SKAirbus From United Kingdom, joined Oct 2007, 617 posts, RR: 1 Reply 3, posted (1 year 1 month 3 weeks 3 days 8 hours ago) and read 18444 times:
Apparently there was no warning in the cockpit but isn't it standard practise for crews to check out the window to see if the flaps are deployed? Of course on an MD80 the wings are far back but they can still see the leading edge and if the slats are deployed...
Kimberlyrj From United Kingdom, joined Mar 2008, 295 posts, RR: 1 Reply 4, posted (1 year 1 month 3 weeks 3 days 8 hours ago) and read 18402 times:
Quoting SKAirbus (Reply 3): Apparently there was no warning in the cockpit but isn't it standard practise for crews to check out the window to see if the flaps are deployed? Of course on an MD80 the wings are far back but they can still see the leading edge and if the slats are deployed
The pilots would not be able to see the wings and cabin crew are not asked to check, unless there is a known issue.
I would have thought the MD80 aircraft would warn pilots when they engage take off thrust if the aircraft is not in the correct configuration, as Airbus and Boeing aircraft do.
And of course there is the check list, they would have had to go through the taxi check list and the take off check list and not checked the flap control. Also they would have had a take off brief, flap setting, speeds, minimum safe altitude, what happens if there is a problem etc.
All sounds quite shocking to me!
Kimberly.
Remember being polite costs nothing, even to us cabin crew ;o)
NEMA From United Kingdom, joined Feb 2006, 537 posts, RR: 0 Reply 6, posted (1 year 1 month 3 weeks 3 days 8 hours ago) and read 18280 times:
Quoting Kimberlyrj (Reply 4): I would have thought the MD80 aircraft would warn pilots when they engage take off thrust if the aircraft is not in the correct configuration, as Airbus and Boeing aircraft do.
Mastropiero From Spain, joined Dec 2005, 84 posts, RR: 0 Reply 7, posted (1 year 1 month 3 weeks 3 days 8 hours ago) and read 18263 times:
Apparently the warning system failed, that is what is been published on spanish newspapers as well. However, we are still in the dark as far as why the flats where not deployed for take off.
Quoting from "El Pais": "No warning sounded alerting the crew about the inadequate take off configuration, even though the flap angle value sent by the wings sensors was 0º during take off roll and take off. Investigators suspect an electrical failure might have "tricked" the aircraft into believing it was airborne."
SQ325 From Germany, joined Jul 2001, 1356 posts, RR: 10 Reply 8, posted (1 year 1 month 3 weeks 3 days 8 hours ago) and read 18208 times:
But most important wil be wether the "trickering" was just a simple malfunction or a man made (bypassed to operate according MEL)
You can bet Spanair will blame the pilots at first but we will see!
BCAL From United Kingdom, joined Jun 2004, 3378 posts, RR: 29 Reply 9, posted (1 year 1 month 3 weeks 3 days 7 hours ago) and read 17934 times:
It says in the BBC article that "Spanish media has reported", "several Spanish newspapers said", "Reports in the Spanish media suggest" etc so the article is about other articles rather than BBC checking their facts direct with the investigators. Maybe it is best to wait for the official report?
MOL on SRB's latest attack at BA: "It's like a little Chihuahua barking at a dying Labrador. Nobody cares."
Danny From Ireland, joined Apr 2002, 3268 posts, RR: 6 Reply 11, posted (1 year 1 month 3 weeks 3 days 7 hours ago) and read 17881 times:
Quoting Jetfuel (Reply 10):
if what I read is true this horrendous
I would be more careful with those kind of comments. It seems that we are not clear if flaps were selected but failed or the pilots failed to set flaps for take off.
ExSR From Germany, joined Sep 2008, 83 posts, RR: 0 Reply 12, posted (1 year 1 month 3 weeks 3 days 7 hours ago) and read 17746 times:
German news said this morning, that MD told all MD80 operators after the 1987 accident to include a configuration-warning-system (what a word) test into the checklists prior each take-off. This, so the pretty reliable Spiegel-news, wasn´t followed by Spanair: they only wanted the flihgtcrews to check the warning system prior the first leg of the day or after a crewchange.
DogBreath From United Kingdom, joined Mar 2008, 83 posts, RR: 0 Reply 13, posted (1 year 1 month 3 weeks 3 days 6 hours ago) and read 17475 times:
Anyone who believes what the media has say are kidding themselves. Most if not all media reporters wouldn't know the first thing about aviation, and if they did try and report a semblance of fact would most likely have it changed by the editor to make the situation more 'newsworthy' (ie. sensational).
