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Official : Air France To Launch Its TGV In 2010  
User currently offlineFlySSC From United States of America, joined Aug 2003, 7412 posts, RR: 57
Posted (6 years 3 weeks 2 days 18 hours ago) and read 14833 times:

According to the French newspaper "La Parisien", Air France should announce on Sept.15th the creation of a new subsidiary (in cooperation with the Frnch company Veolia) in charge of operating Air France TGV (High Sped Train) as soon as 2010.

AF is currently negotiating with Alsthom to buy the last generation of TGV called AGV.

Those AF TGV will should be launched in the first time from Paris to London and Amsterdam and will also operate from CDG to BRU and AMS.

AF will continue to fly to LHR & AMS from CDG but with reduced frequencies and scheduled adapted to the connections waves.



33 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineFLVILLA From United Kingdom, joined Jun 2004, 394 posts, RR: 2
Reply 1, posted (6 years 3 weeks 2 days 18 hours ago) and read 14794 times:

Interesting stuff !

I wonder how the service to London will work though, doe's anybody know the platform usage at St Pancras ? I know some are East Midlands Trains and the rest are Eurostar but unless more platforms are built will there be enough space ?

I wouldn't mind some competition against Eurostar, but I wonder BA will make of this seeing as they own 10% of Eurostar.



I hope in life i can work to live, not live to work
User currently offlineFlySSC From United States of America, joined Aug 2003, 7412 posts, RR: 57
Reply 2, posted (6 years 3 weeks 2 days 18 hours ago) and read 14766 times:



Quoting FLVILLA (Reply 1):
unless more platforms are built will there be enough space ?

I guess that platforms in the Stations will be allocated just like slots are allocated at Airports


User currently offlineBrightCedars From Belgium, joined Nov 2004, 1289 posts, RR: 2
Reply 3, posted (6 years 3 weeks 2 days 18 hours ago) and read 14677 times:

Will they now offer luggage check-in or will passengers still be obliged to carry their own luggage on and off the train? As long as it stays like that, I will never use AF again for a family trip anywhere from BRU (ZYR) via CDG.


I want the European Union flag on airliners.net!
User currently offlineLH526 From Germany, joined Aug 2000, 2372 posts, RR: 14
Reply 4, posted (6 years 3 weeks 2 days 18 hours ago) and read 14642 times:
AIRLINERS.NET CREW
FORUM MODERATOR

Gare du Nord allready has ample airport feel around it.
Crowded terminus, Plattform Checkin gates and Boarding announcements



Trittst im Morgenrot daher, seh ich dich im Strahlenmeer ...
User currently offlineDivemaster08 From Cayman Islands, joined Jul 2008, 337 posts, RR: 0
Reply 5, posted (6 years 3 weeks 2 days 18 hours ago) and read 14598 times:



Quoting FLVILLA (Reply 1):
I wonder how the service to London will work though, doe's anybody know the platform usage at St Pancras ? I know some are East Midlands Trains and the rest are Eurostar but unless more platforms are built will there be enough space ?

I wouldn't mind some competition against Eurostar, but I wonder BA will make of this seeing as they own 10% of Eurostar.

I guess decent planning will be needed to just slot the trains in and out of St. Pancreas. I beleive that the Eurostar terminal is separate from the normal trains so i guess thats where the AF trains would go into.
The difference in platforms is just level really, Eurostars and TGVs have solved that with steps built in to the train and they pop out when at a low level station and stay up when the platform is level with the doors. The thing thats needs to be more concered is the gauge with the bridges in the UK. Hopefully the new high speed line from the tunnel to London.

Competition with Eurostar is going to be very good! Eurostar isnt cheap but it does compete a lot with the airlines on the London-Paris route.



My dream, is to fly, over the rainbow, so high!
User currently offlineScouseflyer From United Kingdom, joined Apr 2006, 3394 posts, RR: 9
Reply 6, posted (6 years 3 weeks 2 days 17 hours ago) and read 14422 times:



Quoting FLVILLA (Reply 1):
I wonder how the service to London will work though, doe's anybody know the platform usage at St Pancras ? I know some are East Midlands Trains and the rest are Eurostar but unless more platforms are built will there be enough space ?

I'm hoping that plenty of contingency was built into the new St Pancras Eurostar platforms as the new station only opened last year.

There are tentative discussions starting in the UK as to where a proposed HS2 high-speed rail line would go to (St Pancras to the Eurotunnel is HS1) assuming that St Pancras is the starting point and some have suggested LHR could be a stop of point of any new railway to the West or North of the UK ( http://www.greengauge21.net/assets/GG21_HS2.pdf & http://business.timesonline.co.uk/to...ctors/transport/article2982649.ece )

Interesting to see if AF are looking to have a stake in this project and running trains to St Pancras is the first stage?


