I for one do not look forward to coming into work on Monday. Strikes are hard on everybody. No one ever wins in a strike. The IAM has their reasons which they list on their website. Boeing has been earning good profits since the last contract and IAM wants more of it. They want the benefits, retirement, salary, cost of living, employee incentive program and everything else that the company has slowly taken away or not granted. In the end, there will probably be fewer and fewer IAM jobs as Boeing sells off parts of the company to outside companies that can do the work at a lower cost. Engineering is subverted when major design is sent out like on the 787. IAM is subverted when a shop or division is closed and the work is outsourced to make a specific fastener or bracket. Lots of small shops are making parts for Boeing. It's risky, but the only way to make a profit. Boeing's goal is profit, since it is a for profit company afterall.
Hopefully no one suffers too bad, but I'm sure many will. Even with this, I'm a die hard Boeing fan.
[Edited 2008-09-05 16:07:29]
If you have never designed an airplane part before, let the real designers do the work!
Khobar From United States of America, joined Mar 2006, 2379 posts, RR: 4 Reply 8, posted (5 years 3 months 5 days 17 hours ago) and read 13099 times:
Clearly demonstrates that no amount of incentive justified Boeing's decision to work with IAM workers.
Quoting Clickhappy (Reply 7): Cancel? And do what? Drive down the street to the Airbus dealership and take home a couple of 777-300ERs? Cancel your 2010 787 slots for a 2014 A350 order?
Those 2010 slots are actually 2011, no...2012, no...2013, no...
with all the delays piling on.
And not all airlines have 2010 slots anyway, right? There is some overlap with the hopeful delivery of the A350's, so I'd say there's a real risk of some of the outer fringe deliveries being converted.
Tdscanuck From Canada, joined Jan 2006, 12709 posts, RR: 81 Reply 11, posted (5 years 3 months 5 days 17 hours ago) and read 12909 times:
Quoting Khobar (Reply 8): I'd say there's a real risk of some of the outer fringe deliveries being converted.
For what? The economics that drove the initial orders haven't changed. The IAM stike might last 1-2 months...the 787 has already been delayed well over a year. If *that* didn't cause orders to convert to Airbus, why would a 1-2 month delay that doesn't change the deliverable product cause it?
N174UA From United States of America, joined Jun 2006, 994 posts, RR: 0 Reply 12, posted (5 years 3 months 5 days 16 hours ago) and read 12822 times:
Quoting Clickhappy (Thread starter): at 12:01 Saturday. The same day unemployment hit a 5-year high in Washington state.
No kidding. These guys didn't pick the best time, and I don't think they'll get as much sympathy this time around. 11% raise over 3 years...how many companies do you know of that are doing well and offering an average of just over 3% a year? I busted my ass last year and just barely got 3%.
Ken777 From United States of America, joined Mar 2004, 7849 posts, RR: 8 Reply 13, posted (5 years 3 months 5 days 16 hours ago) and read 12815 times:
I wish the workers well. I do believe that when all is said & done the average worker will have lost more in wages than the additional payments Boeing will make to them because of the strike.
The union bosses will still get their paychecks during the strike. If they had to take the same strike pay as the average worker the strike would be a short one.
I'll be the first to admit that Boeing is in pretty good shape right now on the financial side. I'll also admit that they will need a few billion dollars for R&D of some new planes after the 787 and 748 are completed. Those investments will be a major factor for long term employment by these same workers.
Too much for this old guy to work out - I just hope that both sides get pragmatic as fast as possible.
I can actually believe that. I know in my case at nwa it was for sure they forced the strike. They may run you guys to the street to see how hungry you get who knows. The only difference is nwa wanted the mechanics GONE. I wouldn't think that was the case here. But I can believe what you are saying.. Hey F9 how bad was the fight at the union hall? I didn't read anything about it.
