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AZ Out Of Funds To Buy Fuel?  
User currently offlineMMEPHX From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Posted (5 years 11 months 3 weeks 16 hours ago) and read 18629 times:

BBC reporting AZ could have to ground flights after tomorrow due to lack of funds to buy fuel

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/7614336.stm

[Edited 2008-09-13 07:15:28]

88 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineJanmnastami From Italy, joined Apr 2008, 828 posts, RR: 0
Reply 1, posted (5 years 11 months 3 weeks 16 hours ago) and read 18594 times:

There's already this thread:

http://www.airliners.net/aviation-fo...eneral_aviation/read.main/4141898/


User currently offlineMMEPHX From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 2, posted (5 years 11 months 3 weeks 16 hours ago) and read 18539 times:



Quoting Janmnastami (Reply 1):
There's already this thread:

http://www.airliners.net/aviation-fo...eneral_aviation/read.main/4141898/

I saw the thread, at the time I posted it didn't mention the fuel situation. I considered this a significant development to have its own thread. Up to the mods if they want to delete this one.


User currently offlineSeansasLCY From Hong Kong, joined Mar 2007, 858 posts, RR: 0
Reply 3, posted (5 years 11 months 3 weeks 16 hours ago) and read 18490 times:

I doubt it. Alitalia is some kind of super airline it will never die.

User currently offlineLH526 From Germany, joined Aug 2000, 2360 posts, RR: 14
Reply 4, posted (5 years 11 months 3 weeks 16 hours ago) and read 18430 times:
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FORUM MODERATOR



Quoting SeansasLCY (Reply 3):
I doubt it. Alitalia is some kind of super airline it will never die.

So were Sabena and PanAm.
Nuff said!



Trittst im Morgenrot daher, seh ich dich im Strahlenmeer ...
User currently offlineAAmd11 From UK - Wales, joined Nov 2001, 1059 posts, RR: 1
Reply 5, posted (5 years 11 months 3 weeks 16 hours ago) and read 18429 times:

It's looking ominous.

Still, one does wonder how they'll escape the jaws of death this time.


User currently offlineTonystan From Ireland, joined Jan 2006, 1427 posts, RR: 2
Reply 6, posted (5 years 11 months 3 weeks 15 hours ago) and read 18324 times:

You must also remember that this announcement was made by AZ management, it could be a bluff to force the unions into accepting the new proposals!


My views are my own and do not reflect any other person or organisation.
User currently offlineKiwiandrew From New Zealand, joined Jun 2005, 8552 posts, RR: 13
Reply 7, posted (5 years 11 months 3 weeks 15 hours ago) and read 18275 times:
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Quoting Tonystan (Reply 6):
You must also remember that this announcement was made by AZ management, it could be a bluff to force the unions into accepting the new proposals!

do you really think that they would bluff about something like this - let's face it , this announcement will scare off any remaining pax thinking of making a new booking with AZ - the fact that they are desparate enough to make this announcement shows how close to total shutdown they are - it is only a matter of time now until someone somewhere in the world becomes the first to refuse to service/clean/refuel an AZ aircraft without payment up front - within a few minutes of that being announced it will all be over



Moderation in all things ... including moderation ;-)
User currently offlineJanmnastami From Italy, joined Apr 2008, 828 posts, RR: 0
Reply 8, posted (5 years 11 months 3 weeks 15 hours ago) and read 18201 times:



Quoting Kiwiandrew (Reply 7):
until someone somewhere in the world becomes the first to refuse to service/clean/refuel an AZ aircraft without payment up front

This is already happened.


User currently offlineFlySSC From United States of America, joined Aug 2003, 7411 posts, RR: 57
Reply 9, posted (5 years 11 months 3 weeks 15 hours ago) and read 18160 times:



Quoting MMEPHX (Thread starter):
due to lack of funds

So What ? Anything new ? They've been out of money for years now ! any other "normal" airline in a "normal" country in the same situation as AZ would be out of business for a long time ...

Same thing apply for OA ...


User currently offlineSeansasLCY From Hong Kong, joined Mar 2007, 858 posts, RR: 0
Reply 10, posted (5 years 11 months 3 weeks 15 hours ago) and read 18163 times:



Quoting LH526 (Reply 4):
Quoting SeansasLCY (Reply 3):
I doubt it. Alitalia is some kind of super airline it will never die.

