Sponsor Message:
Civil Aviation Forum
My Starred Topics | Profile | New Topic | Forum Index | Help | Search 
F9 Reports $3.2m Loss For July  
User currently offlineEnilria From Canada, joined Feb 2008, 7718 posts, RR: 15
Posted (6 years 3 months 4 weeks 1 day 11 hours ago) and read 3926 times:

JULY RESULTS
Frontier reported a net loss of $3,247,000 for July. The company did eke out a $1.2 million operating profit for the month.

The net result is inclusive of a $7.8 million gain on "restricted investments" which is apparently a hedging gain.

To date during reorganization (mid-April) operating losses have totaled $30.7 million and the total net loss is $50.5 million.

CASH
Total cash increased to $64.5 million as of 7/31 from $59.3 million on 6/30. The increase is inclusive of $11.5 million in aircraft PDPs refunded and the sale of $3.7 million in short-term investments. Absent those external transactions cash would have decreased by $10 million during the month.

To date, total expert fees related to Ch11 exceed $10 million.

OTHER NOTES
The DIP agreement matures on April 1, 2009. Republic and the other lenders collected a $1.7 million fee on August 8th from Frontier as a result of the DIP agreement.

[Edited 2008-08-28 17:03:53]

38 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlinePetteri From United States of America, joined Aug 2007, 283 posts, RR: 0
Reply 1, posted (6 years 3 months 4 weeks 1 day 11 hours ago) and read 3896 times:



Quoting Enilria (Thread starter):
The company did eke out a $1.2 million operating profit for the month.

I take this as a very good sign. With fuel still at very prices to post an operating profit is no mean feat. Things are really trending in the right direction. Still some very interesting times ahead though!



The above comments are my personal comments and in no way should be viewed as the views,policy or statements of JetBlue
User currently offlineEnilria From Canada, joined Feb 2008, 7718 posts, RR: 15
Reply 2, posted (6 years 3 months 4 weeks 1 day 11 hours ago) and read 3873 times:



Quoting Petteri (Reply 1):
I take this as a very good sign.

If August maintained that momentum it would be a very good sign. We'll know August unit revenue results in about 10 days. If it stayed within 7% of July unit revenue there is a good chance they made an operating profit in August.


User currently offlineLAXintl From United States of America, joined May 2000, 26168 posts, RR: 50
Reply 3, posted (6 years 3 months 4 weeks 1 day 11 hours ago) and read 3862 times:

Yes good sign they managed near breakeven, however that honeymoon is over as we enter the low season where revenues decline, and cash burn increases under even normal circumstances without the added pressure of high oil prices, and a lethargic economy.

In my view something else major will have to occur by New Years, as continued losses and cash burn cannot be sustained indefinitely. So either sell more planes to fund the piggy bank, reduce the network further, make a deal with another carrier etc..



From the desert to the sea, to all of Southern California
User currently offlinePetteri From United States of America, joined Aug 2007, 283 posts, RR: 0
Reply 4, posted (6 years 3 months 4 weeks 1 day 11 hours ago) and read 3859 times:



Quoting Enilria (Reply 2):
If August maintained that momentum it would be a very good sign.

I'm going to quote that! If August does turn out well, I want a Frontier positive quote from Enilria on record!

We'll see....



The above comments are my personal comments and in no way should be viewed as the views,policy or statements of JetBlue
User currently offlineDLPMMM From United States of America, joined Apr 2005, 3602 posts, RR: 10
Reply 5, posted (6 years 3 months 4 weeks 1 day 11 hours ago) and read 3830 times:



Quoting LAXintl (Reply 3):

For some reason, I have found myself agreeing with you more often.


User currently offlineFrontierflyer From United States of America, joined Aug 2007, 216 posts, RR: 1
Reply 6, posted (6 years 3 months 4 weeks 1 day 10 hours ago) and read 3774 times:



Quoting LAXintl (Reply 3):
reduce the network further, make a deal with another carrier etc..

I tottally agree! They need a partner desperately, to help feed Lynx during the busy ski season. Maybe add some more Mexico destinations and add frequency.


User currently offlineMariner From New Zealand, joined Nov 2001, 25698 posts, RR: 85
Reply 7, posted (6 years 3 months 4 weeks 1 day 10 hours ago) and read 3774 times:
Support Airliners.net - become a First Class Member!



Quoting LAXintl (Reply 3):
In my view something else major will have to occur by New Years, as continued losses and cash burn cannot be sustained indefinitely.