WingedMigrator From United States of America, joined Oct 2005, 2066 posts, RR: 56 Reply 15, posted (5 years 3 months 5 days 16 hours ago) and read 12802 times:
Quoting Clickhappy (Reply 7): Drive down the street to the Airbus dealership and take home a couple of 777-300ERs?
I have a great deal for you my friend! A couple of used A345's with some chrome rims, Trent 500 sound system and under-wing mood lighting! Also a barely used A346, needs front end alignment, but otherwise like new.
Quoting F9Animal (Reply 10): Most contracts state that strikes will not be Boeing's responsibility for any delays.
But it's not like that force majeure clause washes away the other 18 months of delay that did not arise from the strike. I doubt Boeing could get relief for any more than a day-for-day delivery slip.
Also, the penalty payments are only one source of revenue loss; the delay defers income regardless of its cause, cutting into ROI.
It's an interesting theory though-- the strike may buy time to burn down the pending change engineering. There are few things as challenging as maintaining a disciplined change process when under the gun to deliver yesterday.
Gearup From Canada, joined Dec 2000, 578 posts, RR: 1 Reply 16, posted (5 years 3 months 5 days 16 hours ago) and read 12801 times:
Maybe this is a simple case of Boeing trying to avoid the mistakes that were made in the auto industry. While the big full size SUV and fully loaded pickup profits were rolling in GM just basically said to the unions "where do we sign?" and gave them what they wanted. Now that the gas is 3 to 4 bucks a gallon, nobody wants Hummers any more and GM is staring chapter 11 in the face, almost completely unable to compete on costs. Now while that is a gross oversimplification of the dilemma that GM is in, it is the basic truth. Of course it didn't happen overnight, it took about 40 years. Boeing is no GM (Thank God) but it is competing with a commercially agressive competitor and maybe in future years both Airbus and Boeing will both find themselves competing with low cost producers in emerging nations like India and China.
Great post, F9! I would only add that the strike, in this economic environment, gives Boeing all the ammunition they need to justify the systematic outsourcing of jobs that they've undertaken in recent years and probably will undertake in the future. Most Americans would trade their mother and first-born for the payscale and bennies that IAM members get.
Stitch From United States of America, joined Jul 2005, 28492 posts, RR: 84 Reply 18, posted (5 years 3 months 5 days 16 hours ago) and read 12745 times:
I really don't see where a long-duration strike helps Boeing.
The 787 suppliers are just about complete with ZA005 and ZA006. A strike will give them more time to complete ZA007-onwards prior to delivery, but eventually they'll have to stop further production (as Spirit already has for Section 41) due to a lack of storage space. And with four 787s already in position on the FAL, Boeing doesn't have space to store ZA005 or later birds.
Now, there have been rumblings that their might be supplier delays on the 747-8F, but if there are not, then those parts will also be piling up because Boeing needs to first finish the 747-400s and then convert the FAL.
So maybe 30 days might give Boeing some "free" breathing room, but anything like 90-120 days would likely hurt Boeing far more then help it unless all their suppliers are totally swamped themselves and need that time to catch up.
F9Animal From United States of America, joined Dec 2004, 4869 posts, RR: 29 Reply 20, posted (5 years 3 months 5 days 16 hours ago) and read 12694 times:
Quoting Stratosphere (Reply 14): Hey F9 how bad was the fight at the union hall? I didn't read anything about it.
It was alot of yelling, screaming, and profanity. I did hear a few punches were thrown, but overall, it was not as bad as some have rumored it to be. I chatted with a guy from the Associated Press that night who was at the hall during the conference. He said that nobody was arrested like rumored, and that it was more verbal and throwing of things. Also, I have chatted with several upper union officals who said the same thing.
Khobar From United States of America, joined Mar 2006, 2379 posts, RR: 4 Reply 21, posted (5 years 3 months 5 days 16 hours ago) and read 12660 times:
Quoting Tdscanuck (Reply 11): For what? The economics that drove the initial orders haven't changed. The IAM stike might last 1-2 months...the 787 has already been delayed well over a year. If *that* didn't cause orders to convert to Airbus, why would a 1-2 month delay that doesn't change the deliverable product cause it?