So were Sabena and PanAm.
Nuff said!

I wasn't talking about brand or image wise. I was talking about how long Alitalia have been losing money yet still managed to survive. For as long as i can remember Alitalia have been on the verge of bankrupcy or colapse.


User currently offlineTonystan From Ireland, joined Jan 2006, 1427 posts, RR: 2
Reply 11, posted (5 years 11 months 3 weeks 15 hours ago) and read 18056 times:



Quoting Kiwiandrew (Reply 7):

do you really think that they would bluff about something like this - let's face it , this announcement will scare off any remaining pax thinking of making a new booking with AZ - the fact that they are desparate enough to make this announcement shows how close to total shutdown they are - it is only a matter of time now until someone somewhere in the world becomes the first to refuse to service/clean/refuel an AZ aircraft without payment up front - within a few minutes of that being announced it will all be over

Well as a former employee of a major Irish airline I have already seen it happen!



My views are my own and do not reflect any other person or organisation.
User currently offlineKiwiandrew From New Zealand, joined Jun 2005, 8552 posts, RR: 13
Reply 12, posted (5 years 11 months 3 weeks 15 hours ago) and read 18029 times:
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Quoting Janmnastami (Reply 8):


Quoting Kiwiandrew (Reply 7):
until someone somewhere in the world becomes the first to refuse to service/clean/refuel an AZ aircraft without payment up front

This is already happened.

where ? I could certainly understand that companies would no longer offer AZ any form of credit - but up till now I was not aware that they were being forced to pay up front for services



Moderation in all things ... including moderation ;-)
User currently offlineVV701 From United Kingdom, joined Aug 2005, 7475 posts, RR: 17
Reply 13, posted (5 years 11 months 3 weeks 15 hours ago) and read 18031 times:



Quoting FlySSC (Reply 9):
So What ? Anything new ?

Yes. Something very new. Augusto Fantozzi, Alitalia's bankruptcy administrator, has stated publicly that beyond Sunday AZ will not be able to pay for any fuel. So which fuel supplier will supply them knowing that the company's bankruptcy administrator has said they will not be paid? And how can they fly without fuel? And if AZ are grounded on Monday . . . Well that is new!

BUT we will have to wait and see. The rescue plan is called "Phoenix" and some angel may turn up with the cash needed. But I doubt it after what Fantozzi has said.


User currently offlineLipeGIG From Brazil, joined May 2005, 11436 posts, RR: 58
Reply 14, posted (5 years 11 months 3 weeks 14 hours ago) and read 17765 times:
AIRLINERS.NET CREW
FORUM MODERATOR



Quoting LH526 (Reply 4):
So were Sabena and PanAm.
Nuff said!

And some others legacy that stays in the past now.

Quoting Kiwiandrew (Reply 7):
do you really think that they would bluff about something like this - let's face it , this announcement will scare off any remaining pax thinking of making a new booking with AZ - the fact that they are desparate enough to make this announcement shows how close to total shutdown they are

Even if they manage to get some extra cash, as you explained this announcement will scare many pax and their revenue will be reduced in the near future. At this point, unless something huge in terms of cash and changes happen, there will be no future at all.



New York + Rio de Janeiro = One of the best combinations !
User currently offlineKL577 From Netherlands, joined Oct 2006, 775 posts, RR: 0
Reply 15, posted (5 years 11 months 3 weeks 14 hours ago) and read 17605 times:



Quoting LipeGIG (Reply 14):
Even if they manage to get some extra cash, as you explained this announcement will scare many pax and their revenue will be reduced in the near future.

That said, tomorrow could be the very last opportunity to fly AZ, which might generate some extra revenue! Maybe I'll book a roundtrip to MXP. In fact, why not make it an a.net event? So let's all go to Milan (Or Rome?) on AZ tomorrow and have a drink in MXP  drunk ! But if AZ does collapse tomorrow, who is going to fly the pope home  scratchchin ?


User currently offlineKonrad From United States of America, joined Mar 2002, 525 posts, RR: 0
Reply 16, posted (5 years 11 months 3 weeks 13 hours ago) and read 17404 times:



Quoting KL577 (Reply 15):
But if AZ does collapse tomorrow, who is going to fly the pope home scratchchin ?

The pope doesn't buy round-trip tickets.

