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More 717s Available, Opportunity For AA?  
User currently offlineMoMan From United States of America, joined Aug 2004, 1054 posts, RR: 4
Posted (6 years 2 weeks 2 days 19 hours ago) and read 11524 times:

Now that YX is returning 16 717-200 aircraft to Boeing, this looks to be a great time for AA to finally pick up a 110 seat aircraft that they so badly need in their fleet.

Positives
-Smaller plane for many routes out of ORD/STL/DFW that need smaller aircraft but are stuck with MD-80s
-Capable aircraft efficient on shorter routes where it would most likely be used
-Ability to replace some of the MD-80s
-Lack of demand for aircraft should result in good lease rates from Boeing
-Boeing could structure the leases so they 717s get returned when the 737RS comes out and AA orders 200 of them

Negatives
-Addition of another fleet type to a company trying to slim down their fleet types
-A small fleet of aircraft to spread fixed costs

American should jump at this opportunity go pick up some newer, efficient aircraft that they badly need to right-size some routes. This would free MD-80/737 flying for higher-capacity routes and/or retirement (MD80).


AA Platinum Member - American Airlines Forever
47 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineAlaska737 From United States of America, joined Feb 2006, 1063 posts, RR: 5
Reply 1, posted (6 years 2 weeks 2 days 19 hours ago) and read 11514 times:

This is a pretty long shot...wait a really long shot

User currently offlineCkfred From United States of America, joined Apr 2001, 5238 posts, RR: 1
Reply 2, posted (6 years 2 weeks 2 days 18 hours ago) and read 11445 times:

If AA could get 50 planes, then it might be interested. Sixteen, however, is way too small of a narrowbody fleet.

One might argue that instead of freeing up MD-80s and 738s, it might also free up CRJs and ERJs. The RJs fly many routes that used to be handled, fully or in part, by the F100s.


User currently offlineDfwRevolution From United States of America, joined Jan 2010, 977 posts, RR: 51
Reply 3, posted (6 years 2 weeks 2 days 18 hours ago) and read 11388 times:



Quoting MoMan (Thread starter):
Now that YX is returning 16 717-200 aircraft to Boeing, this looks to be a great time for AA to finally pick up a 110 seat aircraft that they so badly need in their fleet.

I think we can definitively say that there is ZERO chance of this happening.

Quoting MoMan (Thread starter):

Negatives
-Addition of another fleet type to a company trying to slim down their fleet types
-A small fleet of aircraft to spread fixed costs

Which is exactly why it AA won't ever fly the 717 again. Those two blow the other 5 positive reasons you listed out of the water.

A third consideration is that the 717-200 will officially be a last-generation type once the C-Series and Mitsubishi projects enter service. That isn't that far down the road, and the 717-200 wasn't really competitive with the E-jets which debut just 6 years after the 717.


User currently offlineTranspac787 From United States of America, joined Jul 2007, 3208 posts, RR: 13
Reply 4, posted (6 years 2 weeks 2 days 18 hours ago) and read 11321 times:

Haven't both HA and FL been trying to find additional 717's??

User currently offlineNwarooster From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 1091 posts, RR: 3
Reply 5, posted (6 years 2 weeks 2 days 18 hours ago) and read 11268 times:
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Quoting Transpac787 (Reply 4):
Haven't both HA and FL been trying to find additional 717's??

AirTran is returning a 717 to Boeing which will be leased to Hawaiian.
American had quite a number of TWA 717s which it disposed of.  old 


User currently offlineDL767captain From United States of America, joined Mar 2007, 2539 posts, RR: 0
Reply 6, posted (6 years 2 weeks 2 days 17 hours ago) and read 11187 times:

I doubt it, AA keeps ordering 738s to replace the MD-80. Maybe if they needed a plane the size of the 717 after the MD-80s were retired, but i have a feeling AA would go with like the Cseries or something

User currently offlineLV From United States of America, joined Jun 2001, 2005 posts, RR: 0
Reply 7, posted (6 years 2 weeks 2 days 16 hours ago) and read 11043 times:

I think there are only very few niche route that AA could use the 717 on. And none of them are worth bringing in a new fleet type. The major route I could see it being an advantage is ORD-XNA or DFW-XNA.... but even Walmart doesn't generate enough traffic to make it worth the expense of just sending Eagle in.
I mean brining the 717 on would be like UA keeping the BAE146 for DEN-EGE.


User currently offlineBluewave 707 From United States of America, joined Jun 2001, 3152 posts, RR: 6
Reply 8, posted (6 years 2 weeks 2 days 16 hours ago) and read 10994 times:

HA could probably use the 712 more than AA. HA is leasing 4 ex-QF 712s, if go! tanks they will need more.


