Steve7E7 From United Kingdom (England), joined May 2004, 435 posts, RR: 58 Reply 1, posted (1 year 3 months 2 weeks 6 days 22 hours ago) and read 63805 times:
According to BBC news, quoting official Spanish sources, the death toll now stands at 153.
B707forever From United States, joined Dec 2007, 280 posts, RR: 0 Reply 4, posted (1 year 3 months 2 weeks 6 days 22 hours ago) and read 63380 times:
Very very sad indeed. To think 153 gone and more likely if the injuries are as serious, which how can they not be, as is suspected.
I'm wondering, along with many others, if Barajas has a camera fixed on the runway that can begin to give officials greater insight into what happened here. It's going to be very interesting to see what the return to the gate before the take-off was all about.
My heart is heavy when I hear news like this today - may the aggrieved find comfort from those around them and those who are gone rest in peace.
PlaneInsomniac From Canada, joined Nov 2007, 500 posts, RR: 0 Reply 5, posted (1 year 3 months 2 weeks 6 days 22 hours ago) and read 63417 times:
Summary of consistent eyewitness and media reports according to Spiegel Online:
"Spanair flight JK 5022 was accelerating on the runway of the Madrid airport, the left engine of the MD-82 plane caught fire, the pilot pulled the jet up, however the wing touched the ground, the plane crashed into a ravine to the right of the runway - and exploded in a huge ball of fire."
They also say "that the plane departed from the gate at Terminal 4 at 13:05 for the first time. However, at 13:42 it returned to the gate, and then finally returned to the runway for take-off at ca. 14:25."
Shocking photos, and extremely graphic captions in Spanish. Rescue workers say it is a miracle that anybody has survived. Judging from the images, not an exaggeration.
RoseFlyer From United States, joined Feb 2004, 5633 posts, RR: 27 Reply 10, posted (1 year 3 months 2 weeks 6 days 21 hours ago) and read 62828 times:
Quoting EnglishatSAS (Reply 9): Monumental engine failure. Hydraulics? Or both?
A single engine failure should not be able to take out the hydraulics completely. If it took out part of the horizontal or vertical fin, then yes that could cause a loss of control. There are both engine and electric pumps for hydraulics and there are two systems that are completely independent. An engine failure will not take more than one out, unless it sent debris that ruptured lines in other parts of the airplane.
My job is to make it so your flight is not delayed. Come fly the friendly skies!
Nautilusgr From Greece, joined Sep 2006, 48 posts, RR: 0 Reply 12, posted (1 year 3 months 2 weeks 6 days 21 hours ago) and read 62628 times:
Quoting RoseFlyer (Reply 10): An engine failure will not take more than one out, unless it sent debris that ruptured lines in other parts of the airplane.
Exactly.
Guys, an engine fire cannot bring an aircraft down so fast. This aircraft hardly left the airport fence!
It must have been a failure that -in some way- caused extensive damage to the plane.
CURLYHEADBOY From Italy, joined Feb 2005, 899 posts, RR: 2 Reply 13, posted (1 year 3 months 2 weeks 6 days 21 hours ago) and read 62590 times:
Quoting Nautilusgr (Reply 12): Quoting RoseFlyer (Reply 10):
An engine failure will not take more than one out, unless it sent debris that ruptured lines in other parts of the airplane.
Exactly.
Guys, an engine fire cannot bring an aircraft down so fast. This aircraft hardly left the airport fence!
It must have been a failure that -in some way- caused extensive damage to the plane.
Caution mate, if not contained, an engine failure can be very nasty, I know everybody wishes a quick answer, but we need to patiently wait for more evidence to be released.
If God had wanted men to fly he would have given them more money...
NADC10Fan From United States, joined May 2005, 144 posts, RR: 5 Reply 14, posted (1 year 3 months 2 weeks 6 days 21 hours ago) and read 62556 times:
Quoting Nautilusgr (Reply 12): Exactly.
Guys, an engine fire cannot bring an aircraft down so fast. This aircraft hardly left the airport fence!
It must have been a failure that -in some way- caused extensive damage to the plane.
This is what I'm curious about.
I heard some talk on the subject in the afternoon, and one was from a MD-experienced pilot who suggested that what might have happened was an uncontained failure of the engine which exited on the cabin side. He said he spoke from personal experience - luckily the failure exited outboard of the fuselage - but still. I can't help but think that such a thing - IF it happened - would create circumstances to bring the aircraft down.
Now, obviously, we don't KNOW this is what happened, and only reports will tell the tale. But ... it strikes me as altogether possible. Thoughts/concerns/comments?
Okie73 From United States, joined Mar 2006, 408 posts, RR: 0 Reply 15, posted (1 year 3 months 2 weeks 6 days 21 hours ago) and read 62407 times:
Quoting EnglishatSAS (Reply 9): I seems like fan failure. Possibly causing hydraulic damage, knocking the flight out.
The MD-80 needs no hydraulics to keep flying. All the flight controls are cables and pulleys. The rudder has a hydraulic assist, but works just fine with no hydraulics. The gear can free fall down, and the aircraft can be landed with no flaps and slats.
I don't know what caused this accident, but it was not a loss or hydraulics.
CURLYHEADBOY From Italy, joined Feb 2005, 899 posts, RR: 2 Reply 16, posted (1 year 3 months 2 weeks 6 days 21 hours ago) and read 62401 times:
Quoting NADC10Fan (Reply 14): Now, obviously, we don't KNOW this is what happened, and only reports will tell the tale. But ... it strikes me as altogether possible. Thoughts/concerns/comments?
A member in the first part of the thread pointed out that a sudden and complete loss of thrust on one engine at T/O power, can put the pilot in a tricky situation, even without additional damage and even if pilots are trained for such events during their sim time.
If God had wanted men to fly he would have given them more money...
PlaneWasted From Sweden, joined Jan 2008, 325 posts, RR: 0 Reply 17, posted (1 year 3 months 2 weeks 6 days 21 hours ago) and read 62530 times:
The Swedish paper "Dagens Nyheter" has now posted an article titled. "the accident plane type the md-82". with heading "the black history of the accident plane type md-82".
Then they list all md-82 accidents. 1 of 9 is caused by technical problems.
