A388 From Netherlands Antilles, joined May 2001, 9079 posts, RR: 13 Posted (4 years 8 months 2 weeks 12 hours ago) and read 3242 times:
Hi,
As per another thread now running about a KQ 777 being damaged in Africa I started asking questions about the African aviation as I know little about the aviation in this part of the world. Having an idea about the aviation in all parts of the world is always nice to me. So here it goes....
My questions regarding the African aviation:
Which city pairs are the most lucrative and most profitable just as
LHR, CDG and FRA are in Europe?
Which African airline is the most dominant and/or strongest in Africa
and which parts of Africa? A breakdown in the categories profitability, financial strengths, route structure, most up to date fleet size and future strategies is highly appreciated.
Is consolidation expected among African airlines just as we are seeing
in other parts of the world (such as KL/AF and DL/NW)?
Any other interesting information on African aviation is very much welcomed!!
ENU From Netherlands, joined Nov 2006, 1166 posts, RR: 0 Reply 2, posted (4 years 7 months 4 weeks 1 day 21 hours ago) and read 3020 times:
Is there any news on AirDC (DRCongo)? Latest I heard, was that the project between Brussel Airlines and Hewa Bora is death... The Congo government signed a new deal with RAK Airways to start a new Congo Airlines, but this deal collapsed too...
Alibo5NGN From United States of America, joined Oct 2006, 772 posts, RR: 1 Reply 3, posted (4 years 7 months 4 weeks 1 day 14 hours ago) and read 2921 times:
Quoting Thomas_Jaeger (Reply 1): The largest and most influential carriers I would say are South African, EgyptAir, Kenya, Ethiopian, Royal Air Maroc and Air Algérie in that order
Ethiopian, Royal Air Maroc and Kenya Airways have larger networks than Egypt Air and South African Airways. Arik Air of Nigeria is set to burst into the international scene in much the same way as Jet Airways of India did.
It takes knowledge to make a career. It takes wisdom to live a life.
A388 From Netherlands Antilles, joined May 2001, 9079 posts, RR: 13 Reply 5, posted (4 years 7 months 4 weeks 1 day 1 hour ago) and read 2788 times:
Quoting ENU (Reply 2): Is there any news on AirDC (DRCongo)? Latest I heard, was that the project between Brussel Airlines and Hewa Bora is death... The Congo government signed a new deal with RAK Airways to start a new Congo Airlines, but this deal collapsed too...
A388 From Netherlands Antilles, joined May 2001, 9079 posts, RR: 13 Reply 6, posted (4 years 7 months 4 weeks 1 day 1 hour ago) and read 2787 times:
Quoting Alibo5NGN (Reply 3): Ethiopian, Royal Air Maroc and Kenya Airways have larger networks than Egypt Air and South African Airways.
I wouldn't have thought this, how much bigger are Ethiopean, Royal Air Maroc and Kenya compared to Egypt Air and SAA? Are they larger in terms of their African network, their international network or both?
Quoting Alibo5NGN (Reply 3): Arik Air of Nigeria is set to burst into the international scene in much the same way as Jet Airways of India did.
I have read mixed opinions about Arik Air so I'm not sure how much value I can give Arik Air yet.
AsoRock From Bahrain, joined May 2006, 318 posts, RR: 0 Reply 8, posted (4 years 7 months 4 weeks 16 hours ago) and read 2636 times:
Quoting Alibo5NGN (Reply 3): Ethiopian, Royal Air Maroc and Kenya Airways have larger networks than Egypt Air and South African Airways
Last time I checked Egypt Air had a network including more than 80 destinations with a fleet much larger than Ethiopian, RAM or Kenya Airways, it's also been admitted into Star Alliance.
I dont see how you imagine these to be larger than EgyptAir.
Flylot From United States of America, joined Dec 2007, 186 posts, RR: 0 Reply 9, posted (4 years 7 months 4 weeks 15 hours ago) and read 2618 times:
Just to clear up confusion, African operators ranking by fleet size:
MS
Fleet size 51 (+ 32 orders and 2 options)
Destinations 73
SAA
Fleet size 49
Destinations 35
AT
Fleet size 43 (+ 13 orders)
Destinations 73
ET
Fleet size 34 (+11 orders)
Destinations 50
AH
Fleet size 33
Destinations 74
TU
Fleet size 32 (+16 orders)
Destinations 53
KQ
Fleet size 26 (+11 orders, 5 options)
Destinations 42
Egyptair clearly wins and is clearly expanding.
