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Somebody Tell Me This Aircraft Isn't About To Fly!  
User currently offlineCumulus From United Kingdom, joined Aug 2006, 1402 posts, RR: 1
Posted (5 years 10 months 2 weeks 3 days 18 hours ago) and read 22936 times:

I thought de-icing was done at stand!


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What Goes Up Must Come Down, Hopefully In One Piece!
47 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineCubsrule From United States of America, joined May 2004, 22726 posts, RR: 20
Reply 1, posted (5 years 10 months 2 weeks 3 days 18 hours ago) and read 22940 times:

I can't speak for OSL, but there are plenty of airports in the States that deice on dedicated deicing pads.


I can't decide whether I miss the tulip or the bowling shoe more
User currently offlineKaiGywer From United States of America, joined Oct 2003, 12217 posts, RR: 35
Reply 2, posted (5 years 10 months 2 weeks 3 days 18 hours ago) and read 22904 times:
AIRLINERS.NET CREW
FORUM MODERATOR

OSL has deice pads.


911, where is your emergency?
User currently offline413X3 From United States of America, joined Jul 2008, 1983 posts, RR: 0
Reply 3, posted (5 years 10 months 2 weeks 3 days 18 hours ago) and read 22903 times:

As long as there is no ice on the control surfaces and static ports what do you think ice will do to the body itself?

User currently offlineKELPkid From United States of America, joined Nov 2005, 6346 posts, RR: 3
Reply 4, posted (5 years 10 months 2 weeks 3 days 18 hours ago) and read 22908 times:

Considering that you didn't read an accident report on the same day that the photo was taken, I'd say don't worry  Wink

It could have been anything, like the flight crew merely taxiing the aircraft from an overnight parking stand to the gate, or even from the gate to a maintenance hangar (and I doubt they'd bother de-icing it if it's not going for a flight).



Celebrating the birth of KELPkidJR on August 5, 2009 :-)
User currently offlineLowrider From United States of America, joined Jun 2004, 3220 posts, RR: 10
Reply 5, posted (5 years 10 months 2 weeks 3 days 18 hours ago) and read 22907 times:

Not always. Frequently deicing must be done over special drains for environmental reasons. The aircraft may simply be repositioning to one of these areas. Or it may be enroute from a hanger to the gate. I see no evidence that it is configured for take off.


Proud OOTSK member
User currently offlineAntonovman From United Kingdom, joined Mar 2001, 720 posts, RR: 1
Reply 6, posted (5 years 10 months 2 weeks 3 days 18 hours ago) and read 22906 times:

Looks like a giganic bird flew over it and s**t on it  Big grin

User currently offlineCumulus From United Kingdom, joined Aug 2006, 1402 posts, RR: 1
Reply 7, posted (5 years 10 months 2 weeks 3 days 18 hours ago) and read 22841 times:



Quoting 413X3 (Reply 3):
As long as there is no ice on the control surfaces and static ports what do you think ice will do to the body itself?

It changes the whole aerodynamics of the aircraft itself, and the build up would increase at altitude.



What Goes Up Must Come Down, Hopefully In One Piece!
User currently offlineDoona From Sweden, joined Feb 2005, 3764 posts, RR: 13
Reply 8, posted (5 years 10 months 2 weeks 3 days 18 hours ago) and read 22822 times:

Not everywhere. I don't know about OSL, but at CPH de-icing is done at designated aprons located on the way to the runways.

At ARN, however, it's done at the gate. Please correct me on that if I'm wrong. Still, seems more practical having it all located in one area instead of having de-icing equipment moved back and forth all over the airport...

Cheers
Mats



Sure, we're concerned for our lives. Just not as concerned as saving 9 bucks on a roundtrip to Ft. Myers.
User currently offlineKELPkid From United States of America, joined Nov 2005, 6346 posts, RR: 3
Reply 9, posted (5 years 10 months 2 weeks 3 days 18 hours ago) and read 22746 times:



Quoting 413X3 (Reply 3):
As long as there is no ice on the control surfaces and static ports what do you think ice will do to the body itself?

Ice is bad news for lift surfaces. 1/100 of an inch worth of frost on a wing can reduce lift by 35%. Obviously, if there is so much snow and ice on the wing that it changes the shape of the wing (where the shape that the manufacturer intended the wing to be is critical), you are making yourself a test pilot if you take off with it adhering to the airframe.


