BAW716 From United States of America, joined Nov 2003, 1994 posts, RR: 31 Reply 1, posted (4 years 9 months 3 days 12 hours ago) and read 11407 times:
It appears to be like the LH business class seat.. with a few modifications unique to AA. The problem is that it not a true FLAT seat. It is a sloped seat, which most carriers have in their J classes...but the newer J products are coming out with 180 degree flat seats...so this seems to be nothing new.
Also, why did AA not go with a modified version of the seats being installed on the 767-300 fleet?
To me, to stay competitive with UA, they have to put in a 180 degree flat seat in their 777 fleet...UA will be ahead of AA in this regard.
Doesn't seem like typical AA thinking.
baw716
David L. Lamb, fmr Area Mgr Alitalia SFO 1998-2002, fmr Regional Analyst SFO-UAL 1992-1998
Longhornmaniac From United States of America, joined Jun 2005, 3094 posts, RR: 48 Reply 3, posted (4 years 9 months 3 days 11 hours ago) and read 11315 times:
Are you aware that this seat has already been implemented, fleet-wide on the 777? The seat is very comfortable, see my TR if you want details on a short flight from ORD-DFW, but it is difficult to get in and out of if your seatmate is reclined or flat. There is no slide, at least that I've noticed in two trips with it, and it serves its purpose.
AA could have invested in a 180 degree lie-flat J class, but elected against it in favor of these seats for one main reason:
If AA had decided to go with the lie-flat seat, they would've been forced to take out a number of J seats to accommodate the larger, lie-flat seats. With these seats, nothing had to be removed. In fact, there are now 37 J seats, as opposed to 35 previously, at least on the 777. I'm assuming AA weighed the options, and decided that this would provide the best compromise between quality and quantity. It's incredibly easy to sleep in (IMO), but affords two more upgrade opportunities as compared to the previous seat/layout.
Quoting BAW716 (Reply 1): Also, why did AA not go with a modified version of the seats being installed on the 767-300 fleet?
Having tried the new seat on both planes, I can tell you that even if it isn't actually any bigger, the amount of space feels light years bigger on the 777, simply because the cabin is so much larger.
Quoting BAW716 (Reply 1): To me, to stay competitive with UA, they have to put in a 180 degree flat seat in their 777 fleet...UA will be ahead of AA in this regard.
Product-wise, yes, UA will have a "better" J seat. But on the same token, it will be easier for AAdvantage elites to get the new AA seat, than it will be for Mileage Plus Elites to get the new UA seat. Seems like a pretty even trade-off, if you ask me. Certainly if I had my choice of either, based on nothing more than the seat, I'd rather have the new UA seat. But at the same time, I know my chances of sitting in either J seat are better on AA.
Ssides From United States of America, joined Feb 2001, 4059 posts, RR: 23 Reply 5, posted (4 years 9 months 3 days 10 hours ago) and read 11096 times:
Quoting BAW716 (Reply 1): To me, to stay competitive with UA, they have to put in a 180 degree flat seat in their 777 fleet...UA will be ahead of AA in this regard.
Quoting Longhornmaniac (Reply 3):
If AA had decided to go with the lie-flat seat, they would've been forced to take out a number of J seats to accommodate the larger, lie-flat seats. With these seats, nothing had to be removed. In fact, there are now 37 J seats, as opposed to 35 previously, at least on the 777. I'm assuming AA weighed the options, and decided that this would provide the best compromise between quality and quantity. It's incredibly easy to sleep in (IMO), but affords two more upgrade opportunities as compared to the previous seat/layout.
Longhornmaniac is correct, although I think it was even more seats than that.
From what I understand, AA had developed a biz class product with a true, 180-degree lie-flat seat. However, in order to fit the lie-flat seats in the cabin, AA would have been forced to remove an entire row of seats (maybe two). That would have eliminated the revenue from 7 (or maybe even 14) biz class seats on each flight.
