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Airlines Are Trying  
User currently offlineC5LOAD From United States of America, joined Sep 2008, 917 posts, RR: 0
Posted (5 years 7 months 2 days 16 hours ago) and read 1984 times:

I'm sure that there are others that will agree with me (hopefully!), but in the post 9/11 word of air travel, I believe that the legacy airlines are trying to meet customer expectations, despite all of the negative factors that are against them, including sky high fuel prices, time constraints and having an airplane full of pax. My father has been a pilot for NW (DC-9) and he has endured numerous pay cuts and in my opinion air crews are not getting paid nearly what they were or what they used to for the troubles they put up with on a daily basis. Whenever I fly I always fly legacy and at the end of every flight I make sure I thank the crew for doing what they do, because for what they get, they don't have to put up with the crap they put up with. IMHO, I think a little more attention should be paid on apprectiating that that the crew gets you there safely, and not on the fact that they don't treat you like a king.


"But this airplane has 4 engines, it's an entirely different kind of flying! Altogether"
11 replies: All unread, jump to last
 
User currently offlineMileHighFlyer From Canada, joined Feb 2008, 55 posts, RR: 0
Reply 1, posted (5 years 7 months 2 days 15 hours ago) and read 1814 times:

Hi C5LOAD,
I completely agree with you. My Dad is a pilot with Air Canada and he has had to put up with lots of crap to get to where he is now. I always make sure I thank the FA's when I exit the plane. It's common courtesy.


User currently offlineBond007 From United States of America, joined Mar 2005, 5341 posts, RR: 8
Reply 2, posted (5 years 7 months 2 days 14 hours ago) and read 1770 times:



Quoting C5LOAD (Thread starter):
I believe that the legacy airlines are trying to meet customer expectations,

Then we'll have to disagree. The legacy airlines mostly have appalling customer service, ridiculous pricing programs, and overall a far poorer product as each year passes.

BTW, 9/11 has little to do with anything that is happening now in the airline industry. It affected airlines immediately after 9/11 for a short-time only. Many airlines were in trouble way before 9/11 happened.

Quoting C5LOAD (Thread starter):
despite all of the negative factors that are against them, including .... having an airplane full of pax

Ummm .... this is a negative??

Quoting C5LOAD (Thread starter):
and not on the fact that they don't treat you like a king.

I don't think many pax want to be treated 'like a king'. They want to be treated like a valued customer .. which is exactly what they are.

Quoting C5LOAD (Thread starter):
I make sure I thank the crew for doing what they do,

Me too. It has nothing to do with your other statements regarding meeting expectations.

Quoting C5LOAD (Thread starter):
because for what they get, they don't have to put up with the crap they put up with.

They absolutely do have to put up with it.... it's part of their job. The problem is that many F/As, Gate Agents, etc., seem to forget that they are in the customer service business. If you can't handle irate, complaining pax ... much due to the airline's own problems ... then get a 9-5 office job where you don't deal with customers.

Jimbo



I'd rather be on the ground wishing I was in the air, than in the air wishing I was on the ground!
User currently offlinePanAm747 From United States of America, joined Feb 2004, 4242 posts, RR: 9
Reply 3, posted (5 years 7 months 2 days 14 hours ago) and read 1755 times:

No one goes into the airline industry unless they love the concept AND they have clear expectations of what the job provides and what it does not.

Unfortunately, I think most legacy carriers' upper level management is too far removed from the day-to-day running of the airline. I say this because too many airlines are desperate for short term rewards for investors that come at the expense of the long-term viability of the airline. In the mad dash to make the airline look profitable, poor decisions are made and everything and everyone suffers in the long term.

Some airlines, such as Continental and Delta, have leaders that have turned their airlines around and are working to improve their long-term strategies to ensure that their companies are successful. Other airlines are managed by ivory-towered far-removed 401k-and-golden-parachute seeking managers that have no ideas on how to assist the struggling airline.

Many years ago, I worked for the largest Kingergarten-eighth grade school district in the state of California. It was the poorest district in the city, and it had more bloated administration than the Soviet Union had at its peak. It was nothing but a revolving door of administrators looking to pad their resume with the name of the district and then move on.

Administrators would come in, impose ideas that had no basis in reality, watch them fail miserably, blame the teachers, and then move on to a more prestigious district. Morale was pathetic. Teachers - the front line employees - were scapegoated at every opportunity. Anytime they made any attempt to bring change to the structure of the district, they were branded as "lazy, disloyal, and harmful to students". Underpaid in comparison to surrounding districts, the turnover rate was over 50% at most schools every year! The flight to neighboring districts was tremendous, and in the end, the district that needed the most experienced teachers had the least.

