Rleiro From Venezuela, joined Jan 2006, 490 posts, RR: 7 Posted (4 years 8 months 3 weeks 12 hours ago) and read 21972 times:
According to Organizacion de Rescate Humboldt a Boeing 737-200 registered as YV102T (ex Conviasa) crashed 30 Km from Lacatunga Airport. The airplane departed from CCS and it was operating a ferry flight in which only the crew (pilot and copilot) were onboard. Conviasa dropped the use of 737-200s, and this one was being delivered to its new operator.
NA From Germany, joined Dec 1999, 9599 posts, RR: 10 Reply 4, posted (4 years 8 months 3 weeks 10 hours ago) and read 21660 times:
Quoting SOBHI51 (Reply 2): Those 737-200 are gettinng old.
They are not getting old, they are old, and the majority operated by dubious airlines.
This marks the 106th recorded writeoff of a 737-200, to my knowledge an unrivalled, sad record among any airliner type currently operated.
SPREE34 From United States of America, joined Jun 2004, 2090 posts, RR: 10 Reply 6, posted (4 years 8 months 3 weeks 10 hours ago) and read 21412 times:
Great.
Without a single shred of verifiable data or information from the incident, the -200 is now some sort of flying trash heap waiting to fall from the sky at any moment.
Quoting NA (Reply 1): Another one. The third 737-200 crash in a week.
Quoting NA (Reply 1): 30-year-old ex-Frontier/ex-UA aircraft.
Quoting SOBHI51 (Reply 2): Those 737-200 are gettinng old.
Quoting NA (Reply 4): They are not getting old, they are old, and the majority operated by dubious airlines.
This marks the 106th recorded writeoff of a 737-200, to my knowledge an unrivalled, sad record among any airliner type currently operated.
Considering it's sales are unrivaled............
I don't understand everything I don't know about this.
727LOVER From United States of America, joined Oct 2001, 5713 posts, RR: 20 Reply 8, posted (4 years 8 months 3 weeks 9 hours ago) and read 21260 times:
Quoting SPREE34 (Reply 6): Considering it's sales are unrivaled............
There were more 727-200 built than 737-200
Quoting NA (Reply 1): The third 737-200 crash in a week.
Please forgive my ignorance. What were the other two? I only know of the Sanair crash, and AF 747 skidding off runway at YUL.
Ikramerica From United States of America, joined May 2005, 21025 posts, RR: 60 Reply 9, posted (4 years 8 months 3 weeks 9 hours ago) and read 21258 times:
Quoting SPREE34 (Reply 6): Without a single shred of verifiable data or information from the incident, the -200 is now some sort of flying trash heap waiting to fall from the sky at any moment.
The reputation of aircraft does deteriorate over time because the planes themselves deteriorate, and the only people flying them after a long period of time are companies that can't afford anything newer and have spotty reputations and practices.
The 732 is starting to crash a lot because those not retired or scrapped are being shuffled off to the dregs of the aviation world...
Of all the things to worry about... the Wookie has no pants.
SIBILLE From Belgium, joined Jun 2005, 450 posts, RR: 3 Reply 10, posted (4 years 8 months 3 weeks 9 hours ago) and read 21055 times:
Quoting 727LOVER (Reply 9): Please forgive my ignorance. What were the other two? I only know of the Sanair crash, and AF 747 skidding off runway at YUL.
732 crash in Kyrgistan + 732 running of runway in Indonesia.
NA From Germany, joined Dec 1999, 9599 posts, RR: 10 Reply 11, posted (4 years 8 months 3 weeks 9 hours ago) and read 20984 times:
Quoting SPREE34 (Reply 6): Considering it's sales are unrivaled............
Unrivalled? 1114 were produced, and almost 1 in 10 have been lost in crashes and other accidents. And in the figure of 106 losses not even every landing accident with damage making the particular farme unworthy to repair is reported!
I´m only mentioning facts when I write that the 732 has the worst crash-recod, actually by far the worst, of all airliners in widespread use today.
No reason to get aggressive. I don´t hate the 732, even think its a cool-looking plane. But its time for final retirement for most of those still flying. That hundreds of newer 737 types will be sent to the deserts in the very near future might help. The 732 is now what the 707 was 10 years ago, past its time.
Quoting 727LOVER (Reply 9): Please forgive my ignorance. What were the other two? I only know of the Sanair crash, and AF 747 skidding off runway at YUL.
1. 24.8. Itek Air 737-219 EX-009, crash near Bishkek with 68 victims.
2. 27.8. Sriwijaya 737-2H6 PK-CJG crashlanding
3. 31.8. Conviasa 737-291 crash near Quito
Makes three 732 writeoffs in one week.