User currently offlineHumberside From United Kingdom, joined Dec 2005, 4922 posts, RR: 4
Reply 7, posted (6 years 3 weeks 2 days 14 hours ago) and read 14068 times:

About time concrete plans are being drawn up for a St Pancras-CDG service. LHR and even LCY slots can be used for other flights instead (AF have a couple of LCY-CDG flights as well as their main LCY-ORY service)


Visit the Air Humberside Website and Forum
User currently offlineIkramerica From United States of America, joined May 2005, 21534 posts, RR: 59
Reply 8, posted (6 years 3 weeks 2 days 14 hours ago) and read 14029 times:



Quoting BrightCedars (Reply 3):
Will they now offer luggage check-in or will passengers still be obliged to carry their own luggage on and off the train? As long as it stays like that, I will never use AF again for a family trip anywhere from BRU (ZYR) via CDG.

I thought they checked luggage at the Brussels TGV station for AF? Don't they have the first car on the train as well for AF "flights" to CDG?

I admit I was very tired when I was transiting LAX-EWR-BRU-TGV(Nice) but I could swear I saw a set up like that at the Brussels TGV station.



Of all the things to worry about... the Wookie has no pants.
User currently offlineFlyCaledonian From United Kingdom, joined Dec 2003, 2093 posts, RR: 3
Reply 9, posted (6 years 3 weeks 2 days 14 hours ago) and read 13971 times:

What AF would have to do is secure "paths" on HS1 from the Tunnel to St Pancras. These would not just be filling the gaps between Eurostar services, but also the domestic High Speed services that are due to be launched bu Southeastern. from St Panrcras to Kent in 2009.

Additionally, the "paths" on HS1 would have to match with "paths" Air France would require through the Channel Tunnel (Against Eurostar, the Shuttle and Freight trains) and then on the French high speed network.

Gertting a platform at St Pancras will be the least of the problems for Air France!



Let's Go British Caledonian!
User currently offlineWingedMigrator From United States of America, joined Oct 2005, 2214 posts, RR: 56
Reply 10, posted (6 years 3 weeks 2 days 13 hours ago) and read 13830 times:



Quoting FlySSC (Thread starter):
Those AF TGV will should be launched in the first time from Paris to London

That sounds unusual... is the AGV engineered with the requisite redundancy and fire protection systems for operating through the channel tunnel?


User currently offlineAlasdair1982 From UK - Scotland, joined Mar 2008, 468 posts, RR: 0
Reply 11, posted (6 years 3 weeks 2 days 11 hours ago) and read 13552 times:

Found this news story from July

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/business/7489483.stm


User currently offlineCrimsonNL From Netherlands, joined Dec 2007, 1881 posts, RR: 42
Reply 12, posted (6 years 3 weeks 2 days 8 hours ago) and read 12374 times:
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CHAT OPERATOR

Interesting, the trains here can only travel max 140KMH, and our national railways are experimenting with what THEY call High Speed Trains, 160KMH.... This goes for the Thalys from Paris to AMS as well.


Nothing's worse then flying the same registration twice, except flying it 4 times..
User currently offlineJRadier From Netherlands, joined Sep 2004, 4702 posts, RR: 50
Reply 13, posted (6 years 3 weeks 2 days 8 hours ago) and read 12203 times:

Quoting CrimsonNL (Reply 12):
This goes for the Thalys from Paris to AMS as well.

Incorrect. As soon as the 'HSL-Zuid' (highspeed line - south) opens Thalys will run on this track which is designed for 300km/h. More info on http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HSL-Zuid (and the dutch version).

[Edited 2008-09-08 14:48:10]


For once you have tasted flight you will walk the earth with your eyes turned skywards, for there you have been and ther
User currently offlineCometOrbit From United Kingdom, joined May 2008, 13 posts, RR: 0
Reply 14, posted (6 years 3 weeks 2 days 7 hours ago) and read 11788 times:

There is NO CHANCE that AF can operate the new AGV to London in 2010.
To pass through the Channel Tunnel, trains must pass unique fire and safety rules. The only trains that qualify today are Eurostar sets, and all of these are already owned by SNCF, SNCB or Eurostar UK (though not all are needed in service, and some are deployed on SNCF domestic services).
AGV's would have to be adapted and approved by the tunnel authorities.
They will also need to be adapted to domestic UK rail standards for the last short section off the high-speed line into St Pancras (signalling, catenary etc) and approved by Network Rail.
Reaching any other destination in the UK would demand "downsizing" the trains to fit the UK rail guage, just like Eurostars were adapted from the original TGV design.
Reaching LHR is impossible anyway without major infrastructure changes across London.
All this is feasible (at a cost), but not in 2 years!
The best that can happen for 2010 is that AF/Veolia would lease spare Eurostars and rebrand them, but I can't see SNCF being very happy about that.
Richard


User currently offlineTGV From France, joined Dec 2004, 874 posts, RR: 20
Reply 15, posted (6 years 3 weeks 2 days 4 hours ago) and read 10888 times:



Quoting FLVILLA (Reply 1):
I wonder how the service to London will work though, doe's anybody know the platform usage at St Pancras ? I know some are East Midlands Trains and the rest are Eurostar but unless more platforms are built will there be enough space ?