He takes Alitalia on the outbound and trusts the local "national" airline to bring him back to Vatican. So it will be Air France this time.


User currently offlineOa260 From Ireland, joined Nov 2006, 26949 posts, RR: 58
Reply 17, posted (5 years 11 months 3 weeks 13 hours ago) and read 17215 times:

Certainly looks like D day for AZ now. The media is all over it and this will send alarm bells to airports and caterers that AZ use around the globe. Sky News are saying they could go bust in 24 hours.

User currently offlineReadytotaxi From United Kingdom, joined Dec 2006, 3230 posts, RR: 2
Reply 18, posted (5 years 11 months 3 weeks 13 hours ago) and read 17151 times:

Shame, really do not think they will be flying Monday morning.  Sad


you don't get a second chance to make a first impression!
User currently offlineJanmnastami From Italy, joined Apr 2008, 828 posts, RR: 0
Reply 19, posted (5 years 11 months 3 weeks 13 hours ago) and read 16785 times:



Quoting Kiwiandrew (Reply 12):
where ? I could certainly understand that companies would no longer offer AZ any form of credit - but up till now I was not aware that they were being forced to pay up front for services

It was declared by Mr. Fantozzi (and there were some forum rumours) that some crews had to pay in advance for fuel or catering.


User currently offlineLJ From Netherlands, joined Nov 1999, 4418 posts, RR: 0
Reply 20, posted (5 years 11 months 3 weeks 12 hours ago) and read 16677 times:



Quoting LipeGIG (Reply 14):
Even if they manage to get some extra cash, as you explained this announcement will scare many pax and their revenue will be reduced in the near future. At this point, unless something huge in terms of cash and changes happen, there will be no future at all.

However, this is not the worst problem. Any supplier needing cash from AZ will automatically demand upfront payment, anyone who has to pay AZ for services they have to deliver in future (travel agents who sold tickets on AZ for pax leaving after Sunday) will delay payment.


User currently offlineOa260 From Ireland, joined Nov 2006, 26949 posts, RR: 58
Reply 21, posted (5 years 11 months 3 weeks 12 hours ago) and read 16564 times:



Quoting LJ (Reply 20):
deliver in future (travel agents who sold tickets on AZ for pax leaving after Sunday) will delay payment.

How can they hold back BSP payments?


User currently offlineLightsaber From United States of America, joined Jan 2005, 13018 posts, RR: 100
Reply 22, posted (5 years 11 months 3 weeks 12 hours ago) and read 16241 times:
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This is its own significant development and I hope the moderators let this thread continue.

Quoting FlySSC (Reply 9):
So What ? Anything new ? They've been out of money for years now ! any other "normal" airline in a "normal" country in the same situation as AZ would be out of business for a long time ...

 checkmark  This combined with their latest round of union issues blocking a rescue... Its time to turn out the lights. Its a brutal environment out there and AZ is losing, per the WSJ,
one million Euros per day. National pride is one thing... running a business is another.

Quoting Janmnastami (Reply 19):
some crews had to pay in advance for fuel or catering.

Ouch... That will eat through AZ's cash quickly.

Quoting Oa260 (Reply 21):
How can they hold back BSP payments?

Its marginally legal when an airline's survival is in doubt. AZ is in no position to demand late fees...

Lightsaber



Societies that achieve a critical mass of ideas achieve self sustaining growth; others stagnate.
User currently offlineJanmnastami From Italy, joined Apr 2008, 828 posts, RR: 0
Reply 23, posted (5 years 11 months 3 weeks 12 hours ago) and read 16111 times:



Quoting Lightsaber (Reply 22):
AZ is losing, per the WSJ,
one million Euros per day.

The WSJ's journalists don't know what they write  Smile : AZ is not losing one million of euro per day, AZ is losing more than three million per day!


User currently offlineOa260 From Ireland, joined Nov 2006, 26949 posts, RR: 58
Reply 24, posted (5 years 11 months 3 weeks 12 hours ago) and read 15953 times:



Quoting Janmnastami (Reply 23):
AZ is not losing one million of euro per day, AZ is losing more than three million per day!

I heard the one million figure tonight on Sky News. Some guy from an aviation analyst was talking and clearly said one million. Maybe he has it wrong.


