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Is There Any News On 17 January 2008 BA Crash  
User currently offlineEastern747 From United States of America, joined Oct 2006, 561 posts, RR: 0
Posted (6 years 3 months 3 weeks 4 days 19 hours ago) and read 12465 times:

I pretty much check this site everyday. But I haven't seen anything regarding what caused the B777 to crash at Heathrow. I mean they have a live crew, and a pretty much intact aircraft, and all the recordings and black boxes. So what happened 9 months ago.(?)

48 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineKiwiandrew From New Zealand, joined Jun 2005, 8625 posts, RR: 13
Reply 1, posted (6 years 3 months 3 weeks 4 days 19 hours ago) and read 12446 times:
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perhaps you should edit your thread title to show the date it happened - otherwise people might think that it is a new crash ?


Moderation in all things ... including moderation ;-)
User currently offlineBCAL From United Kingdom, joined Jun 2004, 3384 posts, RR: 15
Reply 2, posted (6 years 3 months 3 weeks 4 days 18 hours ago) and read 12292 times:

Tests are still ongoing at Boeing, Seattle according to the last update released by AAIB

Quote:
The focus of the investigation continues to be the fuel system of both the aircraft and the engines, in order to understand why neither engine responded to the demanded increase in power when all of the engine control functions operated normally. Under the direction of the AAIB, extensive full scale engine testing has been conducted at Rolls-Royce, Derby, and fuel system testing is ongoing at Boeing, Seattle.




MOL on SRB's latest attack at BA: "It's like a little Chihuahua barking at a dying Labrador. Nobody cares."
User currently offlineSashA From Russia, joined May 1999, 861 posts, RR: 0
Reply 3, posted (6 years 3 months 3 weeks 4 days 6 hours ago) and read 11400 times:

Unfortunately the aircraft isn't much of an intact one - I think is gonna be the first B777 to be written off?


An2/24/28,Yak42,Tu154/134,IL18/62/96,B737/757/767,A310/320/319,F100,BAe146,EMB-145,CRJ,A340-600,B747-400,A-330-300,A-340
User currently offlineLeftWing From Singapore, joined Mar 2006, 284 posts, RR: 0
Reply 4, posted (6 years 3 months 3 weeks 4 days 6 hours ago) and read 11357 times:



Quoting SashA (Reply 3):
first B777 to be written off?

...Boeing and BA are rebuilding the complete airplane to ensure ZERO hull loss on 777....


User currently offlineAPYu From United Kingdom, joined Sep 2007, 842 posts, RR: 0
Reply 5, posted (6 years 3 months 3 weeks 4 days 5 hours ago) and read 11249 times:

But the insurers had already written it off. We were told such by Willie Walsh werent we? and it was accounted for on the balance sheet.


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User currently offlineAceFreighter From United Kingdom, joined Nov 2003, 179 posts, RR: 0
Reply 6, posted (6 years 3 months 3 weeks 4 days 3 hours ago) and read 10894 times:

The aircraft is definitely written off and will not be re-built. The reason it hasn't been broken up yet is due to the ongoing investigation. I hear the AAIB report should be out in September.

User currently offlineFlynavy From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 7, posted (6 years 3 months 3 weeks 4 days 3 hours ago) and read 10792 times:



Quoting SashA (Reply 3):
I think is gonna be the first B777 to be written off?

Prior to the BA crash one 777 had been parted out for spares.

MSN 27109/LN 19 was scrapped in 2006 at ARG; ex-G-ZZZE, N703BA, 7T-VKQ, PP-VRD.


User currently offlineDALCE From Netherlands, joined Feb 2007, 1721 posts, RR: 7
Reply 8, posted (6 years 3 months 3 weeks 4 days 3 hours ago) and read 10747 times:

It is quite a difference whether a plane gets parted out or is w/o by a crash(landing).
This will be the first 777 that is w/o. Not the first one to be parted out.



flown: F50,F70,CR1,CR2,CR9,E75,143,AR8,AR1,733,735,736,73G,738,753,744,77W,319,320,321,333,AB6.
User currently offlineFlynavy From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 9, posted (6 years 3 months 3 weeks 4 days 3 hours ago) and read 10707 times:

Quoting DALCE (Reply 8):
It is quite a difference whether a plane gets parted out or is w/o by a crash(landing).

