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Boeing Strike = More 787 Delays?  
User currently offlineBoeingFever777 From United States of America, joined Jul 2009, 409 posts, RR: 53
Posted (6 years 3 weeks 2 days 9 hours ago) and read 9136 times:

How bad will the pending Boeing machinists/workers strike hurt the 787?

I know from what I've read and what has been posted on this site that the 787 is still on schedule for first flight in October I believe?

Why is Boeing fighting this after all the delays, disappointments, and compensation they have had to give 787 customers?

Boeing Union Urges Workers to Reject Offer and Strike

You think after all the  fight  aka blackeyes that this would be reason for Boeing to payup and not cause more  Embarrassment to the company and 787 delays.

Lord only knows if this is the case what it will do for the 787 program...  Sad


Thoughts are welcome and please no bashing of the 787.


Faire du ciel le plus bel endroit de la terre.
45 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlinePianos101 From United States of America, joined Jan 2008, 365 posts, RR: 0
Reply 1, posted (6 years 3 weeks 2 days 9 hours ago) and read 9113 times:



Quoting BoeingFever777 (Thread starter):
Thoughts are welcome and please no bashing of the 787.

What about union bashing?? :-P

But none of that in this thread either, please. We have that going on in other threads...

Back on topic: I read somewhere that even a one week strike will delay first flight into next year. Don't see how that's true, but I don't really know how that works anyway. I also heard that Boeing will be off the hook for (most of) the late payments to airlines. There must be a clause in the contract that says that if a labor strike occurs, all bets are off... Will be interesting to see how that part of this whole mess plays out...


User currently offlineBrilondon From Canada, joined Aug 2005, 4235 posts, RR: 1
Reply 2, posted (6 years 3 weeks 2 days 9 hours ago) and read 9085 times:



Quoting BoeingFever777 (Thread starter):
You think after all the aka blackeyes that this would be reason for Boeing to payup and not cause more to the company and 787 delays.

That is exactly what the union is thinking at this time. They think that Boeing is over a barrel on this contract. It would be irresponsible for Boeing to capitulate to the unions at this point in time.and give them what ever they want. The unions know this but they also know that if they strike and try to cripple Boeing they will be out of a job and thus make any strike meaningless.



Rush for ever; Yankees all the way!!
User currently offlineRoseFlyer From United States of America, joined Feb 2004, 9643 posts, RR: 52
Reply 3, posted (6 years 3 weeks 2 days 9 hours ago) and read 9076 times:

A strike by either engineering or machinists would severly impact the 787. An engineering strike would be even more costly since that would delay the 747-8 as well, although the engineering contract isn't up until February.

It really appears in my mind that with the latest contract that Boeing has really tried to give IAM everything they want.



If you have never designed an airplane part before, let the real designers do the work!
User currently offlineEPA001 From Netherlands, joined Sep 2006, 4739 posts, RR: 39
Reply 4, posted (6 years 3 weeks 2 days 9 hours ago) and read 9028 times:
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Let's just hope the parties will reach an agreement and that a strike can be avoided. It would be a shame to see the new development programmes slip even more. I want to see the B787 and the B748 in the air a.s.a.p.

User currently offlinePar13del From Bahamas, joined Dec 2005, 7229 posts, RR: 8
Reply 5, posted (6 years 3 weeks 2 days 9 hours ago) and read 9004 times:

Hopefully this thread will eventually get into a discussion of what the issue is about and not the effects of a possible strike, there was another thread about the pension agreement,

User currently offlineWedgetail737 From United States of America, joined Aug 2003, 5910 posts, RR: 6
Reply 6, posted (6 years 3 weeks 2 days 8 hours ago) and read 8956 times:
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Quoting RoseFlyer (Reply 3):
although the engineering contract isn't up until February.

The engineering contract is done in December of this year.


User currently offlineStitch From United States of America, joined Jul 2005, 31003 posts, RR: 86
Reply 7, posted (6 years 3 weeks 2 days 8 hours ago) and read 8902 times:
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Quoting BoeingFever777 (Thread starter):
How bad will the pending Boeing machinists/workers strike hurt the 787?

