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Boeing Strike Is Official  
User currently offlineClickhappy From United States of America, joined Sep 2001, 9668 posts, RR: 68
Posted (6 years 3 months 3 weeks 2 days ago) and read 14385 times:
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at 12:01 Saturday. The same day unemployment hit a 5-year high in Washington state.

206 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineRoseflyer From United States of America, joined Feb 2004, 9828 posts, RR: 52
Reply 1, posted (6 years 3 months 3 weeks 2 days ago) and read 14391 times:

IAM officially told members to go on strike at 12:01am tonight. The news is hitting hard within the company. IAM leadership is saying that Boeing walked out of the negotiations.

www.iam751.org

I for one do not look forward to coming into work on Monday. Strikes are hard on everybody. No one ever wins in a strike. The IAM has their reasons which they list on their website. Boeing has been earning good profits since the last contract and IAM wants more of it. They want the benefits, retirement, salary, cost of living, employee incentive program and everything else that the company has slowly taken away or not granted. In the end, there will probably be fewer and fewer IAM jobs as Boeing sells off parts of the company to outside companies that can do the work at a lower cost. Engineering is subverted when major design is sent out like on the 787. IAM is subverted when a shop or division is closed and the work is outsourced to make a specific fastener or bracket. Lots of small shops are making parts for Boeing. It's risky, but the only way to make a profit. Boeing's goal is profit, since it is a for profit company afterall.

Hopefully no one suffers too bad, but I'm sure many will. Even with this, I'm a die hard Boeing fan.

[Edited 2008-09-05 16:07:29]


If you have never designed an airplane part before, let the real designers do the work!
User currently offlineUnited787 From United States of America, joined May 2005, 2780 posts, RR: 2
Reply 2, posted (6 years 3 months 3 weeks 2 days ago) and read 14318 times:

I am sorry to hear this.

I agree that no one wins in these situations...

Maybe the only bright light is that this may give some of the 787 suppliers a chance to catch up...will the 787 ever fly  Sad


User currently offlineClickhappy From United States of America, joined Sep 2001, 9668 posts, RR: 68
Reply 3, posted (6 years 3 months 3 weeks 2 days ago) and read 14276 times:
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787 suppliers are caught up. Personally I can't wait for Boeing to leave Seattle. Hopefully it will be someplace warmer, as I will be going with them Big grin

User currently offlineAirframeAS From United States of America, joined Feb 2004, 14150 posts, RR: 24
Reply 4, posted (6 years 3 months 3 weeks 2 days ago) and read 14148 times:

I can smell the layoffs coming in the near future..... Not good.  no 


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User currently offlineStitch From United States of America, joined Jul 2005, 31437 posts, RR: 85
Reply 5, posted (6 years 3 months 3 weeks 1 day 21 hours ago) and read 13862 times:
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Quoting AirframeAS (Reply 4):
I can smell the layoffs coming in the near future..... Not good.  no 

Well the harsh reality is every plane an airline cancels is one less Boeing needs machinists to build...  Sad


User currently offlineTylerDurden From United States of America, joined May 2008, 852 posts, RR: 0
Reply 6, posted (6 years 3 months 3 weeks 1 day 21 hours ago) and read 13793 times:



Quoting Stitch (Reply 5):
Well the harsh reality is every plane an airline cancels is one less Boeing needs machinists to build...

Is there any history that airlines have canceled because of a labor strike?
I'd be curious to see a source.....well...other than Boeing itself.


User currently offlineClickhappy From United States of America, joined Sep 2001, 9668 posts, RR: 68
Reply 7, posted (6 years 3 months 3 weeks 1 day 21 hours ago) and read 13754 times:
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Cancel? And do what? Drive down the street to the Airbus dealership and take home a couple of 777-300ERs? Cancel your 2010 787 slots for a 2014 A350 order?

User currently offlineKhobar From United States of America, joined Mar 2006, 2379 posts, RR: 4
Reply 8, posted (6 years 3 months 3 weeks 1 day 21 hours ago) and read 13689 times:

Clearly demonstrates that no amount of incentive justified Boeing's decision to work with IAM workers.

Quoting Clickhappy (Reply 7):
Cancel? And do what? Drive down the street to the Airbus dealership and take home a couple of 777-300ERs? Cancel your 2010 787 slots for a 2014 A350 order?

Those 2010 slots are actually 2011, no...2012, no...2013, no...

with all the delays piling on.

And not all airlines have 2010 slots anyway, right? There is some overlap with the hopeful delivery of the A350's, so I'd say there's a real risk of some of the outer fringe deliveries being converted.

Maybe.


User currently offlineWestWing From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 2135 posts, RR: 7
Reply 9, posted (6 years 3 months 3 weeks 1 day 20 hours ago) and read 13610 times:

The IAM website states that the company (Boeing) "bargained illegally". Does anyone know what action of Boeing was (allegedly) illegal ? Which law was violated? Thanks.


The best time to plant a tree is 40 years ago. The second best time is today.
User currently offlineF9Animal From United States of America, joined Dec 2004, 5127 posts, RR: 28
Reply 10, posted (6 years 3 months 3 weeks 1 day 20 hours ago) and read 13541 times:

Quoting WestWing (Reply 9):
The IAM website states that the company (Boeing) "bargained illegally". Does anyone know what action of Boeing was (allegedly) illegal ? Which law was violated? Thanks.