Nautilusgr From Greece, joined Sep 2006, 48 posts, RR: 0 Reply 18, posted (1 year 3 months 2 weeks 6 days 21 hours ago) and read 62272 times:
According to a previous post, the aircraft left the gate and returned again for an inspection. The crew probably noticed something abnormal,but this might well be totally irrelevant. I have the feeling that the investigators will have a good starting point.
NADC10Fan From United States, joined May 2005, 144 posts, RR: 5 Reply 20, posted (1 year 3 months 2 weeks 6 days 21 hours ago) and read 62198 times:
Quoting CURLYHEADBOY (Reply 16): A member in the first part of the thread pointed out that a sudden and complete loss of thrust on one engine at T/O power, can put the pilot in a tricky situation, even without additional damage and even if pilots are trained for such events during their sim time.
Very true, CHB. Just another thing we simply don't know for sure.
I'm curious for what I've heard in unconfirmed reports that the plane's engine was seen either trailing smoke or bursting in smoke at or about V1/VR. Indeed, mention was made of a picture of the same.
Perhaps if such things DO exist / were seen, they provide additional clues.
GOwithCO332 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR: Reply 21, posted (1 year 3 months 2 weeks 6 days 21 hours ago) and read 62117 times:
Wow, this is quite a tragic incident. I really do mourn those who were lost, but as someone once told me, it is so hard to tangibly mourn when there are so many things that happen which are bad and this happened so far away from me. However, although I have not been to Barajas before, I have been on an MD-82, a plane that I really do not like, and I just was imaging me being in that situation, where on take off, I had the whole rest of my life and once that engine broke, I had maybe...thirty seconds or a minute?
I used to have a very big fear of flying and now, it has really gone away, but accidents like these just make me stray a little for my huge love for all things pertaining to airlines or planes.
Starlionblue From Greenland, joined Feb 2004, 13598 posts, RR: 68 Reply 24, posted (1 year 3 months 2 weeks 6 days 20 hours ago) and read 61532 times:
Quoting CURLYHEADBOY (Reply 16): A member in the first part of the thread pointed out that a sudden and complete loss of thrust on one engine at T/O power, can put the pilot in a tricky situation, even without additional damage and even if pilots are trained for such events during their sim time.
Indeed. An engine failure soon after V1 is perhaps the worst case scenario you can imagine. For this very reason, pilots drill in it mercilessly. Of course the situation is tricky but pilots should have seen it in the sim many times. Also, the aircraft is designed around dealing with this scenario.
Having said that, it is not a good situation and just because the pilots have trained for it does not make it risk free. Small margins.
Tact Is For People Who Aren't Witty Enough To Be Sarcastic
How can they do something that vile?! I understand their need for newsworthy material, but trying to falsify images like this is, to say the least, unethical.
Not even the paint scheme of the aircraft matches with the doomed one.
26 UltimateDelta: Looks grim. Amazing that they had to bring helicopters to fight the fire, and amazing that they found survivors. My condolences over the web go to the
27 VHECA: To those who lost their lives...May they rest in peace; To those who lost their loved ones...My thougths and prayers are with you; To those who luckil
28 MIAMIx707: ugh why do these things have to happen? MAD and surrounding areas hasn't had a notorious fatal crash since the Avianca 747 right? I'd like to see vide
29 BristolFlyer: Typical sensationalist BS from that paper - what a disgrace. RIP PS - I just noticed their headline - can they be any more dramatic? PPS BTW I have p
30 Aviateur: Who knows, at this point. I've been helping the AP with their European coverage of the incident. Here is my statement thus far.... At least 150 people
31 Gonzalo: I just don't have words...all i can say for now is God bless all the victims and the families involved in this tragedy. G.
32 Starlionblue: One pic here: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/worl...-bursts-flames-Spanish-runway.html shows tire marks leaving the runway. Interesting...
33 DeC: Don't bother mate, i did the same too and in a very hostile manner i admit, but nothing less of that is what they deserve. What amazes me with those
34 Okie73: this is not always true, at least according to regulations in the U.S. There is adequate stopping distance for an abort prior to V1. Past V1 and prio
35 DeC: Very interesting indeed; If you combine it with some info (supposedly via people who have been there on the scene) i read over at pprune.org suggesti
36 Aviateur: Yeah, you're right, obviously. I went and changed "liftoff" to "V1" (see my edited post above.) I was trying to keep it simple for the layperson... b
37 Aviator86: What a terrible tragedy. R.I.P. My condolences to the families and those affected.
38 LTBEWR: First of all my condolences to those that lost family members and friends in this crash and hope for the survivors. One point I would like to bring up
39 JBirdAV8r: I'm having a bit of trouble wrapping my head around the scale of that image, but to me it looks like tire marks from a dually truck. The paved area i
40 AutoThrust: Just some speculations from my side: I know that Airbus(guess Boeing to) built in into the A320 design a crush-collapsible zone. Would that maybe soft
41 CAL764: ...Or landing for that matter; the BA incident made quite the headline not too long ago.
42 Maxisno1: Yes. R.I.P Only a few hours ago I was posting 7 dead. I am at a total loss for words. I shed a tear or two just thinking about it.
43 SXDFC: RIP to those who died in this crash, may they rest in peace for eternity. I do have a question, is this the first crash, accident,etc of an a/c with t
44 USXguy: the pic above is not an MD 80 gear set... they're too close. Plus the way carbon brakes work, along with tire tread, there would be more solid rubber
45 Starlionblue: Indeed. I didn't want to add any more comment apart from "interesting". Well, that depends on the scale of the picture.
46 SAS330GOT: Very interesting and will probably be fuel on the fire for people that like to speculate.. (like me) I would be very worried if a pilot would use thr
47 WunalaYann: Thank you for the great post - even I think I understood! But I am curious about the thrust redirection bit - considering the MAD tragedy occurred at
48 A340Spotter: Yes. There's only been a few accidents where a special colored airplane has crashed: Singapore's 747-400 at TPE (Tropical megatop) TAM's Fokker 100 a
49 1821: " O theos mazi tous " as we say back home ( God be with them ) . On another note i really do hope that the NTSB is allowed to investigate this tragedy
50 Bingo: Im 110% those werent caused by this airplane. I know those Mad Dogs are cramped but not that cramped...those marks are too close to be a plane.