Effectively all work will stop on ZA001 through ZA004 at PAE. Work can continue on the plane pieces at the suppliers, but with the first four frames stuck at the FAL, no new planes can come in.


User currently offlineRoseFlyer From United States of America, joined Feb 2004, 9643 posts, RR: 52
Reply 8, posted (6 years 3 weeks 2 days 8 hours ago) and read 8859 times:



Quoting Pianos101 (Reply 1):

Back on topic: I read somewhere that even a one week strike will delay first flight into next year. Don't see how that's true, but I don't really know how that works anyway.

That would surprise me because while IAM and machinists were on strike, engineering would be able to catch up on releases which would not mean that a 1 to 1 slide is likely. However, I don't really know how the 787 program works though.



If you have never designed an airplane part before, let the real designers do the work!
User currently offlineBok269 From United States of America, joined May 2007, 2104 posts, RR: 0
Reply 9, posted (6 years 3 weeks 2 days 6 hours ago) and read 8754 times:



Quoting RoseFlyer (Reply 3):

Out of curiosity, who represents the engineers? Also, does seniority dictate advancement and pay like it does in other unions?



"Reality is wrong, dreams are for real." -Tupac
User currently offlinePianos101 From United States of America, joined Jan 2008, 365 posts, RR: 0
Reply 10, posted (6 years 3 weeks 2 days 6 hours ago) and read 8732 times:



Quoting Bok269 (Reply 9):
Out of curiosity, who represents the engineers?

SPEEA does in Seattle, and a few other places. In Philly (boeing directs) we're non-union.

Mods: there are already two threads going on discussing the IAM strike. If this post goes in the same direction, please delete it as I don't want to post the same thing in three separate threads....

Let's try to keep on topic: HOW the strike will affect the 87, NOT the strike itself...


User currently offlineHowSwedeitis From Sweden, joined Jul 2007, 586 posts, RR: 0
Reply 11, posted (6 years 3 weeks 2 days 6 hours ago) and read 8717 times:
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The company I work for, Toray Composites, is providing much of the carbon fiber for the 787. We're slow as it is; a strike would make things even worse. For the first time in our company's history we shut down for memorial day, and we will do the same for Labour Day. For a reference, last Christmas we only stopped for 18 hours, and we didn't on Thanksgiving due to the break neck pace Boeing wanted from us. Now, it's slowed way down, and our new machines that were just installed are mothballed. I really hope that the IAM and Boeing come to an agreement.  crossfingers 

-HSII



Heja Sverige!!
User currently offlineBoeingfever777 From United States of America, joined Jul 2009, 409 posts, RR: 53
Reply 12, posted (6 years 3 weeks 2 days 6 hours ago) and read 8691 times:



Quoting Pianos101 (Reply 1):
What about union bashing?? :-P

But none of that in this thread either, please. We have that going on in other threads...

Not really after the thoughts on bashing either the Unions, Boeing Management, or the delays of the 787. Mainly looking for thoughts on the effects of this and how it will.would impact the 787 and more delays.

Thanks for all comments pertaining to the topic on hand.



Faire du ciel le plus bel endroit de la terre.
User currently offlineF9Animal From United States of America, joined Dec 2004, 5055 posts, RR: 28
Reply 13, posted (6 years 3 weeks 2 days 6 hours ago) and read 8626 times:



Quoting Boeingfever777 (Reply 12):
Not really after the thoughts on bashing either the Unions, Boeing Management, or the delays of the 787. Mainly looking for thoughts on the effects of this and how it will.would impact the 787 and more delays.

Thanks for all comments pertaining to the topic on hand.

Hey Boeingfever777. Yes, the 787 will be delayed for sure if we strike. From what I have even been told by management, Boeing wants the strike. They are behind, and they are infamous for causing a strike to get caught up on parts that are missing. Galleys for example are a hot commodity. Even Airbus is struggling to meet the demands due to these delays on vendor parts.



I Am A Different Animal!!
User currently offlinePianos101 From United States of America, joined Jan 2008, 365 posts, RR: 0
Reply 14, posted (6 years 3 weeks 2 days 5 hours ago) and read 8545 times:



Quoting F9Animal (Reply 13):
Galleys for example are a hot commodity.