This is the state of the airline industry - "the beatings will continue until morale improves". Some airlines treat their employees as their most valuable asset, and other airlines see them as the enemy in every single situation. Name for me, please, an airline in the private sector that has been (and continues to be) successful and profitable in the long run by treating their employees like s***.

It won't happen, and if you think it can, you should not be in posession of an MBA.



Pan Am:The World's Most Experienced Airline - P(oor) S(ailor's) A(irline): San Diego's Hometown Airline-Catch Our Smile!
User currently offlineC5LOAD From United States of America, joined Sep 2008, 917 posts, RR: 0
Reply 4, posted (5 years 7 months 2 days 14 hours ago) and read 1726 times:



Quoting PanAm747 (Reply 3):
Unfortunately, I think most legacy carriers' upper level management is too far removed from the day-to-day running of the airline

. I 100% agree with you on that. They want to always make sure that they get their millions of $ in bonuses without regard to what it may do to the line employees.



"But this airplane has 4 engines, it's an entirely different kind of flying! Altogether"
User currently offline2175301 From United States of America, joined May 2007, 1022 posts, RR: 0
Reply 5, posted (5 years 7 months 2 days 5 hours ago) and read 1509 times:



Quoting C5LOAD (Thread starter):
he has endured numerous pay cuts and in my opinion air crews are not getting paid nearly what they were or what they used to for the troubles they put up with on a daily basis.

The wage/working condition issue is far from unique to the airlines. My initial thoughts when reading this line was "welcome to the real world that many of us also live in".

Quoting C5LOAD (Thread starter):
Whenever I fly I always fly legacy and at the end of every flight I make sure I thank the crew for doing what they do, because for what they get, they don't have to put up with the crap they put up with.

I almost always thank the crew and pilots and wish them a great day. That is common courtesy and shows a personal interest in other peoples well being.

But, the crew and pilots job is exactly to put up with passengers and situations; and if they don't like it then they should move on to another job (same as the rest of us). They are quite well compensated for putting up with their job (more-so than many other people in other jobs - so this argument doesn't fly with the vast majority of people outside the airlines). Unfortunately, sometimes those situation are ugly (which is not unique to the airlines). Also unfortunate is the fact that sometimes those ugly situations are self created by the crew.

Quoting C5LOAD (Thread starter):
I believe that the legacy airlines are trying to meet customer expectations,

This was your opening argument. I on thinking about it I quite disagree. The first and last customer expectation is to be treated with courtesy and respect with minimum hassles considering the situation. It is called customer service - and the Airline/support contractor employees who normally interact with the customers are being paid to meet that expectation (i.e. that is a basic part of their job function).

I believe that many of the legacy airlines do not even attempt to meet this basic customer expectation anymore (and it started going noticeably downhill by the mid 1990's). I believe that many of the legacy airline employees/contractors do not understand nor are they trained in basic customer service. Shift these employees to another customer service job in another industry with a similar level of customer contact and many would be quickly fired for inappropriate behavior to the clientele.


User currently offlineYXXMIKE From Canada, joined Apr 2008, 308 posts, RR: 0
Reply 6, posted (5 years 7 months 1 day 18 hours ago) and read 1366 times:

Interesting post, I try and fly legacies myself when I do fly within North America as for the most part I prefer to fly with AC, UA, CO etc as I find that those companies do give a good, straight forward level of customer service...yes I can see the line up of a. netters that are about to jump on me for including AC & CO in the same sentence but I enjoy the service they give as it's professional and they don't waste my time with silly jokes etc. I'll go to a comedy club or watch Dennis Leary if I want to laugh a lot!

Post 9/11 has a huge amount to do with our industry, if anyone here owns their own business can you please ask yourself what you would do with out 3 consecutive days worth of income and still paying the same huge overhead (employees, rent, taxes etc)? 9/11 changed how everyone in aviation does business and it may be a global recession to change things again; who knows really.

Always say thank-you to your crew as you depart your flight, even if it wasn't the greatest it just helps to hear that you are appreciated, I work as line crew in YVR and for a pilot or a crew to recognize my hard work makes things a bit easier.


User currently offlineBond007 From United States of America, joined Mar 2005, 5341 posts, RR: 8
Reply 7, posted (5 years 7 months 1 day 17 hours ago) and read 1323 times:



Quoting YXXMIKE (Reply 6):
Post 9/11 has a huge amount to do with our industry, if anyone here owns their own business can you please ask yourself what you would do with out 3 consecutive days worth of income and still paying the same huge overhead (employees, rent, taxes etc)? 9/11 changed how everyone in aviation does business and it may be a global recession to change things again; who knows really.

