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AZ Unions Decline First Contract Offer  
User currently offlineBeaucaire From Syria, joined Sep 2003, 5252 posts, RR: 25
Posted (6 years 3 months 2 weeks 1 day 4 hours ago) and read 5327 times:

How come I'm not really surprised !
The day somebody shows me an Italian trade-unionist with at least fractional economic neurones-give me a call..

http://www.finanznachrichten.de/nach...chten-2008-09/artikel-11701479.asp


Please respect animals - don't eat them...
30 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineBrightCedars From Belgium, joined Nov 2004, 1290 posts, RR: 2
Reply 1, posted (6 years 3 months 2 weeks 1 day 4 hours ago) and read 5268 times:

They'll end up having to learn the hard way and it will be a bloodbath. Arrivederci Alitalia!


I want the European Union flag on airliners.net!
User currently offlineLufthansa From Christmas Island, joined May 1999, 3224 posts, RR: 10
Reply 2, posted (6 years 3 months 2 weeks 1 day 4 hours ago) and read 5200 times:

I mean there's NOTHING left to negotiate. Refusing just because you don't like it won't help... its this or nothing now.

They could just end up starving AZ of cash, and air one will be able to buy its best assests at bargin prices anyway, and if those staff want a job at all, they will have zero choice then but to accept what Air One wants...or go to the likes of Ryanair.

Italy has produced some great people, who've helped shape western culture, values and systems. Surely there's somebody in there that can see this isn't smart?


User currently offlineNycfly75 From Italy, joined Aug 2005, 766 posts, RR: 9
Reply 3, posted (6 years 3 months 2 weeks 1 day 3 hours ago) and read 4988 times:

This is typical Day 1 Negotiation BS. Trust me the unions have little wiggle room, if they wont negotiate in good faith, they will be pinned into a corner and forced to accept whatever comes their way. The new entity is getting AZ no matter what, so its best for the unions to play at the least fair. The government will mediate, and all this is going to go to the end of the month, I dont see them getting this done in the next week. The old Alitalia can only survive until November 1, which is the day CAI will take over.

User currently offlinePRAirbus From Puerto Rico, joined Apr 2005, 1144 posts, RR: 1
Reply 4, posted (6 years 3 months 2 weeks 1 day 2 hours ago) and read 4806 times:

Let them SINK...they are stubborn, arrogant and blind. No wonder AZ was behind LH, AF/KL, BA in terms of service, fleet and automation. This is not surprising it was written on the wall. What will happen now? Hopefully AA will start MIA-Italy soon (MXP or FCO seasonal).

User currently offlineNycfly75 From Italy, joined Aug 2005, 766 posts, RR: 9
Reply 5, posted (6 years 3 months 2 weeks 1 day 2 hours ago) and read 4743 times:

The responses on here border on childish sometimes, this is a serious transaction and there are many factors involved. Bottom line is the deal is moving ahead with or without the unions. The new holding company is open to meeting the unions on some things, but isnt going to pander to them or run away if the unions leaders act like primadonnas and dont like what they see, like AF did. Like I said bottom line is this deal is going forward for November 1.

User currently offlineBanjo76 From Italy, joined Apr 2008, 189 posts, RR: 0
Reply 6, posted (6 years 3 months 2 weeks 1 day 1 hour ago) and read 4464 times:



Quoting Nycfly75 (Reply 7):
The responses on here border on childish sometimes, this is a serious transaction and there are many factors involved. Bottom line is the deal is moving ahead with or without the unions. The new holding company is open to meeting the unions on some things, but isnt going to pander to them or run away if the unions leaders act like primadonnas and dont like what they see, like AF did. Like I said bottom line is this deal is going forward for November 1.

I totally agree with your post Nyc, but remeber that last option is always there.
Drop the deal and ask for further support by the government.
Though elections are far away, so there is no interest in making the unions happy to trade votes, so eventually unions will probably have to accept the lesser of what they consider two evils.
Would not elections have been so close at the time, today we would have AF-KL-AZ.
Would elections be close today, the deal woul be dropped for decision to be taken after the vote. Someting that we saw already.

Banjo


User currently offlineNycfly75 From Italy, joined Aug 2005, 766 posts, RR: 9
Reply 7, posted (6 years 3 months 2 weeks 1 day ago) and read 4319 times:

Yes, anyone who thought those unions would accept a contract after a first read is delusional. I have hardly ever seen a first presentation of a contract without a hardened stance from both sides, especially unions. And in Italy, its not surprising these union are being all dramatic. They dont have a great bargaining position and they are doing what they can to get some attention. At the end of the day, no one is going to allow 20,000 layoffs. Its time for serious talks and some negotiation/mediation to get the deal done. I dont think it will be done for Thursday though, it might go til next week or even end of month.