51 Seafleet: http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worl...aht-went-wong---a-pilots-view.html I am forwarding a link that I dont think has been included in this discussio
52 Eghansen: According to the eyewitness reports the airplane had lifted off the runway when the engine caught fire and it crashed. From CNN: "She said they could
53 Zeke: Those marks look like what you see at just about every airport where trucks have been used for pavement repair. To me that looks like a normal marks
54 Gonzalo: You read my mind about this...i was wondering how close to MTOW this aircraft was at the moment of the engine fails, and what kind of effects ( such
55 BOAC911: ABC and CBS? US media is not inflallible. Many of these reports are very preliminary, based on witnesses that all believe they saw "something" Very l
56 Eghansen: I was not worrying about the final investigation of the accident. I was only discussing whether the aircraft ran off the runway or had become airborn
57 StasisLAX: A TimesOnline article is stating that "Pilots at Spanair had threatened to go on strike only an hour before yesterday’s crash." The article continue
58 Larshjort: ay they ret in peace I wouldn't want to be that guy, even if they find that he had nothing to do with it /Lars
59 Spacecadet: It shouldn't cause anything that's uncontrollable. In the US, at least, no commercial airplane is allowed to take off under FAR regulations in such a
60 Mandala499: How 26 people got out alive is amazing... Anyway, seeing the wreck, it now looks like a 36R departure got airborne and veer to the left? But then, we
61 HT: Any new information about the friend of A.netter "Rogerbcn" who was retrieved injured from this accident ? Last indications were that he was in stable
62 Mandala499: Yes, but the information as to the specifics of the accident is still rather diverse. If the engine fire & explosion is to be deemed true, then the n
63 Rogerbcn: Hola! I have just got up. My MAD friends, who visited him yesterday at the hospital, confirmed that he has a lot of broken bones, he had surgery on hi
64 HT: This positively sounds like injuries that can be cured. All the best to him. de nada -HT
65 Dc9northwest: Is this plausible (if departed from 36L): The aircraft took-off, fire to the left engine. Pilots try to land, knowing there's enough runway left; depl
66 Starlionblue: Spacecadet has it right. Certification requirements in Europe and the US are not identical, but broadly similar. Aircraft must be able to handle comp
67 Irelayer: This is very sad news. My heart goes out to the families of those who were lost. May they rest in peace. -IR[Edited 2008-08-20 22:41:27]
68 Platinumfoota: They have a recreation of the incident here... http://www.elmundo.es/elmundo/2008/graficos/ago/s3/t4_spanair.html Click on Comenzar to start and right
69 Smeg: OK, it has been bothering me that the left engined failed, and they veered off to the right. I have a strange question. Assuming they got airborne, an
70 Baw716: I've been watching the forum at pprune.org and the pilots on that forum all seem to agree that an engine out at rotation can be difficult, but all st
71 TheMirror: Incredibly sad but at least it was quick. Those of us on the passenger side of things really fear incidents like this, as you all in the industry do,
72 BAW716: Indeed, there are some very interesting questions. What we believe we know: a) port engine fire during takeoff roll....cause unknown, but if uncontai
73 Kiwiandrew: apologies if this has been posted before - but I found the interview in the following link to be very interesting and a strong contrast to the mainstr
74 Mandala499: Add Silk Air and Adam Air to that list. --- If the Elmundo version is true, then we can assume the crew overcorrected or had difficulties maintaining
75 Okay: First of all I wanna send my condolences to the ones who are being affected by this horrible accident and may the ones who were deceased rest in peace
76 Ajd1992: It was 29c, it was in the METAR in the first thread. The airport elevation is 2000ft/610m. R.I.P.
77 OA260: I didn't realise it was a Star scheme A/C until I saw the day light pictures this morning. Apparently there was a one hour delay due to problem with
78 EUROBUS: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/home/index.html Have some simply forgotten the code of ethics? ...or it simply is not 'dramatic enough' to reduce your duty
79 Starlionblue: Could be an ethnically Finnish woman with Swedish citizenship. Or a Finnish Swede (Finlandssvensk).
80 Jorge1812: Normally when such accidents happen the media reports about the last transmission from the cockpit, but I didn't heard/read anything. - No transmisson
81 Starlionblue: The last transmission presumably was a confirmation of take-off clearance. Given the presumed time scales in this accident, I doubt the pilots would
82 OA260: Strike threat hour before take-off By Carl Mortished Thursday August 21 2008 Pilots at Spanair had threatened to go on strike only an hour before yest
83 BMIFlyer: So Horrific May all those who perished RIP. Lee
84 DeC: Funny thing is that if you go over at http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/worl...-ripped-apart-runway-fireball.html and press VIEW ALL under the comments
85 OA260: A few more articles: The Investigation: A systems failure – or did pilots panic? http://www.independent.ie/world-news...h-or-did-pilots-panic-146042
86 TropicalSQ744: RIP to those who died I'm just being an arm chair crash investigator here, but, could it be that the pilot overcorrected when applying the right rudde
87 Haggis79: German media reports that a family from Bavaria had checked-in for the LH code-share.... they can't say for sure if they were indeed on board. Now I'm
88 Starlionblue: I couldn't make myself read through all that. I was getting annoyed at all the morons with an opinion and no facts. And to think we sometimes complai
89 Starlionblue: Anything is possible. However loss of thrust is practiced regularly in the sim. There should not be any hesitation there. The engines close to the ce
90 DeC: Indeed, asymmetric thrust also appears very possible too and it's been discussed. Interesting too is what has also popped up over at pprune as a poss
91 Jorge1812: Correct, the airline for sure has to know how many people are on board at least for the Weight and Balance calculations. n-TV reporters already stand
92 Haggis79: certainly a good idea.... although I somehow had preferred they wouldn't have published the passenger list at all to start with...
94 Teme82: She is a Finn living in Sweden and she might have Swedish citizenship, that's not clear yet.
95 OA260: True. The list looked like it had been copied from the real list hence the ''chd'' code and format of the order of the names. The other side of the c
96 EUROBUS: I have translated the follwing article out of the El Mundo newspaper as I believe it may be of general interest. This is the link: http://www.elmundo.