No kidding. I was simply adding to the discussion. No worries, I'll run it by you next time.

[Edited 2008-08-28 02:25:11]

User currently offlineAndrewUber From United States of America, joined Jul 2003, 2528 posts, RR: 40
Reply 10, posted (6 years 3 months 3 weeks 3 days 23 hours ago) and read 10188 times:



Quoting LeftWing (Reply 4):
Boeing and BA are rebuilding the complete airplane to ensure ZERO hull loss on 777



Quoting AceFreighter (Reply 6):
The aircraft is definitely written off and will not be re-built.

Which one is correct?



I'd rather shoot BAD_MOTIVE
User currently offlineTangowhisky From United States of America, joined Jun 2006, 931 posts, RR: 7
Reply 11, posted (6 years 3 months 3 weeks 3 days 23 hours ago) and read 10005 times:

The investigation is focusing on recreating the fuel pumps' damage in a lab under different cavitation circumstances. As I understand it they will try and determine which source of cavitation to the pumps can cause the same type of damage recovered from the pumps. They are focusing on waxing of the fuel as the culprit that may have caused blockage and the starvation of fuel led to the kind of damage they are seeing on the pumps that are cavitation related. But I have always asked myself why are they so quiet about this? and what else happened?


Only the paranoid survive
User currently offlinePellegrine From United States of America, joined Mar 2007, 2495 posts, RR: 8
Reply 12, posted (6 years 3 months 3 weeks 3 days 23 hours ago) and read 9890 times:



Quoting AndrewUber (Reply 10):
Which one is correct?

Well they already took the tail off, so......

Quoting Tangowhisky (Reply 11):
They are focusing on waxing of the fuel as the culprit that may have caused blockage and the starvation of fuel led to the kind of damage they are seeing on the pumps that are cavitation related.

I still don't see how this could have happened without water contamination and/or bad fuel (fuel which did not meet the low temp spec). But yes, why are they so quiet??



oh boy!!!
User currently offlineTomaeroeng From Germany, joined Nov 2006, 33 posts, RR: 0
Reply 13, posted (6 years 3 months 3 weeks 3 days 22 hours ago) and read 9589 times:

Presumably they are reluctant to hint at fuel contamination as reason for the accident, simply because this would certainly lead to fingerpointing at the origin of the bad fuel.

Another reason is that they cannot reconstruct the damage to the pumps in the lab, so they dont know what happened.

Its perfectly understandable that authorities will only release this kind of information, when they can prove it without doubt.


User currently offlineIrregKing From Germany, joined Feb 2008, 146 posts, RR: 0
Reply 14, posted (6 years 3 months 3 weeks 3 days 21 hours ago) and read 8004 times:



Quoting Flynavy (Reply 7):
Quoting SashA (Reply 3):
MSN 27109/LN 19 was scrapped in 2006 at ARG; ex-G-ZZZE, N703BA, 7T-VKQ, PP-VRD.

off topic but are there any pics of 27109 being scrapped somewhere?



Worked on: A300,310,319,320,321,332,333,342,343,346,380,B732/3/4/5,744,DC10 -- Currently working on: A380 only
User currently offlineAirNZ From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 15, posted (6 years 3 months 3 weeks 3 days 21 hours ago) and read 7731 times:



Quoting LeftWing (Reply 4):
.Boeing and BA are rebuilding the complete airplane to ensure ZERO hull loss on 777....

How are BA rebuilding it when they no longer own it?


User currently offlineStar_world From Ireland, joined Jun 2001, 1234 posts, RR: 0
Reply 16, posted (6 years 3 months 3 weeks 3 days 20 hours ago) and read 7660 times:



Quoting AirNZ (Reply 15):

How are BA rebuilding it when they no longer own it?

They're not. It's not being rebuilt.


User currently offlinePar13del From Bahamas, joined Dec 2005, 7644 posts, RR: 8
Reply 17, posted (6 years 3 months 3 weeks 3 days 20 hours ago) and read 7364 times:



Quoting Tomaeroeng (Reply 13):
Presumably they are reluctant to hint at fuel contamination as reason for the accident, simply because this would certainly lead to fingerpointing at the origin of the bad fuel.

