Beaucaire From Syria, joined Sep 2003, 5252 posts, RR: 35 Posted (9 months 3 weeks 3 days 15 hours ago) and read 13856 times:
..it seems unreal quiet around the Boeing-Unions conflict- no news hit the tickers and nobody seems in a hurry to get going the production again.
I don't even mention the 787- one got used to the feeling -well one day it will eventually lift off - but for the rest of the aircraft-productivity , the strike must be costing fortunes..
So why don't they sit down and hammer out an agreement within 48 hours ? What's stopping them ?
Ssides From United States, joined Feb 2001, 3795 posts, RR: 29 Reply 1, posted (9 months 3 weeks 3 days 15 hours ago) and read 13850 times:
What's stopping them is that they're too far apart on the negotiations. The vote to strike was overwhelming, and Boeing knows that it will have to go pretty far if it wants to satisfy the union quickly. Boeing doesn't want to give up that much ground, and the strike vote was so lopsided there's no way the union will move much, either.
Therefore, the calendar becomes a negotiating tool. Boeing will bet that the rank-and-file union workers can't go much more than a month without pay, and the union will bet that Boeing doesn't want to keep losing (or deferring) revenue from its deliveries. A crude, simplistic explanation is that it's a game of chicken -- who will blink first?
In short, however, they are simply too far apart to simply "hammer things out" in a few days.
Slz396 From Belgium, joined Oct 2001, 2246 posts, RR: 17 Reply 2, posted (9 months 3 weeks 3 days 15 hours ago) and read 13845 times:
You have to understand that the weapon of an all-out industrial strike is used completely differently by the labour unions in the US than it is in the EU.
In Europe, it happens quite regularly that a strike is held during the run up to the negotiations to show the strenght and resolve of the unions and to put extra pressure on the management to give in somewhat more during the upcoming negotiations.
In the US however, industrial strikes only happen when negotiations have completely failed and all possible forms of finding a compromise agreement have already been tried.
In short: a strike comes to play much later.
Now, the consequences of this significant difference are that:
- Americans generally overestimate the importance of strikes in the EU.
Just look at the numerous threads last year about a possible strike at Airbus and EADS, which came across to our American friends here as if the unions were about to run the company to the ground, whereas they were simply holding work interruptions of a few hours.... Somehow, they just didn't understand that a strike in Europe isn't nearly such a big deal as it is in the US.
- Strikes in the US last for much longer.
In Europe it is almost unseen that a strike last for more than a few days, but in the US, strikes may drag on for weeks or even months, given the fact that all negotiating channels have been blown up before to going on strike.
To answer your question.
This Boeing strike may easily continue for the rest of the month (and beyond). The fact you don't hear a word about the management or the unions even trying to start talking again, is probably a good hint that it may last that long indeed.
If things don't get started moving again soon, it isn't even that insane to envisage the fact that Boeing might not even deliver another not-yet-almost-completely finished plane this year!
Par13del From Bahamas, joined Dec 2005, 2008 posts, RR: 3 Reply 3, posted (9 months 3 weeks 3 days 13 hours ago) and read 13761 times:
Funny one for this site, but since so many US posters seem to think that Chpt. 11 is the ideal tool to eliminate union contracts, cure all an airlines problems and make them profotable again - all evidence to the contrary UA, NW, DL, US etc. - maybe Boeing should do the same, with the Fed bailing out banks, the US Air Force wanting to punish Boeing and give primary contract to foreign companies - Lakota, Marine 1, Tanker etc - this might just sneak through either without a whimper as focus is on banks or the Fed will come to the rescue and pay the unions while Boeing concentrates on share holder value.
I do support those who said that they believe that Boeing wanted this strike, their financial folks are probably playing a balancing game, how much are we loosing on a/c delivery and late fees, versus how much this contract will cost over x number of years. One problem with that, neither cost is fixed, in the end the union contract is an estimate. Clients can cancel orders, economy dows a downturn and business in general slows down which leads Boeing to reduce staff, the only portion which may be fixed is health care, the rest all go away.
Sxf24 From United States, joined Aug 2007, 729 posts, RR: 0 Reply 4, posted (9 months 3 weeks 3 days 11 hours ago) and read 13669 times:
The union receives a 1/2 paycheck next week, a day after their insurance benefits expire. I think most IAM members may have a different perspective about their medical insurance benefits when the receive their COBRA (temporary insurance) bill next week.
The pain is certainly being felt by Boeing's suppliers and remaining employees. I think everyone wants the strike to end. Except, of course, the IAM members who are somewhere besides the picket line...
AirNZ From United Kingdom (Northern Ireland), joined Feb 2005, 2449 posts, RR: 7 Reply 5, posted (9 months 3 weeks 3 days 11 hours ago) and read 13588 times:
Quoting Sxf24 (Reply 4): Except, of course, the IAM members who are somewhere besides the picket line...