If the 787 were ready to fly except for the strike, I'd say you had a point. The truth is the 787 is NOT ready to fly - with yet another delay likely coming down the pipeline anyway. No one, including Boeing, has demonstrated any clue when the 787 will actually get airborne. As an example, we were old May 2008, then it was last quarter 2008, and now it looks like early 2009.
On top of that, yes, the IAM strike might last 1-2 months, and then it will take time to get back up to speed which could be anything given their track record.
Really? Then how come myself and about 10 other people from Philly and Mesa Enterprise Support are rushing down to Vought next week to help them with planning and tag dispositions (mostly L/N 7)? They are in dire need of help just to get what they have out the door. They're happy when they ship barrels at 75% complete. How would you like it if you were a customer and you were sold something that was 75% complete and the seller was happy about it??? The suppliers are definitely not caught up and will actually be relieved at the strike....
Quoting Stitch (Reply 18): Now, there have been rumblings that their might be supplier delays on the 747-8F, but if there are not, then those parts will also be piling up because Boeing needs to first finish the 747-400s and then convert the FAL.
Yeah I don't know how true that is. We saw pictures last week of the wing extension (for the -8) being shipped from KAL, only 2 months after the last drawings were released. Very quick turnaround on their part; I think most of the suppliers are in that realm since the -8 isn't as "radical" as 87. But isn't a *good* portion of the -8 (well, compared to 87) built up by Boeing (read: IAM)? Those items would definitely be affected, but so would the conversion of the FAL so I guess it's all a wash...
F9Animal From United States of America, joined Dec 2004, 4869 posts, RR: 29 Reply 23, posted (5 years 3 months 5 days 15 hours ago) and read 12642 times:
Quoting Pianos101 (Reply 22): When you get to the picket line, care to take some "real" pictures for those of us that are not there to see it? I don't think the media picture will do justice... Good luck to you all, though.
Sure Pianos101, would be happy to. I however am dreading it, as I am not in favor of the results we have today.
RoseFlyer From United States of America, joined Feb 2004, 9152 posts, RR: 52 Reply 24, posted (5 years 3 months 5 days 15 hours ago) and read 12644 times:
Quoting F9Animal (Reply 10):
Alright.... Lots of good rumors flying around..... Have an open mind about this. Sure, some will throw things at me for saying this...... BOEING WANTED THE STRIKE!!!!!!???????
I know enough high level managers at Boeing, some of whom were involved in contigency plans if a strike happens to know that you are absolutely wrong in saying that Boeing wanted a strike.
Pushing the blame of a strike to hide 787 delays will no where near come to covering the cost of the strike. Yes the strike will allow engineering and suppliers to catch up on 787 work, but the cost of a strike is extreme. Boeing will lose 100 million per day. The 737 factory, which is the money maker of Boeing Commercial Airplanes will be idle except the engineers and few managers still at work. That line alone produces 11% of the company's revenue, so imagine that shut down and not making any money and just costing day by day. Yes airlines can wait, but the lost productivity and revenue is a huge cost. Now add in the 777, 747 and 767 lines along with work at the delivery center, development center, Portland and Wichita, and pretty soon the company will have lost all hope of a profit.
I know my year end bonus has drastically shrunk with this strike!
If you have never designed an airplane part before, let the real designers do the work!
