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SAS To NYC  
User currently offlineFlyguy1 From United States of America, joined Jun 1999, 1738 posts, RR: 4
Posted (13 years 4 months 3 weeks 4 days 17 hours ago) and read 1424 times:

This is something I have wondered for a few years. Why does SAS serve EWR only? Many foreign airlines serve EWR, but almost always JFK as well. Considering the lack of Scandinavia-NY flights, a route into JFK would make sense.


727, L1011, MD80, A300, 777-200, 737-300, 737-700, 747-400, 757-200, 737-800, A320. E190, E135, 767-200, CRJ9
26 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineSTT757 From United States of America, joined Mar 2000, 16829 posts, RR: 51
Reply 1, posted (13 years 4 months 3 weeks 4 days 17 hours ago) and read 1260 times:

They feel it's more conveinent to fly out of one airport in NY to consolidate their operations.

EWR offers many more domestic connections that JFK lacks,also many who study the region or have lived in the NYC area all there lives (like myself) agree EWR is way more conveinent to Manhattan than JFK.

It was true in the Eighties when SAS moved to EWR,it's true today.




Eastern Air lines flt # 701, EWR-MCO Boeing 757
User currently offlineMjb69 From United States of America, joined May 2000, 32 posts, RR: 0
Reply 2, posted (13 years 4 months 3 weeks 4 days 17 hours ago) and read 1247 times:

>>JFK lacks,also many who study the region or have lived in the NYC area all there lives (like myself) agree EWR is way more conveinent to Manhattan than JFK.

Speak for yourself. As a Manhattanite, and former Long Islander (lived in the region my whole life), EWR is nothing short of an inconvenient drag. It is ONLY convenient to those living in New Jersey! It takes a 45 minute cab ride, which costs ~$45-60 just to get there. Both JFK (by the A train) and the LGA (M60 Bus) are serviced by public transportation for $1.50. JFK is 1hr by subway, and LGA is 35min from Morningside Heights by bus. For Long Islanders, (with a population of 7 million if you count Brooklyn and Queens) getting to EWR is a guaranteed multi-hour affair.

mjb69


User currently offlineRyeFly From United States of America, joined Jun 2000, 1396 posts, RR: 0
Reply 3, posted (13 years 4 months 3 weeks 4 days 16 hours ago) and read 1229 times:

Here is a test. Delta flies to Stockholm out of JFK and SAS flies there out of EWR. They both fly 767-300's on that route. Who has better statistics?

User currently offlineCsavel From United States of America, joined Jan 2001, 1362 posts, RR: 4
Reply 4, posted (13 years 4 months 3 weeks 4 days 11 hours ago) and read 1201 times:

I must agree with Mjb69. EWR is *not* more convenient to Manhattanites. I think the growth of EWR is more to do with being able to serve *both* Manhattan and New Jersey. I live in Washington Heights and the only options to EWR are cab or an expensive charter bus. ($20.00 from Wash. Heights!) The ride on the NJ Turnpike is a disaster. LGA you can take a train and a bus. JFK you can take the A Train and then a PA courtesy bus. Of cousre,when NJ Transit builds that train station to link to EWR's monorail, all this may change.




I may be ugly. I may be an American. But don't call me an ugly American.
User currently offlineJohnnybgoode From Germany, joined Jan 2001, 2187 posts, RR: 6
Reply 5, posted (13 years 4 months 3 weeks 4 days 7 hours ago) and read 1177 times:

SAS serves EWR because of continental when they had a partnership with them, early nineties. that´s at least one reason.
if they served JFK prior to their CO partnership, i don´t know.

rgds
daniel



If only pure sweetness was offered, why's this bitter taste left in my mouth.
User currently offlineSTT757 From United States of America, joined Mar 2000, 16829 posts, RR: 51
Reply 6, posted (13 years 4 months 3 weeks 4 days 6 hours ago) and read 1158 times:

I'll be quick because I have to go to work now,so I'll post a couple quick points.

According to the OAG EWR is 16 miles and 45 minutes from Manhattan,JFK is 15 miles and 75 minutes,and LGA is 8 miles and 60 minutes.

All by car.