The major sentence I found in that report was,
"Investigators have not released any official statement on the disaster, but Spanish media say the issue of the wing flaps came from analysis of the cockpit voice and data recordings."
Sounds pretty cut and dry to me. No official statement from the investigators means the media are making a story from snippets of information.
Best waiting for official information than discussing spanish media reports!!
Trinxat From Spain, joined Nov 2006, 143 posts, RR: 0 Reply 15, posted (1 year 1 month 3 weeks 3 days 6 hours ago) and read 17418 times:
Quoting ExSR (Reply 12): German news said this morning, that MD told all MD80 operators after the 1987 accident to include a configuration-warning-system (what a word) test into the checklists prior each take-off. This, so the pretty reliable Spiegel-news, wasn´t followed by Spanair: they only wanted the flihgtcrews to check the warning system prior the first leg of the day or after a crewchange.
It also says that a "possible excuse" for JK was that they started operations after 1987 and thus that instruction, if given to all MD users by then, would not oviously have been acknowledged by them.
Today there is a pretty interesting article in "el periodico" (Spain) that claims having had access to a draft of the investigation brief.
As said, the main cause of the crash was that the flap setting was 0 degrees during all taxiing and take off sequence.
The draft report does not conclude whether the pilots overlooked this, or instead they forgot , or applied any flap setting unsuccessfully, etc. so this question remains open
Instead it focuses on why the so-called "take-off configuration warning" (or TOWS as they name it) did not warn them on the wrong flap setting. As said, according to JK procedures the pilots did not have to test it on that flight.
As a potential possibility, it mentions too that both the system that was bypassed prior to take off (the temperature sensor probe) and this TOWS are linked to a sensor in the undercarriage that would activate both only if the aircraft was on the ground. It seems that a relay or switch (identified as R2-5) on this "gound" sensor did not transmit the information right to the two systems, thus deactivating the alarm. Another possibility would be that the bypass could have affected it
I'm no expert so please forgive any misinterpretations or mistakes in translation
Jetfuel From Australia, joined Jan 2005, 857 posts, RR: 0 Reply 18, posted (1 year 1 month 3 weeks 3 days 5 hours ago) and read 17101 times:
Quoting Breiz (Reply 17): I do not believe that Spanish pilots known to the hot and high conditions of Madrid would not check the take-off configuration of a pretty loaded ac.
I tend to agree. Probably the most crucial thing to a successful takeoff apart from having thrust. Not something you'd easily overlook. On the otherhand if something as simple as flaps has been forgotten then there's some serious issues here
Acelanzarote From Spain, joined exactly 4 years ago today! , 485 posts, RR: 1 Reply 19, posted (1 year 1 month 3 weeks 3 days 5 hours ago) and read 16993 times:
I agree, but they where in a rush and perhaps thinking about making time up or
getting back home etc etc....
If its proved to be Pilot error and Spanair are at fault with there systems
in place etc this will hardly help Spanair who seem at the minute to
be close to the end... Shame as have really enjoyed my flights with them..
Hope they can get sorted..
cheers
from the Island with sun and great photo's.. Why not visit Lanzarote
Manfredj From United States, joined Mar 2007, 796 posts, RR: 0 Reply 20, posted (1 year 1 month 3 weeks 3 days 5 hours ago) and read 16905 times:
I would think this accident is a pretty cut and dry situation. Investigators would be able to tell if the a/c was in correct takeoff configuration by viewing the wreckage. If it wasn't, it was either a false indicator or the pilots never attempted to lower them.
Spacecadet From United States, joined Sep 2001, 2038 posts, RR: 19 Reply 21, posted (1 year 1 month 3 weeks 3 days 5 hours ago) and read 16808 times:
Quoting Danny (Reply 11): It seems that we are not clear if flaps were selected but failed or the pilots failed to set flaps for take off.
Think about what you're suggesting.
Someone explain to me what failure mode would both keep the flaps retracted when they're selected extended, *and* show them extended on the gauge when they're not. (*Plus* the failure of the configuration warning system.) That's three separate failures of separate systems, any of which alone could cause a crash. You may as well suggest that both engines had failed spontaneously and simultaneously from different causes, or that the gear collapsed at the same time as an electrical fire broke out in the cockpit. It's beyond unlikely. No, not impossible, but there are way more likely scenarios.
It's a lot more likely that the pilots did not run through the checklist the second time out, and did not set or check the flap settings. It's not the first time it's happened, and humans do make mistakes, especially in stressful situations and especially when they might have thought the checklist might have already been completed earlier.
But yes, we still have to wait and see for sure. I just don't think it's particularly helpful to give people what I believe is false hope that it was this one-in-a-trillion simultaneous triple failure of critical systems, when human error is a lot more likely.