9/11 had nothing but a short term effect on the industry. It was SEVEN years ago. Three days of lost income, seven years ago, is totally insigificant. Many airlines got more than the lost income back in government bailouts.

Hey, I'm not downplaying 9/11 and it's impact on the USA and the world, by any means ... but to still blame 9/11 on the current state of the airline industry is ludicrous.

Jimbo



I'd rather be on the ground wishing I was in the air, than in the air wishing I was on the ground!
User currently offlineSsides From United States of America, joined Feb 2001, 4059 posts, RR: 21
Reply 8, posted (5 years 7 months 1 day 10 hours ago) and read 1226 times:



Quoting Bond007 (Reply 7):
9/11 had nothing but a short term effect on the industry. It was SEVEN years ago. Three days of lost income, seven years ago, is totally insigificant. Many airlines got more than the lost income back in government bailouts.

Hey, I'm not downplaying 9/11 and it's impact on the USA and the world, by any means ... but to still blame 9/11 on the current state of the airline industry is ludicrous.

There's no doubt that 9/11 had a major impact on the industry, but Bond and the other posters are correct -- blaming it for the airlines' current problems is very short-sighted.

The legacy carriers' problems stem, in my view, from four independent yet related issues:

(1) Deregulation of the airline industry (and failure of many parties to recognize the deregulated environment);
(2) Deregulation of telecoms (which has made business travel less necessary);
(3) The Internet and related competition from LCCs (which somewhat stems from airline and telecom deregulation); and
(4) The meteoric rise in oil prices.

Add to that the economic boom of the late 1990s (which was largely fueled by easy money policy at the Fed, which we're paying for now), which made the airlines and their employees think that full planes and high fares would stick around forever, combine it with lax bankruptcy laws and an antiquated air traffic system, and you have an industry that finds it very, very difficult to adjust to the times. I won't pretend to know what is needed to fix it, but something will have to be done.



"Lose" is not spelled with two o's!!!!
User currently offlineC5LOAD From United States of America, joined Sep 2008, 917 posts, RR: 0
Reply 9, posted (5 years 7 months 1 day ago) and read 1132 times:



Quoting YXXMIKE (Reply 6):
Always say thank-you to your crew as you depart your flight, even if it wasn't the greatest it just helps to hear that you are appreciated

I used to work the ramp for EV (DL Connection) and hear customers complain over such stupid things such as the weather or a/c maintenance, etc, nothing that anybody could do anything about by whining and it drives me nuts when people are like that. IMHO, it does absolutely nothing when you gripe b/c it's not going to change anything and it just gets other people pissed off at you. Just my  twocents 



"But this airplane has 4 engines, it's an entirely different kind of flying! Altogether"
User currently offlineSpacecadet From United States of America, joined Sep 2001, 3517 posts, RR: 12
Reply 10, posted (5 years 7 months 1 day ago) and read 1114 times:



Quoting C5LOAD (Thread starter):
I think a little more attention should be paid on apprectiating that that the crew gets you there safely, and not on the fact that they don't treat you like a king.

Of course, in most of the industrialized world, standards are a bit higher than that. I see no reason why they shouldn't be here too.

The flight crews I have no issues with. Cabin crews need to know that they're in a service industry.



I'm tired of being a wanna-be league bowler. I wanna be a league bowler!
User currently offlineVgnAtl747 From United States of America, joined Apr 2001, 1502 posts, RR: 2
Reply 11, posted (5 years 7 months 1 day ago) and read 1099 times:



Quoting C5LOAD (Thread starter):
I believe that the legacy airlines are trying to meet customer expectations

I would like to slightly flip that statement around. I agree with a lot of your points, but I think this should read that "a good portion of employees at legacy airlines are trying to meet customer expectations".

At Delta for example, management implemented a decent program with first point of contact, which actually empowered the agents to make decisions which actually affected the customer's experience. Now, I haven't been with Comair for almost 2 years, but I know, and have experienced many cases where the staff goes above and beyond to do what they can. I was the kind of agent that would always go above and beyond--especially in extreme scenarios.

Yes there's a lot of employees that simply show up and collect a paycheck, but I think it's the employees of the legacies (the ones who care), that should be given the credit here. Yes flight attendants, pilots and ground staff have a tough job, but it's the ones who care, the ones who after being abused by ignorant people who think they deserve better treatment, still greet everyone else with a friendly smile or a funny PA announcement that are the reason many of us still fly with legacy carriers.



Work Hard. Fly Right. Continental Airlines
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