While South African has released intent not to expand under its restructuring plan, which was implemented after years in the red. I had no idea that they got rid of their 747!
Cchan From New Zealand, joined May 2003, 1702 posts, RR: 2 Reply 10, posted (4 years 7 months 4 weeks 4 hours ago) and read 2544 times:
Which African carriers fly the A32X series aircrafts? There don't seem to be a lot of them (compared to 737s) outside North Africa and the few that SAA operates.
KL577 From Netherlands, joined Oct 2006, 750 posts, RR: 0 Reply 11, posted (4 years 7 months 4 weeks 4 hours ago) and read 2533 times:
Quoting AsoRock (Reply 8): Quoting Alibo5NGN (Reply 3):
Ethiopian, Royal Air Maroc and Kenya Airways have larger networks than Egypt Air and South African Airways
Last time I checked Egypt Air had a network including more than 80 destinations with a fleet much larger than Ethiopian, RAM or Kenya Airways, it's also been admitted into Star Alliance.
I dont see how you imagine these to be larger than EgyptAir.
Quoting Flylot (Reply 9): Egyptair clearly wins and is clearly expanding.
While South African has released intent not to expand under its restructuring plan, which was implemented after years in the red. I had no idea that they got rid of their 747!
That said ET, KQ and AT serve far more destinations in Africa than either MS or SA do. MS is strong in the Middle East and Europe and has a considerable domestic network, but serves very few destinations in Africa. SA is strong in SA and, well, where else?
Flylot From United States of America, joined Dec 2007, 186 posts, RR: 0 Reply 12, posted (4 years 7 months 3 weeks 6 days 13 hours ago) and read 2404 times:
Quoting KL577 (Reply 11): That said ET, KQ and AT serve far more destinations in Africa than either MS or SA do. MS is strong in the Middle East and Europe and has a considerable domestic network, but serves very few destinations in Africa. SA is strong in SA and, well, where else?
you have a point. Let rank the airlines by number of African destinations (excluding domestic):
KQ: 31
ET: 29
AT: 26
SA: 22
MS: 14
AH: 11
TU: 11
does anyone else notice that the list appears to have flipped? I guess I shouldn't really be surprised. I can't see how awarding routes between African countries can be given the size of the continent, cost of fuel, and GDP when you can use the same aircraft for flights to the ME and Europe.
RoyalAirMaroc From United Kingdom, joined Mar 2007, 187 posts, RR: 0 Reply 13, posted (4 years 7 months 3 weeks 6 days 12 hours ago) and read 2378 times:
Quoting Flylot (Reply 12): I can't see how awarding routes between African countries can be given the size of the continent, cost of fuel, and GDP when you can use the same aircraft for flights to the ME and Europe.
I'm not sure about other African carriers, but AT realistically are only able to operate flights within Africa primarily due to inbound traffic from the EU, CMN is used as the transit hub.
Life is a Journey, One Which I hope will include alot of Flights !! =]
Impacto From Canada, joined Mar 2007, 213 posts, RR: 0 Reply 14, posted (4 years 7 months 3 weeks 6 days 12 hours ago) and read 2377 times:
Quoting Cchan (Reply 10): Which African carriers fly the A32X series aircrafts? There don't seem to be a lot of them (compared to 737s) outside North Africa and the few that SAA operates.
Afriqiyah Airways A319/A320
Air Burkina A319
Air Mauritius A319
Air Ivoire A321
Air Tanzania A320
Egyptair A320/A321
Libyan Airlines A320
Nouvelair A320/A321
Royal Air Maroc A321?
SAA A319
Tunisair A320
Alibo5NGN From United States of America, joined Oct 2006, 772 posts, RR: 1 Reply 16, posted (4 years 7 months 3 weeks 5 days 23 hours ago) and read 2243 times:
Quoting Impacto (Reply 14): Afriqiyah Airways A319/A320
Air Burkina A319
Air Mauritius A319
Air Ivoire A321
Air Tanzania A320
Egyptair A320/A321
Libyan Airlines A320
Nouvelair A320/A321
Royal Air Maroc A321?