97 Ferengi80: I have been interested to read the varying views on here about what could have happened, and want to ask a question with regard to the turn to the rig
98 Starlionblue: Interesting angle. Certainly any action has an equal and opposite reaction, but typically you wouldn't see quite that level of force, especially dire
99 Vfw614: Interestingly enough, I have seen very little discussion so far about the question whether the crash would have been less catastrophic if the area to
100 Brad49: This is unacceptable. I wrote a long email to the editor of this outlet and It seems that the offending image has been removed. I find it amazing tha
101 Vfw614: El Mundo, by the way, reports that most of the survivors where seated in rows 14 to 17.
102 Starlionblue: Well, those guys are laughing all the way to the bank. Any publicity is good publicity. My father was a (non tabloid) journalist for 40 years. Did he
103 DeC: I also contacted the author of the original photograph last night and the hosting website and they responded that they would take action immediately.
104 DeC: Madrid plane crash survivors tell of 'miracle' "Astonishing stories have been told by two of the only nineteen survivors of Wednesday's air crash at M
105 Glidepath73: After all this vague eyewitness reports: Are there maybe pilots which saw the accident, from a/c's waiting for take off behind the Spanair MD82? Maybe
106 DeC: I also read over at pprune, this very interesting piece of info ; if correct..
107 1stfl94: My condolences to the family of all those who died and lets hope the injured make a full recovery. Quite a scary accident for me personally because my
108 Voodoo: Looking at the Madrid runway/terminal layout: (click on photo from: ) http://www.elmundo.es/elmundo/2008/graficos/ago/s3/t4_spanair.html am I the only
109 DeC: Someone over pprune suggested yesterday that planes in MAD always take-off in directions away from the terminals.
110 ThaiA345: Is this the first star alliance livery jet from any star alliance airline to suffer a crash? Will Star Alliance still continue the paint scheme or per
111 CptRegionalJet: There are no take offs/published departures in direction to the terminals. I's either 33L/R for landing and 36L/R for T/O or 18L/R for landing and 15
112 Spacecadet: Is this possible on an MD-80? I've never heard of it happening, even in an uncontained engine failure. There is obviously one or more pieces to this
113 DeC: Interesting bit of news, Sky News are reporting that the aircraft experienced "overheating in the air intake valve".
114 Cumulus: Just read that, how would that cause a incident like this? No conjecture please!
116 EUROBUS: This has been brought to attention many times by Sepla members the pilots union. Flights do not takeoff in 'opposite direction', understanding you me
117 Jmbarros12: Actually the crash at MAD is very similar to JJ´s F-100 crash at CGH in 1997. Both aircrafts had tail engines and both of them had problems in one o
118 PanHAM: The relatives have been informed meanwhile and police has arranged that DNA has been taken from the families house in Bavaria. If that would happen t
119 JBirdAV8r: Maybe it's just splitting hairs but IIRC the MD-80 is almost strictly a "cable-and-pulley" type airplane which uses servo tabs to move the primary co
120 Thom@s: Terrible disaster this. I do have two questions; 1) It appears the plane was full, yet stories keep coming in about people who didn't make the fatal f
121 HangarRat: No to doubt your expertise, but I've see a couple of people remark on the comparitive sizes of the MD80 and 737's vertical fins. Does the fact that t
122 HT: EC-HFP See reply #138 in the following thread for history of the a/c http://www.airliners.net/aviation-fo...eneral_aviation/read.main/4113680/ -HT
123 Sketty222: I was just thinking this as well. Surely there were pilots heading out to that runway that would have seen something. What about ATC? At pretty much
124 SQ452: Special Livery aircraft...(Spanair Star Alliance colors)...It really has been rough for special livery aircraft, thinking SQ006 in TPE in the "tropica
125 Starlionblue: That's why I said it was totally unfounded speculation in the rest of my post. I hardly think this is likely. Well, the MD-80 empennage is actually c
126 AG92: Well, this will be my first post, and initially I thought it was ok you know, nothing wrong, a plane has overran the runway shouldn't be any loss of l
127 AustrianZRH: Actually the JK website states the seat count on their MD-82 as 170. So if there were 171 or 172 people on board, including 2 infants without a seat
128 RayChuang: What I'm about to say is high speculative, but I wonder did the flight crew properly control the plane with one engine out? Remember, we're talking an
129 DeC: This article here has lots of info although i feel baffled and can't understand what they mean exactly with mentions of gust winds on the runway that
130 Mrocktor: Not enough data to work with, at best we can get knowledgeable speculation I find it highly unlikely (though possible) that the return would be due t
131 CURLYHEADBOY: A Spanair spokesman reportedly stated that a warning from a "heat sensor in the engine inlet" prompted the pilots to return to the gate and get it ins
132 727forever: Well said. Thanks for sharing. As for questions regarding controls of an MD-80. Most controls are servo tabs as a primary. This means that control ca
133 DeC: Like the Helios pilots "disabled" the low pressurization warning and everything was ok after that Of course it was totally different and they were
134 Sevenforeseven: I have nothing more to say other than R.I.P for the passengers that died.
135 HangarRat: Thanks for the feedback. Is it accurate to say the center of yaw is the same as the center of lift?
136 BOAC911: Red lights or warnings, in most cases, are correct, i.e. warranted. The overriding question should be: Was the source of the problem correctly identi
137 AmricanShamrok: Ditto. The poor families of these victims must be going through hell. RIP.
138 Boeing747_600: I raised this point earlier in Reply 305 of the previous thread on the topic. An explosion in one of the engines could have created a nose high attit
139 YYZYYT: I recall reading in one of the many reports linked to this thread that the body of the captian has been identified. No mention as to the FO. [Edited
140 Boeing747_600: Then SpanAir could (and should) be sued to the point of bankruptcy. No carrier that irresponsible should be allowed to operate, if what you said happ
141 Acelanzarote: Does anyone know what has happened with the staff that looked at the plane when it returned to the gate for attention? Whether they are at fault or no
142 Vfw614: As mentioned earlier, all survivors apparently were seated between rows 14 and 17. So very unlikely that any crewmember has survived.