25 B777fan: Who believes the union was? In one of your earlier posts from Wednesday, before the ballots were counted, you said for us to read the fine print. I h
26 Lightsaber: It was no fun going into work when the IAM struck at another company I was working for. Where are they going? Bangkok? Good question. I googled and c
27 United1: So out of curiosity are they planning on picketing just at the plants themselves or will there be a picket line on Riverside Plaza in Chicago? Best of
28 Jacobin777: Come down here to sunny SJC area..the weather is warmer and we still have tons of empty buildings from the "dot.bomb" days.. .. Actually, what I've n
29 RoseFlyer: Only machinists in Washington, Portland and Wichita are affected. I doubt there will be people travelling to Chicago to picket. There certainly will
30 Pianos101: Really? I thought you (personally) wanted to strike?? Is that what you're not happy about; not approving a contract? At work we were talking about Bo
31 Seafleet: I am an ex pat Brit living in CA just so you know where my view point is coming from. UK industrial relations history should prove to any union strike
32 Slider: Does anyone else find it ironic that so many of the airlines that these workers are building planes for are suffering and have employees that are taki
33 Ikramerica: Every union in history has claimed that the management "bargained illegally." It's just boilerplate rhetoric. May be true, may not, but usually not.
34 XT6Wagon: Its 1/2 the reason I'm thinking the 737RS will end up having multiple assembly halls, many located in areas with major customers. I bet somewhere in
35 Stratosphere: That is spot on...Public support usually is low anyway as far as strikes go. But right now you will really find no sympathy with the current market.
36 Worldrider: 3% is the current inflation, so the " Greedy Blue Colar" is not asking wage rise, he is just asking to catch up with the rising cost of life..less th
37 NEMA: Striking workforces are always sad situations, this being a challenging industry as well with tight competition makes me think it will be over quickly
38 F9Animal: I was and I am officially on strike. But, there was that glimmer of hope still, and I know I was not the only one feeling that way. It was unfortunat
39 Pliersinsight: That is the most hysterical thing I have read on this site to date. Hence why there aren't a ton of steel mills in Pittsburgh anymore and the United
40 Francoflier: Some people are being really pessimistic about the whole thing. It's just a damn strike. Where I come from (you'll have guessed), there's one of these
41 Moo: Well, that about does it - I would be extremely impressed with Boeing if they manage to get the 787 flying this year, but I doubt it is going to happe
42 Par13del: I'll contribute a couple points based on earlier responses. 1. The auto companies. How did the unions force management to continue to produce fuel guz
43 Atlanta: How about those nice facilities at LGB? Atlanta
44 Legacytravel: Well after reading what Boenings final offer was. Bonues averaging $6500 per year, 11% pay raises and average of around $35,000 per employee for the t
45 Glideslope: The 48hr extension talks were held in Disney World, as the Union was having their Convention. What a contrast. The Union Boss screws the member then g
46 Par13del: I think this is somewhat disingenious, Boeing has done, is doing, and is being encouraged by posters on this site and elsewhere to do the same thing,
47 Jacobin777: ...they are trying to "catch up" meanwhile everyone else is falling behind (ok, maybe not everyone, but millions of others)...maybe these guys should
48 MMEPHX: $11K per year assuming the bonuses are paid...I know a few million folks that would love that deal. What are the IAM trying to achieve? Can't imagine
49 Slider: What the IAM fails to realize is that when you factor in health care, retirement and other benefits, their members are little kings. Myopic view to on
50 Moo: Take the same workers, only this time the union would be crippled and Boeing wouldn't have a guillotine over its head.
51 Par13del: Since a lot of the jobs are automated, leave the workers, hire the local talent, train them to use the equipment and the savigns and profit margin go
52 Wedgetail737: You should see all of the comments flying around in the TV station articles online. The IAM folks apparently were very angry at Boeing from the start.
53 Stitch: I'm guessing a one-month delay which means she still might get out before year end. Maybe take a note from the TU-144 and send her up for an hour on
54 Par13del: Sure means that the next product Boeing comes up with must either be some other revolution in technology or the airlines and countries deisgn and con
55 Moo: The problem is, and this is only my opinion, is that the aircraft could have been *too* perfect - the period between signing for and receiving a bran
56 Lightsaber: No worries. So is it Houston or Mobile? Lightsaber