"The best use of your life will be to so live your life, that the use of your life will outlive your life" -- D Severn
User currently offlineOyKIE From Norway, joined Jan 2006, 2752 posts, RR: 4
Reply 9, posted (6 years 2 weeks 2 days 15 hours ago) and read 10919 times:



Quoting MoMan (Thread starter):
YX is returning 16 717-200 aircraft to Boeing,

I wonder if Boeing will have a hard time finding new homes for these planes and that they will be on the ground for some time.

I keep on dreaming about SAS replacing their MD-87 with this plane. However I know that is wishful thinking.



Dream no small dream; it lacks magic. Dream large, then go make that dream real - Donald Douglas
User currently offlineMIAspotter From Spain, joined Nov 2001, 2775 posts, RR: 24
Reply 10, posted (6 years 2 weeks 2 days 14 hours ago) and read 10860 times:



Quoting OyKIE (Reply 9):
I wonder if Boeing will have a hard time finding new homes for these planes and that they will be on the ground for some time.

Maybe Spanair could be interested in getting some of those 717s for AeBal or SpanairLink.

MIAspotter



I think, therefore I don´t fly Ryanair.
User currently offlineTSS From United States of America, joined Dec 2006, 3068 posts, RR: 5
Reply 11, posted (6 years 2 weeks 2 days 14 hours ago) and read 10778 times:

Quoting Ckfred (Reply 2):
If AA could get 50 planes, then it might be interested. Sixteen, however, is way too small of a narrowbody fleet.



Quoting Nwarooster (Reply 5):
American had quite a number of TWA 717s which it disposed of.   

AA wasn't interested in operating the 717s they inherited them from TWA, even back when (unless I'm much mistaken) the 717s were still available new from Boeing. I've often wondered why this was so since AA could have used the ex-TWA 717 mini-fleet as the starting point of a gradual replacement of MD-80s with a newer and more efficient version of the same type.

Nonetheless, AA didn't want the 717s it had then so I'm fairly certain they wouldn't want to add them now, either.

Edit- A quick look at the "Aircraft Data" section of this website reveals a probable reason why 717s never replaced AA's MD-82/83s: The passenger capacity of a 717-200 is about 40 fewer than an MD-80. Even the proposed but never built 717-300 would have offered a passenger capacity of around 20 fewer than an MD-82/83.

[Edited 2008-09-05 03:18:59]


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User currently offlineOyKIE From Norway, joined Jan 2006, 2752 posts, RR: 4
Reply 12, posted (6 years 2 weeks 2 days 12 hours ago) and read 10577 times:



Quoting MIAspotter (Reply 10):
Maybe Spanair could be interested in getting some of those 717s for AeBal or SpanairLink

It would be ideal for Spanair if they could announce that they will replace the MD-80 with 717. They are reducing capacity so even if they have less seats that might just make it even a better choice.

Quoting TSS (Reply 11):
Nonetheless, AA didn't want the 717s it had then so I'm fairly certain they wouldn't want to add them now, either.

IIRC they were not happy with the lease rate. Is that correct?

Quoting TSS (Reply 11):
Edit- A quick look at the "Aircraft Data" section of this website reveals a probable reason why 717s never replaced AA's MD-82/83s: The passenger capacity of a 717-200 is about 40 fewer than an MD-80. Even the proposed but never built 717-300 would have offered a passenger capacity of around 20 fewer than an MD-82/83

The 717-300 would offer a much better CASM than the 737-800, and with 20 seats less the yield would increase. The only problem with the 717-300 would be the lack of transcontinental range.



Dream no small dream; it lacks magic. Dream large, then go make that dream real - Donald Douglas
User currently offlineEMB170 From United States of America, joined Nov 2007, 648 posts, RR: 0
Reply 13, posted (6 years 2 weeks 2 days 12 hours ago) and read 10570 times:

I think it's been said on this board that AA wishes it *had* kept TWA's 717 fleet as it would have been a nice replacement for the F100s...the problem is/was that TW had some pretty high lease rates from Boeing due to their bad credit and Boeing wasn't going to budge on the payments to AA. Now planes are again available and the lease rates might be more competitive, but again, with only 16 planes free it doesn't give AA much to work with; the only possibility I could see would be to do what has been done with the MD80 fleet and keep all the aircraft at one hub (ex: keep them at ORD and have them do all the IND/CMH/CVG/DSM/MSP/DTW/STL/CLE/PIT runs).


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User currently offlineRidgid727 From United States of America, joined Jul 2008, 1131 posts, RR: 0
Reply 14, posted (6 years 2 weeks 2 days 11 hours ago) and read 10452 times:

Yesterday in our office, there was talk that Skywest was considering them.