Yeah I heard that a few weeks ago too. I actually used to work in the galley engineering group there (the group that interfaces with the galley suppliers); never spoke to them to see what's going on, but i should....


User currently offlineF9Animal From United States of America, joined Dec 2004, 5055 posts, RR: 28
Reply 15, posted (6 years 3 weeks 2 days 4 hours ago) and read 8518 times:



Quoting Pianos101 (Reply 14):
Yeah I heard that a few weeks ago too. I actually used to work in the galley engineering group there (the group that interfaces with the galley suppliers); never spoke to them to see what's going on, but i should....

It is really bad. Not sure what the problem is, but it is really slowing up production at times. Even Airbus has been plagued by this problem. I read the article you are probably thinking of, and I will try to find it. I do not know how many galley producers there is around the world, but it sure would be a business to get started right away. Millions and millions could be made.



I Am A Different Animal!!
User currently offlinePianos101 From United States of America, joined Jan 2008, 365 posts, RR: 0
Reply 16, posted (6 years 3 weeks 2 days 3 hours ago) and read 8427 times:



Quoting F9Animal (Reply 15):
Even Airbus has been plagued by this problem. I read the article you are probably thinking of, and I will try to find it.

Yeah that was in the article, too. I think it was the top story in News Clips one morning a few weeks ago. Gotta check the archives...

There are two "main" suppliers: Sell and Driessen. Showa Aircraft is the sole supplier for the 47-400F (as on this plane it's SFE instead of BFE). I think their backup probably has something to do with our backup/backlog. Everything just gets later and later and boom you're in crisis mode (not counting the 87, that's a whole different beast)...
I'll try to get the inside scoop on this next week.  Wink


User currently offlineFlybyguy From United States of America, joined Jun 2004, 1801 posts, RR: 1
Reply 17, posted (6 years 3 weeks 2 days 2 hours ago) and read 8362 times:



Quoting RoseFlyer (Reply 3):
It really appears in my mind that with the latest contract that Boeing has really tried to give IAM everything they want.

I've heard this too. I guess the IAM is in a gotcha mode. They have Boeing to the wall and now its time apply the screws. Personally I think that they make a good case for Boeing to outsource with that kind of greed. Whatever the issue they have with pay or benefits... it won't help them much if they cripple the company and get laid off. True Boeing has a huge backlog, but that can vaporize with the uncertainty of oil prices. We are in unprecedented territory.

Quoting F9Animal (Reply 13):
Hey Boeingfever777. Yes, the 787 will be delayed for sure if we strike. From what I have even been told by management, Boeing wants the strike. They are behind, and they are infamous for causing a strike to get caught up on parts that are missing. Galleys for example are a hot commodity. Even Airbus is struggling to meet the demands due to these delays on vendor parts.

That's a little disconcerting considering that the airlines have so far been very patient and have yet to cancel orders en masse. I have the distinct feeling that if the 787 is delayed further Airbus will pick up the slack with airlines waiting until 2017 to get their first 787s from Boeing. I believe customers with later deliveries from Boeing will compromise with the larger A350 for the sake of getting ultra fuel efficient medium/long-range aircraft in their fleets in the near future. Airbus is most certainly learning from Boeing mistakes and will probably have their plane out much closer to schedule. Since Airbus and Boeing probably share many suppliers with Boeing and those suppliers will become comfortable with the new manufacturing processes surrounding next generation airliners. Certainly Airbus will have a bit of an advantage when it comes to certification as the 787 will have softened up the European and US aviation regulatory agencies a bit.



"Are you a pretender... or a thoroughbred?!" - Professor Matt Miller
User currently offlineF9Animal From United States of America, joined Dec 2004, 5055 posts, RR: 28
Reply 18, posted (6 years 3 weeks 1 day 23 hours ago) and read 8010 times:



Quoting Flybyguy (Reply 17):
I've heard this too. I guess the IAM is in a gotcha mode. They have Boeing to the wall and now its time apply the screws. Personally I think that they make a good case for Boeing to outsource with that kind of greed. Whatever the issue they have with pay or benefits... it won't help them much if they cripple the company and get laid off. True Boeing has a huge backlog, but that can vaporize with the uncertainty of oil prices. We are in unprecedented territory.

