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NWA Fleet Cuts. Specific Mix?  
User currently offlineN7371f From United States of America, joined Jul 2008, 1738 posts, RR: 12
Posted (6 years 1 month 3 weeks 4 days 20 hours ago) and read 3389 times:
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For the couple of well-versed NWA posters out there...

I'm curious if a final list is drawn up of which planes are being permanently withdrawn from use. When NWA announced its capacity reduction it alluded to (14 I believe) domestic aircraft, being a mix of A319/320's and B757's.

I know Fleet #5509 N509US is already in Marana and FlightAware shows two additional B757 ferry flights very recently. How many more retirements are coming from the 757 fleet and what's the mix of Airbus'?

Doug Steenland was quoted at a investors conference that these planes were permanent retirements and the aircraft would be sold.

Any insight much appreciated!

Also...has NWA decided on which ship numbers from the A319 fleet are going to the NBA contract?

21 replies: All unread, jump to last
 
User currently offlineDTWAGENT From United States of America, joined Jan 2006, 1283 posts, RR: 0
Reply 1, posted (6 years 1 month 3 weeks 4 days 20 hours ago) and read 3360 times:

HI I had heard from a friend at NWA that the 14 they are going to remove are to be the DC-9's.
Now he did not say it was going to happen now or when the merger was approved.


User currently offlinePilotboi From United States of America, joined Sep 2007, 2366 posts, RR: 9
Reply 2, posted (6 years 1 month 3 weeks 4 days 18 hours ago) and read 3166 times:

If you check my list of DL/NW aircraft: http://www.koolaiders.com/files/Ships.htm

Goto the NW tab (at the bottom), then scroll down to the DC-9 section, then scroll right, you'll see a list of DC-9s that have been removed from service.

The list hasn't been updated in a few weeks. I will upload an update within the next few days.


User currently offlineFlyDreamliner From United States of America, joined Jan 2006, 2759 posts, RR: 15
Reply 3, posted (6 years 1 month 3 weeks 4 days 18 hours ago) and read 3140 times:

I'm flying on a DC-9-50 in December, and I suspect it'll be my last. DL says they'll keep the DC-9s on for a while... and what I suspect is that they'll keep them on to fill that gap for a while as they wait on replacements (either C-series or E-jets) and they'll retire them as they require major checks. Likewise, the older 757s and A320/319s will go as they run into major checks. Obviously, new Delta won't need all of the 757s (they'll have a ton) as well as all of the A320s (the older ones, at least) as they have new 738s coming. The guys at NW are less airline men than just financial engineers. As an NW pilot told me while I was on vacation, management at NW less runs an airline and more uses it as a conduit to get money.


"Let the world change you, and you can change the world"
User currently offlinePSU.DTW.SCE From United States of America, joined Jan 2002, 7657 posts, RR: 27
Reply 4, posted (6 years 1 month 3 weeks 4 days 17 hours ago) and read 3093 times:

The aircraft set to leave the fleet between Aug-Dec 2008 are as follows:

35 DC-9-30
10 A319/A320
4 757-200 (5500 series)

Quoting DTWAGENT (Reply 1):
HI I had heard from a friend at NWA that the 14 they are going to remove are to be the DC-9's.
Now he did not say it was going to happen now or when the merger was approved.

The DC-9's were already included in the earlier announcement. The follow-up announcement of 14 additional frames was for A319/A320 & 752's.

Quoting FlyDreamliner (Reply 3):
I'm flying on a DC-9-50 in December, and I suspect it'll be my last. DL says they'll keep the DC-9s on for a while... and what I suspect is that they'll keep them on to fill that gap for a while as they wait on replacements (either C-series or E-jets) and they'll retire them as they require major checks.

There are no further additional pending DC-9 retirements after the 35 set to leave over the next 4 months. No -40's or -50's are leaving, and no more additional -30's at this time. DL has a significant interest in keepin the DC-9 fleet for the short/medium term. They have a significant gap in their fleet between the 76 seater (CRJ-900 & E-Jets) and the 738's & MD-80's. The 73G's are a niche aircraft for the time being. NW brings the 100-125 seat DC-9's as well as a sizable amount of 125 seat A319's. The DC-9's are still a viable solution in the short to medium term for NW+DL.

Quoting FlyDreamliner (Reply 3):
Likewise, the older 757s and A320/319s will go as they run into major checks. Obviously, new Delta won't need all of the 757s (they'll have a ton) as well as all of the A320s (the older ones, at least) as they have new 738s coming.

Don't look for DL to be shedding a significant number of 757's or A320's in the short term. The biggest fall-out will be with the 50 seaters.