Alright.... Lots of good rumors flying around..... Have an open mind about this. Sure, some will throw things at me for saying this...... BOEING WANTED THE STRIKE!!!!!!???????

Think about it. Most airlines that have ordered Boeing aircraft have signed contracts to purchase these airplanes. Most contracts state that strikes will not be Boeing's responsibility for any delays.

Now...... Boeing sells the public, sends out radio commercials, starts negotiations 4 months early, and shows a true interest in getting this done.

Who..... Who believes Boeing was genuine? The public, the airlines, and world.

How.... Boeing spent millions to publicize this. In reality, what if the planes were delayed because of vendors not getting the stuff out to Boeing fast enough? Does Boeing then pay for the delays?

Why...... Boeing sends out a contract to vote on. Gets shot down.. Boeing walks into 48 hours of negotiations.... And walks out..... Says they won't give in.......

Final..... In a month or two, eventually something will give. Boeing may have saved money by going this route. Crazy to say, but we know Boeing has wanted a strike in the past to get caught up.

Can Boeing get away with a 787 delay again? Is this perhaps the reason? Come on.... Your so focused on blaming the union right now..... Maybe that is what this game really is all about!!!!!!!!


My name is F9Animal, and I approve this message!  

[Edited 2008-09-05 20:23:19]


I Am A Different Animal!!
User currently offlineTdscanuck From Canada, joined Jan 2006, 12709 posts, RR: 80
Reply 11, posted (6 years 3 months 3 weeks 1 day 20 hours ago) and read 13499 times:



Quoting Khobar (Reply 8):
I'd say there's a real risk of some of the outer fringe deliveries being converted.

For what? The economics that drove the initial orders haven't changed. The IAM stike might last 1-2 months...the 787 has already been delayed well over a year. If *that* didn't cause orders to convert to Airbus, why would a 1-2 month delay that doesn't change the deliverable product cause it?

Tom.


User currently offlineN174UA From United States of America, joined Jun 2006, 994 posts, RR: 0
Reply 12, posted (6 years 3 months 3 weeks 1 day 20 hours ago) and read 13412 times:



Quoting Clickhappy (Thread starter):
at 12:01 Saturday. The same day unemployment hit a 5-year high in Washington state.

No kidding. These guys didn't pick the best time, and I don't think they'll get as much sympathy this time around. 11% raise over 3 years...how many companies do you know of that are doing well and offering an average of just over 3% a year? I busted my ass last year and just barely got 3%.

Quoting Clickhappy (Reply 3):
Personally I can't wait for Boeing to leave Seattle.

Well, the HQ left already, and it's really only a matter of time (and # of strikes) before the rest leaves. Not good news for a guy who lives 3 miles from the Everett plant.


User currently offlineKen777 From United States of America, joined Mar 2004, 8483 posts, RR: 9
Reply 13, posted (6 years 3 months 3 weeks 1 day 19 hours ago) and read 13405 times:

I wish the workers well. I do believe that when all is said & done the average worker will have lost more in wages than the additional payments Boeing will make to them because of the strike.

The union bosses will still get their paychecks during the strike. If they had to take the same strike pay as the average worker the strike would be a short one.

I'll be the first to admit that Boeing is in pretty good shape right now on the financial side. I'll also admit that they will need a few billion dollars for R&D of some new planes after the 787 and 748 are completed. Those investments will be a major factor for long term employment by these same workers.

Too much for this old guy to work out - I just hope that both sides get pragmatic as fast as possible.


User currently offlineStratosphere From United States of America, joined Sep 2007, 1658 posts, RR: 5
Reply 14, posted (6 years 3 months 3 weeks 1 day 19 hours ago) and read 13398 times:



Quoting F9Animal (Reply 10):
BOEING WANTED THE STRIKE!!!!!!???????

I can actually believe that. I know in my case at nwa it was for sure they forced the strike. They may run you guys to the street to see how hungry you get who knows. The only difference is nwa wanted the mechanics GONE. I wouldn't think that was the case here. But I can believe what you are saying.. Hey F9 how bad was the fight at the union hall? I didn't read anything about it.



NWA THE TRUE EVIL EMPIRE
User currently offlineWingedMigrator From United States of America, joined Oct 2005, 2260 posts, RR: 56
Reply 15, posted (6 years 3 months 3 weeks 1 day 19 hours ago) and read 13392 times:



Quoting Clickhappy (Reply 7):
Drive down the street to the Airbus dealership and take home a couple of 777-300ERs?

 rotfl 

I have a great deal for you my friend! A couple of used A345's with some chrome rims, Trent 500 sound system and under-wing mood lighting! Also a barely used A346, needs front end alignment, but otherwise like new.

Quoting F9Animal (Reply 10):
Most contracts state that strikes will not be Boeing's responsibility for any delays.

But it's not like that force majeure clause washes away the other 18 months of delay that did not arise from the strike. I doubt Boeing could get relief for any more than a day-for-day delivery slip.

Also, the penalty payments are only one source of revenue loss; the delay defers income regardless of its cause, cutting into ROI.

It's an interesting theory though-- the strike may buy time to burn down the pending change engineering. There are few things as challenging as maintaining a disciplined change process when under the gun to deliver yesterday.