OMG!!! Boeing got exactly what they wanted from this. They sold it to the media, ran radio ads about it, and showed only a few pages of the $$$$$$ they offered. What they did not show you was the takeaways. The language of job security (which is why the union recommends a strike, and costs Boeing nothing out of their pockets to change the language, and stop their subcontracting ways). The huge jump in medical costs. No COLA for this last quarter, which is a record COLA by the way. And the killer of them all,,,,, if a represented employee dies, the pension goes back to Boeing, leaving the spouse or significant other with nothing from it.

Read into what you want to read into folks, but the highlights Boeing released only shows a short synopsis of the great raise Boeing offers. They did nothing to the non financial issues, which are detrimental to the contract. Do you just sign a contract because it offers more money? Come on now!!! You have to read the complete book, to see what the final results are..... Right? Do you just judge a book by its cover? The good stuff is in the front of the contract proposal. Try reading the contract from the back to the front instead. You will see that it is not all it is cut out to be.

We are fighting for our future, our children's future, and the future of their children. Trust me, Boeing acts like it bent over backwards to give us the best contract ever. They fail to tell you that all they did was take away from other areas, to boost the numbers in the financial part of the contract. Money is not everything.... How many of you nay sayers would accept this contract without reading the ENTIRE contract first? If all you see is the money as a need to sign, you guys are strongly mistaken.



I Am A Different Animal!!
User currently offlineRheinbote From Germany, joined May 2006, 1968 posts, RR: 52
Reply 19, posted (6 years 3 weeks 1 day 22 hours ago) and read 7735 times:

A strike would probably have an impact on the completion of flight test aircraft LN1 to LN6, which could further delay certification and first delivery. Whatever, the September 2009 certification date was always unlikely to work out as planned, even without a strike.
A strike at Boeing may also impair ongoing 787-8 change engineering and 787-9 development, although I'd wager that the latter is on the backburner until the prerequisite test data becomes available from 787-8 ground and flight testing.

My optimistic projection is first flight December 2008 the earliest, certification end of 2009 the earliest, and EIS well into 2010.

Donning my fire-proof suit right now...  duck 


User currently onlineAsiaflyer From Singapore, joined May 2007, 1136 posts, RR: 0
Reply 20, posted (6 years 3 weeks 1 day 22 hours ago) and read 7617 times:

According to the article in Flightglobal, Boeing says the strike will cause a day-to-day delay for the 787.
I hope it doesn't get worse than that for Boeing.

http://www.flightglobal.com/articles...contract-begin-strike-after-3.html



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User currently offlineAlessandro From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 21, posted (6 years 3 weeks 1 day 11 hours ago) and read 4991 times:



Quoting Pianos101 (Reply 1):
other threads...

Back on topic: I read somewhere that even a one week strike will delay first flight into next year. Don't see how that's true, but I don't really know how that works anyway. I also heard that Boeing will be off the hook for (most of) the late payments to airlines. There must be a clause in the contract that says that if a labor strike occurs, all bets are off... Will be interesting to see how that part of this whole mess plays out...

Payment is one thing, but more important the reputation of the manufacturer is more important. I hope the B787 makes it maiden flight soon, over a year since it was showed off
makes it more and more remind me of the B2707.


User currently offlineEBJ1248650 From United States of America, joined Jun 2005, 1932 posts, RR: 1
Reply 22, posted (6 years 3 weeks 1 day 11 hours ago) and read 4885 times:



Quoting F9Animal (Reply 13):
Yes, the 787 will be delayed for sure if we strike. From what I have even been told by management, Boeing wants the strike.

Don't know that that's true but the thought crossed my mind and you answered the question. In essence, the strike could save Boeing a ton of money. Now the obvious question: Did Boeing coordinate all of this with the union(s) to bail themselves out of the bad situation they're in with the airlines? Yes, I know, neither the unions or Boeing would admit to that ... but that doesn't put the question to rest, does it?



