Dellatorre From Brazil, joined May 2000, 1087 posts, RR: 2 Reply 2, posted (5 years 3 months 1 week 6 days 13 hours ago) and read 20084 times:
That is a bit unexpected!!! Never heard of DL being interested in flying such route. Maybe it has something to do with KE performance over the specific segment. Since KE does not have extra frequencies, DL is taking take of that.
If DL manages to get those frequencies, I guess JJ interest in LAX will be weaker than ever!!!
Klkla From United States of America, joined Jul 2004, 856 posts, RR: 0 Reply 3, posted (5 years 3 months 1 week 6 days 13 hours ago) and read 20065 times:
This will be a godsend for me if approved.
Looks like they will be fighting AA over those United authorities. From the same link provided in the original post (if you scroll up the page). This is part of Delta's response to AA's application:
"However, Delta has today filed a competing application for re-allocation of both of the dormant U.S.-Brazil frequencies currently allocated to United. Delta would use these two frequencies to open a new U.S. carrier gateway at Los Angeles. The relief requested by Delta and American are mutually exclusive, and the Department is required to institute a comparative selection proceeding to consider the merits of the competing applications in accordance with Ashbacker Radio Corp. v. FCC."
AF086 From France, joined Jan 2007, 1040 posts, RR: 9 Reply 5, posted (5 years 3 months 1 week 6 days 13 hours ago) and read 20037 times:
Using which freqiencies? There are only two left in the pool which can be used anywhere. The new frequencies (the second round of the expansion) of the bilateral will only be available next july and cannot be used at GRU.
AF086 From France, joined Jan 2007, 1040 posts, RR: 9 Reply 7, posted (5 years 3 months 1 week 6 days 13 hours ago) and read 19974 times:
Quoting Klkla (Reply 6): In addition to the two they want from United they would reallocate one of their existing twenty one allocations.
United uses 14 of their 21 frequencies all year yound and the other 7 during the peak season on the IAD-GIG nonstop service. UA already lost 7 US-Brazil frequencies to Delta in the past, let's see how they'll react this time.
The ones AA and DL want to strip are the 2 odd ones which were hand me downs from Pan Am and grandfathered outside the normal DOT dormancy rules.
So firstly, the DOT has to determine of they can truly strip United of the frequencies, and secondly if so run a route selection competition between AA and DL as they both are contesting the same things.
In other words -- neither AA nor DL are about to start anything this winter as both their applications wish for as this will be a drawn out exercise.
From the desert to the sea, to all of Southern California
RoseFlyer From United States of America, joined Feb 2004, 9154 posts, RR: 52 Reply 12, posted (5 years 3 months 1 week 6 days 12 hours ago) and read 19905 times:
I am very surprised DL is wanting to do LAX-GRU. It seems from the lay person's perspective that the route makes a lot of sense since GRU is south of LAX. But if you look at the map, you'd realize that LAX-GRU only saves 250 miles over LAX-MIA-GRU. MIA and ATL are the logical takeoff points for South America.
This route also is extremely long for a 763ER. I'm surprised it can make it that far. LAX-GRU is about the same length as LAX-ICN and no airline flies from the US to Asia nonstop on a 767. If DL will fly to GRU from LAX, then I guess they could do Asia from LAX with their 767s, although South America has fewer winds to deal with.
If you have never designed an airplane part before, let the real designers do the work!
Klkla From United States of America, joined Jul 2004, 856 posts, RR: 0 Reply 14, posted (5 years 3 months 1 week 6 days 12 hours ago) and read 19854 times:
Quoting RoseFlyer (Reply 12): But if you look at the map, you'd realize that LAX-GRU only saves 250 miles over LAX-MIA-GRU. MIA and ATL are the logical takeoff points for South America.
Speaking only from my own perspective, from someone who flies LAX-GRU 5-6 times a year, the possibility of a upgradeable non-stop flight is a huge advantage and saves a lot of time not having to make connections. I have no idea how many other people in LA would appreciate this benefit but for me it would be huge.
HALFA From United States of America, joined Jan 2004, 1337 posts, RR: 16 Reply 15, posted (5 years 3 months 1 week 6 days 12 hours ago) and read 19815 times:
Quoting Alitalia744 (Thread starter): Delta filed for 3x weekly LAX-GRU today with the DOT to begin on 12/14/2008 with 767-332ER aircraft.