Quoting FlyDreamliner (Reply 3):
The guys at NW are less airline men than just financial engineers. As an NW pilot told me while I was on vacation, management at NW less runs an airline and more uses it as a conduit to get money.

Airlines are in business to make a profit. You could say the same about any airline, not just NW.


User currently offlineBobnwa From United States of America, joined Dec 2000, 6493 posts, RR: 9
Reply 5, posted (6 years 1 month 3 weeks 4 days 10 hours ago) and read 2868 times:



Quoting FlyDreamliner (Reply 3):
The guys at NW are less airline men than just financial engineers. As an NW pilot told me while I was on vacation, management at NW less runs an airline and more uses it as a conduit to get money.

The pilot was wrong, the purpose of an airline is to give pilots an aircraft to fly, so they can make a very good living. Everything else is secondary to that.


User currently offlineBurnsie28 From United States of America, joined Aug 2004, 7553 posts, RR: 8
Reply 6, posted (6 years 1 month 3 weeks 4 days 8 hours ago) and read 2708 times:



Quoting N7371f (Thread starter):
Doug Steenland was quoted at a investors conference that these planes were permanent retirements and the aircraft would be sold

Thats odd, because it was told to NW employees that the A320 and 757's are just being parked for the winter season, now the DC-9's I know some are being sold.



"Some People Just Know How To Fly"- Best slogan ever, RIP NW 1926-2009
User currently offlineFlyDreamliner From United States of America, joined Jan 2006, 2759 posts, RR: 15
Reply 7, posted (6 years 1 month 3 weeks 4 days 7 hours ago) and read 2627 times:



Quoting PSU.DTW.SCE (Reply 4):

Quoting FlyDreamliner (Reply 3):
Likewise, the older 757s and A320/319s will go as they run into major checks. Obviously, new Delta won't need all of the 757s (they'll have a ton) as well as all of the A320s (the older ones, at least) as they have new 738s coming.

Don't look for DL to be shedding a significant number of 757's or A320's in the short term. The biggest fall-out will be with the 50 seaters.

For sure there will be cuts on the 50s seaters, but I think fleet wide, as older A320s and 757s come into expensive major checks (d checks maybe), they will probably retire some (as they've retired 757s and A320s already). Nothing fast, nothing major, just slow and incremental. As for the DC-9s... they are just around until DL gets ahold of something new to replace them.



"Let the world change you, and you can change the world"
User currently offlineWA707atMSP From United States of America, joined Oct 2006, 2247 posts, RR: 8
Reply 8, posted (6 years 1 month 3 weeks 4 days 6 hours ago) and read 2542 times:



Quoting PSU.DTW.SCE (Reply 4):
DL has a significant interest in keepin the DC-9 fleet for the short/medium term. They have a significant gap in their fleet between the 76 seater (CRJ-900 & E-Jets) and the 738's & MD-80's. The 73G's are a niche aircraft for the time being. NW brings the 100-125 seat DC-9's as well as a sizable amount of 125 seat A319's. The DC-9's are still a viable solution in the short to medium term for NW+DL.

I think the DC-9s are going to be around for at least another 4-5 years, unless (A) jet fuel goes up significantly, or (B) the merged airline downsizes more than planned. They fill a niche no other aircraft in the fleet can fill, and because they are amortized, they are a source of cheap lift.

I still think at least some of the DC-9s will be around until Boeing's 737 successor is launched. The merged airline will then buy one aircraft family to replace (over several years) the DC-9s, the A319s / A320s, the 737s, and the 757-200s.



Seaholm Maples are #1!
User currently offlineGsosbee From United States of America, joined Jan 2005, 825 posts, RR: 0
Reply 9, posted (6 years 1 month 3 weeks 4 days 6 hours ago) and read 2527 times:

Very good analysis WA707atMSP. The value of a paid off airplane cannot be over stated.

User currently offlineKingAir200 From United States of America, joined May 2006, 1622 posts, RR: 2
Reply 10, posted (6 years 1 month 3 weeks 4 days 5 hours ago) and read 2490 times:



Quoting N7371f (Thread starter):
Also...has NWA decided on which ship numbers from the A319 fleet are going to the NBA contract?

They have, and some of them have already started the NBA mod process.



Hey Swifty
User currently offlineCubsrule From United States of America, joined May 2004, 23148 posts, RR: 20
Reply 11, posted (6 years 1 month 3 weeks 3 days 22 hours ago) and read 2230 times:



Quoting WA707atMSP (Reply 8):
They fill a niche no other aircraft in the fleet can fill, and because they are amortized, they are a source of cheap lift.