User currently offlineGearup From Canada, joined Dec 2000, 578 posts, RR: 1
Reply 16, posted (6 years 3 months 3 weeks 1 day 19 hours ago) and read 13391 times:

Maybe this is a simple case of Boeing trying to avoid the mistakes that were made in the auto industry. While the big full size SUV and fully loaded pickup profits were rolling in GM just basically said to the unions "where do we sign?" and gave them what they wanted. Now that the gas is 3 to 4 bucks a gallon, nobody wants Hummers any more and GM is staring chapter 11 in the face, almost completely unable to compete on costs. Now while that is a gross oversimplification of the dilemma that GM is in, it is the basic truth. Of course it didn't happen overnight, it took about 40 years. Boeing is no GM (Thank God) but it is competing with a commercially agressive competitor and maybe in future years both Airbus and Boeing will both find themselves competing with low cost producers in emerging nations like India and China.


I have no memory of this place.
User currently offlineRedFlyer From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 4376 posts, RR: 28
Reply 17, posted (6 years 3 months 3 weeks 1 day 19 hours ago) and read 13376 times:



Quoting F9Animal (Reply 10):

Great post, F9! I would only add that the strike, in this economic environment, gives Boeing all the ammunition they need to justify the systematic outsourcing of jobs that they've undertaken in recent years and probably will undertake in the future. Most Americans would trade their mother and first-born for the payscale and bennies that IAM members get.



My other home is a Piper Cherokee 180C
User currently offlineStitch From United States of America, joined Jul 2005, 31437 posts, RR: 85
Reply 18, posted (6 years 3 months 3 weeks 1 day 19 hours ago) and read 13335 times:
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I really don't see where a long-duration strike helps Boeing.

The 787 suppliers are just about complete with ZA005 and ZA006. A strike will give them more time to complete ZA007-onwards prior to delivery, but eventually they'll have to stop further production (as Spirit already has for Section 41) due to a lack of storage space. And with four 787s already in position on the FAL, Boeing doesn't have space to store ZA005 or later birds.

Now, there have been rumblings that their might be supplier delays on the 747-8F, but if there are not, then those parts will also be piling up because Boeing needs to first finish the 747-400s and then convert the FAL.

So maybe 30 days might give Boeing some "free" breathing room, but anything like 90-120 days would likely hurt Boeing far more then help it unless all their suppliers are totally swamped themselves and need that time to catch up.


User currently offlineCoolfish1103 From United States of America, joined Feb 2008, 405 posts, RR: 1
Reply 19, posted (6 years 3 months 3 weeks 1 day 19 hours ago) and read 13333 times:

People will never satisfy.

No one really wins at a strike, but if Boeing goes naive and agree on the benefits and raise, then it's only Boeing losing out. Plus... goes on strike does not mean Boeing will give all those goodies.


User currently offlineF9Animal From United States of America, joined Dec 2004, 5127 posts, RR: 28
Reply 20, posted (6 years 3 months 3 weeks 1 day 19 hours ago) and read 13284 times:



Quoting Stratosphere (Reply 14):
Hey F9 how bad was the fight at the union hall? I didn't read anything about it.

It was alot of yelling, screaming, and profanity. I did hear a few punches were thrown, but overall, it was not as bad as some have rumored it to be. I chatted with a guy from the Associated Press that night who was at the hall during the conference. He said that nobody was arrested like rumored, and that it was more verbal and throwing of things. Also, I have chatted with several upper union officals who said the same thing.



I Am A Different Animal!!
User currently offlineKhobar From United States of America, joined Mar 2006, 2379 posts, RR: 4
Reply 21, posted (6 years 3 months 3 weeks 1 day 19 hours ago) and read 13250 times:



Quoting Tdscanuck (Reply 11):
For what? The economics that drove the initial orders haven't changed. The IAM stike might last 1-2 months...the 787 has already been delayed well over a year. If *that* didn't cause orders to convert to Airbus, why would a 1-2 month delay that doesn't change the deliverable product cause it?

If the 787 were ready to fly except for the strike, I'd say you had a point. The truth is the 787 is NOT ready to fly - with yet another delay likely coming down the pipeline anyway. No one, including Boeing, has demonstrated any clue when the 787 will actually get airborne. As an example, we were old May 2008, then it was last quarter 2008, and now it looks like early 2009.

On top of that, yes, the IAM strike might last 1-2 months, and then it will take time to get back up to speed which could be anything given their track record.


User currently offlinePianos101 From United States of America, joined Jan 2008, 365 posts, RR: 0
Reply 22, posted (6 years 3 months 3 weeks 1 day 19 hours ago) and read 13249 times:



Quoting F9Animal (Reply 20):

When you get to the picket line, care to take some "real" pictures for those of us that are not there to see it? I don't think the media picture will do justice... Good luck to you all, though.

Quoting Clickhappy (Reply 3):
787 suppliers are caught up.

Really? Then how come myself and about 10 other people from Philly and Mesa Enterprise Support are rushing down to Vought next week to help them with planning and tag dispositions (mostly L/N 7)? They are in dire need of help just to get what they have out the door. They're happy when they ship barrels at 75% complete. How would you like it if you were a customer and you were sold something that was 75% complete and the seller was happy about it??? The suppliers are definitely not caught up and will actually be relieved at the strike....

Quoting Stitch (Reply 18):
Now, there have been rumblings that their might be supplier delays on the 747-8F, but if there are not, then those parts will also be piling up because Boeing needs to first finish the 747-400s and then convert the FAL.