143 APChigoSea: It can be safely assumed that they have already been interviewed and will have a more detailed debriefing more than once as the investigation goes al
144 Richierich: Honestly I don't see why. Most of the media outlets are showing "similar" planes in the Spanair house livery and not the Star Alliance colors. I thin
145 SKY1: The plane rose at very end of the runway according to many witness and airport employee. IF this point is confirmed the MD-82 had a problem before go
146 OA260: An air intake probe on the plane that crashed in Madrid experienced overheating before a first attempt at takeoff, it has been revealed. But Spanair s
147 Dragon6172: Anyone think they may have shut the wrong engine down? Fire in the #1 engine causes loss of thrust from that side, pilot puts in right rudder to corre
148 HT: From what I had read earlier, repair was a process of "disconnect" and "reconnect". -HT
149 Ota1: Having closely followed today's reports on German media, I have to say it really makes me sick what some of those so called experts say in this case.
150 HT: Just too stereotype: This happens after every crash. Best is not to turn on the TV on those days. -HT
151 SpeedBirdA380: Just watched a report on ITV new's here in the UK and they had an interview with a Span Air Flight Attendent who claim's many Span Air pilot's did not
152 Ota1: I have the impression it's worse than most of the times. Reminds me pretty much of Birgenair. Absolutely! But print media aren't any better either...
153 TTailSteve: Most likely union propaganda. The pilots union was preparing to strike and published plans to do so before the accident happened. Immediately after t
154 ULMFlyer: I disagree, considering what is believed to be known at the present point. JJ402 crashed due to an uncommanded deployment of the #2 thrust reverser s
155 Type-Rated: The MD-92 that crashed was only 15 years old. That's only nearing middle age for an airliner. I saw a news report yesterday that stated that when the
156 Mika: This is actually completely irrelevant to the case of safety; it might just be that the pilots this particular FA have worked with out of personal pr
157 Isitsafenow: My two cents on what happen...... Remember the DL MD-80 July of 96 at Pensacola FL?...N927DL......... It was taking off when the compressor hub failed
158 Mika: Kind of on the same line..what do you guys think about the statement (read it up there somewhere) that the survivors sat in the rows 14 to 17? Could
159 R2rho: I did a short tour of the Spanish media and it looks like they're keeping it cool and not reverting to stupid speculations, accusations or excessive d
160 Cumulus: Here's another twist from The Times:- Last night it was claimed that a sister plane of the aircraft that crashed had to make an emergency landing six
161 Okie73: no such order ever came down. Further, "easing" into the power can invalidate your takeoff data. You can't delay in getting to full power without eat
162 NicoEDDF: With normally being very realistic and fact orientated rather than emotional...this is one is just coming at me... Rest in peace dear friends...
163 Readytotaxi: I think you might have something here.
164 BOAC911: It just so happened that that section of the fuselage experienced the most stress during impact and broke in the vicinity of rows 14 to 17, ejecting
165 Isitsafenow: You may be a pilot or may not........but I disagree with your post. I know the DL guys WERE told, on the MD 80 AFTER PNS, to ease the throttle and no
166 CYatUK: I am really glad for this. It is the best for the relatives and friends of the people who died. Unfortunately when the Helios accident happened, Gree
167 N229NW: This is all true, and more, of papers such as the Sun and the Daily Mail. They have no scruples whatsoever and also do not print dissenting comments
168 Railker: Isn't that the company that owned the Q400s that had two landing gear failures within a week of eachother?
169 Cumulus: Aparently, after the first aborted take off one of the pax wanted to get off and wasn't allowed:- "Crew aboard the Madrid holiday plane that crashed a
170 727forever: Well, I am. The current guidance is bring them up to about 1.30 EPR and hold until both engines respond equally and then smoothly but swiftly bring t
171 Steelyman: You probably mean ANA (Air Nostrum). They had at least 1 Q400 gear failure and if my memory is correct a CRJ also.
172 DeC: I live and work in Greece for the past 6 years and i can sadly confirm that Greek media talks bull 90% of the time and that's the way they always han
173 NicoEDDF: Please, don't pull out those useless accusations.
174 TristarSteve: The only probe that fits this description is a pitot head. It takes in air, and it is heated. It is possible to dispatch aircraft with one of the pro
175 Kiwiandrew: yes SK did have some well publicised problems with their Q400s - but I am not sure how you see that as relevant to this thread - please enlighten me
176 NicoEDDF: According to German TV, the spanish investigators have a first theory, pointing to an uncontained engine failure of one engine leading to flying spark
177 Boeing747_600: At the risk of introducing an element of humour to this tragic thread, a variant of the "disconnect and reconnect" paradigm works for me on Windows X
178 GrahamHill: It looks like CNN used the picture as well http://edition.cnn.com/video/#/video...21/todd.madrid.plane.explainer.cnn
179 Vfw614: IIRC, row 17 is right in front of the wing, and that is probably the area where the fuselage broke first on impact.
180 BOACVC10: Looks like someone has some aircraft and simulator experience in designing this graphic, also note the complex flight path visible on the screen with
181 A320ajm: I am no expert so please feel free to rip this apart: could the engine somehow have damaged the rudder in an explosion/fire, causing the aircraft to s
182 SAS330GOT: It's always the pilot in command that has the final decision if it's safe enough to carry out the flight as planned. The MX people can only bring the
183 413X3: why do people continue to sit around and speculate about something which they have almost no information about and are not even close to being qualifi
184 Viscount724: An LX Avro RJ100 in Star Alliance livery was seriously damaged in a heavy landing at LCY last year. It was taken by barge from LCY to an off-airport
185 Cumulus: It's one the faults of A.net, a lot of Armchair Experts on here who know sod all except conjecture!!!!!!!!
186 Larshjort: But it must still be nervewrecking to be working on a plane and 15 minutes later its a burning wreck with ~90% onboard killed. /Lars
187 Mika: This is interesting, that would better explain why the A/C came down as it did.
188 Isitsafenow: The answer here is very very simple. You have heard of the Armchair quarterbacks or Armchair managers in a baseball game, second guessing the play, p
189 NicoEDDF: And what I forgot, too, is the assumed rudder damage due to the uncontained engine failure.
190 IrishMD11: An aircraft crashes into rough and very difficult terrain. One engine on fire, kerosene pissing all over the place. Local seasonal temperatures there
191 413X3: except all your examples are of sporting events. not a tragedy you cant collect data on an event when you barely know what has taken place. at least
192 DeC: He (And many others) aren't offending anyone nor suggesting that what they're speculating (often stressed the word in caps) is the truth behind what
193 Spacecadet: And every time there's an accident we have the exact same debate. Every accident thread on a.net follows the same pattern: Thread 1: a) someone posts
194 Virginblue4: My thoughts go to all the friends, family and work collegues of the people who unfortunately died in this crash.
