Sndp From Belgium, joined Feb 2000, 553 posts, RR: 2 Posted (12 years 2 months 2 weeks 2 days 13 hours ago) and read 1780 times:
Sunday morning a Swiss newspaper wrote that Swissair is probably going to have a loss of 1,61 Billion Euro this year, not only due to the losses at Sabena and the French companies, but mainly because of operational losses at Swissair itself. The whole board of the company, except for one person, will quit within this and a year. A new strategy is needed, probably in cooperation with AA or BA. It is believed that one of those would take a minority stake in SR, though some fear for a hostile take over now that the market value of SR on the stock exchange market has decreased so much.
For Sabena, it is very unlikely that SAir will take an 85% majority stake, rising from the current 49,5% as they do not have the money and operational space for it. Swissair had indicated several times before that thye might drop Sabena. Current head of Sabena, Christoph Müller had a meeting with the unions yesterday in which he announced that in the worst case, which is SAir leaving Sabena and no partner is found to replace SAir, Sabena will have to cut 4000 jobs or 1 on 3 jobs. It is at this moment that the BElgian government, 50,5% stake holder in Sabena, has to take its responsibility.
Ceilidh From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR: Reply 1, posted (12 years 2 months 2 weeks 2 days 9 hours ago) and read 1419 times:
The worst case is that both companies will be liquidated. Sabena has consistently been a major lossmaker and it has so much 'baggage' that I cannot see any viable future for it. The Belgian government will simply have to swallow its pride and close it down.
Remember, under EU law, governments can no longer subsidise their airlines.
Aussie_ From Australia, joined Dec 2000, 1765 posts, RR: 5 Reply 2, posted (12 years 2 months 2 weeks 2 days 8 hours ago) and read 1405 times:
I agree, but tell me: what happens in Belgium if Sabena goes down (which would take Virgin Express and probably Citybird with it)? Other than Ryanair rubbing its hands gleeflully?
Would another airline take it over (BA, LH, AF or similar), cut loss making routes, and keep the name Sabena? Or would the name disappear?
It's just I can't see the airline just totally disappearing: it would create a huge void smack bang in the middle of Europe. No enterprising airline (such as BA, LH or AF) would let that happen.
Then there are the lucrative African routes (mmm, AF would be interested...)
But then you have the question of competition as any such takeover would inevitably raise issues (maybe except AF which barely even flies to Belgium - all Paris customers are put on the train).
The more I think, it's an opportunity for AF, but I express my personal opinion. It would be good for Skyteam too to build up it's network and weight in Europe. Anyone else have anything to say on the matter?????
As for Swissair/Crossair, I think they'll stay after selling off the 3 French airlines and Sabena. And then they'll probably join Oneworld. The other option is a merger with BA which has already been mooted by the press.
Airbuspilot From Belgium, joined Apr 2000, 416 posts, RR: 2 Reply 3, posted (12 years 2 months 2 weeks 2 days 8 hours ago) and read 1395 times:
I would not panic so fast.
AA for example has shown more interest in SN than in SR. There is clear proof that if AA gets a choice it will start a cooperation with SN first and thereafter, if it is still needed, they would allow the swiss too participate.
You can not blame them, S-AIR made the biggest loss ever, only due to managment mistakes. I for one would not invest any money anymore in them.
we all tought SN was in bad shape but S-AIR is sinking even faster.That will teach them...They tought they could set the rules and play with the big boys...
Airbuspilot From Belgium, joined Apr 2000, 416 posts, RR: 2 Reply 4, posted (12 years 2 months 2 weeks 2 days 8 hours ago) and read 1389 times:
A couple of thoughts...
1)I do not see the swiss enetering a major alliance because:
*they have nothing left to offer.No money, no expensive slots, no airport and for sure no managers...
*no way that BA will let the swiss entering in there alliance. they know that the swiss wants to play the big boss and that will not work!
2)It is true that it is time that the Belgian government takes its responsabilities. And it seems they finally are doing that a little bit: no ratification of bilatteral and european transport agreements...
By the way, if the swiss wants to cancel their agreements with SN they have to pay so much money braking their contact agreements that SN is saved
3)No more government aid is allowed?!?! AF only is profitable thanks to the favourable regime they can operate under and thanks to money comming from the state, IBERIA is still state owned and keeps on flying thanks to this support, same thing for olympic, Allitalia,...