So I don't know where you get the idea the Turnpike is a nightmare,it never backs up (it has 12-14 lanes,6-8 in each direction). The Hudson crossings back up sometimes,but so do the East river crossings.
And if you have E-Z pass which most buses and cabs do you can fly through the tolls at exit 14.

My girlfriend's sister lives in Weehawkin NJ right on the bluff over looking Manhattan,and I go home from there by entering the Turnpike right at the exit of the Lincoln tunnel where the ball fields are. I timed it (during non-rush hour) and it took me ten minutes from the Lincoln tunnel exit to exit 14 .

Add about another 10 minutes to that drive through the tunnel during non rush hour (half hour during rush) and you can obviously see that the trip to EWR from Mid-town is about 15 minutes faster than LGA and 30 minutes faster than driving to JFK.

You cannot compare the VanWyck,the Belt Parkway,the Grand Central or whatever,the turnpike is and inter-State.

And the Newark airport station opens in August.

More later when I get home from work.





Eastern Air lines flt # 701, EWR-MCO Boeing 757
User currently offlineMjb69 From United States of America, joined May 2000, 32 posts, RR: 0
Reply 7, posted (13 years 4 months 3 weeks 4 days 6 hours ago) and read 1151 times:

ST757-

You may be right about the car travel times, but your speaking like a NJ suburbanite......We Manhattanites do not own cars!! You guys in the burbs own the cars that I see on the roads as you are commuting to and from work. For us, the MTA is the only way to get around. Cabs are $$$, and are subject to the Van Wyck/NJ turnpike. I'm sure you'll attest to the fact that nearly everyday on the radio (all morning and all afternoon starting at ~3pm) all one hears is "30-45 min backup on the GWB and the tunnels".

And you forgot to mention LI (remember them?). They have to deal with the LIE (in all 3 cases), 2 bridges/tunnels (>$7.00 in tolls), manhattan traffic, New Jersey bound commuter traffic, and I forgot to mention the toll on the NJ turnpike!

How can that be more convenient than JFK? No tolls, No manhattan, no commuter traffic (reverse commute)!

EWR is a nice airport, just a bit inconvenient for the majority of NYC metro.


User currently offlineNeder99 From United Kingdom, joined Sep 2000, 184 posts, RR: 0
Reply 8, posted (13 years 4 months 3 weeks 4 days 6 hours ago) and read 1145 times:

SAS does actually offer flights to JFK, in code-share with Icelandair via KEF. I think this is out of all three Scandinavian capitals.
n99


User currently offlinePedros From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 9, posted (13 years 4 months 3 weeks 4 days 4 hours ago) and read 1130 times:

Well this fall when the monorail is complete all you need is $1.50 for a path train (new fare, i was kind of used to the $1) from NY Penn station to newark and then you can hop on the monorail. The train is about 25 minutes, the monorail about 10. Big grin

User currently offlineGOT From Sweden, joined Dec 2000, 1912 posts, RR: 1
Reply 10, posted (13 years 4 months 3 weeks 4 days 3 hours ago) and read 1115 times:

Maybe it's cheaper on EWR and it might cost a lot of money to move over to JFK. Besides, where do United have their traffic in NYC area? Maybe SAS finds most connections out in the USA from EWR.

GOT



Just like birdwatching - without having to be so damned quiet!
User currently offlineCaravelle From Norway, joined Aug 2000, 666 posts, RR: 1
Reply 11, posted (13 years 4 months 3 weeks 4 days 2 hours ago) and read 1106 times:

You're missing the point here, fellas. Why bother with SK at all? There are so many other options, and SK 767's are almost always cramped (though their inflight service, even on economy, remains fairly good).

- caravelle



Trains and boats and planes....
User currently offlineSTT757 From United States of America, joined Mar 2000, 16829 posts, RR: 51
Reply 12, posted (13 years 4 months 3 weeks 3 days 21 hours ago) and read 1071 times:

Getting back to the question of why SAS focuses at EWR.

Maersk the worlds largest contanier shipper in the world has their US headquarters and their largest port facility operation at Port Newark/Elizabeth.

Maersk is based in Denmark and is one if not the largest employers there.

Also Lufthansa has most of their NY operations at EWR,they have three daily flights to three German cities (DUS,FRA,MUC).