Yeah I don't know how true that is. We saw pictures last week of the wing extension (for the -8) being shipped from KAL, only 2 months after the last drawings were released. Very quick turnaround on their part; I think most of the suppliers are in that realm since the -8 isn't as "radical" as 87. But isn't a *good* portion of the -8 (well, compared to 87) built up by Boeing (read: IAM)? Those items would definitely be affected, but so would the conversion of the FAL so I guess it's all a wash...


User currently offlineF9Animal From United States of America, joined Dec 2004, 5127 posts, RR: 28
Reply 23, posted (6 years 3 months 3 weeks 1 day 19 hours ago) and read 13232 times:



Quoting Pianos101 (Reply 22):
When you get to the picket line, care to take some "real" pictures for those of us that are not there to see it? I don't think the media picture will do justice... Good luck to you all, though.

Sure Pianos101, would be happy to. I however am dreading it, as I am not in favor of the results we have today.



I Am A Different Animal!!
User currently offlineRoseFlyer From United States of America, joined Feb 2004, 9828 posts, RR: 52
Reply 24, posted (6 years 3 months 3 weeks 1 day 19 hours ago) and read 13234 times:



Quoting F9Animal (Reply 10):

Alright.... Lots of good rumors flying around..... Have an open mind about this. Sure, some will throw things at me for saying this...... BOEING WANTED THE STRIKE!!!!!!???????

I know enough high level managers at Boeing, some of whom were involved in contigency plans if a strike happens to know that you are absolutely wrong in saying that Boeing wanted a strike.

Pushing the blame of a strike to hide 787 delays will no where near come to covering the cost of the strike. Yes the strike will allow engineering and suppliers to catch up on 787 work, but the cost of a strike is extreme. Boeing will lose 100 million per day. The 737 factory, which is the money maker of Boeing Commercial Airplanes will be idle except the engineers and few managers still at work. That line alone produces 11% of the company's revenue, so imagine that shut down and not making any money and just costing day by day. Yes airlines can wait, but the lost productivity and revenue is a huge cost. Now add in the 777, 747 and 767 lines along with work at the delivery center, development center, Portland and Wichita, and pretty soon the company will have lost all hope of a profit.

I know my year end bonus has drastically shrunk with this strike!