User currently offlineFlyDreamliner From United States of America, joined Jan 2006, 2759 posts, RR: 15
Reply 8, posted (6 years 3 months 2 weeks 1 day ago) and read 4300 times:

At this point does it really matter much if the unions like it or not. As I see it, 3 possibilities, listed in descending likelihood, 1- the unions fold, accept the new plan, life moves on. 2- the unions fight like hell, new management either pushes them hard enough that they fold or marginalizes them, very painful things eventually move forward, albeit less happily than in scenario 1, or 3- the unions manage to get enough traction to create a protracted struggled, due to EU rules and the airline folds, and then REALLY goes into re-organization, and everyone loses.


"Let the world change you, and you can change the world"
User currently offlineAirbazar From United States of America, joined Sep 2003, 8658 posts, RR: 10
Reply 9, posted (6 years 3 months 2 weeks 23 hours ago) and read 4124 times:



Quoting Nycfly75 (Reply 11):
At the end of the day, no one is going to allow 20,000 layoffs.

Why not? What's another 20,000 next to a 7% unemployment rate? And it's not like they would all be unemployed for long. Most likely the elimination of AZ would boost other carriers which in turn would hire some of these people.


User currently offline1stfl94 From United Kingdom, joined May 2006, 1455 posts, RR: 0
Reply 10, posted (6 years 3 months 2 weeks 22 hours ago) and read 3990 times:

If they last past Winter I will be very impressed. Unfortunately the Italian Unions will never see past the very short term and those who will suffer most will be the everyday employees of Alitalia.

User currently offlineNycfly75 From Italy, joined Aug 2005, 766 posts, RR: 9
Reply 11, posted (6 years 3 months 2 weeks 21 hours ago) and read 3642 times:



Quoting Airbazar (Reply 12):

The first day? How many offers have been declined by the Union by now? I've lost count.

Today was the first day of contract review for the new ownership on the current deal. Im not saying hte unions are right, what Im saying is that this process is nto at a closed and because there was typical posturing today doesn't mean it will end up negatively and like I said CAI is buying AZ with or without Union support.


User currently offlineL410Turbolet From Czech Republic, joined May 2004, 5743 posts, RR: 19
Reply 12, posted (6 years 3 months 2 weeks 21 hours ago) and read 3634 times:



Quoting Nycfly75 (Reply 12):
The problem though is not with 95% of the rank and file union employees, its the leadership that has a huge ego and the militant 5% of the rank and file

Well it's a chicken and egg situation. There wouldn't be any out-of-touch-with-reality, all-or-nothing union bosses if it wasn't for the 95% of the "silent majority" behind them on whose behalf they speak.

Quoting Nycfly75 (Reply 12):
anyone who didnt think the unions wouldnt put up a fuss after the first day at the contract table and agree to a contract immediately clearly doesn't have a handle on the art of labor negotiation, especially in this case.

I'm sure e.g. Boeing unions can practice their art of labor negotiation almost until they reach pefection. The company can afford that luxury... at least for a certain time. Whether the same gamble can be done in the case of a company where the time is running out (and running out fast) is a question.


User currently offlineSlider From United States of America, joined Feb 2004, 6924 posts, RR: 34
Reply 13, posted (6 years 3 months 2 weeks 21 hours ago) and read 3621 times:



Quoting Nycfly75 (Reply 5):
The responses on here border on childish sometimes, this is a serious transaction and there are many factors involved.

I never thought I'd say this, but I would argue that the never-ending AZ drama has been handled with more maturity and understanding on Anet than the stakeholders themselves.


User currently offlinePlanenutz From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 14, posted (6 years 3 months 2 weeks 21 hours ago) and read 3611 times:

Its rare that the Alitalia drama would make the mainstream media here in the USA. But this morning it did, on National Public Radio.

Listen here:

http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=94377269

The story says that if the unions don;t capitulate, Alitalia will go into liquidation within weeks.

It also mentions that the unions really shot themsselves in the foot by turning doen the Air France-KLM deal which would have seen "only" 2,500 lay-offs. According to the new "Phoenix" plan, at least 7,500 face redundancy.


User currently offlineAircraftGeek From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 15, posted (6 years 3 months 2 weeks 21 hours ago) and read 3600 times:

I wish there was even a slight possibility for Alitalia to go bankruptcy right now and die forever without any support from the government. All this unionized bloodsuckers killed Alitalia 15-20 years ago already and we (the taxpayers) are still gifting the company for the great work done...  Yeah sure

Go alitalia, go!