Quoting Ikramerica (Reply 10): The 732 is starting to crash a lot because those not retired or scrapped are being shuffled off to the dregs of the aviation world...
That is not only the 732's fate. It never had a very good safety record, even when still built. When production ceased, there were already 35 frames lost. So it is not "starting to crash" now, although even if the numbers are dwindling, the crashes are rising due to age and lack of maintenance and other reasons. 3 or 4 are lost each year.
Teneriffe77 From United States of America, joined Jul 2006, 423 posts, RR: 0 Reply 13, posted (4 years 8 months 3 weeks 8 hours ago) and read 20884 times:
This crash could easily be a controlled flight into terrain one as Quito is surrounded by mountains and if the crew were unfamiliar with the terrain descended prematurely. This type of accident can happen to any plane. I fail to see any connection between this crash and the previous 2 ones besides the type involved.
Ikramerica From United States of America, joined May 2005, 21025 posts, RR: 60 Reply 14, posted (4 years 8 months 3 weeks 8 hours ago) and read 20761 times:
Quoting NA (Reply 13): That is not only the 732's fate. It never had a very good safety record, even when still built. When production ceased, there were already 35 frames lost.
True, but from the era this plane comes from, that is not overly high.
We have become spoiled (luckily) in this era that all newer planes are so darn safe, but they just weren't back then. For the crashes that were mechanical, there were corrective measures put into place, ones that should make the same type of crash unlikely today even with the same model aircraft. Combined with less radar (or no radar) back then, policies that allowed for flying in dangerous weather we in the west no longer permit, etc., it also skews the numbers.
As has been pointed out, top tier airlines had flown the 732 for years in the 90s without a disproportionate number of crashes. Over the last 15 years, 732 crashes have all come from spotty carriers. And despite the ubiquity of the 737-200 series in the USA, only 5 accidents in 35+ years of USA based carriers lead to fatalities. At least from the information I have.
Of all the things to worry about... the Wookie has no pants.
Gonzalo From Chile, joined Aug 2005, 1665 posts, RR: 0 Reply 15, posted (4 years 8 months 3 weeks 8 hours ago) and read 20652 times:
Hi everybody, sad news again, let's hope the best for the crew.
About the 732, i like it, flew many times in the noisy "chanchos" ( pigs ), and like any other aircraft, could last forever if you take care of it ( how many DC-3 are flying today after 70 years ? )... and if you don't put the plane in a CFIT...
However you always can have some details in the design, there are aircrafts more "easy to handle" against other models, but that can be a subjective matter, my two cents here : like in the vast majority of the 106 losses in the 732 history ( or in the aviation history ), it was not the aircraft's fault. Let's wait and see...
Pliersinsight From United States of America, joined May 2008, 446 posts, RR: 0 Reply 17, posted (4 years 8 months 3 weeks 7 hours ago) and read 20472 times:
Quoting NA (Reply 12): But its time for final retirement for most of those still flying.
Quoting NA (Reply 12): Quoting Ikramerica (Reply 10):
The 732 is starting to crash a lot because those not retired or scrapped are being shuffled off to the dregs of the aviation world...
After reading the above posts, the most obvious caveat that should have been included appears below:
Quoting Gonzalo (Reply 17): and like any other aircraft, could last forever if you take care of it (
How many of these dubious airlines maintain their 200s, let alone if they had brand spankin' new 800s......hose breaks near a fitting, don't replace it, cut the end, stretch the hose, crimp the fitting back on that your pried off the broken end....good as new....NOT!
Let's face it, what makes an airplane fly? Is it wings, lift, a competent crew, thrust, a bunch of science? Nope, money is what makes airplanes fly, and not spending it on mx is what makes them, aside from human errors, not fly.
UltimateDelta From United States of America, joined Sep 2007, 1993 posts, RR: 6 Reply 18, posted (4 years 8 months 3 weeks 7 hours ago) and read 20463 times:
Quoting Gonzalo (Reply 17): how many DC-3 are flying today after 70 years ?
OK, I know your question was somewhat rhetorical, but if you really wanted to know, the number is 182.
WildcatYXU From Canada, joined May 2006, 2432 posts, RR: 6 Reply 19, posted (4 years 8 months 3 weeks 7 hours ago) and read 20463 times:
Quoting Gonzalo (Reply 17): how many DC-3 are flying today after 70 years ?
Sorry, you can't compare the two. The DC3 is not pressurized, so it doesn't have cycle limits. The DC3 can fly forever, the 737 can't. No modern pressurized airliner can.