Again this is due to the large concentration of German busineses who keep their US headquarters in NJ,such as BMW (Montvale) and Siemens.

(LH also serves JFK with two daily flights to FRA).

NJ is the home to many large multinational and National corporations,such as Johnson & Johnson,AT&T,Lucent,Merck,Phizer,Bristol Myers Squib,Prudential,and many others.

The North Jersey region is very much a suburban business center which combined with the 6-8 million or so North Jersey residents makes EWR very attractive.Through in the 15% of Mahanttanites and thats the icing on the cake.

Long Island,Brooklyn and Queens have much larger population than North Jersey,but there are few large corporations based out there and household incomes are much less then say Bergen County NJ.

The Port Authority has some interesting statistics on their site which offers info about the NY area airports,I can get you a link if you want.

Some of the statistics show that yes indeed more Manhattanites fly out of LGA and JFK than do EWR(EWR gets about 15% of Manhattan residents)however this info does not reflect travelers heading to Manhattan.

The other points of the study indicate that EWR has many more business travelers than either JFK or LGA,and that the average household income of the typical EWR traveler is over $82 thousand a year. While JFK and LGA's typical traveler's household income are around $72 thousand on average for both of them.

Also FedEx and UPS have their NY hubs at EWR,EWR is the largest North East operation for FedEx and is the largest entry point for packages into there system. FedEx and UPS are time sensitive companies,and if they thought it was easier to operate their NY hubs out of JFK they would (alot more land). However the transportation network connecting EWR with the region is far better than JFK.

Yes EWR doesn't attract that many travelers from Long Island,Brooklyn,Queens,and Manhattan,but EWR can be easily reached from Pennsylvania mostly Bucks County,Philadelphi(a 90 minute drive),Alllentown and the Pocono region. Plus Rockland and Orange Counties NY.



Eastern Air lines flt # 701, EWR-MCO Boeing 757
User currently offlineFlyguy1 From United States of America, joined Jun 1999, 1738 posts, RR: 4
Reply 13, posted (13 years 4 months 3 weeks 3 days 20 hours ago) and read 1066 times:

Where in they city are you? Maybe I am biased as a Queens resident, it seems 95% of major international carriers into NY use JFK. While come of them also use EWR, a lot more dont. I agree with all your EWR points, it just seems like SAS should have at least 1 flight into what many feel is the premier transatlantic airport.


727, L1011, MD80, A300, 777-200, 737-300, 737-700, 747-400, 757-200, 737-800, A320. E190, E135, 767-200, CRJ9
User currently offlineSTT757 From United States of America, joined Mar 2000, 16829 posts, RR: 51
Reply 14, posted (13 years 4 months 3 weeks 3 days 17 hours ago) and read 1058 times:

As someone who was born in the most least respected borough of NYC (Staten Island), I can understand flyguys comment when people refer to "The City" they forget there are more boroughs than just Manhattan.

I think Staten Island has closer ties to NJ than to NY but thats a totaly different subject.

I didn't mean to be arrogant in my pro EWR and Jersey atttitude (I've lived here most of my life 20+yrs),I just wanted to make the point that most carriers prefer EWR and LGA to serve business travelers and that JFK is more of the flip-flop crowd with many flights there serving NYC's many diverse ethinic neighborhoods.

The only real business routes out of JFK are to Heathrow,LAX,and SFO.

If JFK was a desirable alternative for business travelers there would be at least ONE dialy flight to Ohare,and maybe a jet aircraft to Boston or DC.

Compare the domestic business markets of the two,EWR and JFK. The only routes better served from JFK are LAX and SFO,the only routes better served than EWR from LGA re the shuttle flights. You can't get to half the destinations domestically from JFK or LGA that you can from EWR.

So taking this into account many foreign airlines fly into just EWR (SAS,MH,BR,MX,) to tap into that market,while some choose JFK because of name recognition,and the ones who can;
BA,SQ,AF,TP,LH,AZ,LO,EI,SN,KL,SR choose both EWR and JFK.

A couple of quick points:
EWR is NY's first airport,the first airport in the country to have paved runways and the first to light those runways. Also EWR had the first air traffic control tower in the country.

And in August EWR will have NY's first true train-to-plane connection.