In St Pancras Eurostar platforms are separated from domestic train platforms (Middlands Main Line, and the upcoming domestic services to Kent, using the High Speed line, but with a maximum operating speed of only 230 km/h).

For the International services there are 6 Eurostar platforms, in an international area that you access going through immigration (the UK is not part of Schengen) and airport like security checks.

Presently there are 16/18 return services to Paris and 10 to Brussels, so there is available space, with 6 platforms.

Quoting FlySSC (Reply 2):
I guess that platforms in the Stations will be allocated just like slots are allocated at Airports

You are right, but on a railway, as mentioned by FlyCaledonian above, the slot is from departure to arrival, and this is complex.

To go from London to Paris you need to get a slot (a path in railway language) on the CTRL/HS1 line (as mentioned you share the line with the Domestic services to Kent), then in the Channel Tunnel, then in France (here you share the line with the French domestic services, plus Thalys trains to Belgium, the Netherlands and Germany).

For those interested the capacity allocation process in the UK is described in the linked document, section 4.

Now the problem of having available trainsets adapted to the very specific constraints of the Channel Tunnel crossing remain.

It may be easier to start services between CDG and AMS, as "normal" trainsets can be used.



Avoid 777 with 3-4-3 config in Y ! They are real sardine cans. (AF/KL for example)
User currently offlineElmoTheHobo From United States of America, joined Aug 2006, 1544 posts, RR: 1
Reply 16, posted (6 years 3 weeks 2 days 4 hours ago) and read 10883 times:



Quoting CometOrbit (Reply 14):
Reaching any other destination in the UK would demand "downsizing" the trains to fit the UK rail guage, just like Eurostars were adapted from the original TGV design.

Not to nitpick, but the UK and France have the same gauge, it's train clearance they'd need to get straightened out. Buying or leasing some of the unused Eurostar trainsets gets around that problem real easy, as they are already built to the UK's "unique" operating conditions, including third rail power and platform clearance.

Quoting CometOrbit (Reply 14):
The best that can happen for 2010 is that AF/Veolia would lease spare Eurostars and rebrand them, but I can't see SNCF being very happy about that.

I could see the SNCF being happy, as it'll mean that they can spread the spiraling costs of operating the Chunnel (well not the SNCF, but their stake in Eurotunnel).

Quoting WingedMigrator (Reply 10):
That sounds unusual... is the AGV engineered with the requisite redundancy and fire protection systems for operating through the channel tunnel?

The AGV isn't built to Chunnel standards, not to mention that the UK rail network (even St. Pancras or Waterloo IIRC) isn't built to handle Continental European train size, only the track gauge. Operating underground on such long distances requires long fire suppression capabilities (like ETOPS for trains). A fire in the middle of the tunnel is something like 18 miles from the nearest fire station (be it on the French or English side).


User currently offlineWingedMigrator From United States of America, joined Oct 2005, 2214 posts, RR: 56
Reply 17, posted (6 years 3 weeks 1 day 23 hours ago) and read 9911 times:



Quoting ElmoTheHobo (Reply 16):
Not to nitpick, but the UK and France have the same gauge, it's train clearance they'd need to get straightened out.

He's probably talking about loading gauge, not track gauge. The Eurostars are quite a bit narrower than continental high speed trains, especially in the lower bits

Quoting ElmoTheHobo (Reply 16):
The AGV isn't built to Chunnel standards

Air France can forget London, then! And it's not just fire protection, but systems redundancy. A Eurostar set can be split in three different ways to continue on its way in an emergency. An AGV cannot, being fully articulated from one end to the other.

Quoting ElmoTheHobo (Reply 16):
ETOPS for trains

 checkmark  That's a very a propos way of thinking about it.


User currently offlineRJ111 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 18, posted (6 years 3 weeks 1 day 21 hours ago) and read 9380 times:

Quoting ElmoTheHobo (Reply 16):
The AGV isn't built to Chunnel standards, not to mention that the UK rail network (even St. Pancras or Waterloo IIRC) isn't built to handle Continental European train size, only the track gauge.