There are a dozen rumors of something "major" out there. Some of them may - stress "may"- have some validity.

Some of them might be a surprise. Some of them could be wrong - rumors often are.

I prefer to let it all play out. It has been an extraordinary ride, so far. I don't think it is over.

mariner



aeternum nauta
User currently offlineTheGreatChecko From United States of America, joined Mar 2004, 1130 posts, RR: 2
Reply 8, posted (6 years 3 months 4 weeks 1 day 9 hours ago) and read 3664 times:

Quoting Frontierflyer (Reply 6):
They need a partner desperately, to help feed Lynx during the busy ski season. Maybe add some more Mexico destinations and add frequency.

I disagree, the flights are full and partner or not, Lynx still only has 10 aircraft. I have a feeling we will hear some more Lynx destinations announced soon, but I don't know how adding more feed for Lynx will help any, Frontier already interlines with numerous airlines, including United.

BTW, anyone know a good CASM number for the Lynx ops? Seems like mainline is well publicized, but Lynx remains a mystery.

Checko

[Edited 2008-08-28 19:06:27]


"A pilot's plane she is. She will love you if you deserve it, and try to kill you if you don't...She is the Mighty Q400"
User currently offlineN7371f From United States of America, joined Jul 2008, 1751 posts, RR: 12
Reply 9, posted (6 years 3 months 4 weeks 1 day 9 hours ago) and read 3565 times:
Support Airliners.net - become a First Class Member!

If you look at F9's numbers from July - notice how much their revenue increased versus the loss of operating costs for the Republic venture. July was the first month with Republic off the books. Of course there's plenty more at play with the revenue but the comparison is interesting - far better revenue growth in the face of far fewer flights and destinations.

User currently offlineMariner From New Zealand, joined Nov 2001, 25698 posts, RR: 85
Reply 10, posted (6 years 3 months 4 weeks 1 day 9 hours ago) and read 3565 times:
Support Airliners.net - become a First Class Member!



Quoting TheGreatChecko (Reply 8):
I have a feeling we will hear some more Lynx destinations announced soon,

One or two, maybe, but the Lynx fleet must be fairly tight by December as there are one or two frequency additions to accommodate, presumably for the winter season.

ICT goes back up to 3 x daily next week, but - presently, at least - drops back to 2 x daily in mid-December.

mariner



aeternum nauta
User currently offlineEnilria From Canada, joined Feb 2008, 7718 posts, RR: 15
Reply 11, posted (6 years 3 months 4 weeks 1 day 8 hours ago) and read 3538 times:



Quoting TheGreatChecko (Reply 8):
I have a feeling we will hear some more Lynx destinations announced soon

They don't have any more aircraft coming any time soon, so that would probably mean existing stations would have to close or shrink. I don't think getting financing for their Q400 options is a priority right now.

Quoting Mariner (Reply 7):
Some of them may - stress "may"- have some validity.

The rumors I've heard are:

1) LYNX
Republic buys Lynx, possibly code shares with both UA and F9 to Mountains
(multiple sources)

2) UA involved with Republic
UA supposedly urged Republic to do the DIP deal...let your mind wander

3) Southwest
Southwest would invest in Frontier and send them transborder from WN hubs ala ATA. This is an oldie, but the DIP financing could have changed things. It is very interesting that WN did not add anything in DEN in the most recent schedule change...in fact, they cut 3 RTs. This could signal a strategy change RE Denver. I know WN has said "no acquisitions"!

Quoting LAXintl (Reply 3):
Yes good sign they managed near breakeven, however that honeymoon is over as we enter the low season where revenues decline

I think it is interesting that all things being equal (removing external cash generation), they were $10 million cash negative in July.

Quoting Petteri (Reply 4):
I'm going to quote that! If August does turn out well, I want a Frontier positive quote from Enilria on record!

August is key. If (P)RASM falls more than 7% from July it is going to be a rough Fall. Last year it fell 5.3%. The reason I say 7% is that fuel coming down should give them more room. I think they can be down 7% and eke out another operating profit. They did have that big hedging gain in July so I don't know whether they have that in August. If there is no comparable hedging gain it is unlikely they could report an operating profit.

Quoting TheGreatChecko (Reply 8):
BTW, anyone know a good CASM number for the Lynx ops?

My estimate is 20.0-21.5 cents during July at current stage.


User currently offlineMariner From New Zealand, joined Nov 2001, 25698 posts, RR: 85
Reply 12, posted (6 years 3 months 4 weeks 1 day 8 hours ago) and read 3528 times:
Support Airliners.net - become a First Class Member!