195 Mrocktor: Losing the rudder would make the plane veer of in the direction of the failed engine (pushed by the opposite side, still functional, engine). That wo
196 Mika: In his defence, i do think that he meant amazing in a positive way.
197 Airbuster: ok guys, back to topic, this really isn't the thread to drift off debating about armchair CEO's pilots and investigators, we all want to know what wen
198 Dragon6172: I agree. Amazing that the fire required helo support, not amazing as in they used helos unnecessarily.
199 Litz: Don't forget one important thing ... witnesses have stated there was an engine on fire; not that it exploded. An engine on fire is still quite capable
200 TwinOtter4Ever: The greeks used Canadair CL-415 after the crash of the helios 737 in 05 to put out similar fires around athens...Grass fires aren't too fun either...
201 F9Animal: This would be awful if it was the contributing factor to the crash. Obviously the crew was concerned to return to the gate, and felt comfortable to l
202 DeC: Here's a very informative post about the MD which was also confirmed by others at pprune.org and that will hopefully solve many technical questions
203 Starlionblue: Well said. Mechs don't just disconnect stuff on a whim. The procedure was presumably approved. Stuff is unplugged and deactivated in planes all the t
204 Pihero: I am quite amazed at the number of interpretations and theories with soooo little facts ! Just about everything is either hearsay or -as Starlionblue
205 Aisak: Some of us know here that jumping off a plane is not that simple. The aircraft had some sort of tech problem and returned to the gate where all, let'
206 Okie73: I don't know when this passenger wanted off, but anytime an airplane is at a gate, as I would suspect when taking care of a maintenance problem, then
207 Aviateur: No, not if the stall happened after they were trying to stop. - PS
208 Alias1024: It seems unlikely, though not impossible, that they would be attempting to shut down an engine at that low of an altitude. I haven't flown the MD-80
209 Isitsafenow: ..but when the facts are in, there is no more guessing..........is there? safe
210 Brenintw: Pihero, there seems to be some dispute about this. Initial reports and subsequent reports have claimed that the aircraft was airborne. Do you have in
211 Wjcandee: Agreed. Add to that "it was a mechanical failure", "the MD80 is unsafe/accident-prone/dangerously-old", etc. Indeed, given that there are lots of rea
212 DeC: Very interesting developments as apparently, the investigators have a video of the crash in possession, perhaps taken from the airport's cctv systems.
213 PRAirbus: Anyone knows why there were so many crewmembers onboard? MD80s crews are usually 2 pilots and 3 to 5 FAs at the most. Were there any crewmembers trave
214 Mestrugo: Indeed, that's what ElPais.com informs: http://www.elpais.com/articulo/espan.../elpepuesp/20080822elpepinac_1/Tes It's a very interesting reading, as
215 DeC: This is what i read in other forums, yes.
216 Argonaut: You might be right. However, if I maybe forgiven for picking up on this rather off-topic issue, here's my two cents' worth: About three years ago I w
217 Gonzalo: I hear the same on CNN a few hours ago, but isn't clear what is damaged ( CVR or DFDR ? ). About the video tape, usually those cameras take low res i
218 Alias1024: We don't know anywhere near enough to determine what happened. We don't even know if an engine failed or not. Hell, this could have been a wake turbul
219 RayChuang: I think right now we really need to closely look at what the flight crew did when the port engine failed. Did the flight crew follow procedures correc
220 Alias1024: Has it even been confirmed that the engine failed? Eyewitnesses are wrong quite often.
221 Smeg: Working on the assumption (yeah, I know, but assumptions are all I have at the moment) that the port engine failed. - If the port engine failed, there
222 Ikramerica: Especially when an explosion is involved. The mind is an interesting contraption. It will reprocess what it sees and hears and add in past memories a
223 Tsaord: I wonder how high the plane got into the air to come down and just explode into fire like that. I wish planes could be built to be more survivable. Th
224 ZKSUJ: Sad news for aviation. Condolences to the families and those affected
225 Babybus: The poor little journalist is stuck in a central London office trying to cope with 5 other stories all at the same time. If he only relies on what co
226 Starlionblue: That just makes life extremely complex. Pax want to be let off all the time. I've been on aircraft that have had flickering lights on power-up (due t
227 Mandala499: It doesn't matter if they shove it or ease it to take off thrust, but take off thrust must be set before reaching 80 knots. The 320s can just shove t
228 Vfw614: That sort of fits in with the simulation shown on El Pais that indicates that the aircraft left the runway very early to the left and ended up to its
229 Smeg: Cheers for that, sorry, I didn't make myself clear in my musings. They are all based around the sudden right turn that the aircraft made, despite the
230 Pellegrine: Shocking allegations on Telegraph: http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worl...ed-to-stay-on-disaster-flight.html -A man thought something was wrong with t
231 Starlionblue: I don't know if it has been posted yet but here is a video taken by a rescue worker. It shows the wreckage pretty soon after the accident. It may be a
232 Ogre727: Welcome to my respected user's list. Very nice post.
233 HT: " target=_blank>http://www.aftonbladet.se/webbtv/nyh...84.ab Once one got past the commercial for a famous Cheeseburger and has found the correct pic
234 BuyantUkhaa: http://www.elpais.com/articulo/espan.../elpepuesp/20080822elpepinac_1/Tes My attempt at a translation: "the plane exploded/caught fire on the runway a
236 EUROBUS: Somehow, and please correct me if I am wrong with my statement as it might be quite harsh -many of you out there are commanding planes or work closely
237 Starlionblue: Well, you can interpret that in many ways. Certainly the situation should be looked at. Having said that, pilots don't have a death wish. If the pilo
238 NicoEDDF: Exactly, it is all about prevention. That doesn't in reverse mean, nothing can be done but prevention. There can be no doubt that a tube is not exact
239 PlaneWasted: I wonder about this pitot tube thing. Maybe someone made a mistake and the airspeed readings where not okay, leading to a stall? That would explain wh
240 EFBfan: Wings rocking, aircraft hardly getting airborne: I can't help thinking about the NW MD-82 crash in Detroit, in 1987. http://www.airliners.net/aviation
241 Mika: There were 20 children on the passenger manifest if i recall correctly. Sadly so. Given this new information apparently gathered from the video tape
242 Gonzalo: Exactly. Just say "NO GO". Well....Remember the ( now defunct ) argentinian LAPA ?...They do things like that and even worse...If you want to see it,
243 Freakyrat: My own belief on this accident and it is just speculation is that there was no engine fire or failure. The crew returned the acft to the gate for a pr
244 Mandala499: Being airborne for not higher that 10m seems to be what's consistent wiith no flap situation. It's happened before here 2x... Lion's PK-LID and Mandal
245 Mestrugo: In unrelated news, I've just read that Spanair has changed the code number of their 13:00 MAD-LPA flight to JK5024.
