Sponsor Message:
Civil Aviation Forum
My Starred Topics | Profile | New Topic | Forum Index | Help | Search 
Delta Applies For 3x LAX-GRU  
User currently offlineAlitalia744 From United States of America, joined Mar 2000, 4749 posts, RR: 44
Posted (6 years 2 weeks 5 days 8 hours ago) and read 20968 times:

Delta filed for 3x weekly LAX-GRU today with the DOT to begin on 12/14/2008 with 767-332ER aircraft.

http://airlineinfo.com/ost10/ost082908.html#Anchor-Delta-3800

http://airlineinfo.com/ostpdf71/466.pdf


Some see lines, others see between the lines.
379 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineLAXintl From United States of America, joined May 2000, 25352 posts, RR: 49
Reply 1, posted (6 years 2 weeks 5 days 7 hours ago) and read 20949 times:

Funny competiting against fellow Skyteam member Korean Air.

The route request is contingent of getting two United Brazil slots, similar tactic that AA itself is pursuing and the DOT has yet to rule on.



From the desert to the sea, to all of Southern California
User currently offlineDellatorre From Brazil, joined May 2000, 1088 posts, RR: 2
Reply 2, posted (6 years 2 weeks 5 days 7 hours ago) and read 20922 times:

That is a bit unexpected!!! Never heard of DL being interested in flying such route. Maybe it has something to do with KE performance over the specific segment. Since KE does not have extra frequencies, DL is taking take of that.

If DL manages to get those frequencies, I guess JJ interest in LAX will be weaker than ever!!!


User currently offlineKlkla From United States of America, joined Jul 2004, 933 posts, RR: 0
Reply 3, posted (6 years 2 weeks 5 days 7 hours ago) and read 20903 times:

This will be a godsend for me if approved.

Looks like they will be fighting AA over those United authorities. From the same link provided in the original post (if you scroll up the page). This is part of Delta's response to AA's application:

"However, Delta has today filed a competing application for re-allocation of both of the dormant U.S.-Brazil frequencies currently allocated to United. Delta would use these two frequencies to open a new U.S. carrier gateway at Los Angeles. The relief requested by Delta and American are mutually exclusive, and the Department is required to institute a comparative selection proceeding to consider the merits of the competing applications in accordance with Ashbacker Radio Corp. v. FCC."


User currently offlineCubsrule From United States of America, joined May 2004, 22993 posts, RR: 20
Reply 4, posted (6 years 2 weeks 5 days 7 hours ago) and read 20891 times:

This may be a stupid question, but isn't LAX-GRU a fairly long route for a 763?


I can't decide whether I miss the tulip or the bowling shoe more
User currently offlineAF086 From France, joined Jan 2007, 1059 posts, RR: 8
Reply 5, posted (6 years 2 weeks 5 days 7 hours ago) and read 20875 times:

Using which freqiencies? There are only two left in the pool which can be used anywhere. The new frequencies (the second round of the expansion) of the bilateral will only be available next july and cannot be used at GRU.


Please insert a "smart" joke here.
User currently offlineKlkla From United States of America, joined Jul 2004, 933 posts, RR: 0
Reply 6, posted (6 years 2 weeks 5 days 7 hours ago) and read 20845 times:



Quoting AF086 (Reply 5):
Using which freqiencies? There are only two left in the pool which can be used anywhere.

In addition to the two they want from United they would reallocate one of their existing twenty one allocations.


User currently offlineAF086 From France, joined Jan 2007, 1059 posts, RR: 8
Reply 7, posted (6 years 2 weeks 5 days 7 hours ago) and read 20812 times:



Quoting Klkla (Reply 6):
In addition to the two they want from United they would reallocate one of their existing twenty one allocations.

United uses 14 of their 21 frequencies all year yound and the other 7 during the peak season on the IAD-GIG nonstop service. UA already lost 7 US-Brazil frequencies to Delta in the past, let's see how they'll react this time.



Please insert a "smart" joke here.
User currently offlineCubsrule From United States of America, joined May 2004, 22993 posts, RR: 20
Reply 8, posted (6 years 2 weeks 5 days 7 hours ago) and read 20809 times:



Quoting Klkla (Reply 6):
existing twenty one allocations.

...which, before someone asks, are daily ATL-GRU (DL104/105), daily JFK-GRU (DAL121/122), and daily ATL-GIG (DL60/61)



I can't decide whether I miss the tulip or the bowling shoe more
User currently offlineLAXintl From United States of America, joined May 2000, 25352 posts, RR: 49
Reply 9, posted (6 years 2 weeks 5 days 7 hours ago) and read 20765 times:



Quoting AF086 (Reply 7):
of their 21 frequencies

United has 23 Brazil frequencies.

The ones AA and DL want to strip are the 2 odd ones which were hand me downs from Pan Am and grandfathered outside the normal DOT dormancy rules.

So firstly, the DOT has to determine of they can truly strip United of the frequencies, and secondly if so run a route selection competition between AA and DL as they both are contesting the same things.

In other words -- neither AA nor DL are about to start anything this winter as both their applications wish for as this will be a drawn out exercise.



From the desert to the sea, to all of Southern California
User currently offlineMCOflyer From United States of America, joined Jun 2006, 8675 posts, RR: 15
Reply 10, posted (6 years 2 weeks 5 days 7 hours ago) and read 20742 times:



Quoting Cubsrule (Reply 4):
This may be a stupid question, but isn't LAX-GRU a fairly long route for a 763?

Well its 6156miles according to GCM, but according to Boeing commercial its right at the limit depending on configuration:

http://boeing.com/commercial/767family/pf/pf_rc_losangeles.html

Hunter



Never be afraid to stand up for who you are.
User currently offlineFlynavy From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 11, posted (6 years 2 weeks 5 days 7 hours ago) and read 20741 times:



Quoting Alitalia744 (Thread starter):
with 767-332ER aircraft

You mean no Gulf Air planes?! Yay!

 Smile


User currently offlineRoseFlyer From United States of America, joined Feb 2004, 9635 posts, RR: 52
Reply 12, posted (6 years 2 weeks 5 days 7 hours ago) and read 20743 times:

I am very surprised DL is wanting to do LAX-GRU. It seems from the lay person's perspective that the route makes a lot of sense since GRU is south of LAX. But if you look at the map, you'd realize that LAX-GRU only saves 250 miles over LAX-MIA-GRU. MIA and ATL are the logical takeoff points for South America.

This route also is extremely long for a 763ER. I'm surprised it can make it that far. LAX-GRU is about the same length as LAX-ICN and no airline flies from the US to Asia nonstop on a 767. If DL will fly to GRU from LAX, then I guess they could do Asia from LAX with their 767s, although South America has fewer winds to deal with.



If you have never designed an airplane part before, let the real designers do the work!
User currently offlineAlitalia744 From United States of America, joined Mar 2000, 4749 posts, RR: 44
Reply 13, posted (6 years 2 weeks 5 days 7 hours ago) and read 20720 times:

Quoting RoseFlyer (Reply 12):
no airline flies from the US to Asia nonstop on a 767.

Correction Rose, no airline YET flies US to Asia nonstop on a 767....

[Edited 2008-08-29 18:15:24]


Some see lines, others see between the lines.
User currently offlineKlkla From United States of America, joined Jul 2004, 933 posts, RR: 0
Reply 14, posted (6 years 2 weeks 5 days 7 hours ago) and read 20692 times:



Quoting RoseFlyer (Reply 12):
But if you look at the map, you'd realize that LAX-GRU only saves 250 miles over LAX-MIA-GRU. MIA and ATL are the logical takeoff points for South America.

Speaking only from my own perspective, from someone who flies LAX-GRU 5-6 times a year, the possibility of a upgradeable non-stop flight is a huge advantage and saves a lot of time not having to make connections. I have no idea how many other people in LA would appreciate this benefit but for me it would be huge.

Quoting RoseFlyer (Reply 12):
This route also is extremely long for a 763ER.

It's right at the current limits... but remember that Delta has ordered the new blended winglets which will extend the range of the aircraft.


User currently offlineHALFA From United States of America, joined Jan 2004, 1354 posts, RR: 15
Reply 15, posted (6 years 2 weeks 5 days 6 hours ago) and read 20653 times:



Quoting Alitalia744 (Thread starter):
Delta filed for 3x weekly LAX-GRU today with the DOT to begin on 12/14/2008 with 767-332ER aircraft.

I'm shocked, but I will be SO happy if they get the route and start service soon!.

Quoting Dellatorre (Reply 2):
Maybe it has something to do with KE performance over the specific segment.