Quoting Enilria (Reply 11):
The rumors I've heard are:

I heard some of those guesses, and I have heard a whole bunch of other rumors. And, as you know, my sources are pretty good.

I heard one just this morning - not from one of my sources, but still fairly reliable - involving United, but in some other capacity.

Quoting Enilria (Reply 11):
let your mind wander

Why? What Sean Menke is actually doing is infinitely more interesting than most of the rumors.

mariner



aeternum nauta
User currently offlineEnilria From Canada, joined Feb 2008, 7718 posts, RR: 15
Reply 13, posted (6 years 3 months 4 weeks 1 day 8 hours ago) and read 3510 times:

BTW, is it true or not true that Frontier only has 12 months to reorganize? Remember, when NW and DL filed it was in the newspapers that if they filed prior to an upcoming legislative deadline they would avoid a new law restricting Ch11 restructuring? Is that law in effect? Did it really impose a 12 month deadline? Who knows the details?

I ask because Menke made reference to a June 2009 emergence at the time of the Perseus deal, but recent documents focus on April 2009.


User currently offlineEnilria From Canada, joined Feb 2008, 7718 posts, RR: 15
Reply 14, posted (6 years 3 months 4 weeks 1 day 6 hours ago) and read 3398 times:



Quoting TheGreatChecko (Reply 8):
I have a feeling we will hear some more Lynx destinations announced soon

Speaking of Lynx, Frontier reduced DEN-ABQ to 4 roundtrips and increased DEN-RAP to 3 RTs for the Winter in the OAG this week. RAP must have improved a lot. Winter is usually tough there.


User currently offlinePetteri From United States of America, joined Aug 2007, 283 posts, RR: 0
Reply 15, posted (6 years 3 months 4 weeks 10 hours ago) and read 3112 times:



Quoting Enilria (Reply 13):
BTW, is it true or not true that Frontier only has 12 months to reorganize?

I am under the impression that the 12 months limitation is for personal bankruptcy.

On another note, according to the court docket, Frontier and the City of Denver, have agreed to have a few gates and two ticket counter positions returned to the airport. Also if I understand the document correctly the rent that Frontier pays for the gates will be reduced.

This is more good news as when the fall schedule takes effect F9 won't be needing the extra gate space. More money saved.



The above comments are my personal comments and in no way should be viewed as the views,policy or statements of JetBlue
User currently offlineEnilria From Canada, joined Feb 2008, 7718 posts, RR: 15
Reply 16, posted (6 years 3 months 4 weeks 10 hours ago) and read 3085 times:



Quoting Petteri (Reply 15):
I am under the impression that the 12 months limitation is for personal bankruptcy.

On another note, according to the court docket, Frontier and the City of Denver, have agreed to have a few gates and two ticket counter positions returned to the airport. Also if I understand the document correctly the rent that Frontier pays for the gates will be reduced.

This is more good news as when the fall schedule takes effect F9 won't be needing the extra gate space. More money saved.

I'm in the process of creating a thread for that news item. Should be up in a few minutes. There are some more details.


User currently offlineEnilria From Canada, joined Feb 2008, 7718 posts, RR: 15
Reply 17, posted (6 years 3 months 4 weeks 10 hours ago) and read 3063 times:



Quoting Petteri (Reply 15):
I am under the impression that the 12 months limitation is for personal bankruptcy.

Here is a snippet from an article published in 2005 when NW/DL filed...

There is little doubt that Delta and Northwest will seek judicial sanction for a similar theft of billions of dollars, leaving retired workers bereft of a decent income or any form of economic security. They are likely as well to go after the health benefits of both active and retired workers.

The airlines timed their bankruptcy filings to beat an October 17 deadline, when new, more restrictive bankruptcy laws go into effect that make it more difficult for companies to cancel their debts. Filing in advance of the deadline will also—by no means coincidentally—allow the companies to hand their top executives lucrative bonuses for staying on while the court process unfolds.


User currently offlineLoneStarMike From United States of America, joined Jul 2000, 3868 posts, RR: 33
Reply 18, posted (6 years 3 months 4 weeks 9 hours ago) and read 3027 times:



Quoting Enilria (Reply 13):
BTW, is it true or not true that Frontier only has 12 months to reorganize? Remember, when NW and DL filed it was in the newspapers that if they filed prior to an upcoming legislative deadline they would avoid a new law restricting Ch11 restructuring? Is that law in effect? Did it really impose a 12 month deadline? Who knows the details?