Sndp From Belgium, joined Feb 2000, 553 posts, RR: 2 Reply 5, posted (12 years 2 months 2 weeks 2 days 8 hours ago) and read 1384 times:
I agree with the fact that the Swiss management has blaimed Sabena and its employees, both on top level and everything there under, fot the high losses. Now we can see that it is actually the Swiss management which has made a big mistake and see Swissair is in an even worse case than SN. So, please SAIR, do not blame the Belgians and certainly not our employees. We have like you to work with and we still want to do so but only if you have some respect for this airline. Because with a good management, Sabena can grow to a profitable carrier, maybe as part on an alliance. Brussels has space to grow, Sabena has improved their service to high standards, certainly on long range business class, so Sabena has a future, with or without SAir.
Saint-Exupery From Switzerland, joined Mar 2001, 47 posts, RR: 0 Reply 7, posted (12 years 2 months 2 weeks 2 days 6 hours ago) and read 1364 times:
I think Swissair would perfectly fit into a major alliance because it's still a high-quality airline (compared with Air France, Alitalia or Iberia) and it's name has still a good reputation.
The same for Crossair which is among the best europeen regional airlines.
So if Sairgroup can get rid of his french subsidarys and the new management does well, the future is bright.
Saint-Exupery From Switzerland, joined Mar 2001, 47 posts, RR: 0 Reply 13, posted (12 years 2 months 2 weeks 2 days 5 hours ago) and read 1347 times:
Avion, the question is, what has SN and SR to offer that could be interesting for AA ?
SN has a great african&european network an some north american destinations.
That's what is interesting for AA. With SR, they would get more things than they need.
MD-11 forever From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR: Reply 14, posted (12 years 2 months 2 weeks 2 days 5 hours ago) and read 1340 times:
Well it seems that some of you don't know about the facts at all. It's not true that the losses are mainly caused by Swissair itself. Fact is, that Sabena and the french affiliates are causing all the troubles. Of course the management of SAir Group is liable for the bad contacts they had (Sair Group pays the big part of the losses...), but it always takes two for such an event...
As for AA, I think they are more than happy with their partnership with Swissair. At least they have more benefits than with their "Big" Partner BA yet (anti-trust immunity ...) so I don't think that swissair is such a bad partner for them!
Saint-Exupery From Switzerland, joined Mar 2001, 47 posts, RR: 0 Reply 15, posted (12 years 2 months 2 weeks 2 days 4 hours ago) and read 1329 times:
Hello MD-11 forever
I know that most of the losses are made by Sabena and the french affiliates (some people are saying Swissair -180 mio SFr., Balair -30 mio SFr. Crossair -25 mio SFr. , frenchies -900 mio SFr., LTU
-360 mio SFr., Sabena -320 mio SFr. and Volare Group (Italy) -120 mio. SFr.)
Sairgroup with Swissair, Crossair and Balair could easy make money because the other Sairgroup companys like SRTechnic and SRRelations made tons of money.
I totally agree with you that SR is the better partner for AA. But if it get beyond, like a take-over, Sabena would be much cheaper and would exactly meet their needs.
Airbuspilot From Belgium, joined Apr 2000, 416 posts, RR: 2 Reply 18, posted (12 years 2 months 2 weeks 2 days 4 hours ago) and read 1315 times:
What has SN to offer to AA:
*A Hub which is ideal for all trans atlantic flights ,which is not saturated and has even possibilities for expansion.
*An African network which is one of the best in the world.
*A european network that can serve perfectly as a feeder for the AA longhaul network.
*A longhaul network which poses no threath to the AA network.Probably SN would loose the longhaul sector but will grow in European activity.
*SN is much cheaper to buy than the S-AIR group or Swissair.
*AA and SN have been working together for a long time. in fact 15 years ago there where allready talks going on about a cooperation.
*The Belgian government always has had a special relationship with the American government. Something that can not been said of the Swiss.
*SN is willing to be the underdog in a cooperation.AA would never accept to join in an alliance where somebody else has the rights to make decisions.I do not think the swiss are willing to be ruled over!
And by the way, SWISSAIR is a high quality airline but it does not offer more quality that SN,Lufthansa,KLM or any other major carrier!!!But off course the (German talking) SWISS think that they have the only HQ airline in the world. If they they keep on thinking like that
they will go bancrupt....TITANIC was beeing said to be unsincable also!!!!!Open your eyes guys, WWII is over!