Perhaps, as well as looking at RG's loads on the route during their years of serving LAX.

Quoting Cubsrule (Reply 4):
This may be a stupid question, but isn't LAX-GRU a fairly long route for a 763?

That was my first thought as well. Not a stupid question at all. I think if it happens, it will be weight restricted quite often. AC was/is weight restricted frequently on their flights from GRU to YYZ.

Quoting RoseFlyer (Reply 12):
LAX-GRU is about the same length as LAX-ICN and no airline flies from the US to Asia nonstop on a 767.

I know what you meant with this statement, but technically it's not true. Hawaii is in the US and Manila is in Asia. HA flies 4 times weekly from HNL to MNL on a 767-300. Please don't forget about us.  Smile

HALFA



Don't mess with Texas....We just may do that!
User currently offlineC010T3 From Brazil, joined Jul 2006, 3703 posts, RR: 19
Reply 16, posted (6 years 2 weeks 5 days 6 hours ago) and read 20565 times:

Does somebody know if the bilateral got more liberal and would allow DL to code-share with KE?

User currently offlineEvan767 From United States of America, joined Aug 2005, 2957 posts, RR: 2
Reply 17, posted (6 years 2 weeks 5 days 6 hours ago) and read 20551 times:

Oh my, how funny so many doubted the crazed WorldTraveler and other DL supporters for their predictions of LAX-international routes even to places like South America. This is good stuff..


The proper term is "on final" not "on finals" bud...
User currently offlineMir From United States of America, joined Jan 2004, 21625 posts, RR: 55
Reply 18, posted (6 years 2 weeks 5 days 6 hours ago) and read 20515 times:



Quoting RoseFlyer (Reply 12):
If DL will fly to GRU from LAX, then I guess they could do Asia from LAX with their 767s, although South America has fewer winds to deal with.

Much fewer winds to deal with. The jetstream over Alaska is a killer. LAX-GRU is more manageable for the 767 than LAX-Asia.

-Mir



7 billion, one nation, imagination...it's a beautiful day
User currently offlineC010T3 From Brazil, joined Jul 2006, 3703 posts, RR: 19
Reply 19, posted (6 years 2 weeks 5 days 6 hours ago) and read 20513 times:

Well, if the route works, I predict that DL will apply for the GRU-restricted frequencies of July and use them on ATL-GIG. That would free up the GRU-unrestricted frequencies for a daily LAX-GRU. The only problem that DL is probably not anticipating are the slots at GRU for the departure. They might only get some after midnight.

User currently offlineJKJ777 From United States of America, joined Aug 2007, 397 posts, RR: 0
Reply 20, posted (6 years 2 weeks 5 days 6 hours ago) and read 20479 times:

This could work. I have flown the ATL flight 101 and 110 numerous times in the past months and that flight is ALWAYS full regardless of the aircraft type. From talking to fellow passengers it seems as if a great majority of those folks are conitnuing on to South America. If that one flight is any indication of how a direct LAX-South America would work, DL will enjoy the potential profits. I hope to see them get it and do well with it.

User currently offlineWorldTraveler From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 21, posted (6 years 2 weeks 5 days 6 hours ago) and read 20418 times:



Quoting Evan767 (Reply 17):
:


Oh my, how funny so many doubted the crazed WorldTraveler and other DL supporters for their predictions of LAX-international routes even to places like South America. This is good stuff..

believe me I smile at what comes out of ATL more and more these days. Yes, I predicted 767 service from LAX to South America and as Alitalia744 notes, I've also predicted, 767 service from LAX to Asia.

KE does not operate daily service. DL is proposing 3X/week. The two could be quite complementary.

There is little headwind operating a north-south route like this. The route should amount to 12 - 12.5 hrs in the air, well within the range of a 767, esp. one w/ winglets.


Part of DL's point in this whole exercise is to ensure that AA does not use frequency stripping to add frequencies to the Brazil route case in which DL was clearly awarded the majority of the frequencies.

Adding an additional frequency or two to AA to a new Brazil city is not worth near as much a new route to the largest Brazil market from one of the top O&Ds to Brazil. Whether DL wins or not is probably not as important as that they will prevent AA from walking away from these frequencies.


User currently offlineEXAAUADL From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 22, posted (6 years 2 weeks 5 days 5 hours ago) and read 20360 times:

Isnt DL discontinuing LAX-SEA/PDX/DEN/PHX on and on..What wil lthey fill it with. THe local market is kinda small for DL/RG/KE

User currently offlineHALFA From United States of America, joined Jan 2004, 1354 posts, RR: 15
Reply 23, posted (6 years 2 weeks 5 days 5 hours ago) and read 20316 times:



Quoting C010T3 (Reply 19):
The only problem that DL is probably not anticipating are the slots at GRU for the departure. They might only get some after midnight.

This shouldn't be too big of a problem. Those of us who flew regularly on RG's GRU-LAX nonstop were quite used to leaving GRU very late in the evening. IIRC, RG's flight left GRU at 11:50pm. (When it was on time  Smile )
This might be a better departure time for crew scheduling purposes as well. They could schedule an early afternoon departure from LAX with an early morning arrival in GRU. The crew could then go to the hotel and get a full day's rest, like they do with their ATL-GIG, and ATL-GRU flights, and then work the flight back to LAX that same evening, with an early morning arrival in LAX, as opposed to having a crew layover at GRU for 2 and 3 nights since it will only operate 3 X weekly.

Quoting WorldTraveler (Reply 21):
There is little headwind operating a north-south route like this. The route should amount to 12 - 12.5 hrs in the air, well within the range of a 767, esp. one w/ winglets.

The normal flight time on this route is closer to 11 hours 20-40 minutes, and you are correct, winds are not usually a problem.

Aloha,
HALFA



Don't mess with Texas....We just may do that!
User currently offlinePanamair From United States of America, joined Oct 2001, 4910 posts, RR: 25
Reply 24, posted (6 years 2 weeks 5 days 5 hours ago) and read 20266 times:
Support Airliners.net - become a First Class Member!



Quoting HALFA (Reply 23):
They could schedule an early afternoon departure from LAX with an early morning arrival in GRU.

The proposed schedule has a 2100 (9pm) departure out of LAX and an afternoon arrival at GRU (1pm or 3pm depending on season). Return is supposed to leave GRU at either 2120 or 2255 depending on season, with a 0600 arrival at LAX.