See:

http://aircrafticing.grc.nasa.gov/co...sources/documents/decisiontree.pdf

Also:

http://www.faa.gov/airports_airtraff...ions/atpubs/aim/Chap7/aim0705.html

And I quote from the AIM (last link above Smile

Quote:

7-5-14. Operations in Ground Icing Conditions

a. The presence of aircraft airframe icing during takeoff, typically caused by improper or no deicing of the aircraft being accomplished prior to flight has contributed to many recent accidents in turbine aircraft. The General Aviation Joint Steering Committee (GAJSC) is the primary vehicle for government-industry cooperation, communication, and coordination on GA accident mitigation. The Turbine Aircraft Operations Subgroup (TAOS) works to mitigate accidents in turbine accident aviation. While there is sufficient information and guidance currently available regarding the effects of icing on aircraft and methods for deicing, the TAOS has developed a list of recommended actions to further assist pilots and operators in this area.

While the efforts of the TAOS specifically focus on turbine aircraft, it is recognized that their recommendations are applicable to and can be adapted for the pilot of a small, piston powered aircraft too.

b. The following recommendations are offered:

1. Ensure that your aircraft's lift-generating surfaces are COMPLETELY free of contamination before flight through a tactile (hands on) check of the critical surfaces when feasible. Even when otherwise permitted, operators should avoid smooth or polished frost on lift-generating surfaces as an acceptable preflight condition




Celebrating the birth of KELPkidJR on August 5, 2009 :-)
User currently offlineMainMAN From United Kingdom, joined Jul 2005, 2097 posts, RR: 5
Reply 10, posted (5 years 10 months 2 weeks 3 days 18 hours ago) and read 22746 times:



Quoting Lowrider (Reply 5):
Frequently deicing must be done over special drains for environmental reasons.

I've often wondered about this. Does anyone know if the de-icer is recycled? This service must cost northern airlines a fortune to add to their already precarious balance sheets.


User currently offlineKaiGywer From United States of America, joined Oct 2003, 12217 posts, RR: 35
Reply 11, posted (5 years 10 months 2 weeks 3 days 18 hours ago) and read 22664 times:
AIRLINERS.NET CREW
FORUM MODERATOR



Quoting MainMAN (Reply 10):
Does anyone know if the de-icer is recycled?

Yes. At least at MSP it is drained in special drains, pumped to a recycling station where it is cleaned etc., then pumped back in the tanks for reuse. But yes, still it's an expensive venture.



911, where is your emergency?
User currently offlineBuyantUkhaa From Mongolia, joined May 2004, 2873 posts, RR: 3
Reply 12, posted (5 years 10 months 2 weeks 3 days 18 hours ago) and read 22645 times:



Quoting Cumulus (Reply 7):
It changes the whole aerodynamics of the aircraft itself, and the build up would increase at altitude.

This one seems to fly just fine:

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I scratch my head, therefore I am.
User currently offlinePanAm747 From United States of America, joined Feb 2004, 4242 posts, RR: 8
Reply 13, posted (5 years 10 months 2 weeks 3 days 18 hours ago) and read 22643 times:



Quote:
As long as there is no ice on the control surfaces and static ports what do you think ice will do to the body itself?

http://aviation-safety.net/database/record.php?id=19820113-0

http://aviation-safety.net/database/record.php?id=19941031-1

Ironic, isn't it? Cold air is easier to become airborne in than hot air, yet the moisture in cold air is deadly to an airplane.



Pan Am:The World's Most Experienced Airline - P(oor) S(ailor's) A(irline): San Diego's Hometown Airline-Catch Our Smile!
User currently offlineRichierich From United States of America, joined Nov 2000, 4242 posts, RR: 6
Reply 14, posted (5 years 10 months 2 weeks 3 days 17 hours ago) and read 22345 times:



Quoting KELPkid (Reply 4):
Considering that you didn't read an accident report on the same day that the photo was taken, I'd say don't worry

Well this doesn't mean that risks weren't/have not been taken, but I agree that in this case there was little reason to worry.

Quoting Cumulus (Reply 7):
It changes the whole aerodynamics of the aircraft itself, and the build up would increase at altitude.

Yes, but in my experience it is very thin rime (spelling?) ice that is very dangerous. The thick busy snow and ice deposits usually slide right off. Rime ice has definitive swirling characteristics that can be seen but it doesn't look like much - however it has brought down modern aircraft on several occasions. Air Florida comes to mind.