Those Take the train to the plane commercials of the 70s (which are still ringing in my head) were very mis-leading. A year or two from now and JFK's airtrain will connect with Howard Beach transit station,and two years after that Jamaica station should be connected to JFK.



Eastern Air lines flt # 701, EWR-MCO Boeing 757
User currently offlineSEVEN_FIFTY7 From United States of America, joined Sep 2000, 957 posts, RR: 4
Reply 15, posted (13 years 4 months 3 weeks 3 days 16 hours ago) and read 1058 times:

How can anyone living in Brooklyn, Queens, Long Island, and the Bronx find EWR "more convenient?"

Look, when most of us true New Yorkers say EWR is "convenient", we're only referring to navigating around the airport itself. It's the LAYOUT of EWR that's convenient--we're not referring to the commute to/from the five boroughs. True, JFK is a nightmare to get around. The layout of that airport is not user-friendly. While LGA is small, it serves no int'l destinations (except Canada), no subway goes there, and the delays are legendary. But for the people in the outer boroughs beside S.I., JFk & LGA are definietly easier to get to.

Now as far as the original question, the answer is simple and Jonnybgoode is correct: SAS serves only EWR because of their former alliance with CO. I could've sworn that SAS said they would changing to JFK nonstops this year.


User currently offlineFBU 4EVER! From Norway, joined Jan 2001, 998 posts, RR: 7
Reply 16, posted (13 years 4 months 3 weeks 3 days 12 hours ago) and read 1049 times:

Many reasons made SAS change to EWR.First,there was the Continental tie-up (no longer there),then there was the congestion at JFK with take off slots and taxi times often approaching 1 hour or more.
With a daily flight to New York from each of the 3 Scandinavian capitals,it is very convenient (and especially;economical) to have all 3 flights arrive and depart in a timeframe when only one station crew (handling personnel,mechanics,etc.) is needed.This was not possible at JFK due to congestion,hence the move.
SAS 767's may be cramped in coach class,especially if the "domestic" Greenland version is used on the EWR run,which happens more often than not.But there will be A-330's before long!



"Luck and superstition wins all the time"!
User currently offlineFlyguy1 From United States of America, joined Jun 1999, 1738 posts, RR: 4
Reply 17, posted (13 years 4 months 3 weeks 2 days 22 hours ago) and read 1015 times:

There are many business markets from JFK, though no where near the amount from LGA. Besides LAX, SFO, and LHR, pretty much every west coast city, Asia, Europe, and South America, can be considered a business destination. There are many hub flights from the likes of DL, AA, TW, NW, and CO into Kennedy. This doesnt include AAeagle, Comair, ASA, and ACJET service from many large east coast cities (BOS, DTW, CLE, PIT, etc).
With the emergence of Jetblue, we now have N/S service to many of the destination that did not receive it in the past. LGA is getting worse and worse with delays, would u rather spend 2 hours on a taxiway, or the extra 20 minutes to JFK? My hope is that this will lead to further growth at JFK.



727, L1011, MD80, A300, 777-200, 737-300, 737-700, 747-400, 757-200, 737-800, A320. E190, E135, 767-200, CRJ9
User currently offlineSTT757 From United States of America, joined Mar 2000, 16829 posts, RR: 51
Reply 18, posted (13 years 4 months 3 weeks 2 days 22 hours ago) and read 1015 times:

There is only one flight to Ohare ( a major hub for two of the nations largest airlines AA & UAL)from JFK,and thats only on a Saturday.

There's only one (maybe two) flights to DFW AA's biggest hub.

Sacramento,Reno and Oakland get better frequnecies and more choices to DFW than does JFK.

DAL has five flights to ATL from JFK and AA has five flights to Miami,those are the only hub flights and they were developed by Eastern.

And five frequencies to ATL from JFK is not much better than Hartford or Providence.

JFK has a captive market in Queens,Brooklyn and Long Island. However due to it's location and the fact that you have to drive through the city and pay tolls to get there,it really cannot draw travelers who might drive in from out of the region like Up-State,NJ,PA,or even CT.

I always see plenty of Connecticut plates at the Terminal C parking lot at EWR,along with plenty of NY,PA and even MAS plates.