Dare to dream; dream big!
User currently offlineRoseFlyer From United States of America, joined Feb 2004, 9643 posts, RR: 52
Reply 23, posted (6 years 3 weeks 1 day 11 hours ago) and read 4829 times:



Quoting Bok269 (Reply 9):
Out of curiosity, who represents the engineers? Also, does seniority dictate advancement and pay like it does in other unions?

SPEEA is the engineering union at Boeing. Wages and advancement are not strictly defined as in other unions. The union requires that each job clasification receive an average of a 4% raise. However each raise per person is specific to performance so someone can get a raise as low as 1%.

Advancement is again based on performance, but there are 6 different levels of engineers. There are general guidelines of how you move up and a time frame. In general though, engineers continuously develop their own skills. A more senior engineer is expected to get more work done that is more complex in nature.



If you have never designed an airplane part before, let the real designers do the work!
User currently offlineAirframeAS From United States of America, joined Feb 2004, 14150 posts, RR: 24
Reply 24, posted (6 years 3 weeks 1 day 11 hours ago) and read 4812 times:



Quoting BoeingFever777 (Thread starter):
Boeing Strike = More 787 Delays?

Geez! I really hope not! I want to see this aircraft flying real soon! Dang unions!  no 



A Safe Flight Begins With Quality Maintenance On The Ground.
25 F9Animal : I know that sounds crazy, but certainly not far fetched. I have heard tons of talk about Boeing being infamous for doing things like this, and it is
26 Bennett123 : If there are further delays, this can only help Airbus. The longer it takes to get the B787 on stream, the shorter the interval before the A350 arrive
27 Stitch : On the plus side, the 787 was built out of more then wood and could actually move. On the subtraction side, the 2707 was a heck of a lot better-looki
28 Ncfc99 : I may be asking a realy dumb question, but how can a strike save boeing alot of money? I can understand a contrct having no penalties for strike acti
29 474218 : I know the IAM would really like to stick to Boeing and get everything they can in with this contract. However, in the long run it could turn against
30 AirframeAS : So the real losers are the workers, not Boeing...if I am understanding you correctly?
31 474218 : All you have to is "do the math".
32 Stitch : Boeing might also possibly be able to use the strike as an excuse to explain additional program delays. For example, if the strike pushed the test pr
33 A10WARTHOG : That is not totally true anymore. I believe many airlines will not allow salary people to work on their plane during strike. They will wait until IAM
34 Moo : I thought the Union covered wages during a Union recommended strike action?
35 Ncfc99 : Thanks for the reply, I understand what you are saying, but surey loss of revenue will eventualy cost more, no revenue coming in, no wages to pay, bu
36 Scbriml : Those clauses might absolve Boeing of responsibility for additional delays, but they can't cover the 18-30 month of delays already "in place", since
37 SATX : I bought my first tickets to the Boeing plant tour last week for a visit this weekend and now I'm wondering if there will even be a tour? I live in th
38 Post contains links Luv2cattlecall : Nice little Wiki article on Force Majeure...the clause that helps companies protect themselves during a strike. Not sure how it works in the airline
39 Moo : The key part of 'force majeure' is beyond the control of the parties - I would be extremely surprised if strike action by your own staff that you are
40 F9Animal : The Union covers a portion of the wages during a strike. Might I add, a very small portion of it. $150 per week. WAAAZZZUPPP Buddy??? LOL! Long time
41 AirframeAS : From what I understand: Nope. Not even one cent. Once a strike happens, you're on your own until the strike is over. Hey!!!! It is good to see ya aga
42 Post contains links BoeingFever777 : Ahead of a potential strike, Boeing 787 schedule tightens with assembly completion slip Hope it works out for Boeing and their machinists. We need to
43 Cloudy : IIRC a strike is legally 'force majeur' due to precedent.
44 474218 : Then why does the union worry about people crossing the picket lines and returning to work? .
45 Luv2cattlecall : I wondered that too, but re-read A10WARTHOG's post...he stated that the airline will not allow salary people to work the plane. The way I understood
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