727LOVER From United States of America, joined Oct 2001, 5713 posts, RR: 20 Reply 20, posted (4 years 8 months 3 weeks 7 hours ago) and read 20423 times:
Quoting Ikramerica (Reply 9): and the only people flying them after a long period of time are companies that can't afford anything newer
Ever been to MSP or DTW?
By the way, the grin does not infer that this situation is funny.
DUALRATED From United States of America, joined May 2008, 1001 posts, RR: 0 Reply 21, posted (4 years 8 months 3 weeks 7 hours ago) and read 20342 times:
The 732 is starting to crash a lot because those not retired or scrapped are being shuffled off to the dregs of the aviation world... [/quote]
AGREED!
Quoting NA (Reply 12): I´m only mentioning facts when I write that the 732 has the worst crash-recod, actually by far the worst, of all airliners in widespread use today.
Hmm can't seem to find the numbers to justify the "by far the worst" statement. the DC-9 seems to be close for example. And even if it were true the 737 series is the most popular airliner in the world...so it would make sense if the number was high especially after going to some shady operators latter in the A/C's life
FalconBird From United States of America, joined May 2007, 1262 posts, RR: 1 Reply 22, posted (4 years 8 months 3 weeks 7 hours ago) and read 20314 times:
Couple of airlines still flying the 732's in the USA.
NA From Germany, joined Dec 1999, 9599 posts, RR: 10 Reply 23, posted (4 years 8 months 3 weeks 7 hours ago) and read 20222 times:
Quoting DUALRATED (Reply 23): And even if it were true the 737 series is the most popular airliner in the world
Were not talking about the 737 in general. Everyone knows the later versions built in far higher numbers do much better.
Read again what I wrote: Only 1114 737-200 were built, and 1 in 10 of them LOST, 1 in 10! If thats not a bad record, show me which type you think should feature last among common airliners of our time?
Unless anyone proofs me wrong, I´ll keep saying this again and again, always when yet another one falls from the sky: the 737-200 has the worst record of all airliners in widespread use today (ok, the 707 record is even worse, but there are only 1 or 2 still flying pax, so it doesn´t count anymore).
WILCO737 From Greenland, joined Jun 2004, 8473 posts, RR: 78 Reply 24, posted (4 years 8 months 3 weeks 7 hours ago) and read 20873 times:
AIRLINERS.NET CREW HEAD MODERATOR
Does anybody have any news about the pilots? I read here about how old the 732 was and how bad its record is.
But shouldn't we more care about the pilots, the human beings who might be dead?
I hope they are ok
WILCO737 (MD11F)
It it's not Boeing, I am not going.
25 A342: Since when is pressurization the only factor contributing to fatigue? And an aircraft also has wings, which also suffer from fatigue (the C-130 comes
26 TDubJFK: I'd be curious as to the overall ratio of A320/A319 family crashes. Seems to me like there have been an awful lot of them (starting with the spectacu
27 Airportmanager: Getting back to the original topic, the AIRPLANE that crashed in Ecuador..... How the heck can they know. The plane was found 1 hour ago....... FROM T
28 FlyingAY: Airsafe.com lists 8 (eight) fatal accidents for the whole A320 family. Considering the fact that there have been more than 3500 built, you can actual
29 BeechNut: There's nothing inherently wrong with the 737-200. The big issue is that now, there are no longer any mainline carriers flying them. They have now jus
30 Debonair: Any idea who was going to take over the B732?! I can just think of AeroGal or ICARO...
31 SOBHI51: I said that the 737-200 are getting old and that's a fact or are you going to challenge that?
32 Irish251: Your use of the term "falls from the sky" is straight out of the media lexicon and suggests that aircraft do literally just fall out of the sky. I wo
33 Airportmanager: We dont know this as of yet and bare in mind, MANY airlines have lately gone to SELT for C-Checks and theyre going either back to the same airline...
34 Sbworcs: " target=_blank>http://www.airsafe.com/events/models...d.htm At least 6 of those listed for the 737-100/200 appear to have been as a direct result of
35 RussianJet: Well, that is the link. Did anyone suggest a different one??
36 JBirdAV8r: You're absolutely right, but I have tried to argue that point in several previous threads, and the "experts" on A.net just keep on going...
37 FlyingAY: I believe all the airsafe.com statistics for all plane types include hijackings, pilot errors, etc. reasons that are not directly related to the airp
38 NA: Of cause the majority of 732 losses cannot be attributed to inherent faults. But thats the case of any other type since the early days of jet travel.