246 OA260: Yes 1310 . Also is it common for JK to use a B717 on that flight number ?? Tomorrow is a B717.
248 Ogre727: Why would they do that? is that normal practice? I mean, if they thought they would take off soon wouldn't everything as it was? Not a pilot, so I re
249 MSYtristar: I hate to join the guessing game, but here's my two cents, after hearing about the recent video findings... As a previous poster said, from the descri
250 Starlionblue: I can see where you're coming from and you make many valid points. Certainly flying wins can be built with some of the things you have in mind. But t
251 727forever: It depends upon several factors including the aircraft weight, flap setting used for takeoff, and the thrust setting used. Generally, the lower the w
252 Spacecadet: Nothing has been confirmed or dis-confirmed yet except that apparently no fire or explosion before the accident. (This is coming from Spanish officia
253 EUROBUS: What is 'official' is the personal opinion of our Prime Minister, Zapatero. What is real is that the images captured are in frames, at a great distan
254 Comorin: To a novice such as myself, I find these 'aftermath' threads really helpful - aviation professionals discussing potential causes of accidents. The mos
255 Spacecadet: Yes, you're right, I was confused - the article I was reading (on CNN) quoted the president of the Canary Islands, who was himself quoting Zapatero a
256 NicoEDDF: Yes, I do agree. There comes the point where negative acceleration forces are to strong to be survivable. But: Lots of accidents are not 300 kts nose
257 Kiwiandrew: realistically it is going to take expert crash investigators months to get to the root causes of this tragic crash , I am therefore somewhat doubtful
258 Jalapeno: I don't think it's been mentioned in any posts, but how about this being similar to the Delta 1141 at DFW (coming upon the 20 yr. anniv - 8/31/88) Th
259 SyeaphanR: I just wonder...If the crew were getting false speed indications, due to pitot problems, and were hence in trouble, at low speed, THEN lost an engine
260 EUROBUS: I fully understand your comment and get the meaning of what you are saying. Regarding converting the forum into a news broadcast, yes it is true we s
261 PlaneInsomniac: After years of reading a.net (need to get a real hobby), let me assure you that the vast majority of "conclusions" drawn in post-crash-threads are ut
262 R2rho: I see your point, but in the defense of a.netters, I must say that I wished the global media would speculate even half as well as we do. A lot of the
263 SpeedBirdA380: Maybe when a major disaster like this occur's a special thread could be set up by Admin just for people who want to leave message's of condolence??
264 Cyberflyer: With all of the reporting that has been going on, me thinks it was no flaps. Simple as that.
265 Oldtimer: I think that unlike UK CAA aircraft, there was no requirement for a config check as part of the pre-flight check list in FAA reg a/c. In truth there
266 Max777geek: There are company requirements for flaps settings taxiing in the airport. As far as I can remind, it was 5' for md80 in AZ in FCO, maybe there was di
267 Spacecadet: You're right - the warning existed but was not working correctly due to an electrical malfunction. Accident report is here: http://amelia.db.erau.edu
268 Mestrugo: We still have got very little information to know whatever happened, but it seems the comments about famous AENA video shows the plane taking a very l
269 Mestrugo: The more I see the picture of the tail I just posted, the fishier it seems to me. So, the right elevator is dramatically UP, and the left one seems to
270 Certosino: It's my first post, so... sorry in advance. Really that simulation works fine and remarks two important things: altitude (600 m) and temperature (30
271 Spacecadet: I think you're looking at it upside down. I see the tail sticking up on the other side (away from the camera), so what you're actually seeing is the
272 Keta: Yes, but possibly far less than an actual aileron would, as it's almost on the centerline of the aircraft, having almost no arm. I don't know at what
273 PlaneInsomniac: Not to be too negative, but that tail probably hit the ground a number of times, broke off the plane, may have rolled over several times, and then su
274 Pilotaydin: My 2 cents....I am an airline pilot...and I would like to start off by saying it was seriously sad flying to Lyon that day, and hearing on the freq th
275 Mestrugo: Don't forget that the MD-82 is a T-tail design. Therefore, in that picture we're seeing the tail from the top, not the bottom.
276 NicoEDDF: Hmm, no, I would disagree. The MD has a T-tail, therefore if you don't see the vertikal fin you must look on top of the horizontal stabilizer, no? Th
277 Smeg: Surely in the case of runway overruns, rather then attempt to make the aircraft stronger and thus heavier and more expensive, it would be better to a
278 Spacecadet: Oops Where I come from, we call that a "brain fart".
279 NicoEDDF: It is not about making the aircraft heavier and stronger. It is a totally different approach. No tube any longer, but a different concept. And as you
280 Mestrugo: While I understand the tail empennage may have gone this way due to the impact, I also understand that both elevators are coupled so they should alwa
281 Smeg: I am sure that they are not coupled in that way. I am pretty sure that I have seen them at the gate with the elevators in different positions/
282 NicoEDDF: Very correct! They are not physically connected!
283 Mestrugo: Indeed, I've investigated a little more and you're right, they aren't coupled. Still, I wouldn't be surprised if the tail empenage is found to be a f
284 Smeg: Accepted absolutely. I am not disagreeing with you that once the aircraft is in the air, all bets are off, but I am also suggesting that if there was
285 HT: Always a pleasure to read through your very pointy and well funded replies ! -HT ____ And strange how matching your signature (one of only a few that
286 NicoEDDF: Hmm, yes, that is true! That would add another positive factor/option to the equation. And every factor is needed in such a situation. Only real prob
287 Smeg: Absolutely. I have no idea as to how you would/could regulate that decision!
288 VC10: Just thought i would add my 2 cents worth here as to what happened and I would first add that I do not know the MD series in any detail, but how about
289 DeC: Take a look at this (click on the photo of the plane in order to get the animation started and then on the arrows) http://www.elpais.com/graficos/soci
290 Pilotaydin: i don't the know the operations for the mad dog, but on the boeing, the thrust lever stays where it is on the good engine...