If you have never designed an airplane part before, let the real designers do the work!
25 B777fan : Who believes the union was? In one of your earlier posts from Wednesday, before the ballots were counted, you said for us to read the fine print. I h
26 Lightsaber : It was no fun going into work when the IAM struck at another company I was working for. Where are they going? Bangkok? Good question. I googled and c
27 United1 : So out of curiosity are they planning on picketing just at the plants themselves or will there be a picket line on Riverside Plaza in Chicago? Best of
28 Jacobin777 : Come down here to sunny SJC area..the weather is warmer and we still have tons of empty buildings from the "dot.bomb" days.. .. Actually, what I've n
29 RoseFlyer : Only machinists in Washington, Portland and Wichita are affected. I doubt there will be people travelling to Chicago to picket. There certainly will
30 Pianos101 : Really? I thought you (personally) wanted to strike?? Is that what you're not happy about; not approving a contract? At work we were talking about Bo
31 Seafleet : I am an ex pat Brit living in CA just so you know where my view point is coming from. UK industrial relations history should prove to any union strike
32 Slider : Does anyone else find it ironic that so many of the airlines that these workers are building planes for are suffering and have employees that are taki
33 Ikramerica : Every union in history has claimed that the management "bargained illegally." It's just boilerplate rhetoric. May be true, may not, but usually not.
34 XT6Wagon : Its 1/2 the reason I'm thinking the 737RS will end up having multiple assembly halls, many located in areas with major customers. I bet somewhere in
35 Stratosphere : That is spot on...Public support usually is low anyway as far as strikes go. But right now you will really find no sympathy with the current market.
36 Worldrider : 3% is the current inflation, so the " Greedy Blue Colar" is not asking wage rise, he is just asking to catch up with the rising cost of life..less th
37 Post contains links NEMA : Striking workforces are always sad situations, this being a challenging industry as well with tight competition makes me think it will be over quickly
38 F9Animal : I was and I am officially on strike. But, there was that glimmer of hope still, and I know I was not the only one feeling that way. It was unfortunat
39 Post contains links Pliersinsight : That is the most hysterical thing I have read on this site to date. Hence why there aren't a ton of steel mills in Pittsburgh anymore and the United
40 Francoflier : Some people are being really pessimistic about the whole thing. It's just a damn strike. Where I come from (you'll have guessed), there's one of these
41 Moo : Well, that about does it - I would be extremely impressed with Boeing if they manage to get the 787 flying this year, but I doubt it is going to happe
42 Par13del : I'll contribute a couple points based on earlier responses. 1. The auto companies. How did the unions force management to continue to produce fuel guz
43 Atlanta : How about those nice facilities at LGB? Atlanta
44 Legacytravel : Well after reading what Boenings final offer was. Bonues averaging $6500 per year, 11% pay raises and average of around $35,000 per employee for the t
45 Glideslope : The 48hr extension talks were held in Disney World, as the Union was having their Convention. What a contrast. The Union Boss screws the member then g
46 Par13del : I think this is somewhat disingenious, Boeing has done, is doing, and is being encouraged by posters on this site and elsewhere to do the same thing,
47 Post contains links Jacobin777 : ...they are trying to "catch up" meanwhile everyone else is falling behind (ok, maybe not everyone, but millions of others)...maybe these guys should
48 MMEPHX : $11K per year assuming the bonuses are paid...I know a few million folks that would love that deal. What are the IAM trying to achieve? Can't imagine
49 Slider : What the IAM fails to realize is that when you factor in health care, retirement and other benefits, their members are little kings. Myopic view to on
50 Moo : Take the same workers, only this time the union would be crippled and Boeing wouldn't have a guillotine over its head.
51 Par13del : Since a lot of the jobs are automated, leave the workers, hire the local talent, train them to use the equipment and the savigns and profit margin go
52 Wedgetail737 : You should see all of the comments flying around in the TV station articles online. The IAM folks apparently were very angry at Boeing from the start.
53 Stitch : I'm guessing a one-month delay which means she still might get out before year end. Maybe take a note from the TU-144 and send her up for an hour on
54 Par13del : Sure means that the next product Boeing comes up with must either be some other revolution in technology or the airlines and countries deisgn and con
55 Moo : The problem is, and this is only my opinion, is that the aircraft could have been *too* perfect - the period between signing for and receiving a bran
56 Lightsaber : No worries. So is it Houston or Mobile? Lightsaber
57 Mayor : What an appropriate place for him.
58 Bennett123 : Legacytravel What is a "Right to Work State", does it mean that a job is guaranteed to any one who wants one.
59 Manfredj : A little dramatic aren't we? And rightly so. I would do the same thing Reagan did for the Air Traffic controllers strike...Fire them all. Never had a
60 RoseFlyer : Well you make a point, but it's the same union representing the Boeing machinists that also represents a vast number of airline workers in the US. Yo
61 Mayor : Kind of makes you wonder if the IAM isn't doing this to hurt the DL/NW merger, in a backhanded sort of way. Or at least hurt the airline after the me
62 Mrcomet : The images on CNN of workers celebrating and slapping each other was disgusting. Boeing would do well to get rid of them. I know people who enjoy dest
63 87GROUNDED : I sure wish I has a 35% pay raise this year. I really feel sorry for those poor machinists barely existing above the poverty line. It looks like they'
64 Post contains links United1 : Well I'm not LegacyTravel but.... No it means that you, as an employee, have an option of joining a union if one exists for your job at your employer
65 F9Animal : I would doubt that is even the case. Seriously, it was not the union that did this. It was the overwhelming votes by the employees that gave us the r
66 F9Animal : Lots of rumors flying around about that. But, Boeing can't run from this. They know that no matter what, they will face a labor crunch, even if they
67 Stitch : In hindsight, it was wildly optimistic. Boeing should have either changed what they built planes out of or how they built them, not both at the same
68 Mayor : Was it not the IAM that recommended to the rank and file they should go on strike? Was Boeing negotiating with the IAM or the employees, themselves?
69 Danny : Cancel 787 with 2010 delivery and lease A332 with 2010 delivery. For smaller airlines operating on 3-4 thousand sectors that is attractive alternativ