25 Post contains links Janmnastami : It's wrong, Mr. Fantozzi some days ago said that AZ is losing 100 millions per month, so this means 3 millions per day. An old article, Italian only:
26 Tonystan : I personally believe that if Alitalia does fold overnight, we will find a new government supported leaner operation in place by mid week at the latest
27 BrightCedars : Except for my first flight with them back in 1995, ever since I started flying them regularly since 2004, there was always a doubt that they wouldn't
28 Buzzaway : Up untill the last day SABENA employees and the rest of Belgium didn't believe SN would ever go bancrupt, and they had been losing money for a loooon
29 SeansasLCY : How long was it before Crossair/Swiss and SN Brussels launched after the collapse of their predecessors?
30 Boeingluvr : I have a flight booked with them departing in 3 weeks time... Do I have a hope?? Maybe I should look at rebooking now...
31 Oa260 : [quote=Boeingluvr,reply=30]I have a flight booked with them departing in 3 weeks time... Do I have a hope?? Maybe I should look at rebooking now...[/q
32 QM001 : Hello all, I smell another bailout, oh sorry I meant "Loan", coming! But seriously, this airlines needs to go belly up and fast, its time to put this
33 Rookinla : I'm not sure how that would work in Europe but...AFAIK all of the Travel Insurance companies here are not covering AZ for financial default at this p
34 LipeGIG : Good point... the Vatican can buy a BBJ/ACJ, i believe it's the better choice. If you got a R/T ticket for tmrw, you're right !
35 DTWAGENT : I understand the unions wanting to protect their jobs. But, this is going to far. They need to work with the goverment and investers if they want to k
36 Janmnastami : The pope is not a problem, he will fly Air France on the return trip and in the worst case Italy would lend him the A319CJ.
37 SWISSER : Sabena flew for 78 years without making money! Thank God the pope is safe, at least his praying paid off!
38 Janmnastami : He's the last of AZ problem. A meeting between the government, the unions (except the pilots) and CAI is taking place since an hour.
39 Lightsaber : Holy... 1.2 Billion Euros per year?!? Please tell me its only $1.2 Billion dollars. The Pope should have his own aircraft. Wouldn't a converted 763ER
40 LTBEWR : If AZ starts to strand and lose the confidence of pax around the world as can't buy fuel, then they will done as an airline. I suspect that the compan
41 Janmnastami : There has been a meeting with the unions this night, it has just ended at 2 AM. Tomorrow evening there will be the final meeting between the unions, C
42 Live2fly83 : lol-nice its funny cuz you almost think it must be true considering their history dont think they are doing well- but whish them luck
43 Tonystan : When the final nail was hammered into the coffin of Pan Am it had already sold off its most lucrative routes to the likes of United and American. So
44 GayStudPilot : Disagree. They're just a gnat on the elephant's ass. The void created will be quickly filled. A year from now no one will miss AZ and no one will car
45 Tonystan : Well I definatly agree with you on that sentiment! But they are still a big airline in Europe and have strong alliances with airlines here and indeed
46 MattRB : Sad.. I worked AZ650 this afternoon when it arrived. The airline is very much showing its state with the condition that its equipment are in..
47 Lightsaber : Good point. And scary. There will be no soft landing for AZ (or the Italian economy that feeds off AZ). Lightsaber
48 Dennys : that remembers the Swissair situation on October 2th , 2001 . ( no money to pay fuel = fleet grounded at Zûrich airport ) ; very hard situation to le
49 Boeingluvr : That's what visa is for my friend! When Zoom went under, pax were told to look to Visa and Mastercard for refunds, as it is a service paid for and no
50 Pe@rson : Needs more than devine intervention.
51 FOLOV : It's hard to see all this happening, my heart is crunching reading all the news about AZ, and the industry in General. So many people are employed by
52 ManchesterMAN : These schemes are actually a bit of a joke as they don't cover airlines likely to fold. AZ have been excluded from these schemes for a long time and
53 Kiwiandrew : the time to buy insurance was way back - I think if you try to buy it now to cover you against financial collapse of AZ you will get the same respons
54 Robffm2 : Are there any cancellations for Monday? You can still buy tickets for Frankfurt-Milano on Alitalia's site as well as via expedia. But there is a big p
55 CasualObserver : Some countries are more likely to "support" their carriers than others, as noted, we've seen the demise of Sabena and Swissair - has anyone mentioned
56 BrianDromey : Are they not in talks to "merge" with BA?