25 WorldTraveler : DL's route application states that the shortest segment would be LAX-GRU in the summer at 12.1 block hours and the longest segment would be 13.1 for G
26 Klkla : Maybe that explains something I thought was interesting about Delta's application. They said they would be flying the route with a 767-300ER with 34
27 AmtrakGuy : Maybe DL will code-share with NWA flights from Asia and Hawaii along with AS. DL may end up having 3 airlines to feed some passengers flying LAX -- GR
28 Lambert747 : RG no longer serves LAX, let alone the USA... Indeed correct. DL could take advantage of the CI TPE-LAX, DL/NW NRT-LAX flight, the KE ICN-LAX flight,
29 EWRCabincrew : HA flies to MNL with a 767 and CO flew HNL-NGO with a 764.
30 Lambert747 : UA has in the past from PDX and SEA AA has in the past from SJC (short period after 9-11 on SJC-NRT)
31 Klkla : The application asks for the service to begin in December. I don't think Delta will need to codeshare anything with NWA by December
32 LAXintl : Care to share the details as to when you believe this occurred? UA's 767-300s have not flown scheduled across the Pacific to Asia. Matter of fact the
33 Tonytifao : Wow! I think this would be a great addtition to DL network. I just think they need a better and more comfortable aircraft for this long route. They co
34 B777ER : IIRC, DL takes out the first couple J seats in the center (with some additional mod's) and has a large box type area that is enclosed and inside of t
35 United1 : If your thinking back prior to the PA purchase UA used DC-10-30s and 747-100/200 series aircraft on SEA/PDX-NRT and SEA-HKG. The 767-200s were never
36 DeltaL1011man : I called it. I said that if DL can get any more GRU rights they will go to LAX or more ATL flights and I was told that the yields suck on this route a
37 United1 : Thats exactly what they do seats 1C & 1E are removed to accommodate the box....does anyone know how many of the aircraft have or are scheduled to hav
38 HALFA : Join the club! Several of us have argued this point over the years as there are several members here that will continue to try and convince us that y
39 DeltaL1011man : Also the CZ flights I want to say its 12 but im not 100% on that.
40 Cws818 : Your collective flashes of intuition notwithstanding, one would have thought that DL would have attempted an established, proven intercontinental rou
41 EXAAUADL : code share always generates less traffic than onlines connects. Only think D Lwill offer thru LAX is longer eplased times for SEA/PDX/YVR versus DFW
42 Transpac787 : I'd imagine all of these 763's are to get the winglet mod??
43 MasseyBrown : There is good traffic potential from LAX to South America, but in the past it has been true about the yields. The profitability of eastern US-SA rout
44 Alitalia744 : I should have said mainland. Exactly. Yes and more may be coming.[Edited 2008-08-30 09:35:26]
45 Evan767 : Do you or anyone know how many orders Delta has for winglets for their 763ER's? Does Delta have options to put winglets on all of their 763ER's for f
46 Lambert747 : Unless DL departs late at night the CZ connection will be useless.
47 DeltaL1011man : 30 for the 763s. DL has options to put winglets on all 757s,737s and 763ERs.
48 OOer : Most South American departures are at night...as they arrive early in the morning. I would expect a 10-11pm departure. The question I have is... DL o
49 LACA773 : Will DL's schedule compliment KE's? I hope they get this route approved and it works out for them.
50 Evan767 : First of all, Delta's longest 763ER flight is LOS-ATL, and even AMM-JFK is longer than TLV-JFK. And you should always base a route on block time, not
51 Lambert747 : The same way the RG made the route work with the 767-300 second service in 2001...
52 Jmbarros12 : I was wondering why DL would not use the 764's on this route... Is it too much of supply? If I'm not wrong, KE flies a 772 on GRU-LAX and if DL decid
53 C010T3 : The 764 does not have the range.
54 OOer : The 767-400 has a range a little shorter than the -300, and there are no spare 777s at the moment. Let me add...ATL-LOS and JFK-AMM are SEVERELY weigh
55 Jmbarros12 : True, just checked it... Tks for the info.
56 Panamair : There are currently 7 that have the 34/181 configuration - ships 1607 - 1613. They are mandatory on the following routes: ATL-LOS JFK-TLV JFK-AMM JFK
57 DeltaL1011man : lack of range. Lack of A/C. If they get the route it could A332 post merger.
58 Lambert747 : The DL flight will not start or end in NRT, or ICN. The only way that LAX-GRU with DL metal will be a bigger aircraft would be if the route was creat
59 MCOAviationFan : For the past several months ATL-LOS has been blocked just below 12 hrs in both directions. As a result, the modified 767 has not been used on this ro
60 OOer : Starting October the LOS-ATL leg will be blocked at 12:10
61 WorldTraveler : AMM is at several thousand feet of elevation. The problems with performance out of AMM are due to altitude and summer heat, not range.
62 MCOAviationFan : Someone recently posted that DL was changing the AMM schedule to allow for a late evening departure from AMM. This should help with the heat issue.
63 Evan767 : Amman isn't that high up. And yes, range does contribute to the reason why the plane is booked to 150 in the back. However, the main reason the plane
64 Evan767 : Yes, see my post above.
65 Viscount724 : It's 2,395 ft ASL which can still affect payload on long sectors especially when combined with high temperatures.
66 Evan767 : Yeah, but it's not that bad. I'm not saying it doesn't contribute. I'm just saying it's a smaller factor than the afternoon heat.[Edited 2008-08-30 1
67 WorldTraveler : look at the performance charts on Boeing's website to see the difference between sea level and 2000 ft ASL. Altitude is indeed a significant factor. T
68 Transpac787 : DL has both GE and PW engines on their 763's, though the PW's are mostly found on the 763ER's while the GE's are mostly on their 763A's. Anyhow, the
69 SESGDL : They are actually GE-powered 767-300s. DL has a lot of PW-powered -ERs, ships 172-199 and ships 1200 and 1201, as well as a lot of GE powered -ERs ar
70 United1 : DL has IIRC... 21 764ER GE powered 30 763ER GE powered 29 763ER PW powered (2 are being retired the end of this year) 17 763 GE 4 763 PW
71 Alitalia744 : Not necessarily. Look at DL - it's the GE birds that are doing the longest flights...
72 Post contains links and images Transpac787 : And the longest 767 route in the world, TLV-MIA, is done by a PW-power 762. View Large View MediumPhoto © Snorre - VAP
73 NewYorkCityBoi : Hainan Airlines flies PEK-SEA on 767-300 LAX-GRU is far.. but Delta also does JFK-EZE too
74 Transpac787 : JFK-EZE is about 800nm shorter than LAX-GRU. Their 767 flights to Africa are a good deal longer than JFK-EZE too.
75 SJOtoLIR : For the time being BOG, LIM, SCL and GRU are sustaining scheduled non-stop services out of LAX. Regards.
76 Dispatchguy : It seems that a LOT of times recently, I have seen where the AMM-JFK trip makes a fuel stop in SNN so as to be able to accommodate the loads coming o
77 OOer : This is where DL needs the A332 that NW has. Putting an A332 on CAI/TLV/AMM would allow DL to maximize the revenue on those flights!
78 JJ8080 : Rumors has it that DL could make the flight LAX-LIM-GRU, in order to make it daily and maximize loads (cargo and pax),. The info came from a friend wo
79 Viscount724 : As a sidenote, LY's last TLV-MIA flight is tonight. They announced a couple of months ago that they were dropping the route.
80 2travel2know : Is Perú going to allow a U.S. airline traffic rights between LIM and GRU? Braniff had them once upon a time. It will depend on the current U.S. - Pe
81 Lambert747 : RG operated: 747/MD-11/763 = LAX-GRU-GIG 747/762 = LAX-LIM-GRU
82 OOer : How about LAX-MEX-GRU...get a little feed from AM in MEX and load them up!
83 WorldTraveler : The 332 is larger but doesn't have any better performance. On a route like TLV or CAI where it is at sea level, the 332 could add more seats but the
84 OOer : It has a longer range...therefore DL could actually carry some cargo on TLV/CAI instead of having to stop in MAN everytime the winds are too strong co
85 DeltaL1011man : The 763ER has 5,900nm The A332 has 6,800nm Looks to me like the A332 has better range which would mean it should be able to carry more fuel/PAX/Cargo
86 WorldTraveler : what manufacturers quote and what actually happens in real life are two very different things. I do not know any 332 route that operates regularly be
87 Speedbird0125 : So now, DL's gonna compete with KE too.
88 Speedbird0125 : How's KE doing on this route (GRU-LAX-ICN)?
89 Bobnwa : Have you ever done a weight and balance on any aircraft let alone a 767ER or a A332?
90 DeltaL1011man : Loads look ok but that means very little. Others on here say Yields suck but I don't think you will find anyone that knows or if they know can't tell
91 Post contains links HALFA : I flew on this flight about 4 weeks after it's launch and the flight was packed (GRU-LAX) and fares are high. You will not find fares for less than U
92 OOer : I work that flight at least once per month...and its happened more than once to me, and several other times to those who work that flight 4-5 times p
93 OOer : I do not know any other operators besides Delta that have scheduled flights on the 767-300 blocked over 12 hours. Look, everyone knows the A332 has l
94 RwSEA : Interesting choice - this should compliment KE's service nicely. It's nice to have more options from the West Coast, and hopefully this flight will ha
95 HB-IWC : AF279 NRT CDG blocks at 12.45 and is operated with A332. Before that, AF183 HKG CDG blocked at 13.20. This flights has since been upgraded to B772ER.
96 Transpac787 : QF now operates an A332 on LAX-AKL, which I believe is a good bit over 13 hours blocktime. Also important to note here are NW's specific A332's. NW h
97 DeltaL1011man : Does NW have the highest thrust engines on them? I know that DL's 77Es had Trent 892s but they upgraded them to 895s which made the thrust go up. If
98 OOer : Thank you for the additional info...
99 A330323X : They have the highest thrust engines made by P&W, but other engine manufacturers make higher thrust engines for the A330. The PW4173. (That's the eng
100 WorldTraveler : they will work together, not compete. KE operates 4X/week. DL is asking for 3X/week. by far. both are much longer range. degraded performance is more
101 OOer : Last time I was on a flight from TLV-JFK that made a fuel stop was on the 18th of August.
102 Transpac787 : The highest thrust Pratt & Whitney engines available for the A330's, but not the highest-thrust engine available between PW, GE, and RR available for