How about a conspiracy theory:
1. A/c was inbound from China
2. China is hosting major event - Olympics
3. Cannot do anything to cast a negative light on China before or during the Olympics
4. Other a/c fly out same day, same time, one slight problem if memory is correct, no other fuel issues.

So, stay in the lab until you get it right. It does beg one question, where is all this high tech knowledge and equipment that we hear about all the time, how many advancements we have made etc. etc. etc. etc. all the computers in the a/c and out, with the ability to read and verify data etc. and to this point still no definitive answer?

Me thinks we need to slow down next time we talk about how great technology is, put things in their proper perspective, man made things can go wrong and if man has not programmed it correctly, you get garbage in, garbage out.


User currently offlineTonystan From Ireland, joined Jan 2006, 1447 posts, RR: 2
Reply 18, posted (6 years 3 months 3 weeks 3 days 19 hours ago) and read 6595 times:



Quoting AndrewUber (Reply 10):

Quoting LeftWing (Reply 4):
Boeing and BA are rebuilding the complete airplane to ensure ZERO hull loss on 777



Quoting AceFreighter (Reply 6):
The aircraft is definitely written off and will not be re-built.

Which one is correct?

The aircraft has been written off, it was written off very soon after the crash and it is no longer BA nor Boeing property. Its shell belongs to the creditors or whoever now and BA have claimed the insurance pending the outcome of the accident.

I must admit, I was having a conversation with my Dad yesterday (retired fleet captain) and we both think that everything has become suspiciously quiet on this subject. No directives or notices to 777 operators have been issued which in his expert opinion would suggest pilot error or something unique to the carriers operation however all three pilots are still flying (great chaps BTW, have had the pleasure of working with them) and I am not aware of any change to SOP's within the company as a direct result of the crash!

I wonder if the investigators do know what happened and possibly just sitting on it for a quiet release when everyone has forgotten about it!



My views are my own and do not reflect any other person or organisation.
User currently offlineElbowRoom From United Kingdom, joined Jun 2008, 181 posts, RR: 0
Reply 19, posted (6 years 3 months 3 weeks 3 days 19 hours ago) and read 6545 times:



Quoting Tonystan (Reply 18):
sitting on it for a quiet release

Nothing about this release is going to be quiet!

Quoting AceFreighter (Reply 6):
I hear the AAIB report should be out in September.

Let's see. I'm hoping for a high quality forensic job with a probable cause if not a definitive cause, and I'm confident that we'll (eventually) get one - it takes as long as it takes...


User currently offlineBCAL From United Kingdom, joined Jun 2004, 3384 posts, RR: 15
Reply 20, posted (6 years 3 months 3 weeks 3 days 18 hours ago) and read 6270 times:

Seems that people are posting replies without having read the AAIB Special Bulletins (links for which I posted in an early reply) or done sufficient research

Quoting Tomaeroeng (Reply 13):
Presumably they are reluctant to hint at fuel contamination as reason for the accident



Quote:
Several fuel samples were taken from the fuel tanks, pipe lines and filter housings prior to the examination of the fuel system and these are currently being examined at specialist laboratories. Initial results confirm that the fuel conforms to Jet A-1 specifications and that there were no signs of contamination or unusual levels of water content. A sump sample taken from the left and right main fuel tanks shortly after the accident revealed no significant quantities of water. Samples from the centre tank had been contaminated by fire fighting foam and hydraulic fluid: this contamination was a consequence of the rupture of the right rear wall of the centre tank.

Source: AAIB Special Bulletin : 1/2008 page 4

Quoting Tomaeroeng (Reply 13):
Another reason is that they cannot reconstruct the damage to the pumps in the lab, so they dont know what happened.



Quote:
The primary challenge at Boeing is to create the environmental conditions experienced on the flight over Siberia, at altitudes up to 40,000 ft, in which to test a representation of the aircraft fuel system. These tests are collectively aimed at understanding and, if possible, replicating the fuel system performance experienced on the day and the potential for formation of restrictions. In addition, work has commenced on developing a more complete understanding of the dynamics of the fuel as it flows from the fuel tank to the engine.