57 Connies4ever : AC didn't go under per se, they entered what's called CCAA (Company and Creditors Arrangement Act), which works similarly to Chapter 11 in the US --
58 Ned Kelly : Call me cynical if you wish, but I see this announcement as a very shrewd move by the administrators/government by getting the creditors & suppliers
59 Flyglobal : This time I expect no sudden loan. It seems that the unions need to learn the hard way. They so far survived with late and late loans. So if the doors
60 AFKL : I just had another frequent Alitalia visitor fly over my house. It's a strange idea that there is a large chance it will never be returning as of tomo
61 CasualObserver : One cannot but agree with the general consensus - AZ is in the drain's whirlpool... Just as a matter of interest, I have two excursion tickets for Oc
62 Beaucaire : I'm afraid that in those last minute talks today,unions will accept a softened version of the plan and then the whole story starts all over again. It
63 LJ : Dutch travel agents are/were just doing this. The travel agents sued IATA over this (IATA demanded full payment) and lost, but they still do everythi
64 Post contains links Banjo76 : And the soap goes on and on. Now pilot union accepts the contract but say the industrial plan problem still stands. Sorry just in Italian. http://www.
65 F4f3a : is alitalia a good airline to fly with. do they offer a good service? is it worth saving?
66 AAmd11 : Good service or not, when they lose as much money as they reportedly do, they're definitely not worth saving.
67 Janmnastami : Hundreds of AZ's employees have thrown coins against Mr. Fantozzi, the commissioner of AZ, who was going to the Ministry of Labour where will take pla
68 AirPortugal310 : My parents are going to be on a 10-day tour of Southern Italy in October and flying BOS-FCO. The travel agent told them they were flying Delta but the
69 Kiwiandrew : interesting symbolism - they are throwing their money away at the same time as they throw their jobs away
70 Post contains links BMIFlyer : Alitalia crisis meetings restart http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/business/7615113.stm
71 Janmnastami : They could throw their coins into the Trevi fountain, do you know that about 3,000 euro are thrown into the fountain every day by tourists ?
72 DHR : Shows how small minded they are.
73 Rookinla : WRONG! AZ was just added this week with our insurance company and OA is a company we can and do sell insurance for. Before calling travel insurance a
74 AirPortugal310 : You make some interesting points but isnt there at least a qualification process where you would at least look at some financials?
75 Rookinla : What type of qualification process are you referring to? If you are referring to a qualification process by the insurance company we use, the criteri
76 KL577 : That is a truly peculiar attitude, certainly if you don't know if you still have your job by tomorrow. At this point you'd expect one wants to hang o
77 Post contains links MadameConcorde : Alitalia 'can guarantee no flights after Sunday' ROME (AFP) - Failing Italian airline Alitalia cannot guarantee any flights after Sunday because of la
78 Beaucaire : With all due respect that is the least of concerns to the AZ employees and the investors.. The Vatican can rent a small private business-jet for the
79 Janmnastami : The pope is already in Rome, isn't he?
80 HT : Isn't it the usual procedure the the Holy Father flies out on AZ but then returns on the home carrier of the country he visited ? Or does this apply
81 Art : They cannot fly without fuel. An airline that cannot fly its planes is no longer an airline, is it? Who is going to put funds in the Alitalia bank ac
82 Dennys : sorry I cannot stand the idea that we might not see any Alitalia airplanes any more ! dennys
83 Banjo76 : It is painful seeing Alitalia in such conditions, especially remembering what kind of great airline it was back in the 60s and 70s. I don't think it w
84 Post contains links Boeingluvr : Never said they did... 1 hr ago... http://english.aljazeera.net/news/eu...pe/2008/09/200891554048581683.html Looks like a glimmer of hope!! Let's cro
85 FlySSC : He is flying back to FCO from LDE today Sept. 15th with an AF aircraft, the A321 F-GTAT.[Edited 2008-09-15 03:55:30]
86 Post contains links Reality : Well............they still seem to be flying: Sep 18 Alitalia SpA was teetering on the brink of financial ruin Wednesday after an employee strike forc
87 Thomas_Jaeger : This morning's FCO-ZRH-FCO rotation has been cancelled as well.
88 Lambert747 : It ceases to amaze how Alitalia has been on deaths door for years and the country still threw money into the fire that is AZ. Years of mismanagement,
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