IFF/7000 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR: Reply 22, posted (12 years 2 months 2 weeks 2 days 3 hours ago) and read 1304 times:
Today Mr Mueller said it would be possible that Sair and Sabena would divorce. This will cost a few thousands jobs within Sabena.
Why would AA, BA or LH be interested in Sabena ?
1.Brussels is very, very well located for an airline to start a second hub.In Europe only one airline (LH) out of the 13 has 2 hubs. Most American airlines have 3-4 hubs. Hub characteristics of BRU (The good ones) are geography and efficiency ( The bad ones) low local traffic base. But lots of expansion still possible.
2. Zurich is saturated, no expansion possible due to ecological restrictions and problems with the overflight of the German airspace for the app. into Zurich. Another big problem for the Swiss is the fact they're not in the EU.
3. Sabena is not in a position to have high demands, has a good Eu and Afr network. Sair (like KLM) wants to stay in charge while only BA,LH and AF are big and strong enough to survive. Just like American, Delta and United in the States.
4. Talks already started.
SR3496 From Switzerland, joined May 2000, 792 posts, RR: 22 Reply 24, posted (12 years 2 months 2 weeks 2 days 3 hours ago) and read 1305 times:
1. No, I'm not in the airline biz, your absolutely right. But I do sit in airplanes quite frequently (I mean of a normal student in CH quite a lot).
2. I know that Swissair has given much of their qualitly in the past years - SN has improved the quality. I think that the commercial I read shortly "www.most-improved-airline.com" is correct. Really, SN is equal in quality with KLM, LH or SR. In Y they are really almost the same.
3. Maybe I'm stupid, but "...although the swiss seems to think this is" is not really a intelligent statement. How many Swiss people do you know? And you throw all of them into one pot. Seems to be a little bit unfair.
4. For the AA partnership: I stated before that BRU is a very interesting airport in Europe.
5. I don't want to start a war with you, I stated this before. So I'll stop here.
6. I'm sorry. You could be right.........I overreacted. Maybe because I'm really sad what is happening to SR right now.
25 IFF/7000: Dear Avion, I can assure you a lot of airlines would like to take over SN but not the 49.5%. If they get more than 50% they can restructure as it plea
26 Avion: I tell you SAir wants to get rid of SN as soon as possible. For LH or BA more than 50% would not be a problem as the whole airline is up for sale. Nob
27 TriStar: I'm glad there are people willing to spread their intelligence and deep aviation business insight with the rest of us. Boy, some people are really ful
28 Ceilidh: The whole SAir Group is amazing. Look at the numbers posted by Saint-Exupery - not one of their airline companies made a cent; all made a cent in prof
29 Avion: Ceilidh: SR, SN, the french Airlines do only represent a small percentage of the customer base of GateGourmet, Flightlease, SR Technics and so on. Sab
30 IFF/7000: Hi Tom Avion, Same problem as SR 3496, what do you really know about aviation? Ever been in a cockpit,I mean flying.Or have you been watching Airport
31 Gaut: If SR sells SN does it mean that Swissair loses the right to flight within EU?
32 IFF/7000: Hi again Tomavion, Do you know what an IFF is? If you find out get the correct # . then we'll see what you really know/not know. Hope to see you soon,
33 Saint-Exupery: Gaut At the moment SR has no general right to flight within EU. But if it eventually goes alive, the bilateral contracts between EU and Switzerland wi
34 IFF/7000: This could take 3 to 5 more years. See you in 5 y
35 Avion: Well IFF is Identification Friend or Foe. Tom
36 Myself: Dear Avion, according to me you are one of the moderators on the Yahoo Groups Swissair-forum. But even if you aren't I am convinced that your place is
37 Airbuspilot: Well well tomavion, you do have some Buck Danny albums!!! why dont you tell us what you do in aviation? I BET IT IS NOT MUCH SO PLEASE KEEP IT FOR YOU
38 Teahan: Hey, I am the Owner of the Swissair Yahoo Group. I certainly feel that Sabena could be a great advantage to Swissair. I really don't want to repeat wh
39 Airbuspilot: Thank you Teahan. There should be more users like you on this forum. Avion, please take example!!! We had an opportunity with both carriers working to