User currently offlineWedgetail737 From United States of America, joined Aug 2003, 5910 posts, RR: 6
Reply 15, posted (6 years 2 weeks 2 days 11 hours ago) and read 10362 times:
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Maybe a new interisland airline startup in Hawaii could take up the Midwest Airlines 717's. That's just as a long shot as AA picking them up.

User currently offlineJJ8080 From Brazil, joined Aug 2008, 932 posts, RR: 0
Reply 16, posted (6 years 2 weeks 2 days 10 hours ago) and read 10244 times:

Don't think so. They had 717s from TWA and phased out. In addition, 16 a/c for a narrow-body fleet in the USA for and airline lika AA is not much. If they really wanted to go for a 100-110 seater on the fleet, they would go for E-195s or CRJ-900s.


100 146 319/20/21 332 722 732/3/4/5/G/W/8/H/9 742/3/4 752/3 762/3 772/W BE2 BET E75 CNJ CR2 D10 F27 F50 ER4 LRJ M11 M80
User currently offlineGr8SlvrFlt From United States of America, joined Jan 2002, 1606 posts, RR: 10
Reply 17, posted (6 years 2 weeks 2 days 10 hours ago) and read 10224 times:

If they go anywhere, it will be to AirTran. Even though AirTran just sold one, if the price is right, they can sell some 737s at a profit and replace them with 717s at a much lower lease rate.

User currently offlineBurnsie28 From United States of America, joined Aug 2004, 7546 posts, RR: 8
Reply 18, posted (6 years 2 weeks 2 days 10 hours ago) and read 10206 times:



Quoting Ridgid727 (Reply 14):
Yesterday in our office, there was talk that Skywest was considering them.

HAHAHA, so what they can start their own airline and get smoked like every other regional airline that has tried to start their own. They couldn't fly for anyone since those aircraft are too big and would violate everyones pilot contracts. Another I-Air?



"Some People Just Know How To Fly"- Best slogan ever, RIP NW 1926-2009
User currently offlineQQflyboy From United States of America, joined Oct 2003, 2282 posts, RR: 13
Reply 19, posted (6 years 2 weeks 2 days 10 hours ago) and read 10160 times:



Quoting OyKIE (Reply 12):
IIRC they were not happy with the lease rate. Is that correct?

That was primarily the reason. They may not have wanted to introduce another fleet type, but ultimately it came down to the lease rates. Since then Arpey has said several times AA needs a new 100 seat a/c. The 717 would have been a decent option, but with what's available now it's not the most efficient option. I also think the big issue is if/when AA brings on another 100 seat a/c, they want Eagle to operate it, not mainline.



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User currently offlineWedgetail737 From United States of America, joined Aug 2003, 5910 posts, RR: 6
Reply 20, posted (6 years 2 weeks 2 days 9 hours ago) and read 9616 times:
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Quoting Burnsie28 (Reply 18):
HAHAHA, so what they can start their own airline and get smoked like every other regional airline that has tried to start their own. They couldn't fly for anyone since those aircraft are too big and would violate everyones pilot contracts. Another I-Air?

Doesn't surprise me. Didn't Mesa Airlines want to buy some 733's at one time and start a formidable operation...back in the 1990's?


User currently offlineAAORY From United States of America, joined Aug 2008, 47 posts, RR: 0
Reply 21, posted (6 years 2 weeks 2 days 5 hours ago) and read 7793 times:

AA needs a 100 seater that can be flown at Eagle, not AA. That has exactly zero chance of happening, which as others have said, is the same chance that AA will pick up these 16 717s.


33 countries visited and counting...
User currently offline777STL From United States of America, joined Dec 2004, 3647 posts, RR: 3
Reply 22, posted (6 years 2 weeks 2 days 5 hours ago) and read 7707 times:



Quoting Gr8SlvrFlt (Reply 17):
If they go anywhere, it will be to AirTran. Even though AirTran just sold one, if the price is right, they can sell some 737s at a profit and replace them with 717s at a much lower lease rate.

No way. Airtran is trying to reduce capacity, not add it. That doesn't make much sense.



PHX based
User currently offlineCkfred From United States of America, joined Apr 2001, 5238 posts, RR: 1
Reply 23, posted (6 years 2 weeks 2 days 5 hours ago) and read 7638 times:



Quoting TSS (Reply 11):
AA wasn't interested in operating the 717s they inherited them from TWA, even back when (unless I'm much mistaken) the 717s were still available new from Boeing. I've often wondered why this was so since AA could have used the ex-TWA 717 mini-fleet as the starting point of a gradual replacement of MD-80s with a newer and more efficient version of the same type.