Source: AAIB Special Bulletin: 3/2008 page 3

Quoting Tonystan (Reply 18):
No directives or notices to 777 operators have been issued

Safety Recommendation 2008-009 was issued shortly after the accident.

Source: AAIB Special Bulletin: 1/2008 page 6

Quoting Tonystan (Reply 18):
I was having a conversation with my Dad yesterday (retired fleet captain) and we both think that everything has become suspiciously quiet on this subject

The media has lost interest in the matter until something positive comes up. Investigations can take months, if not years, before an answer can be found (how long did it take USA to establish the cause of TWA800 when they had all resources working flat out on the disaster?). However, if your Dad was a retired fleet captain, surely he would know this and be aware of the active thread on Pprune that has had 1,679 replies and over 384,000 views .

Quoting Tonystan (Reply 18):
his expert opinion would suggest pilot error or something unique to the carriers operation

This has already been ruled out by accident investigators as evidenced by readings from the FDR and CVR.

Quoting Par13del (Reply 17):
where is all this high tech knowledge and equipment that we hear about all the time, how many advancements we have made etc. etc. etc. etc. all the computers in the a/c and out, with the ability to read and verify data etc. and to this point still no definitive answer?

Because no individual parameter from the flight of G-YMMM has been identified to be outside previous operating experience so the investigation is concentrating on abnormal combinations of parameters and this will take a long time to collate even with all the petaflops available.



MOL on SRB's latest attack at BA: "It's like a little Chihuahua barking at a dying Labrador. Nobody cares."
User currently offlineTUGMASTER From Northern Mariana Islands, joined Jul 2004, 724 posts, RR: 9
Reply 21, posted (6 years 3 months 3 weeks 3 days 18 hours ago) and read 6248 times:



Quoting Pellegrine (Reply 12):
Well they already took the tail off, so......

As i understand it,the tail was removed by request of the guys in the TWR...as when you look across to the holding area for 27L departures, it was causing some confusion...

If you get close up to the aircraft, you will see that despite the awful circumstances in which it made it's LAST return to terra firma, you will see that the airframe is remarkably intact...

rgds

TUGMASTER.


User currently offlineTdscanuck From Canada, joined Jan 2006, 12709 posts, RR: 80
Reply 22, posted (6 years 3 months 3 weeks 3 days 12 hours ago) and read 6060 times:



Quoting Tangowhisky (Reply 11):
But I have always asked myself why are they so quiet about this?

"They" who? It's only the AAIB that has the authority to release anything. Not BA, not Boeing, not Rolls.

Quoting Par13del (Reply 17):
It does beg one question, where is all this high tech knowledge and equipment that we hear about all the time, how many advancements we have made etc. etc. etc. etc. all the computers in the a/c and out, with the ability to read and verify data etc. and to this point still no definitive answer?

I don't think it begs the question at all. You're talking about a fleet with an almost flawless safety record (the only hull loss had zero fatalities). Nobody claims that technology solves everything and we're a long long long way from instrumenting every variable on the airplane. The fact that this investigation has taken so long, as compared to others, is a testament to how weird and unanticipated a condition this must have been, precisely because they haven't release a report despite having virtually all the data that's available to get.

Tom.


User currently offlineTomaeroeng From Germany, joined Nov 2006, 33 posts, RR: 0
Reply 23, posted (6 years 3 months 3 weeks 3 days 4 hours ago) and read 5902 times:



Quoting BCAL (Reply 20):
Seems that people are posting replies without having read the AAIB Special Bulletins (links for which I posted in an early reply) or done sufficient research

BCAL,

I have read those reports, even though it has been some time since then. I sincerely apologize if I do not meet your requirements on thorough research.

However, if we are already nitpicking every word in a sentence, the report says:

"Initial results confirm that the fuel conforms to Jet A-1"

Initial results are not final, hence we still have the possibility of contaminated fuel.