39 Gonzalo: Hi Wildcat, i'm not comparing the two models directly, i choose the DC-3 only for the age they have, my point is, if you take care of your aircraft,
40 Airportmanager: Perhaps a new topic should be made called WHY 737-200's fall, and Why airbus dont? hahahaha, Or something like that cause I think were diverting about
41 Summa767: Airportmanager, you do well in bringing this thread back to its course. Thanks your latest info. I guess it will be a while before we know exactly wha
42 Upcfordcruiser: " target=_blank>http://www.airsafe.com/events/models...d.htm LOL I was wondering how long it would take someone to compare the entire family of A320'
43 Airportmanager: Now thats a confusing thing, no pictures or information of this plane, I guess well have to wait and see pictures:S Maybe it was resent conversion? L
44 Alessandro: All 100-series gone, how many 200-series still around?
45 DUALRATED: Yes another opportunity to try and smear the reputation of the best and popular airliner in the world!! Good point , I'm sure you would find that the
46 Gonzalo: Sad news... R.I.P. About the cargo config, probably a recent conversion required for the new operator, like other said, Conviasa don't have airplanes
47 Bennett123: http://aviation-safety.net/database/record.php?id=20080830-0 This may be of interest.
48 Bennett123: The aircraft is not new, but there again there are many just as old. Furthermore, there is no record of any previous crash for Conviasa, and most of i
49 Legoguy: Sad news about the pilots and mechanics not surviving. From the link above, it states the aircraft was 'stored for a while' in Caracas.
50 Bennett123: http://www.airfleets.net/flottecie/ConViasa-destroyed-b737.htm Given that it only entered service with them on 01/04/2007 , It could not have been in
51 Blackbird1331: You would think the buyer would have the plane inspected before handing over the check. Anyone have a guess as to how much the purchase price is for a
52 DukeofDashes: I think JANET will be dissapointed you forgot about her:
53 Airportmanager: Gonzalo, the terrain in the vicinity is a bit tough. Mountains all around, very high elevations perpendicular to the RWY or surrounding it. The proce
54 LVZXV: 310-320 still going strong, excluding combis and freighters (another 60-80 approx.). It's doing better than any other aircraft of its era. Saludos, Z
55 Rleiro: The media seems to be confusing about the purpose of the flight. Some sources said that it was a cargo flight, while others assure that it was a ferry
56 Gonzalo: Thanks for the link and the description of the area. With this info it's almost clear one contributing factor to the crash was a NAV issue ( i'm not
57 Hmmmm...: The 737 was an impromptu design with a lot of compromises, rushed to market for a niche customer. As such, it was not Boeing's most thoughtfully devel
58 Birdbrainz: I agree. My father has over 10000 hrs in the 737-200, along with the 727, and a lot of military aircraft. He always marveled how easy it was to fly.
59 Jetfuel: Yes they are getting OLD. What many forget is that with age comes some very expensive maintenance. And MANY of these old birds are being operated by o
60 Teneriffe77: Quoting Hmmmm... (reply 60): Sure Boeing sold a lot of 737s. Ford sold a lot of Pintos. AMC sold a lot of Gremlins. And MD did pretty well with the DC
61 777jaah: Agree. May their souls rest in peace. Please, keep this thread the way it should go. Let us all know all details about the crash, not statistics, oth
62 N53614: Old planes are not at all unsafe, so long as it is maintained properly and all ADs are complied with.
63 WILCO737: R.I.P. to the mechanic and the pilots WILCO737 (MD11F)
64 Airportmanager: Exactly, I have made my own ASSUMPTIONS of what happened. I even dug up my dads old topographic maps!!! And started drawing conclusions with the char
65 WILCO737: " target=_blank>http://www.noticias24.com/actualidad...ments That looks pretty bad. Man, how I hate seeing such pictures. WILCO737 (MD11F)
66 FlyingAY: Give me a break guys. My point was not to "smear the reputation" of any airliner. Boeing 737 has been in production so much longer than the A320 that
67 JohnKrist: Thanks for all your excellent info and updates Airportmanager! May the crew rest in peace. I love the old 737's, good looking and a sound that that is
68 Rikkus67: ...there-in lies the problem with your statement. The -200 is NOT used "wide-spread"! BUT...you can certainly get a second, third, forth+ hand airfra
69 Ferengi80: And in Europe... http://www.airliners.net/photo/Europ...rter/Boeing-737-229-Adv/1384526/M/ http://www.airliners.net/photo/Europ...rter/Boeing-737-229
70 KC135TopBoom: The B-737-200s are no more likely to crash than other jets the same age. The DC-9 actually has had more crash events. But, to put this into contents,
71 Airportmanager: May we get back to the subject once again..... it would be best. Thank you. Now I wake up this morning to hear more things. They say there were a coup