103 LAXdude1023 : Small point of Clarification. KE flies LAX-GRU 3x a week. But I still get your point. Does anyone know what kind of schuedule DL would be looking at
104 OOer : WorldTraveler, instead of arguing back and forth like everyone else on this forum is used to...why dont we agree to disagree and just wait and see wha
105 LAXintl : The proposed schedule for the winter is LAX-GRU 2100-1525+1 GRU-LAX 2255-0600+1 Certainly not conducive for Asia connections off NW, CI, CZ, unless on
106 HB-IWC : At least for Air France, the upgrades from A332 to B777 have had nothing to do with the perceived lack of capability of the A332 on the Asia to Europ
107 Lambert747 : The flight is designed for both connections and O/D. If the flight were to depart in time for the NW NRT service the flight wouldhave to leave GRU at
108 LAXintl : I'm well aware of that. I'm pointing out the fact that the flights are far from ideal for Skyteam connections to/from Asia as several have pointed ou
109 Lambert747 : Understandable, however I as well have pointed out that if the flight is pushed back any further it will be at a time that is both unattractive, and
110 OOer : That I know for sure...in December. No, they are not opting to use this aircraft...this is the ONLY aircraft available time being! 1st - I didnt say
111 Yellowtail : More throwing stuff against a wall....I give this one 6 months..obviously they have so much confidence in the route that they are goign to go for it a
112 Lambert747 : The comment I responded to was about the 777 being used in place of the 767 to LOS.. The comment made in the original post was a blank statement. Wha
113 Lambert747 : I have heard of DL crews timing out and thus causing diversions. If what OOer says is true it would have happened to TW in the past as well as to Isr
114 OOer : And my answer was to yor question. This past December DL did substitute the 767 with a 777 on more than 1 occasion. Are you telling me that LAX has m
115 Viscount724 : QF 332 block time LAX-AKL is 13:20. They currently seem to be using the 332 three days a week and the 743 four days a week (743 block time 12:40). Ab
116 DeltaL1011man : Or 777-251/LR It happened Last Dec. i think but it could have been the year before. Not only that but with AS and UA having LAX-MEX DL would have to
117 OOer : It had nothing to do with the crew timing out because we all kept going after landing in MAN. I guess the fact that the PIC told myself and the rest
118 OA412 : So why exactly aren't you working in network development at DL since you clearly think you know better than the people in charge of such things?
119 JJ8080 : Incorrect. Even if DL saw the need of operating 772s on LAX-GRU route (either because of capacity or range), they would first consider the revenues a
120 Evan767 : OOer, I've talked to the ACS for Delta in Tel Aviv and yes, they do have "weight and balance issues to JFK all the time." The flight is a troublemake
121 OOer : No, I was working that flight!
122 Yellowtail : Because DL would never think of actually talking to people on the ground at the destination or hiring somebody who actually knows what they are talki
123 DeltaL1011man : Again Do you know how the Brazil frequencies work? I doesn't matter what DL has or has got at LAX. If DL wanted to make it daily i would guess they w
124 WorldTraveler : as soon as you can document that the flight really is frequently diverting due to performance issues, I'll accept it. I don't think it is. And the ev
125 DeltaL1011man : I wouldn't think we will see a 2nd daily flight. Maybe 2-3x weekly (Like SEA is now) but that will be about it. With ANA,JL,AA,UA and DL/NW on the ro
126 Lambert747 : In theory a 800am departure from LAX-NRT would be the first morning flight to NRT from the West Coast. The route could be flown to capture LA area O/
127 DeltaL1011man : Such as? I guess that if you did a morning and a afternoon flight it would work but like you said it would have to be a A332 maybe (big maybe) 1x 777
128 Lambert747 : Take a look and search the forum for the DL/NW route and aircraft speculations Again, only a rumor, the current NW gateways will more than likely be
129 Ocracoke : This one made me chuckle. Did you actually mean to type this? Soooooo, I disagree with you, and look up the Airbus performance charts. But I can't tr
130 Cws818 : "Will be shifting towards building LAX"???? They made such a shift in the past year or so, and with smashing success. Southern California frequent fl
131 Cws818 : Indeed, all that plus SQ!
132 Transpac787 : Would have been nice, no doubt. While totally irrelevant at this point, NW doesn't have much need for a 772LR, unless they wanted something like DTW-
133 LACA773 : Basically that's the case. Actually, LA operates both LIM and SCL nonstops in the afternoon, AV leaves in the evening to BOG as well as KE 3x weekly
134 Evan767 : When I was talking to the DL employees in AMM, they were telling me directly that they were taking off "bags". I believe him. It's my understanding t
135 Alitalia744 : No, not a pipe dream. There will be shifts. One doesn't need to have a pilot base to have aircraft operate out of an airport. JFK had 777s for a lil'
136 DeltaL1011man : I was thinking something like DTW-HKG,PEK,DXB,PVG,DEL,BOM,TLV and ICN. MSP doesn't have a 744 base? Don't they have some type of 747 base though? 742
137 Pellegrine : The A330-200 at 233 tonne MTOW has 800 nm more range than the 767-300ER at 196.9 tonne (412,000 lb) MTOW. This is not hard to find information.
138 Lambert747 : There is a merger and it involves DL swallowing NW. This NW will remain NW under DL is getting both dillusional and tiresome. It amazes me to see the
139 Lambert747 : From the DL side of things as has been discussed before the following routings for the 747-400: ATL-CDG (2 services combined into 1) ATL-FCO (Seasona
140 Transpac787 : It's definitely possible, I'd just think something like that would be a colossal pain in the ass for both DL and the pax. Especially with internation
141 Lambert747 : Who said immediately, it wasn't me. It has been discussed in other topics, do a search, there are plenty to chose from. The importance of DTW and MSP
142 Bobnwa : Again let me point out that it is not necessary to have a pilot base for the 744 to be able to have 744 flights. Crews deadhead all the time, and wil
143 MaverickM11 : With DL's success of all their LAX-Latin America additions (ie zero) this should be a real winner. I'm beginning to think DL has something against KE.
144 MasseyBrown : It's not hard to see DTW, where DL will have little competition, losing eastbound flow traffic to JFK.
145 Incitatus : Haven't we heard this before? I am unsure as to whether the concept of Delta and Korean not competing on LAX-GRU is legal in Brazil. Have you checked
146 LAXdude1023 : Sounds more like you making s**t up. DTW and MSP arent going to lose NRT service. I dont think they will look at it that way. They are going to want
147 MaverickM11 : They seem to be throwing darts at this point. And the local market is thin on business, thick on VFR
148 Yellowtail : I got flamed earlier for suggesting that this route would no work. Welcome to my club! We are on record....We will see if WT, DLL1011 etc have to eat
149 SlcDeltaRUmd11 : Delta has been having some really bad times at LAX, this seems like a very risky route. I guess the only thing that could make this work is if it is
150 MaverickM11 : The other problem is they're down 40% in terms of domestic seats out of LAX, so the only reasonable connections on DL metal going forward will be Haw
151 Cubsrule : I have no idea how adequately-served the LAX-Brazil market is now, but it's certainly possible for a route to survive on local traffic alone. I'm not
152 LAXdude1023 : Historically LAX-GRU has been pretty low yielding except when its a through flight to Asia. DL does have an uphill battle and I personally think this
153 OOer : This flight could also bring in some connections on AS from the pacific northwest and Alaska...correct? Also...gives people from the mountain states a
154 Yellowtail : ......most don't
155 OA412 : This would be why: Care to back that statement up with any facts? No matter what route DL annouces in Central/South America, your knee-jerk reaction
156 Papatango : Folks, the bottom line is come 2009 Delta will control all the aircraft and will fly them wherever they think they can make the most profit.
157 Yellowtail : I have only said 6 months...ONCE..this time...previous to that on the JFK-CentAm routes I said one year..I was just about right....previous to that (
158 Cubsrule : What do you know that the folks at ATL don't? Or are you arguing that they're either delusional or starting the route with no intention of it succeed
159 Yellowtail : Probably delusional....similar to US
160 Transpac787 : Here's a thought... While the 787's are significantly delayed (goddamnit Boeing....) when those eventually make it to the fleet, what is the probabili
161 United1 : Probably a virtual certainty... The additional passengers in Y due to the new seats DL is installing is going to at the very least going to cancel ou
162 DeltaL1011man : The 777 base hasn't been open but about a half of a year. AFAIK the first few weeks of the 77L on JFK-BOM was with Atlanta crews. Oh. Though MSP-NRT
163 MaverickM11 : Where does it say that? KE operates a turn while DL is proposing a long sit in GRU so I'm not sure how you can line up the flights that easily.
164 LipeGIG : Seems to be a move to fight with AA to get 1 of the 2 unused frequencies from UA. In the end, AA will get 1 and DL the other 1. In my opinion, DL woul
165 DeltaL1011man : DL is asking for 3x weekly and KE has 3x weekly I just don't think that DL is that dumb to try to fly the route on the days KE does.
166 Cws818 : A few comments: - The "boys," men and women "down in ATL" should indeed be doing their homework, within the confines of the antitrust laws and merger
167 HALFA : Hi Felipe, Are there not many domestic flights departing with GOL or TAM from GRU in the 1630-1830 hour? I would think an arrival time into GRU at 15
168 Klkla : I agree that this is somewhat of a power play between DL and AA. I would imagine that DL never seriously considered trying to take those two authorit
169 Bobnwa : And I was pointing out that ATL does not need a 747 base for it to have 747 flights, as you keep harping on. Do you understand that concept?
170 Incitatus : Don't you think JJ has a better shot at making GIG-JFK work than Delta? The market now has no nonstop service and that says going straight to two com
171 C010T3 : Apparently, JJ plans to fly GIG-JFK with 763s after all. DL has a superior product on their 763s, so would have the upper hand. Now, DL's performance