It certainly is. The Channel Tunnel link is built to a (Continental) UIC B+ Loading gauge. It's even built to UIC C up to Stratford.

[Edited 2008-09-09 01:55:44]

User currently offlineDocLightning From United States of America, joined Nov 2005, 19786 posts, RR: 59
Reply 19, posted (6 years 3 weeks 1 day 21 hours ago) and read 9343 times:

I'm telling you, for heavily-congested routes under 500 nm, nothing beats a high-speed train.

User currently offlineTayser From Australia, joined Mar 2008, 1131 posts, RR: 0
Reply 20, posted (6 years 3 weeks 1 day 20 hours ago) and read 9171 times:

Paths on LGVs typically have 3-4 minute headways for trains travelling at 300kph (trains are roughly 15km apart - takes 7-8km to slow a train down from those speeds in an emergency) - I doubt it's going to be a problem on HS1, the Chunnel or even on LGV Nord-Europe.

User currently offlineBwest From Belgium, joined Jul 2006, 1370 posts, RR: 4
Reply 21, posted (6 years 3 weeks 1 day 15 hours ago) and read 8577 times:



Quoting Ikramerica (Reply 8):

I thought they checked luggage at the Brussels TGV station for AF? Don't they have the first car on the train as well for AF "flights" to CDG?

I admit I was very tired when I was transiting LAX-EWR-BRU-TGV(Nice) but I could swear I saw a set up like that at the Brussels TGV station.

I had a look on the Air France website... it states that luggage handlers will load your luggage on the train in Brussel Zuid, but offload it and give it back to you upon arrival in CDG...

Pff, don't like that, I'll be doing that trip quite soon, I was hoping to be able to check in my luggage in Brussels already... such a drag.  Sad



I love my Airport Job! :)
User currently offlineTravellin'man From United States of America, joined May 2001, 530 posts, RR: 0
Reply 22, posted (6 years 3 weeks 1 day 13 hours ago) and read 8443 times:

It sounds like this is meant to replace some capacity as much as supplement it. Interesting to think of airlines as becoming transport entities in a larger sense.

How much of this is tied to environmentally related responses, ie concerns about global warming?

Also, are European governments, who i can see being concerned about the trains' reduced competitiveness in the face of low airfares, giving airlines incentives to make these sorts of moves?

I wonder how this helps set an example for California high speed rail, for example, even symbolically.



It is not enough to be rude; one must also be incorrect.
User currently offlineBabybus From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 23, posted (6 years 3 weeks 17 hours ago) and read 8153 times:



Quoting Scouseflyer (Reply 6):
I'm hoping that plenty of contingency was built into the new St Pancras Eurostar platforms as the new station only opened last year.

It's the UK. I doubt it very much. We've probably run out of platforms already.  Wink

Quoting CometOrbit (Reply 14):
Reaching LHR is impossible anyway without major infrastructure changes across London.

It's about time London looked into a fast east London to LHR connection system.


User currently offlineMMEPHX From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 24, posted (6 years 3 weeks 17 hours ago) and read 8114 times:



Quoting Babybus (Reply 23):
It's about time London looked into a fast east London to LHR connection system.

or even better, make LHR a transport hub that meant you could actually get a train to somewhere else in the UK without having to schlep into central London.

As the UK is I don't know how many decades behind the French in HS rail then I suspect we'll have to wait another couple of decades before seeing anything similar to this AF deal.

This looks like a winner all round, overall journey time is probably very similar and it frees up space at CDG etc. to either improve on time performance (why do i think this option is unlikely?) or to add flights to more distant destinations where the train isn't feasible. (why do I think this option is likely?)


25 Post contains links Signol : http://www.crossrail.co.uk/ signol
26 Scipio : The baggage issue is the main weakness of AF's offerings to and from Brussels. If you're only carrying hand luggage, then you'll be fine with AF. If
27 FlySSC : Checking in luggages all the way to the final destination from Brussel Zuid is simply not possible for security reasons as the checked in bags can no
28 AirbusA6 : There's nothing to stop the existing Eurostar operator from operating to CDG (the occasional Eurostar operates to Ski reports and Avignon) so i presum
29 Jouy31 : The number of flights between CDG and LHR has already gone down from 12 to 7. How much lower can you go ?
30 A350 : WOW, that means that CDG is London's long awaited 6th airport! When AF uses the train as feeder its travel time will be only slightly higher than that
31 ZRH : It is the same in aviation, at least in the dense European airspace. You don't only have a slot for the departing and the arriving airports but for t
32 RJ111 : To be honest if you want to get to Central London it's going to take you at least an hour on public transport from Heathrow. This way it's only an ad
33 TGV : You would need to modify the CDG train station to enable security checks to be performed for Eurostar passengers (required for Channel Tunnel Crossin
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