70 Moo : I'm not sure I agree with this - again, we have critical path items that should have been in place for first flight in 2007 still not ready. If its n
71 Tdscanuck : The HQ didn't leave to get out of Washington, it went to Chicago to keep it away from both the Boeing and Douglas influences..."neutral territory", s
72 AirframeAS : It also means that your employment status is 'At-Will' status and that the company can let you go for any reason with or without cause. And you can l
73 Warren747sp : The tanker orders is definitely going to EADS now. thanks a lot to Boeing workers.
74 B777fan : You would be correct if that was all there was. These percentages come on top of a COLA that keeps the base rate even with inflation. This is 'real'
75 Moo : Your comment would be justified, if the brake system was still not a current concern, as it was when mentioned in August.
76 B777fan : I live in Illinois which is not a "right to work state", Iowa, right next door is. Unions can and do organize in both, but in Illinois you must join
77 Bmacleod : Hopefully the strike will be over in a week or so... But the last strike in 2005 went on for a month so who knows.....
78 Stitch : Aye, but Boeing would have been able to concentrate on one or the other. So those critical path items would have either been identified earlier or, i
79 Art : I think that Boeing did both themselves and their customers a disservice by undetaking to deliver the goods some 4 years after launch. They should ha
80 Moo : Does anyone think this will affect the 787-3 decision to be made?
81 Okie73 : I wonder, was Boeing willing to take a strike, at least short term, because it allows all the suppliers for the 787 time to catch up?
82 Alessandro : Hummer was sold to Russia, I think Boeing is going to need to outsource some of their assembly line outside US, Russian enclave of Kaliningrad would
83 F9Animal : We the employees requested the union to go to the bargaining table, and place our concerns, requests, and issues to Boeing. When the union came back
84 Pianos101 : Can you (or anyone else here) recall a time that the union HAS recommend to vote to approve the contract? Just curios, because it still seems that th
85 474218 : You mean it was all up to Boeing to give the union what it wanted or the union was going to strike? I though they were to negotiate during that 48 ho
86 4holer : My response to this was exactly what Alessandro beat me to with this... Though I had no specific city as he did. Lots of good aerospace workers over
87 F9Animal : Oh boy. I have to really think about that one. I am pretty tired too, so my guess on years might be a little off. It was around 96 or so, when the me
88 Tdscanuck : How do you figure? The strike will be over and done long before tanker rebid happens. And the only option to Boeing on the tanker is hardly immune to
89 Stitch : That decision is going to be driven by NH and JL, I imagine, since the plane was meant for them. Personally, I think Boeing should just sell them 767
90 Moo : The brake system is a third party product, with the project ran by GE Aviation - I hardly think they sat on their asses because Boeing gave them more
91 A10WARTHOG : Boeing always call there last offer their "best and final". Two or three months ago Boeing came out and said no GWI at all. There first offer had a G
92 Moo : Whats in that for ANA and JAL tho? How about launch orders for the 757 replacement?
93 Buddys747 : Got any proof of that? EVERY UNION? I'd watch my words.. So because others are suffering, the "demands" of IAM are unreasonable and they should be ju
94 Moo : If they want a bigger slice of the pie, buy shares and get a dividend like everyone else.
95 474218 : I have printed a copy of the proposed contract (Boeing best and final offer), I can't wait to compare it to the contract the union finally approves.
96 Aviationhack : Does this strike affect any military contracts?
97 Art : This figure of $100 million loss a day during the strike baffles me. What does loss mean? I have difficulty conceiving that a 30 day strike would wip
98 Buddys747 : [quote=Moo,reply=94]Quoting Buddys747 (Reply 93): If my company is profitable ( very profitable ) why shouldn't the employees want a bigger piece of t
99 474218 : The F-22 & P-8 may be more.
100 Post contains links and images PPVRA : Savannah is a good place for Boeing. Train lines and the port, also not far from contractors in the Carolinas. Gulfstream already there. Nice town, p
101 Pianos101 : Just for the record, i'm not in SPEEA (anymore). here in philly the engineers are non-union (and i can't recall what the machinists are, though it's
102 Tdscanuck : A loss is against revenue, not profit. So a 30 day strike would be a $3 billion hit to *revenue* (assuming the $100 million/day figure is accurate).
103 A10WARTHOG : I depends on what you call significant. If Boeing would return the medical to pre best and final offer, I personally think there would be a better ch
104 Stitch : Earlier delivery. (Likely) better pricing. Similar capacity. More commonality with their existing 767-300ER fleet. Flexibility to use it on longer mi
105 4holer : So part of the Union's problem is they want guaranteed job security, and to get that job security, in addition to the other financial incentives, they
106 Revelation : I listened to a radio discussion of the strike and had the same question. My best guess is Boeing wants to put out the biggest number possible, so th
107 Pianos101 : I read somewhere on friday that aircraft ready to be delivered as of yesterday will still be delivered on-time. Is that not true? I mean if there are
108 Legacytravel : A right to work state means that you are not required to join a union and if the the union strikes you will not be a scab due to the fact that you ar
109 474218 : Delivery's will continue by using management personnel. Even if there are squawks on the test flight they can be rectified by management, after all t
110 Post contains links Revelation : Answering my own question, from James Wallace on Aerospace: Seems silly to me, trying to get Boeing to give back union jobs and constrict Boeing's ab
111 AirNZ : Cheers! I've been trying to say the same thing (making a point on the matter of principle and nothing specific to this strike and which I honestly ha
112 Par13del : So far Boeing has been able to outsource jobs to their benefit and their detriment, some can say the debacle that the current B-787 program is in cou
113 Stratosphere : Yes there will. Especially if it drags on. Right now times are tough and they will have to live on the weekly stipend the union will give them becaus
114 A10WARTHOG : I have heard a rumor and only a rumor that some airlines will not allow any work on their planes until after the strike. For the most part I would sa
115 AT : Can they hire temporary workers while the strike is on in order to minimize delays? Or are the workers too specialized to replace short-term.
