched only as a stopgap against further liability. I
321 Gatorman96 : Judging by the previous photos, the fire rapidly spread due the long dry grass (and 4 kt winds) that is in and around the airport. But this early int
322 Mika : Of course the economical and legal side has everything to do with an air disaster (like the technical part that we're discussing to length everytime
323 USAFDO : Airport Survillance Cameras: With all the security camers trypically around airports, does anyone think we will see live footage of the aircraft actua
324 PlaneInsomniac : The early footage of the smoke was recorded by a terminal surveillance camera, as far as I know. So there is a realistic chance. On the other hand, i
325 Revelation : Perhaps, but it is part of the story unfolding today. The words and actions of Spanair and SAS are being driven by such concerns.
326 Spacecadet : Right on. I've felt the same way in some of these threads but have never been able to put it so well. Distasteful, yes... but you can be sure that th
327 CURLYHEADBOY : I think there is a good chance some cam recorded video of the tragic event or at least part of it, so maybe we're gonna see it someday. But, most imp
328 Post contains links Viscount724 : The probable cause of the NW crash was taking off with the flaps fully retracted. http://aviation-safety.net/database/record.php?id=19870816-2 There'
329 Pawsleykat : My friend just text me to tell me about it and I'm watching it on Sky News now, who are showing an interview with a firefighter who was at the scene.
330 DeC : I don't think that the nature of this plane crash (location, eye-witnesses, fdr and cvr recovered, history before the crash, survivors) make it a har
331 Ota1 : Latest update from TVE: 152 fatalities, 19 survivers (80% of them in very critical condition) My thoughts are with the victims and their families, Ind
332 Bochora : Tragic. Not what aviation needs.
333 DeC : Wow, that's very bad!
334 Avek00 : That's a fair point and all well and good for us as mere "observers", but we ought not think, even for a moment, that the potential liability of the
335 Avek00 : Darn right there is. You better believe that are numerous conference calls going on right now between, at minimum, the various lawyers and law firms
336 IrishMD11 : As a regular flyer I am of course distraught to learn of such a tragedy that happened today. I am familiar with Barajas, but also, amongst others, wit
337 LAXAgent : little bit of topic this monday August 18, 2008 I was on flight 417 that left 0800 i would like to to know if it was same acft. If gives me the chill
338 Ota1 : Absolutely!!! And I'm afraid it gets even worse as TVE reports: - all crew members dead - great number of victims are children as are three of the su
339 F9Animal : You would be thinking of NW 255, that crashed in 87. The flight crew failed to set the flaps and slats. This crash today sounds like some issue with
340 PlaneInsomniac : Absolutely terrible. If true, one of the worst European aviation disasters in a very long time (excluding the Helios crash).
341 Airbuster : may they all RIP, i was schocked to read this just now getting back from my own day of flying with a Spanish captain from Madrid! I wish all the good
342 Post contains links A340Spotter : My condolences to all parties involved directly and indirectly with this tragedy. This is certainly a sad day for aviation. I do want to pass along th
343 GrahamHill : Magdalena Alvarez, the minister of Public Works in Spain, said there were 153 fatalities and 19 wounded. Condolences to families and friends.
344 TR763 : It seems that you didn´t remember of the TAM A320 crash in July, 2007, in CGH. An airport surrounded by buildings and avenues...200 lives were lost.
345 Dragon6172 : If it did in fact return to the stand initially for an engine problem, I wonder if it is a FOD issue. Something get left in the intake, or came loose
346 Smeg : One question that I think needs to be answered........ All of the news agencies are saying that the aircraft had already "aborted" one takeoff. Do we
347 Post contains links Ota1 : The passenger manifest has just been released at www.spanair.com
348 Steve7E7 : A terrible,terrible tragedy. Our thoughts tonight should not be of speculation, there is time enough for that in the coming weeks and months. Instead
349 Heavierthanair : G'day While i do not contest the seriousness of this accident and the individual tragedies this definitely has caused we have to put all this in prope
350 Richierich : Just speculation of course, but does anybody know what would have happened had the PNS uncontained engine failure happened as the plane left the grou
351 Post contains links 1821 : http://news.ninemsn.com.au/article.aspx?id=618207
352 FrmrCAPCADET : Although I must confess I variously get annoyed or chuckles at some of what I read
353 EUROBUS : Sorry, but I really do not think this is comparable. It affects a great number of people, families, relatives, in many ways. It is considered a matte
354 Post contains links OA260 : http://www.spanair.com/web/en-gb/DSite/Listing-of-passengers/ Quite alot of children, very sad.
355 Post contains links OA260 : The majority of those aboard were Spanish. Lufthansa said tonight seven passengers aboard the flight had Lufthansa tickets. Four of them were Germans,
356 EUROBUS : Sorry if it has been said before but apparently over 40 members of Spanair staff are voluntarily assisting the families. I think this is plausible. Th
357 Post contains links Ota1 : Yes, very very sad. In addition to that LH stated they'd send a team of psychological experts to Madrid in order to support JK's team. As sad as all
358 PlaneInsomniac : Cannot be too long before somebody paints this, too, as a cold, calculating measure to avert additional litigation and financial damage from the airl
359 Post contains links Srbmod : With this thread reaching well over 350 posts, a new thread has been started to discuss this topic. Please continue the discussion here: http://www.ai
360 Mika : That passenger manifest is very sad reading..a number of whole families/relatives on there if you read all the names. May the ones perished rest in pe
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