"The primary challenge at Boeing is to create the environmental conditions experienced on the flight over Siberia"

It is a challenge to reconstruct the conditions at FL400... So whats wrong with my post quoting it may be hard or even impossible to exactly imitate the environmental conditions at a specific point in time onboard that 777? Every parameter has to match the condition in flight, and that is definitely not an easy task to accomplish, even in a sophisticated lab.

Tom


User currently offlineBCAL From United Kingdom, joined Jun 2004, 3384 posts, RR: 15
Reply 24, posted (6 years 3 months 3 weeks 3 days ago) and read 5766 times:

Tomaeroeng

No apology was called for nor have I set any criteria for research so maybe I am the one who has to say sorry!  footinmouth 

Just one thought. If they initially cannot find any evidence of contaminated fuel, it is perhaps unlikely they would find it later using the same sample, n'est ce pas?

AFAIK (and without again reading the Bulletins) Boeing are currently monitoring a number of flights over Siberia to see if they can find abnormal parameters in fuel flow etc.



MOL on SRB's latest attack at BA: "It's like a little Chihuahua barking at a dying Labrador. Nobody cares."
25 Ferengi80 : Does anyone here think the Prime Minister might actually be to blame for the crash? I'm serious here, the aircraft crashed shortly after the Prime Min
26 Yellowtail : Everything is possible....but other flights were around too without any problems....
27 LHR27C :
28 Tonystan : Yes, and he knows from experience that 8 months is a long time to go without any significant break through into an incident where the wreck is comple
29 Tangowhisky : Tonystan, I am with your dad on this one. There are only a very small number of reasons two engines will not respond to power within seconds for a wel
30 FlyCaledonian : Take it you know a good libel lawyer?
31 Tangowhisky : Actually not at all. I worked as an engineer for many year in electronic and digital engine fuel control systems, and have moved on to aviation busin
32 BA84 : The flight number was BA 38. BA84
33 Post contains links Revelation : Yeah, but according to the referenced link: So, indeed a recommendation has been issued, but it isn't addressing the root cause of the accident, just
34 Post contains links and images Flynavy : None I've found yet, but there is a photo of it in the database. It can be seen parked at ARG in this photo: View Large View Medium Photo © Gary Cha
35 Pellegrine : Seems true. The SB 1/2008 report stated that there was 10,500 kg of fuel on board at time of "landing". It also states that the plane left PEK with 7
36 Revelation : Sorry - double post - deleted...[Edited 2008-08-29 13:05:02]
37 Tangowhisky : Indeed this is what was documented in the report with the sources that the plane had ample fuel. This is where I have hard time to deal with this as
38 FrmrCAPCADET : As the rate of catastrophic accidents has plummeted over the years in well maintained airliners the infrequent accidents are more and more likely to b
39 Tonystan : Thanks for that clarification Revelation, I missed that one. But indeed, it does not respond to the reasons for the event. I sometimes wonder if ther
40 Pellegrine : I understand where you're coming from but I find it hard to believe the AAIB would fabricate a very critical piece of information in their report (am
41 Tdscanuck : I read "initial results" as "we're not finished with the investigation but this is what we know." Both interpretations could fit the language. Assumi
42 Tangowhisky : B777 has been around for how many years now, or has flown how many millions of hours? That would lead to operational error. But then again, what are
43 Spacecadet : Doesn't really matter. The 737 had also been flying for quite a while before its rudders started flipping out (hydraulic actuator that could freeze a
44 Haggis79 : So if I got your ramblings right you think the authorities are lying about the amount of fuel still in the tank when crashing? But tell me, why do yo
45 Tangowhisky : I was away for the long weekend. So allow me to respond to you. My argument is that there was nothing wrong with this plane in design. That means tha
46 Post contains links and images Dahlgardo : This is how N703BA looked a couple of months ago. Couldn't find a better angle unfortunately. br Jakob Walnut Ridge 31-5-08 [Edited 2008-09-02 11:03:
47 Katekebo : Sucking in air does NOT cause cavitation. Cavitation appears when the prsssure inside the pump drops below the vapor pressure of the fluid. Actually,
48 Tdscanuck : They're still finding design errors in 727's...you think they've found them all on the 777? Temperature, specifically. Related to both waxing (probab
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