User currently offlineL410Turbolet From Czech Republic, joined May 2004, 5743 posts, RR: 19
Reply 16, posted (6 years 3 months 2 weeks 21 hours ago) and read 3573 times:

Here's my personal, semi-related question worth about 550 EUR: I have a PRG-FCO-JFK/JFK-FCO-MXP-PRG ticket with AZ for Nov. 13-23.
Should I already get into panic mode?


User currently offline413X3 From United States of America, joined Jul 2008, 1983 posts, RR: 0
Reply 17, posted (6 years 3 months 2 weeks 21 hours ago) and read 3524 times:

I've never met so many more anti-union teenagers and 20-something year olds than I have on this website, besides maybe visiting an NRA or Republican message board. Yikes. Most always grew up with the silver spoon so what do they care about the plight of anyone but their pocketbooks

User currently offlineDangould2000 From UK - Scotland, joined Dec 2005, 172 posts, RR: 0
Reply 18, posted (6 years 3 months 2 weeks 20 hours ago) and read 3468 times:

I really don't know why AZ management put up with this union rubbish, in the end it will kill AZ.


I think that AZ should have the same attitude as FR (in a way):
"You work for Us on OUR terms and OUR pay, If you don't like like it then P**S off, there's plenty of people that can take your place"

I'm sure there's lots of unemployed pilots and cabin crew that would gladly take their place (ex-futura, ex-zoom, ex-silverjet, etc)

I'm sure it wouldn't be the worst thing in the world if AZ suddenly sacked their ENTIRE workforce, stopped flying for 5-6 weeks while they retrained or re-contracted crew. perhaps even if AZ started sacking some of the workforce, then maybe the rest would wake up and smell the coffee.  coffee 

[Edited 2008-09-08 12:11:23]


Next Flights:- wherever the airline sends me
User currently offline413X3 From United States of America, joined Jul 2008, 1983 posts, RR: 0
Reply 19, posted (6 years 3 months 2 weeks 20 hours ago) and read 3452 times:

typical elitist attitude. everyone works to service you

User currently offlineARGIEPILOT From United Kingdom, joined Aug 2006, 58 posts, RR: 0
Reply 20, posted (6 years 3 months 2 weeks 20 hours ago) and read 3426 times:



Quoting 413X3 (Reply 18):
I've never met so many more anti-union teenagers and 20-something year olds than I have on this website, besides maybe visiting an NRA or Republican message board. Yikes. Most always grew up with the silver spoon so what do they care about the plight of anyone but their pocketbooks

Well said. What it is most surprising though is not the vigorous anti-union attitude -which in some cases could be discussed-, but an over simplistic analysis of matters that disregards every factor besides the "inspired" "we need to cut costs" way of thinking. Many opinions simply disregard the social, geopolitical, political, strategic, and other factors involved in a situation like this. It could also be as you said that many have never lived a situation where their jobs and family income where at stake. Specially in the airline industry in which it's quite hard to relocate and in which some workers have skills that are not transferable. The matter goes well beyond "let them sink".


User currently offlineBennett123 From United Kingdom, joined Aug 2004, 7809 posts, RR: 3
Reply 21, posted (6 years 3 months 2 weeks 19 hours ago) and read 3165 times:

I hear what you are saying, but I think that AZ is fast running out of options.

IMO AFKL were smart to make a deal conditional on staff support. They could have bought AZ and then found a millstone arround their necks.

David


User currently offlineArt From United Kingdom, joined Feb 2005, 3398 posts, RR: 1
Reply 22, posted (6 years 3 months 2 weeks 18 hours ago) and read 2914 times:



Quoting Banjo76 (Reply 7):

I totally agree with your post Nyc, but remeber that last option is always there.
Drop the deal and ask for further support by the government.

Recent "support" was illegal IMO. Same for future "support".

Quoting Planenutz (Reply 15):
It also mentions that the unions really shot themsselves in the foot by turning doen the Air France-KLM deal which would have seen "only" 2,500 lay-offs. According to the new "Phoenix" plan, at least 7,500 face redundancy.

They blew their best chance. I blame them and the absurd chauvinism of Berlusconi.

Quoting 413X3 (Reply 18):
I've never met so many more anti-union teenagers and 20-something year olds than I have on this website, besides maybe visiting an NRA or Republican message board. Yikes. Most always grew up with the silver spoon so what do they care about the plight of anyone but their pocketbooks

If you think that condemning madness is per se indicative of being privileged or right wing, you are wrong.

Quoting ARGIEPILOT (Reply 21):
Many opinions simply disregard the social, geopolitical, political, strategic, and other factors involved in a situation like this.