Looking at typical trans-atlantic and trans-pacific fares, eliminating those seats would cost AA at least $50,000 in revenue per flight. I believe Arpey himself was instrumental in the decision not to go with the lie-flat seats, because he knew that AA would not be able to charge the premium to make up for that amount of lost revenue.
While I have not flown in AA's new biz class seats, I have flown in the EK biz class seats that has similar recline. While I'm sure that AA's seats aren't as nice as EK's, I will say that I don't mind the fact that the seat isn't fully flat -- I've been able to sleep without any problem with the seat at 170 or 175 degrees.
LHR777 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR: Reply 6, posted (4 years 9 months 3 days 9 hours ago) and read 11008 times:
Quoting Ssides (Reply 5): From what I understand, AA had developed a biz class product with a true, 180-degree lie-flat seat. However, in order to fit the lie-flat seats in the cabin, AA would have been forced to remove an entire row of seats (maybe two). That would have eliminated the revenue from 7 (or maybe even 14) biz class seats on each flight.
Looking at typical trans-atlantic and trans-pacific fares, eliminating those seats would cost AA at least $50,000 in revenue per flight. I believe Arpey himself was instrumental in the decision not to go with the lie-flat seats, because he knew that AA would not be able to charge the premium to make up for that amount of lost revenue.
It's not like everyone in AA J class is purchasing their J class seat - you'll find that often the majority of seats are occupied by AAdvantage upgrades or mileage redemption customers. I think they could have gone with flat-beds, as opposed to flat-seats and not risked any loss of revenue.
Ssides From United States of America, joined Feb 2001, 4059 posts, RR: 23 Reply 7, posted (4 years 9 months 3 days 8 hours ago) and read 10936 times:
Quoting LHR777 (Reply 6): It's not like everyone in AA J class is purchasing their J class seat - you'll find that often the majority of seats are occupied by AAdvantage upgrades or mileage redemption customers. I think they could have gone with flat-beds, as opposed to flat-seats and not risked any loss of revenue.
I must respectfully disagree. If it were a 2 or 3-seat loss, not that big of a deal. But if you've tried to get upgraded or redeem miles on AA's heavier-utilized business routes (like DFW-LHR, for example), you'll see that it's very hard to get them (it also costs a pretty penny in terms of mileage and copayments to get upgraded on AA's trans-oceanic flights, and you can't redeem electronic upgrade "stickers" on those flights, either). AA has had success in filling their premium cabins on these routes (which is a main reason why they've maintained their 777s as 3-class), so overall I think it's a good move.
AA737-823 From United States of America, joined Mar 2000, 5336 posts, RR: 11 Reply 8, posted (4 years 9 months 3 days 8 hours ago) and read 10879 times:
Quoting BAW716 (Reply 1): To me, to stay competitive with UA, they have to put in a 180 degree flat seat in their 777 fleet...UA will be ahead of AA in this regard.
Um, all AA really has to do to be ahead of United today is to continue serving business-class meals to business-class passengers, rather than simply handing out BOB offerings from coach for free.
A seat is certainly important, but so is NOT receiving food out in a paper box.
Airlineaddict From United States of America, joined Jan 2005, 415 posts, RR: 1 Reply 9, posted (4 years 9 months 3 days 6 hours ago) and read 10673 times:
Quoting AA737-823 (Reply 8): Um, all AA really has to do to be ahead of United today is to continue serving business-class meals to business-class passengers, rather than simply handing out BOB offerings from coach for free.
A seat is certainly important, but so is NOT receiving food out in a paper box.
I guess CO will be ahead of both by offering lie-flat and food on plates.
Jumbojet From United States of America, joined Dec 2003, 1159 posts, RR: 0 Reply 10, posted (4 years 9 months 3 days 5 hours ago) and read 10088 times:
Quoting Longhornmaniac (Reply 3): Product-wise, yes, UA will have a "better" J seat. But on the same token, it will be easier for AAdvantage elites to get the new AA seat, than it will be for Mileage Plus Elites to get the new UA seat. Seems like a pretty even trade-off, if you ask me. Certainly if I had my choice of either, based on nothing more than the seat, I'd rather have the new UA seat. But at the same time, I know my chances of sitting in either J seat are better on AA.