172 Hardiwv : If DL gets the 3 weekly frequencies both DL and KE would operate 6 weekly flights. The problem is that KE operates GRU-LAX daylight while DL proposed
173 LipeGIG : Hi Halfa ! For places like GIG, SSA and POA yes, you have good connections all day, but not for all places. TAM hub banks are in the early morning an
174 Abrelosojos : = I am one of those, and I continue to maintain that the demand isn't hot for LAX-GRU. At the end of its range, the 76's are super inefficient in tod
175 Hardiwv : No doubt DL read the results of KE and it is no secret that KE is doing very good in GRU-LAX even with one leg daylight. KE has managed to find an in
176 LipeGIG : Agree with you and as i mentioned, seems to be more to get the frequency from UA and not let AA to get all of them. My question is that if DL expect
177 WorldTraveler : KE and DL have transpac ATI. They can't compare notes on routes to Latin America but alliance partners share more than enough other data that DL can
178 DeltaL1011man : Oh well in that case then your wrong. To fly ATL-GRU,FCO,LHR and CDG they would have to A) start said routes from DTW with a 744 (not likely) or B) o
179 HALFA : Thanks for that, I wasn't aware that most of TAM bank flights were early A.M., late P.M. Hi Hardi! I am curious to know why you think TAM's product i
180 WorldTraveler : no, DL-KE cannot jointly plan their Latin strategies even if the flight originates in Asia. forgive me if I missed something, but why is it not possib
181 DeltaL1011man : Ok wasn't sure thanks WT. Because I said it will happen and if I say it Bob will disagree.
182 Hardiwv : I was refering to the B767, but even JJ A330s are sub-standard if compared to the product of legacy European carriers operating in Brazil such as AF,
183 C010T3 : Yes, the famous slides.
184 Bobnwa : WT, I inever said the DL will not have a747 or 330 base in Atlanta, I am only trying to point out th the junior member that an airline can have fligh
185 Incitatus : Great to hear you are backtracking from your original statement that Korean and Delta would not compete on GRU-LAX. Delta's approach to partnership (
186 WorldTraveler : I know you really try to argue but there is nothing contradictory. DL and KE cooperate on their entire networks but have ATI only on their transpac s
187 Abrelosojos : = Even looking further back in history though, LAX-GRU did not work for RG. I am not talking about the short-lived RG. Also, route announcements do n
188 LipeGIG : Halfa, I'm trying to get an inside info. Agree 100%
189 HALFA : I am curious Felipe, which part of that statement do you agree with? That KE will exit the route, or that DL will struggle if KE doesn't leave? Do yo
190 MaverickM11 : Oh it's there, but it's very low yield. Whereas NYC-Brazil might be 20% premium traffic +/-, LAX-GRU is around 5%, never mind the fact that DL will h
191 Abrelosojos : = Exactly right ... and why I think LAX-GRU with both DL and KE will not work. The route is sort of like BOS-GRU ... low yielding VFR. Now, the only
192 Jetlanta : It's not that bad in terms of yield. And there are several trans-pacific markets served today that generate lower yields (stage-adjusted) than GRU do
193 LAXdude1023 : DL and LA fly LAX-EZE directly (one stop). Via ATL and SCL respectively.
194 Hardiwv : Agree 100% MEX-GRU market needs more capacity and the current AM daily service operates with high loads and high fares. There is need for more capaci
195 MaverickM11 : ...until that other carrier finds a more valuable passenger and closes off availability to DL I'd say the market is smaller than GRU but slightly hig
196 Ocracoke : Won't MEX-ICN be an issue? AM has to fly their NRT route with a stop in TIJ. Isn't that because of the altitude in MEX? How would KE be any different
197 JJ8080 : Very well remembered... I think it is an issue indead.... Anyway, I don't see any motive for KE to change the flight to ICN-MEX-GRU since LAX results
198 SESGDL : I heard the modifications were supposed to begin late this winter but that was a while ago and I could be totally misinformed. Yes, because the likel
199 Hardiwv : Indeed, in fact JAL also routes NRT-MEX via YVR. Your point is well developed and correct. Rgs,
200 Incitatus : No it could not. The frequency distribution is subject to DoT approval so any airline could create a better case than more ATL-GRU. The reality is th
201 MaverickM11 : If you're AS, would you rather take the lowest SEALAX fare (around $100), or the SEALAX prorate off of the lowest SEAGRU fare (about $20)?
202 LipeGIG : They're just fighting for the 2 UA frequencies and AA is asking for 1. Probably DOT will grant AA 1 and DL 1... so what to expect... a two weekly fli
203 Victrola : What type of equipment would they need for ICN MEX GRU? Remember that MEX has an altitude situation. Is there anything that can do MEX ICN with a ful
204 Lambert747 : 77L or A345, if I am not mistaken. However, I cannot see KE operating ICN-MEX nonstop, SkyTeam or not. The connections from AM to South America can b
205 Viscount724 : I think that even they would be subject to some payload restrictions on a 6541 nm nonstop from MEX's high altitude.
206 Hardiwv : I really dont think making money is secondary in DL or any other airlines run as serious business, especially in such high competitive environment. I
207 C010T3 : That would kill an eventual application for GIG frequencies next year.
208 WorldTraveler : MEX-Asia can't be operated nonstop except poss. w/ the 77L because of MEX' altitude. MEX - Asia will have a high degree of traffic leakage to US gatew
209 Hardiwv : And GRU-LAX could kill DL application for GRU-LAX daily in 2010. Very good point about the synergies with NW which we normally overlook. The same way
210 Incitatus : GRU-JFK-NRT on JL (not daily) GRU-CDG-NRT on AF (twice daily) GRU-FRA-NRT on LH GRU-MUC-NRT on LH (not daily) GRU-LHR-NRT on BA GRU-ZRH-NRT on LX GRU
211 Hardiwv : You forgot EK GRU-DXB-NRT. In fact, I have inside information from EK that one of the reasons which may trigger EK to implement a second daily DXB-GR
212 MaverickM11 : They don't fly to NRT Except for the whole "filling the plane with anything but low yield passengers" part DL's international seats out of LAX are do
213 Hardiwv : Sorry, KIX and NGO. In fact, most of the Brazilian community in japan lives around NGO area. Rgs,
214 Incitatus : Yes, I forgot that one - a very popular and affordable choice when it is available. Right now it is not available as a one stop because AC is flying
215 LAXintl : Other half? The flights dont even connect -- you expect travellers to hang around LAX for 11hr 15mins Eastbound and 6hr 45mins Westbound to connect t
216 WorldTraveler : or demonstrate that it is viable for daily service. but that says nothing about how much demand is there. I have flown several of those GRU-US flight
217 C010T3 : Why? A thrice weekly flight is a pretty good candidate for extra frequencies. However, DL cannot count on the revocation of CONAC's resolution # 006/
218 LAXintl : The NRT flights would not be re-timed unless NW/DL want to give up on its NRT mini-hub operation. Between NRT curfew's, slots and the intra-Asia flyi
219 MaverickM11 : I've never stated otherwise. Here are a few, quite substantiated, facts. Where are yours?
220 WorldTraveler : all of this is either inaccurate or has nothing to do with DL's ability to make LAX-GRU work. You also assume that what DL has now at LAX is what DL
221 Incitatus : Come on. Delta is applying to get two frequencies a week, it is going to borrow another frequency from somewhere (JFK-GRU, which according to you is
222 OA412 : In fairness to WT, he didn't say they'd build a hub at LAX, he said they'd add more flights to LAX.
223 DeltaL1011man : Well I would say its some kind of sign. They could have gone after DTW-GRU which by the time its started it would be a Delta Air Lines Inc. hub (aka
224 MaverickM11 : It's 100% accurate. Prove me wrong otherwise. I know you can't. Nope. DL is going to add all kinds of LAX connectivity by DEC09? Keep dreaming. That
225 DeltaL1011man : so he has changed his story two times then? Well I wouldn't say a large number but I wouldn't rule out a few routes. Plus a new RJ carrier at LAX. (O
226 WorldTraveler : WT has the one that has steadfastly maintained that DL would fly to deep S. America and would add transpac routes from LAX. That has not changed. DL
227 Lambert747 : There is little if any demand for a route such as DTW-GRU. Hub or no hub there is very little traffic and business trade between DTW and GRU, let alo
228 DeltaL1011man : Not sure I can agree The only 3-4 routes that might come back to LAX (that I have heard) are mainline. Well 2-3 now that FLL is back. I will say this
229 LAXintl : Sure anything is possible, however you are going to loose some many NRT beyond connections now as you are changing the times by 5hrs and 3hr30mins re
230 Post contains links and images 717-200 : Actually when OZ began service to SEA back in the mid '90s they used the 767-300ER on the route to Kimpo before the days of ICN. View Large View Medi
231 LAXdude1023 : That is true. DTW-GRU would be hard. Even thought the O&D to GRU isnt astronomical from hubs like ATL, DFW, and IAH, they can get 40-60 O&D pax on a
232 Lambert747 : The other thing that DTW lacks to Brazil is a VFR market. ATL, IAH, DFW, all have a decent Brazilian VFR market due to the Brazilian ex-pat communiti
233 Cws818 : DL has a substantial fleet now, and a recently-emptied (to an extent) terminal @ LAX. The results speak for themselves, or, rather, the lack of resul
234 WorldTraveler : it is also very possible that DL could choose to operate TWO flights/day LAX-NRT, with smaller aircraft than the 744. One would be better timed to co
235 Incitatus : Building LAX on a strategy of pushing Asia South America connecting traffic is borrowing a page from 25 years ago when the world was very different.
236 MaverickM11 : Seriously? Did you not notice the whole RJ slash and burn we've been going through, especially with 50 seaters and smaller? Eh...no. M11 understands
237 Cubsrule : I tend to agree that DTW-GRU can probably work if ORD-GRU does. Does NW serve more cities ex-DTW than UA serves ex-ORD? I feel like they might.
238 LAXdude1023 : The one thing I will say that might make DTW work is the fact that it has NGO and KIX connections. Its O&D is smaller, but not nonexistant. Although
239 Cubsrule : No question, but I can point to a specific industry in Detroit (the auto industry) with fairly tight ties to Brazil. I can't really do that in Chicag
240 Incitatus : While Ford and GM are big in Brazil and the subsidiaries generate travel to their headquarters, their product lines in Brazil are very similar to For
241 Lambert747 : It is obvious that KE still reads from that book, and has found success. Some rumors remain stories, while others transcend time. DTW and ORD are opp