They're also a wonderful way to seasonally adjust capacity (a point I think you may have been driving at indirectly). Of course, that requires DL to keep a critical mass of them (whatever 'critical mass' means) in the fleet permanently.



I can't decide whether I miss the tulip or the bowling shoe more
User currently offlineCAP2008 From United States of America, joined May 2007, 255 posts, RR: 2
Reply 12, posted (6 years 1 month 3 weeks 3 days 21 hours ago) and read 2185 times:



Quoting Burnsie28 (Reply 6):
I know some are being sold.

Who would buy them?



The mother of the last KC-135 pilot has yet to be born.
User currently offlineN801NW From United States of America, joined Jul 2004, 744 posts, RR: 1
Reply 13, posted (6 years 1 month 3 weeks 3 days 21 hours ago) and read 2174 times:

I was reading the NWA 2007 Annual Report a couple of days ago. I noticed that they had the 2 A320's and five A319's in the "firm orders" category with deliveries in 2010 and 2010-2011, respectively. Do they plan to accept and fly these planes or sell on delivery?

User currently offlinePSU.DTW.SCE From United States of America, joined Jan 2002, 7657 posts, RR: 27
Reply 14, posted (6 years 1 month 3 weeks 3 days 17 hours ago) and read 2034 times:



Quoting N801NW (Reply 13):
I was reading the NWA 2007 Annual Report a couple of days ago. I noticed that they had the 2 A320's and five A319's in the "firm orders" category with deliveries in 2010 and 2010-2011, respectively. Do they plan to accept and fly these planes or sell on delivery?

While they are still on "firm order" and there is nothing to say officially otherwise, my opinion is that these A319/A320's will never get delivered to NW (or DL). This order has been continually deffered now since I believe 2004/2005, that were to come in 2007 and then was pushed back now to 2010-2011. NW (DL) has no need for additional 125-150 seat aircraft - stand alone or merged. Considering NW retired & lease rejected a number of A320's during Ch. 11 and more recently has been selling unneeded A319's, they really don't need more since they have been shrinking domestic capacity.

The likely scenario could be:
1) Convert the order to X amount of A330's (2-3 perhaps)? NW+DL will likely need additional aircraft in the 250-300 seat range in the near future (neither of with the 777 or 787 is intended to fulfill)
2) Continue to deffer the order, with a deal to Airbus to commit to some aircraft at some point in the future
3) Sell the aircraft upon delivery


Post-merger NW+DL will have a ton of 125-150 seat aircraft - including DC-9-50's, A319's, 73G's, MD-88's, MD-90's, 738's, and A320's.

The DC-9-50's are a unique aircraft with no ownership cost, that still have decent economics on routes under 800 miles (~1.5 hr stage length) for a 125 seat aircraft. It is very much competitive with a A319/73G with a high lease payment.

The 73G fleet will be small in number for a while, and will be mostly primarily for ATL to Latin America / Carribean / the north part of South America

A319's are perfect for relatively thin routes over 700 miles, particularly on mid-con routes (DTW/MSP/CVG - Western US & SLC - Midwest / East Coast)

MD-88's perfect for a lot of the bread & butter workhorse routes from ATL and if desired DTW & MSP

MD-90's - relatively similar in use to the A319 /A320, but likely will continue to be mostly an SLC aircraft

738's & A320s are very similar in many aspects as a 150 seat aircraft that will continue to do what they do today


User currently offlineFlighty From United States of America, joined Apr 2007, 8634 posts, RR: 2
Reply 15, posted (6 years 1 month 3 weeks 3 days 17 hours ago) and read 2008 times:



Quoting FlyDreamliner (Reply 3):
The guys at NW are less airline men than just financial engineers. As an NW pilot told me while I was on vacation, management at NW less runs an airline and more uses it as a conduit to get money.

That's kind of funny for him to say that. Both sides of that statement seem wrong to me. Such a large company has financial activities by definition. But it seems very much an airline's airline to me... I wonder what airline he finds more "airline-y" than NWA...? A carrier with 50+ years in the Pacific, 35+ years of 747 flying....? and the operational complexities of NWA's operation, one of the world's more respected carriers logistically speaking, many would say?

Quoting Cubsrule (Reply 11):
Of course, that requires DL to keep a critical mass of them (whatever 'critical mass' means) in the fleet permanently.

They will.... the DC-9-80 ("MD80") model. Soon, it will be the worth-nothing flexible capacity jet.