I'm tired of being a wanna-be league bowler. I wanna be a league bowler!
D L X From United States, joined May 1999, 7744 posts, RR: 54 Reply 22, posted (1 year 1 month 3 weeks 3 days 5 hours ago) and read 16660 times:
Quoting Pmk (Reply 14): This sounds all too similar to Northwest flight 255 in 1987.
I was thinking the exact same thing.
The only difference I see initially is that NW255 did get off the ground, and was climbing albeit VERY slowly. Had it not hit the light standards over the parking lot beyond the runway, it might have climbed all the way out. That leads me to wonder what was it that brought the Spanair plane back down if it was on its way up? A stall in one wing?
Certosino From Italy, joined Aug 2008, 3 posts, RR: 0 Reply 23, posted (1 year 1 month 3 weeks 3 days 4 hours ago) and read 16160 times:
Remember that there was a wind of tail the day of the accident, very next to the granted limit for a sure take-off: this has made even more difficult the manoeuvre and it could have deceived the pilots, that could have thought about the wind and not to the lack of flaps which cause of the long run to take off (500 meters more than in normal conditions, it seems me).
Woody71 From United States, joined Jun 2008, 85 posts, RR: 0 Reply 24, posted (1 year 1 month 3 weeks 3 days 4 hours ago) and read 15427 times:
Didn't I read in a previous thread that the pilots retracted the flaps when the plane taxied back to the gate for repairs? Is it possible then that with the passing of time in making the repair and the pressure to get the a/c to its destination that they just forgot that they reconfigured the wings?
666Wizard From United Kingdom, joined Feb 2005, 36 posts, RR: 0 Reply 25, posted (1 year 1 month 3 weeks 3 days 3 hours ago) and read 14642 times:
The article has been revised again..
"Deadly precedent
The draft report said that Spanair did not rigorously follow advice from the plane's manufacturers to check the flap deployment warning signal.
Following an MD82 crash in the US city of Detroit in 1987, which killed 154 people, McDonnell-Douglas (now part of Boeing) advised that flap and slats indicator systems be checked before each flight.
However, Spanair only carried out checks on the system before the first flight of each day or when the pilot and co-pilot was changed, the draft report said.
The pair in control of the plane had already taken it from Barcelona to Madrid on the morning of the accident without incident, and were not under orders to check the systems before beginning their next flight, the draft report said.
Investigators have not released any official statement on the disaster, and Spanish Interior Minister Alfredo Perez Rubalcaba told Spanish TV the government would not comment until the investigation had been completed.
"In my experience an accident doesn't happen for a single reason," he said.
"We are going to wait for the report to be finished to find out what happened because there are many theories," Mr Rubalcaba added."
[Edited 2008-09-16 10:28:23]
LHR-ORD-CLT-ORD-DEN-SFO-LAX-SYD-LAX-IAD-LHR, approx 28,500 miles, all in 10 days!
26 Max777geek: Not on md80s : there's a warning "flaps disagree" when a value is set in the cockpit handle but the flaps extension is different, if even.
27 R2rho: The thread title is misleading, but then again so is the BBC article. Hence I guess the numerous revisions it has undergone throughout the day. It quo
28 Ahtohob346: Here you can find the link of the Draft report: http://www.cadenaser.com/csermedia/c...na/20080916csrcsrnac_1_Pes_PDF.doc (In Spanish)
29 Spacecadet: It's a little more than media speculation. It's the result of an official "leak". Sometimes these leaks are intentional, other times not, but a newsp