116 Cloudy : For the most part these are highly skilled people. My guess is that manufacturing will come to a standstill during the strike. A lot of testing could
117 Tdscanuck : I wasn't very clear...deliveries don't come to a stop at the instant the strike begins...I can't think of any final step that requires an IAM person
118 2175301 : The work involves ranges from general to highly specialized. Temporary workers may be able to within a week or so do some general things - but not ce
119 YWG747 : My name is YWG747 and I approve it too! Go Strikers! I support you 100%
120 SASD209 : There are indeed people who are professional "strike breakers". I've run across them in a previous occupation, they are: aerospace mechanics, inspect
121 A10WARTHOG : The only thing with Boeing is that an A&P does not mean you can work on the plane. They have training course you have to be cetified in by Boeing befo
122 Stratosphere : I would bet that most of the Boeing employees do not have an A@P. It is most likely not needed. Yep a travelling SCAB there are quite a few of them N
123 Rwylie77 : Well Airbus will be the only winners here. If the workers win, Boeing take on more cost they have to pass on to their customers in the price of their
124 Par13del : Thankfully, execs in the EU only have this sort of thinking concerning a/c purchases, imagine if that sort of thinking went into other areas, EU work
125 AT : This may be a naive comment given that I have no experience in running a business or in labor relations. But could you have some sort of escalator cla
126 Legacytravel : Boeing and any company being held hostage should seek them out as well. My attitude would be different of the company had given them a low ball offer
127 Tdscanuck : You only have to have an A&P to do repairs on certified aircraft. Aircraft in the factory aren't certified...they don't get that until just before th
128 RoseFlyer : Yes engineers can move and an ABET accredited engineering degree in the hands of a US citizen is very powerful. It would not be that easy finding ano
129 474218 : I think you will find that an A&P licence is not required to work on a certified aircraft either. Think about the thousands of mechanics working in t
130 2175301 : Lets talk of long term effects: First off - the strike will likely last at least one month, perhaps as long as 3 months, and in the end the Union will
131 4holer : That's hysterical! I'm picturing a guy, a skilled mechanic talking to his wife at the homeless shelter... "Honey, I know I havent gotten a paycheck i
132 Post contains links LY4XELD : I'm in support of the IAM to strike, but questioning this strategy: "On day one of the Machinists strike at Boeing, the union's national leader, Tom B
133 AuroraLives : Would it not be correct to say that the revenue is "defered". Unless there is mass cancellation of orders, that money will still be realized.... just
134 SASD209 : Where did I say I was a "union boy"? You have no idea what I do for a living, so stop making assumptions. Also, I'm noplace near Washington, so I wou
135 Stitch : Boeing's margins are significantly higher then Airbus' right now (for a number of reasons). Boeing could happily eat a 20% pay and benefit increase w
136 Lightsaber : Well written statement. However, why exclude hurricane zones? Its not that bad operating as long as the plant is far enough inland to avoid the storm
137 United1 : I dont think its so much the buildings or the planes inside the buildings that would be the problem, but any aircraft that had been rolled outside an
138 2175301 : Its not just the winds on the factory buildings. Its the potential effects of the winds on any aircraft or major parts stored outside that cannot fly
139 SASDC8 : Is this likely?? I mean in Europe, as some pointed out, we are used to strikes but they never last that long, though the are much more frequent. Airb
140 Tdscanuck : I thought the work still had to be signed off by an A&P licensed mechanic, even if it was done by someone without a license. Yes, there is. But it ha
141 AirNZ : With all due respect, your 'attitude' is completely irrelevant in the matter if you really want to get correct about it. In addition, the second part
142 474218 : Both Houston and Mobile are on the coast and subject to hurricanes, when they are in season. You must be smoking something good if you think Boeing c
143 Stitch : Boeing has already offered an 11% pay increase, which does not include additional cash payouts and bonuses that equal a few more percentage points. T
144 Post contains links Pygmalion : There are lots ot Temp Aerospace workers around... these guys do work for nonunion shops all the time. A lot of them have A&P. If i heard correctly s
145 AuroraLives : Good explaination... but to be fair they are also saving by not paying a (loaded) labour rate.. not paying suppliers for defered deliveries... saving
146 Pianos101 : Please don't make assumptions like that. Just because there are mechanics that worked at Vought, it does NOT mean they know the technology. Vought wa
147 MCIGuy : How long would it take and how expensive would it be for Boeing to simply deunionize? Six months, a year? What are the legal ramifications? Wouldn't i
148 2175301 : Labor relations in the US are complete different than in Europe. The US does not have couple of day protest strikes as is common in Europe. Here a st
149 Tdscanuck : Years (10+). They'd have to build a whole new engineering and factory work force from scratch in a new location. Never mind that the attempt to do su
150 Scbriml : Aside from not having to pay the striking IAM members, all other Boeing staff will be working, so they won't be saving much on utilities (it's not li
151 MCIGuy : So it's practically impossible for BCA to deunionize, thanks for the explanations! Wow, the unions have a lot more power in our legal system than I th
152 2175301 : The reality is that Boeing and the existing striking Union will have to settle at some time. Long term though. Shifting any new production lines else
153 Pygmalion : No assumptions were made. A whole bunch of those contract workers at Vought and GA are PlaneTech workers. Lots of them are still there to help as the
154 RoseFlyer : It's deferred, but that still means that it hurts now. The company still has to pay for all the infrastructure. Their backlog might get extended a mo
155 Baroque : Nice example of intellectual property cutting two ways? In spite of best efforts not everything can be written down, or even if it is, it rarely conv
156 Rwylie77 : Yes because aircraft are sold in dollars, while Airbus's costs are in Euro's, which is CURRENTLY strong against the dollar. All it will take is for t
157 A520 : That would be equivalent to Boeing paying its employees ... in Euros. I seriously doubt this would happend!
158 Post contains links Slz396 : I was just thinking the same! Imagine that: Boeing paying in Euro... Anyway, interesting to see that after all the doomsday scenario's about EADS on
159 Singapore_Air : The strike has begun according to pictures on CNBC Europe (CNBC US).