242 Cubsrule : Where's the ex-pat community concentrated? I grew up in Chicago and never knew about a population of Brazilians... you've piqued my interest.
243 DeltaL1011man : So DL is the only smart one out of the bunch then? hardly. I take it the other airlines seem to think a merger was a bad idea. I would say that FL,F9
244 Jetlanta : No. It says that most of them couldn't find the right partner, the right deal, or an interested buyer. FL wanted a deal with YX. YX and F9 are fighti
245 WorldTraveler : and so are alot of other airlines at LAX. Wanna tell us how much UA is down at LAX? Jetlanta answered well but alot of airlines wanted mergers but de
246 DeltaL1011man : Maybe so but what is the largest International hub? ATL what other hubs have had international routes cut/downgraded? LAX,CVG,JFK and SLC. Point of t
247 Cubsrule : The best thing for AA long-term would probably be picking up pieces of US East in Chapter 7. You're right, though, that there's not much they can do
248 WorldTraveler : ATL has had routes cut? VIE? The fact that ATL has had proportionately less cut is a tribute to how strong the ATL hub is, not that DL isn't committe
249 Post contains links Lambert747 : Here is some information on Brazilians in Chicago: http://www.brazilianculturalcenter.org/ http://www.encyclopedia.chicagohistory.org/pages/1542.html
250 C010T3 : Brazilians generally don't concentrate. The only exceptions in the world can be found in MA and NJ. Brazilians are averse to ghetto building and try
251 DeltaL1011man : Never said ATL didn't have route cuts. JFK and LAX have had FAR more than we have though. Never said that it would mean no growth but getting smaller
252 WorldTraveler : and tell how many CITIES have the same level of service they had 3 years ago? Precious few. Practically every city is seeing reduced levels of seats
253 Lambert747 : Exactly! The Brazilians that I know which include both friends, and family can be found in many different places including: San Francisco, Los Angele
254 Panamair : That is completely untrue and you know it. JFK now has around 200 departures a day (including DCI) during the peak season and this is more than at an
255 Cubsrule : Agreed. Usually, though, you can find SOME indication of a relatively large population. I've never seen anything in Chicago. Very interesting...
256 MaverickM11 : No one has said other airlines were going to grow LAX into the next DL @ JFK, but in the interest of your never ending quest for self affirmation, UA
257 WorldTraveler : There has NEVER been a time when DL was larger than UA at LAX so I'm not sure what point you want to make that DL is down ALONG WITH UA and other car
258 DeltaL1011man : AA at MIA is still growing and or not cutting anything. ATL most likely has more flights. DFW,IAH and CLT seem to have grown and or still growing. If
259 MaverickM11 : How are you not understanding that what DL recently did at LAX was very different from the other carriers simply reducing service? DL added a ton of
260 Jetlanta : Everybody, but maybe Virgin, is smaller than they were before at LAX. Much smaller. You know that vast majority of that service was ExpressJet pro-ra
261 WorldTraveler : And tell us what has been added. I know it absolutely hates for you to admit it, but DL has added more service than it has removed. But you obviously
262 MaverickM11 : Of course, but it's still quite a bit of mainline capacity, and it still remains clear that DL couldn't make profitable inroads into the markets that
263 Panamair : Alright, now you're forcing me to go all Lambert on you! Cuts from JFK in 2008: AUS, LGW, OTP, BOM, CDG, SJD, PTY, GUA, SJO, LIR Added to JFK in 2008
264 WorldTraveler : see Jetlanta's post. LAX is still primarily a spoke city for DL. It will be developed at the appropriate time. In all likelihood, int'l longhaul expan
265 Jetlanta : Yeah, but the mainline capacity DL has cut is not out of line with AA, and especially UA. In this environment, it is silly to look at DL in a vacuum.
266 Post contains images OA412 : ORY was never cut as it was simply never started.    [Edited 2008-09-11 16:53:21][Edited 2008-09-11 16:54:01]
267 FlyDreamliner : What has worked well at NW will, more likely than not, continue to work well and make money for DL. Combining what works well at DL and what works we
268 LAXintl : Since when is revenue a measure of size? Normally its number of flights, seats in the market, ASMs or even movements help denote size or the scope of
269 WorldTraveler : uhhh.... it is the basis of comparison of ALL companies and ALL units within any company. Further, it is the basis by which we can say, for instance,
270 Cubsrule : You're confusing absolute size with market share. Look to the auto industry, for instance. We talk all about market share of various manufacturers, b
271 Jetlanta : Well, it is how airlines compare their size in a market with each other. Revenue Share is the single most important measure that airlines use when lo
272 Post contains links LAXintl : Yes, but are talking about airline presence at a specific airport. If revenue is the key measure, I suggest you quickly contact people such as the DO
273 Jetlanta : That's because you've never had a job that has had access to market-level revenues. You can show me every operational stat you want. If you REALLY th
274 LAXdude1023 : Absolutely. This isnt Atlanta. We are a much larger, much more complex, much more international market than Atlanta. DL wont recieve a heros welcome
275 WorldTraveler : as Jetlanta says, revenue is the key for everything - including airlines. Share is simply the division of the total reported revenue among the airlin
276 LAXintl : I guess what I do these days does not count then I do see the DOT 10% coupon data, GDS MIDT tapes along with IATA traffic and ticket reports. Still d
277 Jetlanta : I really don't care what data you look at. If you aren't working in an airline Network Planning department, or haven't in the past, you don't know wh
278 DeltaL1011man : WN? (note am asking a question) In the last year? Ok LYS,AGP,IST,KBP,LHR,DKR(-CPT),CAI,AMM and TLV. (BTW I am a DL lover get it now or should I post
279 DeltaL1011man : and one lost VIE. But on my last count DL still leads JFK something like 23-25. In terms of A/C size then DL wins as 7-8(?) JFK flights are 757s and
280 Cws818 : Yes, it will get growth and re-growth. AA/AS/UA will undoubtedly attempt to increase their SoCal market shares when circumstances make that possible.
281 Cws818 : That is only partially true. First, DL is the only airline who has penned a merger agreement. AA, AS, CO seem to have determined that a merger is mor
282 WorldTraveler : Traffic data is far faster to come by... and airports themselves don't really care much about what kind of revenue a passenger brings but how many pa
283 DeltaL1011man : Point? AA has 7 777s on order they will send them somewhere. Because I call you out on your LAX hub promises? That means I must not like DL?
284 WorldTraveler : for delivery when? I don't expect anyone to blanket endorse anything but you have some serious axes to grind. Again,, I wouldn't recommend your idea
285 DeltaL1011man : WT I don't think I can say it any clearer. You want to mark me as a DL hater fine but you wrong. Sometime before 2015.
286 WorldTraveler : that is fine. I would ask that you be objective instead of so emotional in your statements then. By 2015, DL will have replaced the 744 fleet it will
287 DeltaL1011man : That would be really stupid. The 744s might be on the way out but to replace them by 2015? Hell some of them are not very old at all. And I'll say it
288 United1 : I don't know if you are going to see much of an increase in AAs international widebody flying because of this, a good chunk of that capacity is going
289 MAH4546 : A300 capacity will largely be replaced by increased frequency and the new, higher density 160 seat 737-800s. For example, MIA-PTY can go from 1x 757/
290 SoBe : In 2015, 10 out of 16 will be 25 and 26 years old. At that point would DL want to keep running the last 6 as a small sub-fleet?
291 DeltaL1011man : 25-26 isn't that old. As long as the 76Es keep trucking the 744s will fly right next to them. Sadly If DL ordered the 77W i would be very happy and w
292 Cws818 : Sadly, you are incorrect. UA previously flew LAX-GRU (obviously discontinued for sometime) and did so at the same time they flew Transpacific routes
293 WorldTraveler : I didn't say no one else ever flew the route. But UA has clearly not developed the route if it no longer operates it. the people that influence compa
294 Post contains links Cws818 : No, what you asserted was that no US carrier has, up until the current DL application, attempted to develop Los Angeles-South America in tandem with
295 WorldTraveler : my original wording was that UA has not developed LAX-S.America. You may argue with what "developed" means but given they don't operate it anymore doe
296 Cws818 : Thank you for reading what I wrote regarding corporate structure. Your reading comprehension is excellent. One would hope so. This thread is about LA
297 MaverickM11 : DL will be stealing from itself in ATL primarily. Mainline DL seats are down 20-25% this month through DEC.
298 MaverickM11 : That's totally untrue. And they were dropped......why? You of all people should heed your own advice.
299 Jetlanta : Then perhaps you can enlighten me?
300 MaverickM11 : How do you determine the revenue share at an airport for any point in the future, say first quarter 2009?
301 Jetlanta : That's not a measure. It's a projection. Apples & oranges. We are talking about measures. I stand by my statement. Network Planning departments acros
302 MaverickM11 : Where does that revenue data come from, broken out by airport and airline?
303 Viscount724 : Braniff also operated nonstop LAX-South America for a few years before they went out of business in 1982. If memory correct their nonstop destination
304 Hardiwv : And what about the question raised about on the potential of DL teaming up with KE and therefore offering 6 weekly operations for LAX-GRU? Would it be
305 Jetlanta : DOT DB1B and Adjusted MIDT can each provide this data. DB1B would typically be used in domestic markets, while the MIDT would be used in internationa
306 MaverickM11 : The problem is that data is full of pitfalls (ie carriers missing) and delayed. If you're looking at size, it is almost always seats, departures, ASM
307 Post contains links Jetlanta : The carriers use thoroughly scrubbed data, not what you get off the DOT website,. It always has some minor issues, but is considered accurate by the
308 WorldTraveler : Based on 1st quarter 2008 data, DL carried 16% of LAX-GRU passengers - 10% over ATL and 6% over JFK. AA carried 45% of LAXGRU traffic over MIA, DFW,