It's a two sided coin and to each his own. Some will say its important to continually improve your product and offer a true lie flat seat and others will say its more important to have more seats and less comfort but have the opportunity for eliters to upgrade.
Quoting Airlineaddict (Reply 9): Quoting AA737-823 (Reply 8):
Um, all AA really has to do to be ahead of United today is to continue serving business-class meals to business-class passengers, rather than simply handing out BOB offerings from coach for free.
A seat is certainly important, but so is NOT receiving food out in a paper box.
I guess CO will be ahead of both by offering lie-flat and food on plates.
As will Delta
Quoting Ssides (Reply 5): From what I understand, AA had developed a biz class product with a true, 180-degree lie-flat seat. However, in order to fit the lie-flat seats in the cabin, AA would have been forced to remove an entire row of seats (maybe two). That would have eliminated the revenue from 7 (or maybe even 14) biz class seats on each flight.
Looking at typical trans-atlantic and trans-pacific fares, eliminating those seats would cost AA at least $50,000 in revenue per flight. I believe Arpey himself was instrumental in the decision not to go with the lie-flat seats, because he knew that AA would not be able to charge the premium to make up for that amount of lost revenue.
DL has seemed to figure out a way to add a true lie flat seat in J in not only there T7's but eventually on there entire international widebody fleet (with the exception of the transatlantic 752's). DL has also needed to eliminate some biz seats but DL management seemed to find a middle ground between lost revenue, improving there product and staying ahead of the pack.
Triple7man From Thailand, joined May 2005, 679 posts, RR: 0 Reply 11, posted (4 years 9 months 3 days 5 hours ago) and read 10039 times:
I have not flown in the new business class seats on AA, but we have them on all of our 767-300 fleet and all 777's except 1 have them.
I found the previous business class seats very comfortable from my experience, but I remember when I worked at AA our premium members were telling me that until we get new lie flats seats we are not going to be competitive with the other airlines like BA.
Generally business class is very full on our international flights, and our big money maker is the JFK-LHR market.
I have read all the pro's and con's written, but in the end, I think it was a good move on AA's part to install them. I'd like to try it on an international flight sometime and see how it compares with the first class flagship suite,
UAL777UK From United Kingdom, joined Nov 2005, 3355 posts, RR: 1 Reply 12, posted (4 years 9 months 3 days 5 hours ago) and read 9966 times:
Quoting AA737-823 (Reply 8): Um, all AA really has to do to be ahead of United today is to continue serving business-class meals to business-class passengers, rather than simply handing out BOB offerings from coach for free.
Yawn! As most informed people will know, UA are not planning at all to change meal offerings in F & J on any international route. They are planning on offering BOB on IAD-Europe flight in Y and Y only. Fact.
As for the seats, I hate to tell you this but UA's new J seat is light years ahead of AA's current offering.
ORDagent From United States of America, joined Dec 2003, 823 posts, RR: 1 Reply 13, posted (4 years 9 months 3 days 4 hours ago) and read 9846 times:
Quoting LHR777 (Reply 6): It's not like everyone in AA J class is purchasing their J class seat - you'll find that often the majority of seats are occupied by AAdvantage upgrades or mileage redemption customers.
It depends on the market. My corporate clients usually end up buying full J class seats particularly to London as upgrades are usually next to impossible. Just because there are 30 seats in a J cabin only a certain number are available for free/upgraded tickets. Some airlines would rather fly those seats empty instead of filling them in order to preserve the value and integrity of the product so people will pay for them. AA and most of the rest of the airlines are making Y to J upgrades more and more difficult to clear dependant on the actual market flown. This is particularly true of NRT and LHR.
Triple7man From Thailand, joined May 2005, 679 posts, RR: 0 Reply 15, posted (4 years 9 months 3 days 4 hours ago) and read 9400 times:
Quoting ORDagent (Reply 13): It depends on the market. My corporate clients usually end up buying full J class seats particularly to London as upgrades are usually next to impossible. Just because there are 30 seats in a J cabin only a certain number are available for free/upgraded tickets. Some airlines would rather fly those seats empty instead of filling them in order to preserve the value and integrity of the product so people will pay for them. AA and most of the rest of the airlines are making Y to J upgrades more and more difficult to clear dependant on the actual market flown. This is particularly true of NRT and LHR.