I'm shocked, but I will be SO happy if they get the route and start service soon!.
Quoting Dellatorre (Reply 2): Maybe it has something to do with KE performance over the specific segment.
Perhaps, as well as looking at RG's loads on the route during their years of serving LAX.
Quoting Cubsrule (Reply 4): This may be a stupid question, but isn't LAX-GRU a fairly long route for a 763?
That was my first thought as well. Not a stupid question at all. I think if it happens, it will be weight restricted quite often. AC was/is weight restricted frequently on their flights from GRU to YYZ.
Quoting RoseFlyer (Reply 12): LAX-GRU is about the same length as LAX-ICN and no airline flies from the US to Asia nonstop on a 767.
I know what you meant with this statement, but technically it's not true. Hawaii is in the US and Manila is in Asia. HA flies 4 times weekly from HNL to MNL on a 767-300. Please don't forget about us.
C010T3 From Brazil, joined Jul 2006, 3612 posts, RR: 20 Reply 19, posted (5 years 3 months 1 week 6 days 12 hours ago) and read 19675 times:
Well, if the route works, I predict that DL will apply for the GRU-restricted frequencies of July and use them on ATL-GIG. That would free up the GRU-unrestricted frequencies for a daily LAX-GRU. The only problem that DL is probably not anticipating are the slots at GRU for the departure. They might only get some after midnight.
JKJ777 From United States of America, joined Aug 2007, 397 posts, RR: 0 Reply 20, posted (5 years 3 months 1 week 6 days 11 hours ago) and read 19641 times:
This could work. I have flown the ATL flight 101 and 110 numerous times in the past months and that flight is ALWAYS full regardless of the aircraft type. From talking to fellow passengers it seems as if a great majority of those folks are conitnuing on to South America. If that one flight is any indication of how a direct LAX-South America would work, DL will enjoy the potential profits. I hope to see them get it and do well with it.
Oh my, how funny so many doubted the crazed WorldTraveler and other DL supporters for their predictions of LAX-international routes even to places like South America. This is good stuff..
believe me I smile at what comes out of ATL more and more these days. Yes, I predicted 767 service from LAX to South America and as Alitalia744 notes, I've also predicted, 767 service from LAX to Asia.
KE does not operate daily service. DL is proposing 3X/week. The two could be quite complementary.
There is little headwind operating a north-south route like this. The route should amount to 12 - 12.5 hrs in the air, well within the range of a 767, esp. one w/ winglets.
Part of DL's point in this whole exercise is to ensure that AA does not use frequency stripping to add frequencies to the Brazil route case in which DL was clearly awarded the majority of the frequencies.
Adding an additional frequency or two to AA to a new Brazil city is not worth near as much a new route to the largest Brazil market from one of the top O&Ds to Brazil. Whether DL wins or not is probably not as important as that they will prevent AA from walking away from these frequencies.
HALFA From United States of America, joined Jan 2004, 1337 posts, RR: 16 Reply 23, posted (5 years 3 months 1 week 6 days 11 hours ago) and read 19478 times:
Quoting C010T3 (Reply 19): The only problem that DL is probably not anticipating are the slots at GRU for the departure. They might only get some after midnight.
This shouldn't be too big of a problem. Those of us who flew regularly on RG's GRU-LAX nonstop were quite used to leaving GRU very late in the evening. IIRC, RG's flight left GRU at 11:50pm. (When it was on time )
This might be a better departure time for crew scheduling purposes as well. They could schedule an early afternoon departure from LAX with an early morning arrival in GRU. The crew could then go to the hotel and get a full day's rest, like they do with their ATL-GIG, and ATL-GRU flights, and then work the flight back to LAX that same evening, with an early morning arrival in LAX, as opposed to having a crew layover at GRU for 2 and 3 nights since it will only operate 3 X weekly.
Quoting WorldTraveler (Reply 21): There is little headwind operating a north-south route like this. The route should amount to 12 - 12.5 hrs in the air, well within the range of a 767, esp. one w/ winglets.
The normal flight time on this route is closer to 11 hours 20-40 minutes, and you are correct, winds are not usually a problem.