309 Cws818 : And the other 39% would be from whom? I'd venture that DL would pull traffic off of CO or UA before AA, simply based on the strength of AA's schedule
310 Hardiwv : From June 2008 you also have to consider KE LAX-GRU 3 x weekly service with the 3-class B772. I am sure KE would also have pulled away many pax from
311 Cws818 : This is pure speculation, but I would assume that, given the state of the LAX-Brazil market, KE/DL could at least request the same treatment that UA/
312 MaverickM11 : Oh I'm well aware...you can scrub it all you want; it's still an estimate based off agency bookings and airlines like Ryanair will not show accurate,
313 Cubsrule : I'd normally agree with this assertion, but since MIA and JFK are likely the two best-yielding US destinations ex-Brazil, I'm not sure that's true. S
314 MaverickM11 : I'm just talking about the LAX pax connecting over those hubs
315 Cubsrule : ...but I'm still not sure it's true. Of the American carriers, AA most likely carries the most local passengers to Brazil, which may mean that they h
316 Jetlanta : OK, completely wrong on two major counts... First, DOT data is not an estimate of agency data. DOT data is basically a 10% sample of all flight coupo
317 MaverickM11 : I'm not talking about DOT data. I believe WN and B6 weren't included in DB1B until recently either. Yes. But to judge their absolute size at any airp
318 Jetlanta : No, you are referring to MIDT. WN and B6 have always been included in DB1B. It isn't optional. (Unless you are VX and trying to skirt the issue) This
319 MaverickM11 : I don't often deal with domestic so that's possible. I don't know what airline you've been in contact with but that is simply not true. It's RASM, if
320 Jetlanta : All of them, literally. It's my job. RASM is just a breakdown of Revenue. And nobody compares RASM on an airport level due to varying stage lengths o
321 WorldTraveler : airlines long ago gave up the idea that hauling the most passengers is the best business strategy. DL did that for years but it couldn't make money w/
322 MaverickM11 : OK, so lets say AA has 110% of the revenue of DL at COS. What does that mean for AA or DL? Of course they focus on revenue, but comparing total reven
323 Abrelosojos : Wow. This is becoming quite the thread - amusing reading as I wait for a long winding route to DRC that would have defied many QSI routings. = However
324 Jetlanta : It means that AA is 10% larger at COS vs. Delta. More importantly, look at it this way... At LAX, AA may have fewer ops and paxs than UA, but it actu
325 Cubsrule : But network planning is not a pissing match. I hope that networks don't get planned based on competitive sizes...
326 WorldTraveler : it is doubtful that DL will be able to obtain antitrust immunity w/ an Asian airline on US-Latin America routes. There is no example of ATI between a
327 MaverickM11 : It's one of the metrics. The revenue data by airport for other airlines is not as accurate as schedule data, nor can it be used to compare future, pr
328 Viscount724 : However for most of them it's still less of a hassle to connect in Canada or Europe. That's no doubt a major reason why AC carried many of the Olympi
329 WorldTraveler : yes it is but the US carriers have more seats from Latin America to Asia connecting over the US than any other country does. US carriers won't get al
330 FlyASAGuy2005 : Wow, i'm going to take my time tonight and read through the thread so that I can comment. In the mean time, can we get a part deuce?............
331 Cubsrule : Why not EZE? SCL would be very tough if EZE wouldn't work-- EZE is a much larger market with no competition.
332 Jetlanta : Trust me, that is not how planning is done. But the issue was the relative size of carriers at a particular airport. My point all along has been that
333 WorldTraveler : EZE is very much a possibility but it is a thinner market and there is less rlow from EZE to Asia. Most of EZE's int'l flow is to Europe and much les
334 Cubsrule : I don't think Asia connections can sustain any of these flights by themselves, though--and I think DL is making a big mistake if they're counting on
335 Hardiwv : Very interesting information. Also you have to consider that a possible DL LAX-GRU could capture new traffic from West Coast and at the same time gen
336 MaverickM11 : Just answer the question. Have you ever compared it to actuals? Of course ASMs on their own are not the be all end all.
337 Jetlanta : Who's actuals? Airport "actuals" that don't know the difference between revenue and non-revenue passengers or zero-fare passengers? I'm not sure why
338 Abrelosojos : = Let us not group all Latin governments as being "scared of US carriers right now". Anywhere there is ability, the bilaterals have changed. LAN, Avi
339 Abrelosojos : = Jetlanta and MaverickM11 ... both of you are right and get over your contest. You are comparing two different things. MaverickM11 is referring to a
340 MaverickM11 : No, I'm saying every airline is careful how they use these tools and are aware of their shortcomings. I'm down with that
341 Lambert747 : Last we all checked AA does not fly LAX-GRU, UA ended LAX-GRU years ago, and WN doesn't fly south of the border. DL is offering a route that no other
342 Jetlanta : Not exactly. He is arguing that carriers do not measure their relative size at an airport by Revenue Share because he has never seen them do so. He t
343 WorldTraveler : yes there would be some traffic stimulation. And yes, there would be some diversion from other west coast flights. Part of the reason why LAX-GRU wou
344 United1 : Actually UA has grown its network since 2003 (when the earliest of the routes that you mentioned, LAX-AKL, was discontinued.) Asia Pacific 2003 Decem
345 LAXintl : LAXdude1023's point is that just becasuse some one adds a flight does not mean that people will flock to it. There are extremely strong corporate rel
346 Lambert747 : I mentioned LAX-GRU, not LAX-CDG Grown in one aspect, and shrunk in another. Routes Terminated - 2001 Onwards: HKG-DEL HKG-NRT HNL-KIX JFK-HKG JFK-NR
347 LAXintl : Regardless of citypair adjustments, United Pacific ops have grown over the years as the ASM numbers show.
348 United1 : AFAIK ORD-DEL was never announced simply rumored....on here. The only two areas where UA has actually shrunk over the past few years (when did 2001 b
349 Hardiwv : You forgot IAD-GIG dedicated daily. Rgs,
350 OA412 : ORD-DEL was announced in an official UA press release. IINM the flight was even put on sale prior to the decision not to begin the flight.
351 United1 : Your right, I just looked it up interesting I never thought it got that far along. I'm assuming it got squashed after 9/11?
352 LAXintl : It was much more then a rumor. Here is the press release. Matter of fact, UA was to do a proving run on the route on 9/12 or 9/13 as I recall, which
353 Post contains links Viscount724 : On August 16, 2001 UA did announce daily ORD-DEL nonstop service to commence October 27, 2001. Due to 9/11 it never happened. First part of the relev
354 United1 : Gotcha....neat didnt know that particular bit of trivia.
355 Victrola : As a frequent traveller to Latin America living in Los Angeles, I am very doubtful the Delta flights to Sao Paulo will work. I am an American Airlines
356 Jetlanta : If AA can't get you there nonstop and Delta can, they cease having the best network to the region for L.A. customers. You may not change your habits,
357 OOer : With over 350 replies can we please get a part 2 to this thread....
358 WorldTraveler : I'd like to know what business you are in where you accept the status quo in the industry and say that if you aren't number one, don't even bother. I
359 Cubsrule : I think that statement needs to be amended slightly, at least for business travelers. They change their habits when presented with convenient nonstop
360 MaverickM11 : I never argued that. But what do you propose airlines do once they have that information? Increase revenue? How would they go about doing that? Third
361 United1 : I'm curious how you come up with that projection... DL/CO mainline numbers DL RPM YTD 7,308,732 (+5.0% from last year) DL ASM YTD 9,077,990 (-0.4% fr
362 Abrelosojos : = I really do not understand the logic of your comments here. Please clarify. Are you telling me that LAX is the #1 O&D destination in the U.S. for M
363 Nickofatlanta : I think this has come up before. It depends how you determine Latin America. I think if you count only South America, DL wins, but if you add in Cent
364 Viscount724 : That is not correct. Singapore and Brunei are also VWP participants.
365 WorldTraveler : I am saying that for DL's JFKLAX route, TLV is the #3 flow O&D. the same format is used for each leg. Keep in mind this is one carrier, one route. If
366 Victrola : People who are travelling exclusively to Sao Paulo will certainly find the flight attractive. What I am saying is that you have to balance out the co
367 Victrola : I will remind you that Delta has spent the last several years floundering about here at LAX. They couldn't even make Mexico City, Tokyo, or Hong Kong
368 Cubsrule : Largest how? Do you mean longest?
369 WorldTraveler : yes, longest. I believe LAX-GRU would be the longest Latin route operated by any US airline.
370 Cubsrule : AFAIK that's correct.
371 Lambert747 : Brand loyalty is going by the wayside with the US airlines. In regards to the notion that people are willing to take a detour via DFW and deal with a
372 Jetlanta : Seriously, give it up. I am quite familiar with the limitations of all the data. I've spent more than a decade working in or with the Network Plannin
373 Cws818 : Yes, it is a "major traffic and revenue generator" for those international traffic flows. However, it is frankly uncertain if those traffic flows wou
374 Abrelosojos : = Yes. I know. I meant it in the context of only major Asian country. Please see my comment below earlier ... = Rather immaterial? It is what started
375 EMB170 : Moreover, IIRC, wasn't ORD-DEL supposed to have held the world record as the world's longest nonstop passenger flight at the time?
376 Cubsrule : Is that true when the service is less than daily? I'm not sure that inconvenient nonstop service will have the effect you claim; DL is not flying JAX
377 Abrelosojos : = Yet, the premium demand is much lower than one thinks. If you don't believe me (and Jetlanta can also double check), go to O&D demand between LAX a
378 HB-IWC : I am locking this thread because of its extensive length. If anyone feels that discussion should be furthered, he or she should feel free to start a n
379 United1 : ORD-HKG is about 350mi or so further then ORD-DEL
Top Of Page
Forum Index