Then they would use EVIP (electronic VIP) upgrades to first class. Many times a premium member would be waitlisted for an upgrade and it often did not clear until the day of the flight. Usually on NRT and LHR flights, business class is very full. First class is often full too in the summer.
And in the summer months, when the flights are oversold, you might find yourself in business class, compliments of AA.
AA777223 From United States of America, joined Feb 2006, 1112 posts, RR: 7 Reply 16, posted (4 years 9 months 3 days 3 hours ago) and read 8901 times:
Quoting Triple7man (Reply 11): I have not flown in the new business class seats on AA, but we have them on all of our 767-300 fleet and all 777's except 1 have them.
I found the previous business class seats very comfortable from my experience, but I remember when I worked at AA our premium members were telling me that until we get new lie flats seats we are not going to be competitive with the other airlines like BA.
Generally business class is very full on our international flights, and our big money maker is the JFK-LHR market.
I have read all the pro's and con's written, but in the end, I think it was a good move on AA's part to install them. I'd like to try it on an international flight sometime and see how it compares with the first class flagship suite,
I felw on the new seats earlier this summer on a ORD-FRA run and found them pretty comfortable. I have flown J on several other international airlines like LH, SAS, BA, etc., and I have flown the old AA j class copious times. This was just my first experience on the new J. It was fine, and I wouldn't sacrifice the value of earning the advantage miles just to fly CO, DL, or UA. The food is always good in AA J and the service typically acceptable.
Imapilotaz From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR: Reply 17, posted (4 years 9 months 3 days 3 hours ago) and read 8670 times:
Quoting UAL777UK (Reply 12): Yawn! As most informed people will know, UA are not planning at all to change meal offerings in F & J on any international route. They are planning on offering BOB on IAD-Europe flight in Y and Y only. Fact.
I think you missed his point. From his experience, he was saying that he has been given the BOB food for FREE in J, and did not pay for it. The quality of a BOB product is a huge difference from what even coach food was 10 years ago, and is no way acceptable for a J class service.
MaverickM11 From United States of America, joined Apr 2000, 15722 posts, RR: 47 Reply 18, posted (4 years 9 months 3 days 3 hours ago) and read 8613 times:
Quoting LHR777 (Reply 6): It's not like everyone in AA J class is purchasing their J class seat - you'll find that often the majority of seats are occupied by AAdvantage upgrades or mileage redemption customers.
Domestically, yes, but internationally, they're probably mostly purchased.
Profcalvin From United States of America, joined Jun 2008, 107 posts, RR: 0 Reply 19, posted (4 years 9 months 3 days 1 hour ago) and read 7799 times:
My dad recently flew NRT-DFW on AA J-class and said it was not worth his money.
First of all he complained about the seat not going flat and that it wasn't that comfrotable.
Second of all, he said the service was horrible. (he was in Japan for the last couple months and the Japanese have wonderful service so he may have had too high expectations)
Third of all, he said the food was horrible.
Just my Dad's opinion so please don't judge me on it.
That's a very good point. Most consultants and executives (and hell many companies even for mid-level management) have clauses written into contracts that over a certain length flight the company is required to purchase a business class seat.
LHR777 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR: Reply 22, posted (4 years 9 months 3 days ago) and read 6968 times:
Quoting Ssides (Reply 7): I must respectfully disagree. If it were a 2 or 3-seat loss, not that big of a deal. But if you've tried to get upgraded or redeem miles on AA's heavier-utilized business routes (like DFW-LHR, for example), you'll see that it's very hard to get them (it also costs a pretty penny in terms of mileage and copayments to get upgraded on AA's trans-oceanic flights, and you can't redeem electronic upgrade "stickers" on those flights, either). AA has had success in filling their premium cabins on these routes (which is a main reason why they've maintained their 777s as 3-class), so overall I think it's a good move.