User currently offlineDeltaL1011man From United States of America, joined Sep 2005, 9555 posts, RR: 14
Reply 16, posted (6 years 1 month 3 weeks 3 days 13 hours ago) and read 1902 times:



Quoting PSU.DTW.SCE (Reply 14):
While they are still on "firm order" and there is nothing to say officially otherwise, my opinion is that these A319/A320's will never get delivered to NW (or DL). This order has been continually deffered now since I believe 2004/2005, that were to come in 2007 and then was pushed back now to 2010-2011. NW (DL) has no need for additional 125-150 seat aircraft - stand alone or merged. Considering NW retired & lease rejected a number of A320's during Ch. 11 and more recently has been selling unneeded A319's, they really don't need more since they have been shrinking domestic capacity.

I don't see DL taking these but your only part right. DL will have over half of the M88 fleet that will A) be gone (very likely as they have 60+ 737NG options) or B) released (not likely due to 737 options and fuel). As for the owned M88 flight (around 50) will likely stay till Y1 but some will be pretty old (25-30 years)



yep.
User currently offlinePSU.DTW.SCE From United States of America, joined Jan 2002, 7657 posts, RR: 27
Reply 17, posted (6 years 1 month 3 weeks 3 days 10 hours ago) and read 1832 times:



Quoting DeltaL1011man (Reply 16):
I don't see DL taking these but your only part right.

Well of course there are going to be some retirements in certain fleets over the next 3-5 years - particularly the DC-9s & MD-88's, but NW+DL is going to be readjusting its fleet mix. They arent' going to be needed the same amount of 125-150 seaters that they do today. They are shifting toward less capacity by flying smaller aircraft domestically. There a lot of 125-150 seat markets in NW & DL's system that are more appropriately flown with 76-125 seaters. That extra ~25-50 seats is essentially "junk" capacity. The writing is on the wall that the 73G/738 will be the future aircraft of choice as their 125-150 seat aircraft.


User currently offlineGsosbee From United States of America, joined Jan 2005, 825 posts, RR: 0
Reply 18, posted (6 years 1 month 3 weeks 3 days 8 hours ago) and read 1735 times:



Quoting FlyDreamliner (Reply 3):
The guys at NW are less airline men than just financial engineers. As an NW pilot told me while I was on vacation, management at NW less runs an airline and more uses it as a conduit to get money.

Thus the issue at NWA, AA and UA, we (insert employee group or management) know what is going on and it is wrong because we do not understand.

Flying airplanes is a great occupation as long as you don't have to pay for the airplane or the operational costs.

It takes a matrix to run any organization. If the "finance" guys cannot raise money to pay for the fuel or the airplanes, guess what - no airline.


User currently offlineNWAESC From United States of America, joined Aug 2007, 3391 posts, RR: 9
Reply 19, posted (6 years 1 month 3 weeks 3 days 7 hours ago) and read 1720 times:



Quoting Flighty (Reply 15):
But it seems very much an airline's airline to me... I wonder what airline he finds more "airline-y" than NWA...? A carrier with 50+ years in the Pacific, 35+ years of 747 flying....? and the operational complexities of NWA's operation, one of the world's more respected carriers logistically speaking, many would say?

It was most certainly an "airline's airline" until Wilson, Checci, etc. took over. From then on, it has definitely been a conduit to get money for a select few at the top.



"Nothing ever happens here, " I said. "I just wait."
User currently offlineBobnwa From United States of America, joined Dec 2000, 6493 posts, RR: 9
Reply 20, posted (6 years 1 month 3 weeks 3 days 7 hours ago) and read 1691 times:



Quoting NWAESC (Reply 19):
It was most certainly an "airline's airline" until Wilson, Checci, etc. took over. From then on, it has definitely been a conduit to get money for a select few at the top.

For once we agree. It was a great airline till until they took over in the leveraged buyout. Before that time NWA had virtually zero debt.That is what made them so attractive for a leveraged buyout.


User currently offlineDeltaL1011man From United States of America, joined Sep 2005, 9555 posts, RR: 14
Reply 21, posted (6 years 1 month 3 weeks 3 days 1 hour ago) and read 1528 times:



Quoting PSU.DTW.SCE (Reply 17):
Well of course there are going to be some retirements in certain fleets over the next 3-5 years - particularly the DC-9s & MD-88's, but NW+DL is going to be readjusting its fleet mix. They arent' going to be needed the same amount of 125-150 seaters that they do today.

I agree but like I said about 55 out of the 115 M88s will be up on the leases by 2015. DL will have to replace at least some of them. More 73G/738s are very likely.



yep.
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