30 BuyantUkhaa: Thanks for posting. Interesting leak!
31 AirNZ: What a nonsense statement from someone who should allegedly know better.
32 413X3: Is there a warning in the MD-80 like other aircraft when putting the throttles to takeoff thrust and certain elements such as flaps, trim, etc are not
33 TodaReisinger: Why would an airline blame its own pilots....? The airline's responsibility would be total, also from a "moral" point of view. If this is true, it wo
34 Nomadd22: If mechanics pulled the breaker to disable the bad temp probe while they were troubleshooting it, and left it off, it would disable the no flaps warni
35 SQ325: Because it is easier! Human error causes 99% of all accidents in aviation. They won' t say "ah we didn' t follow the advices from MD because we thoug
36 Spacecadet: Yes. And this is what happened to Northwest 255 and this is why the recommendation is to check it before each flight. However, that would not be the
37 ULMFlyer: Reading the leaked preliminary report in Spanish (not my native language but close enough), here is a summary of findings that I hope will help the th
38 FLALEFTY: Great post! It appears that "Murphy's Law" was in play here. The unlucky pilots were having to deal with the stress of an RTO and a maintenance check
39 Okie73: while the investigators will and should look into the failure of the takeoff warning system, the failure of this system is not the cause of the crash
40 Scramjetter: I haven't seen many photos from the Spanair crash. Was the cockpit relatively intact? There is no mention in the article as to whether or not the flap
41 Flyboy2001: Hmm, it wouldn't be the first time, would it? Still, I am in total agreement with those who say we should wait for official information... leaked inf
42 AirWillie6475: This is more than likely a repeat of the 1987 crash. I talked with one MD80 pilot apparently when taxiing single engine, as most airlines do now, the
43 Farzan: Wow, is that even possible? Without jumping to conclusions, it appears that airline procedures could be an important factor in the cause. Now as a Sc
44 Wjcandee: Here's a thought: if the crew is sloppy enough not to do the portion(s) of the checklist(s) that involve the setting and checking of the flaps, they'r
45 T prop: I read something interesting on another forum, it was a scenario written by a pilot who is familiar with the MD 80 series aircraft. Apparently it is
46 Farzan: This thread is getting quite technical, but no doubt interesting. Excuse my ignorance but what is RAT and what is OAT? Also, I was not aware that the
47 Trinxat: Just to add more confusion, also today as per reports in spanish media (sorry, again) seemingly this recommendation was not enforced as mandatory (no
48 MacDacFlyer: I hold a DC-10 type rating, and I can tell you all that the DC-10 takeoff waning horn does not sound for flaps being retracted. It will only sound if
49 MacDacFlyer: RAT is Ram Air Temperature and OAT is Outside Air Temperature In the DC-10 the RAT is actually called TAT or Total Air Temperature, which are really
50 Acabgd: Why is it so hard for some people to use Google or whatever other search engine they prefer? RAT: Ram Air Temperature probe OAT: Outside Air Temperat
51 BuyantUkhaa: That sounds like an awfully plausible scenario....
52 Woody71: That was completely unnecessary. I thought the whole point of on-line forums was the exchange of information and knowledge.
53 Farzan: Thanks MacDacFlyer, Did you try it? According to google RAT is a potentional nasty little animal thing, but I guess you are all familiar with that.
54 Okie73: The takeoff warning on the MD-80 (at least the MD-88) is for Brakes, Autobrakes, Spoilers, Autospoilers, Flaps, Slats, Horizontal Stabilizer.
55 YYZYYT: This discussion is taking some interesting turns now... This is why I love a.net. Yes, one had to wade through 500 posts that added little info (or wo
56 Woody71: This is the most interesting thing I've read so far about this tragic crash. So if mx forgot to close the breaker, then the plane returned to the gat
57 Spacecadet: It depends. There are many systems on an aircraft; to check them all before each flight would be impossible. So the pilots check what they're suppose
58 Dragon6172: This crew could have checked the warning horns prior to this flight anyhow. They check them, taxi out, have a problem with the RAT, return to the gate
59 DeC: Only the post above you (Reply 49) was way more helpful than yours. If that's all true, it maybe VERY involved with what happened here. So unfortunat
60 Jmbarros12: A video of the accident was released today by El País. http://www.elpais.com/videos/espana/...as/elppgl/20080918elpepunac_8/Ves/ The video clearly sh
61 Mandala499: Well that video can probably explain why reversers were suspected to be deployed.... Geez, didn't know the ravine was that deep... the angle really sh
64 PGNCS: You cannot see the wings from the cockpit in an MD-80. And you are right: it does. Whether it worked or not is a different question altogether. Again
65 Trinxat: Well, yes, but you can also say that if tyhe warning horn had worked, this plane would still be flying today, flaps initially set or not Isn't it the
66 MD11Engineer: Simple answer: Yes. On various Boeing aircraft I have worked on (B727, B737-200, B737 Classic, B737NG, B747 Classic, B757, B767) you can very easily
67 R2rho: I am concerned about all that is going on around the investigation: reports and videos constantly being leaked to the press, the media and politicians
68 DeC: Of course all the investigators can do their job 'cause the videos / reports getting published is a way to gain more control over the truth since thi
69 DeC: Video from other angles: http://www.mitele.telecinco.es/informativos/sociedad/44907.shtml
70 Starlionblue: The flying public couldn't find the front end of the aircraft with a drawing. They have already forgotten the accident apart from vague notions like
71 EZEIZA: Excellent reply ! I'm amazed at how people spend the time to post stuff like "look it up" which takes the same time to explain it! anyway ... This cr
72 EZEIZA: " target=_blank>http://www.mitele.telecinco.es/infor...shtml If I'm not mistaken this feed is from the twr at T4S? From where is the other video film
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