291 Zeke: Possible, as well as putting in the wrong rudder, or being single engine below Vmca. Same as you, I do not know the MD80.
292 PlaneInsomniac: " target=_blank>http://www.elpais.com/graficos/socie.../Ges/ Hmm.... it would call this an "artist's impression" based on preliminary facts. Also not
293 Corsair2: The aircraft performance of the Spanair accident flight bears some semblance to what happend in the August 1987 crash of NW 255 in Detroit. In that MD
294 Corsair2: On the MD-80 aircraft, the elevator system is quite complicated. The control system uses balance tabs - the balance tabs "backdrive" the control surf
295 Max777geek: more than tricky, on the md80, wouldn't it be one hell of a hard work ? Just wondering.
296 Connies4ever: I didn't troll through all the posts on this thread, but it seems security videos captured JK5022 as it was taking off and there was NO fire. Once aga
297 VC10: [quote=Connies4ever,reply=296][/quote That is quite an interesting suggestion ,but what I do not understand is on the MD series is there no take off
298 Connies4ever: I had thought there was an aural "Slats, slats" as you accelerated with slats retracted. But I may be wrong.
299 Corsair2: The MD-80 does have a takeoff configuration warning system for slats, flaps, stabilizer, brake and other systems, but in the case of the 1987 NW acci
300 N104UA: Such a sad thing with all the people who have died
301 Sleeperseat: After all these technical discussions/ issues, i want to cut right to the rumour that some passenger wanted to leave the plane after the aborted take
302 YYZYYT: I'm neither a pilot nor an aerodynamics expert, but I do recall reading several acocunts of split elevators arising out of contrary inputs from the t
303 TWAL1011727: The MD80s all have a Central Aural Warning System ("Bitchin Betty") for the takeoff warning system. (an aural voice saying "flap,stabilizer, fl-ap) K
304 RW170: It was actually a Northwest MD-82, flight 255.
305 OA260: ______________________________________________ PART 3 here ::: http://www.airliners.net/aviation-fo...ms/general_aviation/post.main?3287 _____________
306 Viscount724: Not just the slats. The flaps were also fully retracted.
307 Starlionblue: Agreed. Fire reduction is a big issue. In fact after the British Airtours 737 crash a lot of work was done on flame retardation in the cabin. Then ag
308 Starlionblue: " target=_blank>http://www.airliners.net/aviation-fo...?3287 Good intentions, but I would let a moderator do that. He/she can also lock this thread.
309 Spacecadet: Was discussed earlier. Probably we do need a part 3, seems like the thread's getting too long to read through. It's been a while since I read the acc
310 Sleeperseat: I would really like to read something regarding this issue, i can not believe that this really happened and the pax were forced to stay onboard.
311 Gonzalo: Like someone said earlier, there are IATA regulations about the subject, anytime you buy a ticket with any airline in the world, as a passenger, you
312 MD80fanatic: With the rear stairs on the MD-8X, there should not be a problem allowing anyone to leave the aircraft.....provided they agree to delay retrieval of a
313 Starlionblue: Plenty of things wrong with that. The bags need to be offloaded with the pax for security reasons.
314 SKY1: People, what do you think about the fact that aircraft was needing all the runway to go up? Remember this Barajas' 36 runway is the longest in Europe.
315 MD80fanatic: The rule maybe....but still stupid. Wouldn't the bag be put through a thorough testing prior to being loaded in the first place? If it is safe enough
316 MD80fanatic: There was 1/3 of the runway remaining when the plane left the pavement. Probably plenty of room to stop had the aircraft been able to remain on the p
317 PanHAM: It may sound odd in this case, but the rule is that no bags fly without the pax sitting in the aircraft. I've seen one exception, after a go around in
318 OA260: With over 300 posts not all of us have a broadband connection and takes ages to load , yet I got an email saying low quality post and that I didnt pr
319 VR-HKG: You make a good point, actually. Those of us on broadband connections (including myself) tend to forget just how slow the web can be for anybody stil
320 Starlionblue: You have a point. But I would still find it a bit suspicious if someone willingly left their bags.
321 Sleeperseat: OK STOP, WHAT DO YOU CALL AN OFFICIAL STOP???? This was not a regular event that made this aircraft return to the gate. If a take off roll is aborted
322 Sleeperseat: I totally agree with you. Bags are checked so heavily a couple of times before the are loaded, so this shouldn't be a factor. Guess that thousands ba
323 EUROBUS: Unfortunately, Sleeperseat, this does happen occasionally. I have been quite a number of times in a plane that has had to go back to the terminal are
324 Keta: First off, calm down. There's no reason why you should over-emphasize your words, we can perfectly read them in no-caps. Now, in my opinion (and I'm
325 Connies4ever: I couldn't remember for sure if the accident occurred before or after NW acquired Republic. Good catch. IIRC, playback of the CVR showed both pilots
327 Keta: Interesting idea, maybe not in the case of this accident, but surely a gravel trap would help stop an overrun. One problem I see, is that firefighter
328 Mika: Would you have thought the same way, as passionately and over-emphasizingly, if the plane would have continued it's jurney like normal? It happens on
329 Sleeperseat: To change a plane doesn't scare anyone i guess. It means to get of a risk into a newer or better inspected one. No big deal i think. I'd rather stay
330 Starlionblue: The job of the F/As is in part to ease the fears of concerned passengers. The only reason this is a "scandal" this time is because the plane actually
332 PanHAM: Don't yell at me. NUE in that case was not an offcial stop either but a diversion. Some of the pax had NUE as final destination anyhow, they just had
333 Srbmod: Please continue the discussion in the following thread: Spanair Crash @ Madrid PT. 3
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