SAA A319
Tunisair A320
With the exception of SAA, Air Tranzania and Egypt Air, all the operators of Airbus in Africa have a connection to the French.
It takes knowledge to make a career. It takes wisdom to live a life.
KL577 From Netherlands, joined Oct 2006, 750 posts, RR: 0 Reply 17, posted (4 years 7 months 3 weeks 5 days 19 hours ago) and read 2195 times:
Quoting Flylot (Reply 12): does anyone else notice that the list appears to have flipped? I guess I shouldn't really be surprised. I can't see how awarding routes between African countries can be given the size of the continent, cost of fuel, and GDP when you can use the same aircraft for flights to the ME and Europe.
Primarily because KQ and ET connect Africa to the Dubai, India and China. Those countries do business in Africa, unlike the relatively small presence of European and American companies.
AirNovaBAe146 From Canada, joined Jun 2008, 350 posts, RR: 0 Reply 18, posted (4 years 7 months 3 weeks 5 days 16 hours ago) and read 2155 times:
Quoting Flylot (Reply 9):
SAA
Fleet size 49
Destinations 35
What about if you counted SA Express, Airlink, and Mango? Fleet size would be bigger than MS. There isn't much 'regional' about the yields SA is getting by flying Express Q400s to FBM or Airlink E135s to Ndola.
Alessandro From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR: Reply 19, posted (4 years 7 months 3 weeks 5 days 16 hours ago) and read 2146 times:
As for manufacturing I see little done in ultralight planes in South Africa and quite a bit co-operation with Airbus for Tunisia, which manufacture a fair bit of parts to the A380.
As for demand, I think it´s high, railroads seem to suffer from lack of investment, ferries are not so well invested in either.
As for safety, I think it continue to be poor, but the 2nd hand market for Let´s and Antonovs will dry up when fewer are availble and Embraer will take a larger marketshare, Boeing/McDonnell-Douglas will be more common than Airbus for a long time especially B737, B747 and DC9&co
compared with the A300, A310, A320 and A340. I predict that China will continue to offer their airplanes at very low price to African countries and compete with 2nd hand airplanes,
Illjysin won´t sell any new planes, Tupolev a few.
Flylot From United States of America, joined Dec 2007, 186 posts, RR: 0 Reply 20, posted (4 years 7 months 3 weeks 5 days 13 hours ago) and read 2110 times:
Quoting AirNovaBAe146 (Reply 18): What about if you counted SA Express, Airlink, and Mango? Fleet size would be bigger than MS. There isn't much 'regional' about the yields SA is getting by flying Express Q400s to FBM or Airlink E135s to Ndola.
your right, my observation was a bit crude given the two data tables. The data we really need is profits on routes between cities in Africa versus routes between Africa and ME/E. I've tried looking on airline websites but all I can find is general annual report numbers. Anyone know where else to look?
AF022 From France, joined Dec 2003, 2082 posts, RR: 1 Reply 22, posted (4 years 7 months 3 weeks 2 days 13 hours ago) and read 1969 times:
Quoting Cchan (Reply 21): Just a quick question: among the major African airlines, which ones are profitable and which ones are constantly making losses? Thanks.
It would be much easier to ask which make money, because the vast majority lose money - tons of it.
I would say ET and KQ are definitely profitable. I don't know much about North African carriers, but I would think these are two of just a very few that are profitable.
RoyalAirMaroc From United Kingdom, joined Mar 2007, 187 posts, RR: 0 Reply 23, posted (4 years 7 months 3 weeks 1 day 21 hours ago) and read 1850 times:
From what i understand, AT and TU are making profits, whilst AH seem to be bleeding money due to the current position Algeria is in.
Life is a Journey, One Which I hope will include alot of Flights !! =]
Beaucaire From Syria, joined Sep 2003, 5252 posts, RR: 26 Reply 24, posted (4 years 7 months 3 weeks 1 day 21 hours ago) and read 1840 times:
Quoting ENU (Reply 2): Is there any news on AirDC (DRCongo)? Latest I heard, was that the project between Brussel Airlines and Hewa Bora is death... The Congo government signed a new deal with RAK Airways to start a new Congo Airlines, but this deal collapsed too..
MHTripple7 From United States of America, joined Feb 2008, 1050 posts, RR: 5 Reply 25, posted (4 years 7 months 3 weeks 1 day 21 hours ago) and read 1819 times:
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