160 JPRM1 : With the strike, all suppliers will have to stop shipping their parts. This will strongly impact some of them who already are in bad shape. Will they
161 Clickhappy : Thankfully for Boeing all of the 787 assembly tooling is on a moving line, as in moving the line to a different state. I'd say a weeks worth of An-124
162 Mrocktor : Since the company owns the job, that is only fair - not "favoring".
163 Slider : Add in high gas costs, housing crisis repercussions, etc, and the IAM's timing is really bad because the pressure of these workers to take care of th
164 F9Animal : And in no time, the employees of this would organize in no time. If Boeing could get away with paying minimum wage, they would do it.
165 Clickhappy : What a lame response. If Boeing mistreats its workers so badly then go get a job somewhere else. You aren't slaves. And if you are jealous of how muc
166 F9Animal : I could easily get a job in management. However, I happen to enjoy doing what I do with Boeing. I have no choice but to be union, as it is a requirem
167 Clickhappy : More facts on how ridiculous the IAM is. Currently a single IAM worker pays $200 a year for healthcare. Boeing wants to raise this to $225/year. For a
168 Khobar : Not sure this is true since all the incentives granted Boeing require(d) the 787 to be produced in Washington State. I guess Boeing could move produc
169 474218 : I checked the FAA requirements for Repair Stations and the only thing they require is adequate training of production and inspection personnel. They
170 Pianos101 : I'm hoping that was sarcastic, but he was definitely not against the strike... He might be happy about his JOB, but there's still that "mob" mentalit
171 F9Animal : Yawn........... More bashing...... Sure is getting old.......... Yawn........... Going to go lay out in the sun. Happy with the job. Unhappy with the
172 MCIGuy : But they're talking about the final assembly line, not the subs. Any move would be more lateral to a state like Kansas, for instance (RTW state), unl
173 Slider : I'd welcome that kind of insult.
174 Trex8 : would that mean Boeing would have to give up their tax breaks they got from WA state ? certainly the legislation was written so that the tax breaks d
175 Stitch : The tax breaks only apply to the 787 program. The 737, 747, 767 and 777 continue to be taxed at the higher B&O rate.
176 F9Animal : And they have the IAM down in Kansas. Look guys, Boeing already tried going cheaper on the 787. It blew up in their face, and turned into a nightmare
177 Tdscanuck : You lost me...Boeing's contracts are in dollars and their sales are in dollars. Changes of the dollar against the euro should have no impact on Boein
178 F9Animal : And when the IAM whens the Unfair Labor Practice lawsuit, we are going to get paid for the time we were on strike. Not a bad vacation if you ask me.
179 Trex8 : I'm no lawyer but I don't believe a reading of the legislation would support that contention, in fact part of the US' defense against the EU in the s
180 Trex8 : for those who got nothing better to do, here's the relevant passage of the tax law (13)(a) Beginning October 1, 2005, upon every person engaging 38 wi
181 474218 : I don't remember hearing that Boeing management "cheered" when the union vote was announced?
182 Stitch : That does indeed look like the case. Well, the B&O tax has done damage to the State's business climate since it's inception, so any reduction is good
183 Flighty : Where are some good American scabs to get this line moving again? Wouldn't it be funny if Boeing told the IAM to just walk? I'm not talking about the
184 RoseFlyer : Boeing can't just break the unions in Washington. The unions together amount to almost 50,000 people. You can't just replace them and train a new wor
185 Tdscanuck : Some? Where are you gonna get 20,000+ scabs and hire them all in on something like 30 days lead time? Unfortunately, legally, they're basically one a
186 Stratosphere : You obviously haven't seen what NWA did to the mechanics and they have live flights unlike Boeing who have to meet schedules. I will grant you 50,000
187 Flighty : Really? I did not realize there was such a brotherhood mentality at Boeing between engineers and production floor. It certainly wasn't that way when
188 StuckInCA : I'd bet you a beer on that. I really don't think that would happen.
189 F9Animal : They would strike. There is a brotherhood, and you should have seen them come down from their offices, and join the marches. All if not most are wear
190 Ken777 : Just heard on the radio that Spirit employees in TUL are going on a 3 day work week due to the strike. The first I've learned about the strike actuall
191 Tdscanuck : It's there...mostly because how Boeing treats one union seems to be a good barometer for how they plan to treat the others. I don't get it...even if
192 Stratosphere : What they say and do are two different things.. I have lived the dream of being on the street for me it was 6 months for others it was 444 days. When
193 StuckInCA : You could be right. But I'm guessing... I'm only basing this on speculation as an engineer myself. I've only considered an offer from Boeing, but nev
194 Sxf24 : Um, if Boeing's strategy isn't working, wouldn't they correct - or change - it on their own accord? Isn't that how a free market economy works? Why s
195 F9Animal : Well, let me get a sophisticated example. Then, tell me it is cheaper to outsource. Ready???? The Boeing 787....... They outsourced it.... Now spendi
196 MD-90 : This is the kind of poison that unions, due to their political natures, generate. Boeing wanted this strike? Really? How much more deluded can you ge
197 2175301 : This statement cuts both ways. What will the Union do after missing their paychecks for several weeks to several months? Are there perhaps thick brai
198 Scouseflyer : $12B - that's almost enough to pay for the development of the A350XWB out of their own cash reserves. Let's hope that things get sorted soon at Boein
199 Sxf24 : My point is, if that is truly the case and it is cheaper to keep a larger portion of production in house (ala 777), why is the union afraid of outsou
200 Mrocktor : When the law allows a union to hold a company's capital (machines, installations, work in progress) hostage, there is no limit to what this union can
201 474218 : Boeing has deeper pockets than the average union member. I asked you before and you never answered "did you hear Boeing management cheer when the str
202 Post contains links HapppyLandings : I just recently viewed a great documentary about Boeing Field, and the history. http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-9180496213842424378&hl=en-CA
203 StuckInCA : Great post!
204 F9Animal : Boeing does have deeper pockets. But, Boeing has already lost almost $300,000,000.00 so far. To be honest, I have not lost a penny. I already had a j
205 Diamond : Thread locked due to size. Continuation thread to be started.
206 Luv2cattlecall : testing if this is locked or not before I type up a novel to post
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