Eastern Air lines flt # 701, EWR-MCO Boeing 757
User currently offlineFlyguy1 From United States of America, joined Jun 1999, 1738 posts, RR: 4
Reply 19, posted (13 years 4 months 3 weeks 2 days 21 hours ago) and read 1014 times:

True, JFK doesn't have the service to ORD. It does have at least 2 flights to most of the large hub cities throughout the US. As of now we are way behind EWR, and LGA. This should change in the future.


727, L1011, MD80, A300, 777-200, 737-300, 737-700, 747-400, 757-200, 737-800, A320. E190, E135, 767-200, CRJ9
User currently offlineFlyguy1 From United States of America, joined Jun 1999, 1738 posts, RR: 4
Reply 20, posted (13 years 4 months 3 weeks 2 days 21 hours ago) and read 1016 times:

Very true about the economic issues. Now with the Star Alliance, I am sure United could handle at least one flight at Kennedy. When did SAS leave JFK for good?


727, L1011, MD80, A300, 777-200, 737-300, 737-700, 747-400, 757-200, 737-800, A320. E190, E135, 767-200, CRJ9
User currently offlineSTT757 From United States of America, joined Mar 2000, 16829 posts, RR: 51
Reply 21, posted (13 years 4 months 3 weeks 2 days 20 hours ago) and read 1011 times:

I think "89 was the year.

I'll say this the NY,NJ,CT tri-State area and North Eastern PA supply ample traffic to get and keep EWR and JFK over the 40+ million passengers a year range.

There's a lack of air service to the NY/NJ region in which a quarter (25%) of the US population lives.

So air travel will continue to grow at EWR,JFK,LGA and even ISP,New Burgh,Westchester and eventually Allentown PA,and Trenton NJ.

Whether the regions airports and the airlines can meet the demand remains to be seen,but hopefully new technologies,airport construction and Amtrak high speed trains will step up to the plate.



Eastern Air lines flt # 701, EWR-MCO Boeing 757
User currently offlineCaravelle From Norway, joined Aug 2000, 666 posts, RR: 1
Reply 22, posted (13 years 4 months 3 weeks 2 days 2 hours ago) and read 994 times:

Indeed!
GEN should never have become OSL.
FBU 4ever. Right you are!

- caravelle



Trains and boats and planes....
User currently offlineFBU 4EVER! From Norway, joined Jan 2001, 998 posts, RR: 7
Reply 23, posted (13 years 4 months 3 weeks 1 day 7 hours ago) and read 976 times:

Haven't got the exact date for the last SAS flight out of JFK,but SAS started flying into EWR with the entry into service of the 767 in -89.AFAIK,I don't think the DC-10 operated into EWR,at least not on a regular basis,so I believe late -89 or early -90 saw the last SAS flight out of JFK.
Sure,the Star Alliance tie could be used by SAS at JFK,but SAS strategy is to operate into one airport only if a city is served by more than one.Only when this airport is so congested that no more slots can be obtained,will SAS fly to one of the other airports,like London.SAS operates into Heathrow AND Stansted for this reason.Before operating to a second airport,SAS will operate at least 2 daily flights out of each of the 3 Scandinavian capitals to one destination before adding a second airport.



"Luck and superstition wins all the time"!
User currently offlineCsavel From United States of America, joined Jan 2001, 1362 posts, RR: 4
Reply 24, posted (13 years 4 months 2 weeks 5 days 8 hours ago) and read 949 times:

Another reason is that until Mayor Giuliani made an issue out of it, JFK had not had an upgrade since, I think the 60s. Once the PA were threatened with having their leases not renewed, their pro EWR bias changed a bit.
Please, understand this isn't a rant against EWR, NJ or the PA (Well OK, maybe it *is* a rant against the PA). I think EWR would have grown no matter what, what with the economic boom in Northern NJ, but there is a lot of bad blood, locally in NYC, about how most people feel the PA *helped* the deterioration of JFK, which only really changed until the mouth of the Hudson sqauwked.

WIth LGA over-capacity, and EWR also over-capacity, people will re-discover JFK, because that airport has room to grow.



I may be ugly. I may be an American. But don't call me an ugly American.
25 STT757 : SAS did fly their DC-10s into EWR on a regular basis for a couple of years from Copenhagen.
26 Flyguy1 : Well said !!
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