...and I will respectfully disagree with you. As a London-based Executive Platinum on AA, I never purchased J class, and always sat in that cabin, even on deeply disscounted tickets. Yes, I'm aware of the $350 co-pay and 25k miles required, but people would still rather stump that up than pay for a J class fare.
Quoting ORDagent (Reply 13): It depends on the market. My corporate clients usually end up buying full J class seats particularly to London as upgrades are usually next to impossible. Just because there are 30 seats in a J cabin only a certain number are available for free/upgraded tickets. Some airlines would rather fly those seats empty instead of filling them in order to preserve the value and integrity of the product so people will pay for them. AA and most of the rest of the airlines are making Y to J upgrades more and more difficult to clear dependant on the actual market flown. This is particularly true of NRT and LHR.
Thats interesting. In 17 years of flying AA, i've never had a J-class upgrade to or from LHR/LGW not clear. Am I just lucky, perhaps?
Apart from transcon, AA doesn't offer J class domestically anyway. If they're purchased, they are purchased on corporate deals and are heavily discounted.
I have nothing against AA, it's a nice carrier, with a reasonably decent international product. However, flat-beds are the way forward these days, not AA's new-but-outdated angled lie-flat product. They definitely missed an opportunity on this one, IMHO. FWIW, I was personally involved in testing the new seats back in 2005 in Dallas. Myself and several frequent flyers advised AA that they needed to be flat-beds, not angled lie-flat seats. They didn't listen.
AA777223 From United States of America, joined Feb 2006, 1112 posts, RR: 7 Reply 24, posted (4 years 9 months 3 days ago) and read 6853 times:
Quoting LHR777 (Reply 22): Thats interesting. In 17 years of flying AA, i've never had a J-class upgrade to or from LHR/LGW not clear. Am I just lucky, perhaps?
I think you are... in my experience those upgrades to and from London are very difficult to get, but then again, i'm just gold, not exec platinum
Sic 'em bears
25 ORDflier: Folks, although this post is about American's new seats, it is important to point out in reply to some of the posts about United's recent changes in B
26 Gulfstream650: Nothing new to me about this seat.
27 TUSaadvantage: Ummm, this isn't new. I flew AA 71 from FRA to DFW on Tuesday and sat in one of these seats. Looks unimpressive in pictures, but better in real life.
28 44k: One must not forget that both CO & DL are 2 class carriers with only J, while AA does have a fully flat offering in the Flagship Suite. I have flown
29 Mikelive: If these are the seats I was in on AA153 from ORD to NRT back on 8/6, then I absolutely loved the seating. Then again, my company paid for the seating
30 IronDuke08: Yup, at my company everyone, even the most junior staff person, is allowed "one class above coach" on international flights longer than 1.5hr. The tr
31 Triple7man: As one who flies in first class several times a year between Japan (NRT, KIX, NGO) and the US I always get wonderful service....98% of the time. I've
32 TylerDurden: And by not doing exactly that..has relegated itself to being an 'also ran' in the J-class market. An opportunity missed by an otherwise innovative ca
33 Plunaaircanada: A bit off-topic but I just love that website! The animations are awesome!
34 United1: ORD Flyer is absolutely spot on...and for those who really want to know its a grand total of 20 flights a day that will be affected by this. As for t
35 VC10er: i haven't flown in the new AA J seat and look forward to it. AA has never been an airline that i respected in terms of service. UA, which naturally ha
36 Longhornmaniac: This is an interesting notion, because it can be looked at from different perspectives. On the one hand, I agree with you. Compared to other airlines
37 AA777223: I was under the impression that CO didn't offer a lie flat, but an angled bed in bizfirst. I was also under the impression taht deltas bizelite was al
38 Avek00: CO will be installing a lie-flat from next year in its 777, 757, and 787 aircraft. The entire DL/NW longhaul fleet will be receiving lie-flat seats o
39 United1: [quote=Avek00,reply=38] Beat me to it....
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