Panamair From United States of America, joined Oct 2001, 4713 posts, RR: 26 Reply 24, posted (5 years 3 months 1 week 6 days 10 hours ago) and read 19428 times:
Quoting HALFA (Reply 23): They could schedule an early afternoon departure from LAX with an early morning arrival in GRU.
The proposed schedule has a 2100 (9pm) departure out of LAX and an afternoon arrival at GRU (1pm or 3pm depending on season). Return is supposed to leave GRU at either 2120 or 2255 depending on season, with a 0600 arrival at LAX.
25 WorldTraveler: DL's route application states that the shortest segment would be LAX-GRU in the summer at 12.1 block hours and the longest segment would be 13.1 for G
26 Klkla: Maybe that explains something I thought was interesting about Delta's application. They said they would be flying the route with a 767-300ER with 34
27 AmtrakGuy: Maybe DL will code-share with NWA flights from Asia and Hawaii along with AS. DL may end up having 3 airlines to feed some passengers flying LAX -- GR
28 Lambert747: RG no longer serves LAX, let alone the USA... Indeed correct. DL could take advantage of the CI TPE-LAX, DL/NW NRT-LAX flight, the KE ICN-LAX flight,
29 EWRCabincrew: HA flies to MNL with a 767 and CO flew HNL-NGO with a 764.
30 Lambert747: UA has in the past from PDX and SEA AA has in the past from SJC (short period after 9-11 on SJC-NRT)
31 Klkla: The application asks for the service to begin in December. I don't think Delta will need to codeshare anything with NWA by December
32 LAXintl: Care to share the details as to when you believe this occurred? UA's 767-300s have not flown scheduled across the Pacific to Asia. Matter of fact the
33 Tonytifao: Wow! I think this would be a great addtition to DL network. I just think they need a better and more comfortable aircraft for this long route. They co
34 B777ER: IIRC, DL takes out the first couple J seats in the center (with some additional mod's) and has a large box type area that is enclosed and inside of t
35 United1: If your thinking back prior to the PA purchase UA used DC-10-30s and 747-100/200 series aircraft on SEA/PDX-NRT and SEA-HKG. The 767-200s were never
36 DeltaL1011man: I called it. I said that if DL can get any more GRU rights they will go to LAX or more ATL flights and I was told that the yields suck on this route a
37 United1: Thats exactly what they do seats 1C & 1E are removed to accommodate the box....does anyone know how many of the aircraft have or are scheduled to hav
38 HALFA: Join the club! Several of us have argued this point over the years as there are several members here that will continue to try and convince us that y
39 DeltaL1011man: Also the CZ flights I want to say its 12 but im not 100% on that.
40 Cws818: Your collective flashes of intuition notwithstanding, one would have thought that DL would have attempted an established, proven intercontinental rou
41 EXAAUADL: code share always generates less traffic than onlines connects. Only think D Lwill offer thru LAX is longer eplased times for SEA/PDX/YVR versus DFW
42 Transpac787: I'd imagine all of these 763's are to get the winglet mod??
43 MasseyBrown: There is good traffic potential from LAX to South America, but in the past it has been true about the yields. The profitability of eastern US-SA rout
44 Alitalia744: I should have said mainland. Exactly. Yes and more may be coming.[Edited 2008-08-30 09:35:26]
45 Evan767: Do you or anyone know how many orders Delta has for winglets for their 763ER's? Does Delta have options to put winglets on all of their 763ER's for f
46 Lambert747: Unless DL departs late at night the CZ connection will be useless.
47 DeltaL1011man: 30 for the 763s. DL has options to put winglets on all 757s,737s and 763ERs.
48 OOer: Most South American departures are at night...as they arrive early in the morning. I would expect a 10-11pm departure. The question I have is... DL o
49 LACA773: Will DL's schedule compliment KE's? I hope they get this route approved and it works out for them.
50 Evan767: First of all, Delta's longest 763ER flight is LOS-ATL, and even AMM-JFK is longer than TLV-JFK. And you should always base a route on block time, not
51 Lambert747: The same way the RG made the route work with the 767-300 second service in 2001...
52 Jmbarros12: I was wondering why DL would not use the 764's on this route... Is it too much of supply? If I'm not wrong, KE flies a 772 on GRU-LAX and if DL decid