The social, geopolitical, political, strategic, and other factors involved in a situation like this cease to be of any importance when the company concerned is on the verge of ceasing to exist. What are the social, geopolitical, political, strategic, and other factors involved in nothing?


User currently offlineMillwallSean From Singapore, joined Apr 2008, 1295 posts, RR: 6
Reply 23, posted (6 years 3 months 2 weeks 17 hours ago) and read 2881 times:

No Alitalia is not running out of options fast. All parties are involved in a negotiation are aware of timeline and knows that this week they will rattle sabres and be as dramatic as possible.

Some of the people from the Anglosaxon world dont understand the way unions and management work in Europe and some other parts of the world. its not we against them and if they dont like it move on that applies. That attitude might work in an anglosaxon environment but it will not work in Europe.

I do realise that failure is not an option here. This deal will be done and it will be done in the last minute as after all we are talking about Italy.

20.000 unemployed persons is not an option, the union knows that, the government knows that and even the buying partners knows that. Only here on Anet are foreigners disputing it.

At the moment Air France should be happy, if they get their hands on 20% plus the rumoured option to be majority owners after 5 years they will aquire Alitalia cheap and without all the deadwood they offered to take on last time round.



No One Likes Us - We Dont Care.
User currently offlineBanjo76 From Italy, joined Apr 2008, 189 posts, RR: 0
Reply 24, posted (6 years 3 months 2 weeks 17 hours ago) and read 2836 times:



Quoting Art (Reply 23):
Recent "support" was illegal IMO. Same for future "support".

Art, I totally agree, but we saw what happened, a full bunch of €€€ was given and entered in the capital of the company. I don't see how, with elections approching that would not happen again just to avoid the company collapsing.
So future "support" would probably be against EU law, but cashed anyhow.

Quoting Planenutz (Reply 15):
It also mentions that the unions really shot themsselves in the foot by turning doen the Air France-KLM deal which would have seen "only" 2,500 lay-offs. According to the new "Phoenix" plan, at least 7,500 face redundancy.

That is really what drives me mad. And Italian press is not mentioning that at all.

I want to summarize the two offers

The main arguments against AF were:
- AZ being rescaled to a regional carrier, basically a feeder for AF (and we saw what happened with KL)
- AZ losing its national "identity" (what the hell it means, and even if it means something... who cares?), and AF granted that the brand was to stay and we all saw what happened to KL
- Many layoffs being redirected to Finmeccanica putting a future burden on tax payers.
- MXP rescaled, operations reduced. Not good for the high yield northern market (which I belong to), which BTW is currently not using AZ.


CAI offer:
- 7500 layoffs, many of which being redirected to Poste, to Agenzia delle Entrate and many other governmental agencies (worse condition)
- 300 M € offered for the shares only for the "good" assets, IIRC AF offered more for both good and bad.
- Non profitable assets being put into the bad company that will file for the Italian version of Chapter 11. Not for us to know how it will go to profitability if ever. Huge burden on tax payers.
- FCO rescaled, operations reduced (I don't see the difference in term of job losses with MXP being reduced).

And most important of all, something that I haven't seen mensioned here:
how on earth can you even think to put an industrial plan into effect without knowing in which alliance you'll end being in??
In my view the network you'll try to build, and on which you'll try to make profits on is more than heavily dependent on that. With AF offer alliance plans were just a bit clearer.

I think that with the company made gift to the usual names (Colaninno, Tronchetti Provera) this operation is just a favour from our government (see Telecom privatization) to give those Italian investors the chance to make big money quickly, I never see the user mentioned as the focus of this whole thing.

After this rant, well unions have really no other choice BTW, and I hope they will accept the plan. Let's give it a try, bankrupcy is round the corner (and the block is very small).


Banjo


25 Nycfly75 : Under the current situation old AZ is OK until the end of October I think, with this month being its last "stable" one under current conditions. Fina
26 CastropRauxel : Well said AZ forgetting that this is exactly why this is definitely not the time to play it hard to get. a smarter union would negotiate instead of d
27 Nycfly75 : Good news, some of the larger unions are prepared to sign, and the pilots, flight attendants, etc will have their own negotiating table. The governmen
28 PanHAM : I should have bet a fortune on that the unions will refuse to take on any economic wisdom. It's a service industry, even manufacturing today is a serv
29 Post contains links Beaucaire : Finally the government gets tough.. A deadline until tomorrow to accept the restructuring plan-if not-the government will start firing staff.. http://
30 L410Turbolet : ... rejection of the plan means almost inevitably some massive, paralysing strike. I doubt unions' ability to be realistic. Are they really willing t
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