72 UK_Dispatcher: You can still see the old United Airlines seat covers in the second pic.
73 RussianJet: How exactly is discussing the history, current usage of, and record of the type involved in this incident not relevant to the subject? Come on, this
74 Falstaff: Take a closer look at the list... The 737-100/200 is at the top of the Fatal Events Rate per one million flights, 33.53. When you put all the 737s to
75 Birdbrainz: Just wait until the A320NG has been in service 5-6 years, and the oldest 1st gen A320s are scooped up by small, obscure, inexperienced carriers all ov
76 MCOflyer: A couple of my best flights were on 732's. I'll miss those old JT8D's. May those pilots RIP and my prayers go to all families involved. Hunter
77 Alessandro: A319/A320/A312 vs B732, 19 vs 41 (if I counted right) hull losses during their 20 first years of operation, not flattering for the older plane.
78 HAWK21M: Age has nothing to do with safety.....Maintenance standards has...... regds MEL
79 LVZXV: Think about it: Both the A32S and the B732 have suffered on average one hull loss per year. Factor in the fact that the former has been around 20 yea
80 NEMA: I often wonder about this type of situation, does anyone have any inclination as to whether Boeing in this case for example, are happy at these agein
81 MIAMIx707: What airline was this one going to? Airportmanager said it wasn't for ICARO, so that only leaves Aerogal RIP to the crew :/ Not to take this thread in
82 Smeg: I was thinking exactly the same thing and you beat me to it! Boeing must worry about all the 732's still flying in many countries, because the majori
83 Francoflier: Tha aircraft apparently belonged to Atlantic airlines of Honduras, and had been leased to Conviasa. Apparently, the lease had terminated. I don't know
84 Rleiro: The airplane was leased to Conviasa by Atlantic Airlines. It was a dry leasing, hence why the airplane was YV-registered. Apparently, the airplane was
85 NA: It is quite odd that former UA 735s from 1991 are being scrapped, while former UA 732s from 1975 keep flying, or in this case, until crashing. Grounde
86 MIAMIx707: Actually looks like it was going to be delivered to Icaro, Icaro Express (that's according to skyliner.de) Didn't know Icaro had an express division.
87 Airportmanager: Once again, that information is false, the president of the airline has been on the news over 3 times stating this. The governor/mayor whatever, of L
88 Acheron: That won't stop the media from spreading said rumors as truths(given the nature of the airline, time of the year, etc), unfortunately, disrespecting
89 MIAMIx707: Don't you think it is convenient to deny the crashed plane was going to HIS airline? Not that I'm doubting what you've heard or anything of course, s
90 HAWK21M: Any preliminary report out yet? regds MEL.
91 Babybus: Sad but true. We should be thankful that fatalities (if any) are minimal in this latest incident. Maybe it's time now to ground this model.
92 Rleiro: Some news from CCS about the crash: - The 737-200 was owned by Air Atlantic (Honduras). The airplane was dry-leased to Conviasa, but after some emerge
93 RussianJet: Why would you ground the type just because some companies fail to maintain and or operate their fleet safely? (not necessarily prejudging the causes
94 NA: Actually its not "some companies" that fail to maintain their 732s properly. It appears a large part of 732 operators have no sufficient money, there
95 RussianJet: Err, that's exactly the point I was implying. Was there part of my post you didn't understand?
96 Airportmanager: Umm, Its simple, It was in the Media...... but it was a wrong statement by the people from SELT. You wanna know why there was a confusion!? Because t
97 MIAMIx707: I see. It could even be the plane was going to be stored/broken up? If it's true Conviasa crews refused to fly it before because it had had problems i
98 YVRLTN: They dont fly 735's because the larger CFM engines are not so good for gravel and unprepared strips like the 732 with the smaller JT8D's. Any the onl
99 Airportmanager: LAtest news now is they found the Voice recorder, they had only found the Data recorder on Sunday, but they found all the rest last night. There were
100 MIAMIx707: My bad yes the CL-44 was @ GYE not Latacunga, is it in one piece? full colors? How about at SELT, any 707s or any classics still in airline livery tha
101 Airportmanager: Well, we now have a pair of 727's, thats IT..... Both TAME, and nothing else. The other day I flew to SELT and I only saw that. Really gets boring, b
102 Leftcoaster: Ya they fly GCM - La Cieba charters now & then. I just saw one of the 732's take-off a few days ago. Apparantly these charters are notorious for bein
103 Viscount724: At least a dozen Canadian airlines have operated the 732, including 76 purchased new from Boeing and quite a few acquired from other carriers, since
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