Yeah, you mentioned in other threads that Frontier only had 12 months to emerge from bankruptcy and I remember thinking at the time that you were wrong and that it was 18 months. I never said anything, though, because I couldn't find anything to back that up.

I finally found a link to a story about Northwest filing bankruptcy.

Quote:
Experts said one other factor may have pushed Northwest: a change in the bankruptcy law, due to take effect Oct. 17. Under the new law, Northwest management would have only 18 months to work out a reorganization plan without competing plans from creditors. United has gone for nearly three years without facing such a challenge in its bankruptcy proceedings under the existing law.

LoneStarMike


User currently offlineEnilria From Canada, joined Feb 2008, 7718 posts, RR: 15
Reply 19, posted (6 years 3 months 4 weeks 8 hours ago) and read 2976 times:



Quoting LoneStarMike (Reply 18):
Yeah, you mentioned in other threads that Frontier only had 12 months to emerge from bankruptcy and I remember thinking at the time that you were wrong and that it was 18 months.

I appreciate the correction. I did read recently that a company now has a maximum of 12 months to file a plan of reorganization under the new law. After that, any party can submit their own unsolicited plans. Is that what you have seen as well?

It's almost like these laws were changed specifically because of United's lengthy stay in Ch11.  Smile


User currently offlineLoneStarMike From United States of America, joined Jul 2000, 3868 posts, RR: 33
Reply 20, posted (6 years 3 months 4 weeks 8 hours ago) and read 2963 times:



Quoting Enilria (Reply 19):
I did read recently that a company now has a maximum of 12 months to file a plan of reorganization under the new law. After that, any party can submit their own unsolicited plans.

I haven't read anything about a maximum of 12 months to file a plan of reorganization - at least not with airlines, unless this is some newer law that was passed after Frontier filed for bankruptcy.

Going back to when Frontier filed for bankruptcy, I found other articles like this one from the Rocky Mountain News that stated

"Frontier expects its bankruptcy to last from nine to 18 months."

Quoting Enilria (Reply 19):

It's almost like these laws were changed specifically because of United's lengthy stay in Ch11.

I think that's exactly why they were changed.

LoneStarMike


User currently offlineLAXintl From United States of America, joined May 2000, 26168 posts, RR: 50
Reply 21, posted (6 years 3 months 4 weeks 7 hours ago) and read 2933 times:



Quoting LoneStarMike (Reply 20):
I think that's exactly why they were changed.

Trust me UA had nothing to do with BK law adjustment by Congress.

The law change was primarily driven based to tighten personal bankrupties and how many manage to abuse the system (thanks huge BK industry pushed by attorneys).
Only at the behest of various lobbiest were ammendments made to corporate BK laws mostly in effort to protect workers and creditors to make it more difficult to dump things like pensions, and other types of debts, and reorganization time frames.

Anyhow if you think, United 3 year process was long, there have been cases lasting as long as 20 years, with many dozen corporations lingering in the 5-10 year range. For instance Enron case still continues since 2001, while other big corporations such as LTV took 7 years.



From the desert to the sea, to all of Southern California
User currently offlineEnilria From Canada, joined Feb 2008, 7718 posts, RR: 15
Reply 22, posted (6 years 3 months 4 weeks 6 hours ago) and read 2879 times:



Quoting LoneStarMike (Reply 20):
I haven't read anything about a maximum of 12 months to file a plan of reorganization - at least not with airlines, unless this is some newer law that was passed after Frontier filed for bankruptcy.

Given that nobody is rushing forward with chapter and verse from the bankruptcy code, I don't necessarily trust the article I read (journalists are less reliable than a.net)...but the bankruptcy could still last beyond 12 (or 18) months. The company could choose to wait until after the exclusivity period ends to file a plan. Additionally, the company does not exit upon submission of a plan. I think UA was in Ch11 for months after the plan was filed.


User currently offlineUnited1 From United States of America, joined Oct 2003, 6132 posts, RR: 9
Reply 23, posted (6 years 3 months 4 weeks 5 hours ago) and read 2872 times:



Quoting Enilria (Reply 22):
I don't necessarily trust the article I read (journalists are less reliable than a.net)...but the bankruptcy could still last beyond 12 (or 18) months.

The new Chapter 11 laws give companies 18 months to reorganise supposedly that deadline is meant to be inflexible.

Quoting LoneStarMike (Reply 20):
Quoting Enilria (Reply 19):

It's almost like these laws were changed specifically because of United's lengthy stay in Ch11.

I think that's exactly why they were changed.