None shall pass!!!!
User currently offlineSpacecadet From United States of America, joined Sep 2001, 3610 posts, RR: 12
Reply 15, posted (5 years 10 months 2 weeks 3 days 16 hours ago) and read 21845 times:

Quoting BuyantUkhaa (Reply 12):
This one seems to fly just fine:

a) different aircraft type

b) that airplane is *much* cleaner

There is clearly ice and snow on both wings of the 737 pictured at the top (look at the left wing, not just the right), and it's also blocking the landing lights.

Fuselage icing is more of a problem on some airplanes than others, as the Air Florida flight 90 accident report made clear.

No doubt that 737 was de-iced after this photo was taken. It wouldn't have taken off in that condition. (And I mean that in both ways you could interpret that sentence.)

[Edited 2008-09-15 14:28:18]


I'm tired of being a wanna-be league bowler. I wanna be a league bowler!
User currently offlineViscount724 From Switzerland, joined Oct 2006, 24868 posts, RR: 22
Reply 16, posted (5 years 10 months 2 weeks 3 days 15 hours ago) and read 21628 times:



Quoting PanAm747 (Reply 13):
Ironic, isn't it? Cold air is easier to become airborne in than hot air, yet the moisture in cold air is deadly to an airplane.



Quoting PanAm747 (Reply 13):
Quote:
As long as there is no ice on the control surfaces and static ports what do you think ice will do to the body itself?

http://aviation-safety.net/database/record.php?id=19820113-0

http://aviation-safety.net/database/record.php?id=19941031-1

Ironic, isn't it? Cold air is easier to become airborne in than hot air, yet the moisture in cold air is deadly to an airplane.

A few other fatal accidents blamed on inadequate deicing. There are many others.
http://aviation-safety.net/database/record.php?id=20041121-0
http://aviation-safety.net/database/record.php?id=19930305-1
http://aviation-safety.net/database/record.php?id=19920322-1
http://aviation-safety.net/database/record.php?id=19890310-1
http://aviation-safety.net/database/record.php?id=19871115-0

This one wasn't fatal but did result in the loss of an SAS MD-81.
http://aviation-safety.net/database/record.php?id=19911227-0


User currently offlineBoeingluvr From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 17, posted (5 years 10 months 2 weeks 3 days 13 hours ago) and read 20448 times:

I'm pretty sure he's not ready to fly... His leading edge slats are not even extended for takeoff...

User currently offlineWestJetYQQ From Canada, joined Jan 2007, 2987 posts, RR: 5
Reply 18, posted (5 years 10 months 2 weeks 3 days 12 hours ago) and read 19512 times:



Quoting 413X3 (Reply 3):
As long as there is no ice on the control surfaces and static ports what do you think ice will do to the body itself?



Quoting Cumulus (Reply 7):
It changes the whole aerodynamics of the aircraft itself, and the build up would increase at altitude.

Not to mention that when ice and snow build up like that, it adds a significant amount of weight; usually a hell of a lot more than it looks like.

Cheers
Carson



Will You Try to Change Things? Use the Power that you have, the Power of a Million new Ideas.
User currently offlineJETnyc From United States of America, joined Jun 2007, 103 posts, RR: 5
Reply 19, posted (5 years 10 months 2 weeks 3 days 12 hours ago) and read 19435 times:

How stupid to let that KLM 777 with ice take off like that..

User currently offlineFlyf15 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 20, posted (5 years 10 months 2 weeks 3 days 11 hours ago) and read 18778 times:



Quoting BuyantUkhaa (Reply 12):
Quoting Cumulus (Reply 7):
It changes the whole aerodynamics of the aircraft itself, and the build up would increase at altitude.

This one seems to fly just fine:



Quoting JETnyc (Reply 19):
How stupid to let that KLM 777 with ice take off like that..

At my airline, we're authorized to take off with frost covering certain areas of the airplane as long as it meets various requirements. The top of the fuselage is one of those areas.


User currently offlineMortyman From Norway, joined Aug 2006, 3845 posts, RR: 1
Reply 21, posted (5 years 10 months 2 weeks 3 days 11 hours ago) and read 18544 times:

OSL has de-icing pads where the plane gets deiced before it enters the runway.



If you click on the picture, you can see several pictures underneath this one from deicing at OSL


User currently offlineLonghornDC9 From United States of America, joined Feb 2008, 48 posts, RR: 0
Reply 22, posted (5 years 10 months 2 weeks 3 days 11 hours ago) and read 18188 times:



Quoting JETnyc (Reply 19):
How stupid to let that KLM 777 with ice take off like that..