Nonetheless, AA didn't want the 717s it had then so I'm fairly certain they wouldn't want to add them now, either.

Edit- A quick look at the "Aircraft Data" section of this website reveals a probable reason why 717s never replaced AA's MD-82/83s: The passenger capacity of a 717-200 is about 40 fewer than an MD-80. Even the proposed but never built 717-300 would have offered a passenger capacity of around 20 fewer than an MD-82/83.

When AA first took control of TWA, I saw an interview Boeing's CEO, Phil Condit, in which he said AA would continue to take deliveries of the 717s that TWA ordered. In fact, Boeing made some 717 deliveries in either full AA colors or the TWA/AA transition scheme. I don't remember which.

As others have said, the lease rates were high, due to TWA's poor credit, and Boeing wouldn't budge. The F100s were fully paid, so the 717s went back. A friend of mine who flies for AA says that if managment knew in late 2001 what it learned by mid 2003, that the F100s would become a maintenance headache due to Fokker's going out of business (i.e., AA having to make its own spare parts), it would have kept the 717s and dumped the F100s.


User currently offlineAvConsultant From United States of America, joined Feb 2006, 1360 posts, RR: 3
Reply 24, posted (6 years 2 weeks 2 days 4 hours ago) and read 7108 times:

Come on guys, the last thing AA wants to do is add a new fleet type; especially a narow body fleet type no longer in production.

Quoting OyKIE (Reply 9):
I keep on dreaming about SAS replacing their MD-87 with this plane. However I know that is wishful thinking.

I thought the 737-600 was the replacement for the MD-87.


25 ATLflyer323 : Ok now I know that this is a far off dream but does anyone think that Olympic could try and pick up the 16 717's? They operated them in the past, and
26 Flyf15 : What in the world would a 100 seater be doing at a regional like Eagle? Thats a mainline plane by every definition of the world and it shouldn't be c
27 Cubsrule : Why not?
28 Flyf15 : Well if they can be contracted out, why not just contract everything out? Heck, let Eagle have the 777s.
29 Ridgid727 : Not so fast to condemn this. There are 2 foreign airlines at this time attempting to start feed from a regional into some very major coastal cities,
30 TN757Flyer : It doesn't seem likely any "new" carrier would pick up Midwest's cast off 717's, given it's such a small number of aircraft. To add another aircraft t
31 Phelpsie87 : Yes, it COULD work...but is unlikely. Why? Well, for one, no mention of ANYTHING even remotely related to Midwest or 717's has been talked about. Tru
32 Ridgid727 : [quote=Phelpsie87,reply=31]It seems you work for an airline, you should know how "office talk" is nothing more than some misinterpretation, or someone
33 Cubsrule : Why not? Why does AA have to do the flying? What's this really about?
34 TUSAA : AA has told the APA/AA pilots union many times before that their welcome to fly any new 100 seater that AMR aquires in the future, they just have to
35 Phelpsie87 : Your right...I did know about that.
36 Cubsrule : ...which is precisely why I'm arguing that the certificate-holder that operates the flights is basically irrelevant.
37 KochamLOT : I think its too bad that AA didnt purchase the 717s earlier before Boeing stopped making them. Its a shame they stopped making them and that the whole
38 KochamLOT : wait....why didnt AA keep the 717s that TWA ordered knowing that the future of the MD80s would soon expire? Where did they end up going?...
39 Cubsrule : FL and JQ
40 DfwRevolution : The 717 isn't a replacement for the MD-80, it doesn't have enough range and payload for the job. AA had already selected the 737-800 to replace the M
41 Okie : Bingo Along with the exorbitant lease rates. The 717 just was not going to fit in with AA's down sizing of the STL hub. When AA had an out on the lea
42 AAORY : They would be at Eagle because AA can't make money with a 100 seater with mainline costs. It's a moot point since obviously the APA will never agree
43 JetJeanes : There going to have to go with one of the new rjs to get close to 100 pax. Airtrans got a lot of the twa 717,s but they are ageing out and the 37 is f
44 DfwRevolution : 1. It's no secret that Boeing's long-term plan is to consolidate their entire product line into just three families. The strategic plan laid out in 1
45 Cubsrule : How much lower were Fokker pilot pay rates than S80 rates?
46 Nwarooster : American Airline pilots did not like the Fokker F-100 as it did not have leading edge slats. As a result, it jad a higer take off and landing speed th
47 KochamLOT : what replaced the Fokker100s? On the issue of range and payload, there are routes that AA flies that maybe cant fill the md80s. And with the 737s, th
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