Had nothing to do with UA, as LAX mentioned there are plenty of other corporations that have been in BK much longer then UAs case. UAs case was barely even the longest airline BK in history.



Semper Fi - PowerPoint makes us stupid.
User currently offlineEnilria From Canada, joined Feb 2008, 7718 posts, RR: 15
Reply 24, posted (6 years 3 months 4 weeks 5 hours ago) and read 2853 times:



Quoting United1 (Reply 23):
Had nothing to do with UA, as LAX mentioned there are plenty of other corporations that have been in BK much longer then UAs case.

It's hard to tell exactly why a law gets passed since their are often many layers of motivations, but I agree with you that sometimes we forget there are other industries using Ch11 besides this one. My smiley face in my original comment was meant to say my comment was tongue in cheek.

Frankly, I wish they would abolish Ch11 for this industry. It's supposed to be survival of the fittest, not cats with nine lives. Frankly, the unions should be first in line to make that happen. Sure, you'd lose a big carrier periodically, but a filing would mean relief for other carriers rather than the prospect of a competitive filing to catch back up with the newest wave of cost reductions.


25 AirframeAS : That is not accurate. The Denver News channel here in DEN reported that WN is going to be expanding out of DEN aggressively in 2008 into 2009. No sou
26 Post contains links Mariner : In this case, it may be Denver Channel which is wrong: http://www.rockymountainnews.com/new...hwest-to-trim-3-flights-in-denver/ RMN: "Southwest to t
27 LoneStarMike : In making that claim, I believe the Denver News channel is comparing the number of departures Soiuthwest has today (84) to what they will have in ear
28 Mariner : It may be. But the poster questioned whether the three flights were being cut, he said it isn't accurate. Nor, to my knowledge, did Southwest add any
29 LoneStarMike : Agree, but the point I was trying to make was that the statement made by the Denver News channel was not incorrect in the context in which it was mad
30 Post contains links Mariner : I'm sure that will happen, although they may slow it down and concentrate on revenue growth for a while. Southwest has an interesting problem - its o
31 AirframeAS : That is what I meant. WN is still expanding at DEN no matter how one looks at it. 3 flights cut are moot.
32 Mariner : Actually, I think they are quite important. At least two of them (LAS, MDW) are on mature Southwest routes. The adjustment suggests that Southwest ha
33 Airbusaddict : Mariner, this is a question for you since in my personal opinion you have great knowledge of Frontier. Since Frontier seems to be slowly emerging out
34 Enilria : Since Mariner didn't, I'll answer. In general I think that FSD isn't a bad idea, BUT my bet is that they are not eager to re-enter the same area with
35 Post contains links Petteri : Here are the August numbers: The whole press release is here: http://flyfrontier.mediaroom.com/index.php?s=press_releases&item=1502
36 Mariner : Ahhh - too tough to call. We know that Frontier has an interest in that area (SUX). We know that Lynx will be expanded. But there are too many unknow
37 Enilria : " target=_blank>http://flyfrontier.mediaroom.com/ind...=1502 My guess of 7% was pretty good, but they missed by a bit. It was down 7.6% from the prio
38 AirportGuy1971 : And what were they paying for fuel last year? They've improved their numbers YOY with fuel still much higher than they paid last year and you still f
Top Of Page
Forum Index

This topic is archived and can not be replied to any more.

Printer friendly format

Similar topics:More similar topics...
UAL Reports $93M Loss For May posted Wed Jun 29 2005 05:05:55 by Scotron11
CO Reports $66 Million Loss For 1Q posted Thu Apr 20 2006 13:03:57 by Cory6188
Boeing's Weekly ORder Update For July 29, 2008 posted Thu Jul 31 2008 08:06:12 by NYC777
Emirates A380 Delivery Still On Time For July 28? posted Fri Jul 18 2008 19:50:11 by BP1
Continental Reports Q2 Loss - $3mil posted Thu Jul 17 2008 04:08:16 by LAXintl
Delta Reports Q2 Loss - $1.0Bil posted Wed Jul 16 2008 04:41:05 by LAXintl
Boeing Orders Update For July 1, 2008 posted Thu Jul 3 2008 08:24:08 by NYC777
How Bad Is $16M Loss For Skybus posted Tue Dec 18 2007 19:28:24 by BillReid
European Airport Statistics For July 2007 posted Fri Aug 31 2007 01:48:51 by Nycfly75
Hawaiian Air Reports Q2 Loss posted Mon Jul 30 2007 22:10:54 by Laxintl