This topic is archived and can not be replied to any more.

Printer friendly format

Similar topics:More similar topics...
Delta Applies For LAX-CUN posted Thu Sep 8 2005 05:03:14 by MAH4546
Any Delta Plans For SkyWest@LAX? posted Mon Jan 1 2007 01:41:22 by Simairlinenet
Mexicana Applies For Culiacan - LAX posted Sat Dec 9 2006 17:57:39 by Laxintl
Delta Applies For SLC-GDL posted Thu Jul 27 2006 22:17:18 by MAH4546
Tikal Jets Applies For GUA-LAX/MIA posted Sat Mar 4 2006 04:17:00 by BigGSFO
Delta Applies For ATL-ZIH posted Tue Oct 4 2005 03:47:17 by MAH4546
Delta Applies For JFK-CUN posted Fri Sep 23 2005 01:54:47 by BigGSFO
Delta Applies For ATL-PVR posted Mon Aug 1 2005 18:39:21 by MAH4546
Delta Applies For MCO-CUN posted Wed May 18 2005 00:23:33 by DAL767400ER
Surprise! Delta Applies For SLC-PVR posted Sat Apr 23 2005 04:20:20 by MAH4546
Delta Applies For LAX-CUN posted Thu Sep 8 2005 05:03:14 by MAH4546
Any Delta Plans For SkyWest@LAX? posted Mon Jan 1 2007 01:41:22 by Simairlinenet
Mexicana Applies For Culiacan - LAX posted Sat Dec 9 2006 17:57:39 by Laxintl
Delta Applies For SLC-GDL posted Thu Jul 27 2006 22:17:18 by MAH4546
Tikal Jets Applies For GUA-LAX/MIA posted Sat Mar 4 2006 04:17:00 by BigGSFO
Delta Applies For ATL-ZIH posted Tue Oct 4 2005 03:47:17 by MAH4546
Delta Applies For JFK-CUN posted Fri Sep 23 2005 01:54:47 by BigGSFO
Delta Applies For ATL-PVR posted Mon Aug 1 2005 18:39:21 by MAH4546
Delta Applies For MCO-CUN posted Wed May 18 2005 00:23:33 by DAL767400ER
Surprise! Delta Applies For SLC-PVR posted Sat Apr 23 2005 04:20:20 by MAH4546
Any Delta Plans For SkyWest@LAX? posted Mon Jan 1 2007 01:41:22 by Simairlinenet
Mexicana Applies For Culiacan - LAX posted Sat Dec 9 2006 17:57:39 by Laxintl
Delta Applies For SLC-GDL posted Thu Jul 27 2006 22:17:18 by MAH4546
Tikal Jets Applies For GUA-LAX/MIA posted Sat Mar 4 2006 04:17:00 by BigGSFO
Delta Applies For ATL-ZIH posted Tue Oct 4 2005 03:47:17 by MAH4546
Delta Applies For JFK-CUN posted Fri Sep 23 2005 01:54:47 by BigGSFO
Delta Applies For ATL-PVR posted Mon Aug 1 2005 18:39:21 by MAH4546
Delta Applies For MCO-CUN posted Wed May 18 2005 00:23:33 by DAL767400ER
Surprise! Delta Applies For SLC-PVR posted Sat Apr 23 2005 04:20:20 by MAH4546