Eh, there is clearly no ice on the wings, control surfaces, or other key areas, so, he's fine.

Quoting WestJetYQQ (Reply 18):
Not to mention that when ice and snow build up like that, it adds a significant amount of weight; usually a hell of a lot more than it looks like.

Ice is quite heavy, but usually when an aircraft crashes due to icing, it is because the ice disturbed the airflow over/to something important.



Lone Star Beer and Bob Will's Music . . . . . . . .
User currently offlineBarnesy2006 From United Kingdom, joined Feb 2007, 65 posts, RR: 0
Reply 23, posted (5 years 10 months 2 weeks 3 days 10 hours ago) and read 17409 times:

Definately not ready for take-off with that much contamination. We wouldn't let the 737-800's out with that much snow, even on the fuselage! where i work the fuselage only needs doing if you can't read the writing underneath it.

User currently offlineDocLightning From United States of America, joined Nov 2005, 19411 posts, RR: 58
Reply 24, posted (5 years 10 months 2 weeks 3 days 8 hours ago) and read 16333 times:



Quoting KaiGywer (Reply 2):
OSL has deice pads.

As do DTW and MSP. And one of the Scandinavian airports has a huge deicing gantry thing that the plane just taxis through and gets the whole thing in one blow. Apparently uses about 1/3 less deicer, too.


25 Post contains links USAir330 : That plane was not taking off it was either repositioning to a stand for the night or going to get de-iced. If you look at the elevator's there trimme
26 Post contains links ADent : Airplanes w/o leading edge devices can be VERY sensitive to ice. From: http://www.ntsb.gov/Publictn/2006/AAB0603.pdf
27 Airbuster : The Scandinavians really do know how to deice! And with this much ice/sow scattered over the entire aircraft i am in no doubt that the crew performed
28 Joost : Didn't they build an infrared de-icing facility in Oslo a couple of years ago? Is it in use?
29 797charter : And i add's an unknown weight...
30 Cumulus : I once heard that a Russian Aircrew used copious amounts of Vodka to de-ice (on the plane I hasten to add). Anybody else heard this?
31 HAWK21M : The Control surfaces need to be clear...... regds MEL
32 Luv2cattlecall : I remember reading something from B6 saying that it costs $4,000 to deice an A320...but now they're implementing infrared deicers - though they still
33 Metroliner : Not sure if that is true, but I do know they used a jet engine mounted on a truck to de-ice aircraft in some distant outstations... there's a video o
34 Post contains links SASDC8 : The A/C is one its way to de-iceing and not to the RWY for take off At OSL de-icing is done at de-icing pads or in special de-ice hangar, which uses I
35 Aviationfreak : Usually we have to deice the fuselage only on request. Wings and control area's are standard procedure. And yes deicing is very expensive for airlines
36 Katwspotter : Per the FAA..."Get it Clean and Keep it Clean." Basicaly all contaminates on and aircrafts surface must be tkaen off and kept off...hence type iV ant
37 Wukka : A buddy of mine used to man the bucket for de-icing. Everyone had to line up at the pads because of the recycling drains, otherwise every heavy that w
38 FalconBird : As someone said earlier, as long as it doesn't impact the wing surfaces, pitot tube and other important systems it's not that big of a problem. I gua
39 Lowrider : These are in use all over they world. They are great for removing frost or small amounts of snow, but are next to useless in active precipitation The
40 Railker : Isn't it true that when an aircraft is being painted, close atention has to be taken to the thickness of the paint and ensuring there are no irregular
41 Mayor : When I used to de-ice, we tried to remove snow and ice from the entire a/c. Once, we had a snowstorm that deposited a very light, popcorn like snow on
42 Barnesy2006 : During the last winter season we had a hard frost one morning and we did an early de-ice as per usual in these conditions. We had a call back from a c
43 CosmicCruiser : Unless you're in a tri-jet and any ice on top may be injested by no. 2.
44 Mortyman : Oslo Airport Gardermoen was the first airport in Europe to use of the infrared de-icing .
45 Grimey : You got to remember that KLM is owned by AF so cleaning the outside of the plane is not done in full Grimey
46 Post contains images KaiGywer : We have to do tactile inspections on the CRJ (and Saab in case of heavy icing). It sucks, get all wet and cold Deicing fluid is orange and removes sn
47 TheCol : I bet the airline wasn't too happy to take a delay over that one.
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