Why don't you be balanced though, and also state the obvious in that there doesn't seem to be any movement from Boeing in showing they want to end it either?
The IAM members don't have to be on a picket line, despite your effort to attempt to make some sort of point with it.
TISTPAA727 From United States, joined May 2007, 124 posts, RR: 0 Reply 7, posted (9 months 3 weeks 3 days 11 hours ago) and read 13571 times:
Quoting Sxf24 (Reply 4): The union receives a 1/2 paycheck next week,
That is really interesting. Is that because there was a half pay period worked prior to the strike? I would find it hard to believe otherwise and that Boeing would half pay workers for striking.
A10WARTHOG From United States, joined Jul 2004, 291 posts, RR: 0 Reply 9, posted (9 months 3 weeks 3 days 9 hours ago) and read 13435 times:
Quoting Sxf24 (Reply 4): The union receives a 1/2 paycheck next week, a day after their insurance benefits expire. I think most IAM members may have a different perspective about their medical insurance benefits when the receive their COBRA (temporary insurance) bill next week.
The pain is certainly being felt by Boeing's suppliers and remaining employees. I think everyone wants the strike to end. Except, of course, the IAM members who are somewhere besides the picket line...
You might need to recheck your information. The last paycheck will be for one day and it comes next week. The insurance benefits expire on after the 30 of Sept. COBRA is 100% optional. Picket duty is really not craved in stone. People come and go as they want.
Quoting AA1818 (Reply 8): Quick question, are the employees still beign paid during the strike?
Boeing only pays for the days worked prior is the 6th of Sept. On the 27th of Sept, the $150 strike checks start to come out from the union. You get one of those a week.
Sxf24 From United States, joined Aug 2007, 729 posts, RR: 0 Reply 10, posted (9 months 3 weeks 3 days 9 hours ago) and read 13403 times:
Quoting TISTPAA727 (Reply 7): That is really interesting. Is that because there was a half pay period worked prior to the strike? I would find it hard to believe otherwise and that Boeing would half pay workers for striking.
Correct. My understanding is that there is a several week lag in when checks for the pay period.
F9Animal From United States, joined Dec 2004, 3293 posts, RR: 30 Reply 12, posted (9 months 3 weeks 3 days 8 hours ago) and read 13283 times:
Quoting Clickhappy (Reply 6): Half of what? They get $150 a week, which barely fills the tank in my Range Rover.
Damn Clickhappy! You have a Range Rover? LOL! NICE!!!!!
Quoting Beaucaire (Thread starter): So why don't they sit down and hammer out an agreement within 48 hours ? What's stopping them ?
Here are the facts about what is going on. Right now, the only communication going on is through a mediator. The IAM will NOT make the call to Boeing, as they have firmly stood their ground about what it wants. They handed Boeing a proposal during the 48 hours, and Boeing has not responded with a counter proposal yet. If they think for a moment that handing over the same proposal or slightly modified proposal after 30 days will get a win, they are gravely mistaken.
Boeing has officially started negotiations with SPEEA. I do know that SPEEA is very unhappy with the start of this. Boeing is starting the same tactics they did with the IAM, and I would not be surprised if they are the next to take to the lines. The SPEEA support has been tremendous, and the once considered weak union, is really starting to show their strength.
Now, the rumors..... From good sources by the way.
Apparently Boeing benefits after 30 days. Some type of contract language to the airlines regarding work stoppage. After 30 days, they are not responsible for delays. I have heard this over and over again, but would be delighted to see a copy of that language!!!! I personally wonder what is going through the minds of the top brass at Boeing. They apparently set aside $10 Billion dollars for this. I am in no way a top brass, but I do know I would not be stupid enough to warrant a loss of that kind of cash. Let alone the costs to Boeing already in 2 weeks, the numbers are beyond sickening.
RoseFlyer From United States, joined Feb 2004, 5517 posts, RR: 24 Reply 13, posted (9 months 3 weeks 3 days 8 hours ago) and read 13233 times:
Quoting Par13del (Reply 3): Funny one for this site, but since so many US posters seem to think that Chpt. 11 is the ideal tool to eliminate union contracts, cure all an airlines problems and make them profotable again - all evidence to the contrary UA, NW, DL, US etc. - maybe Boeing should do the same, with the Fed bailing out banks, the US Air Force wanting to punish Boeing and give primary contract to foreign companies - Lakota, Marine 1, Tanker etc - this might just sneak through either without a whimper as focus is on banks or the Fed will come to the rescue and pay the unions while Boeing concentrates on share holder value.
I think it is just preposterous that a company which at its core is highly profitable would plunge itself into bankruptcy to break unions. That would not happen at Boeing. The unions are not out to kill the company. A bankruptcy is not something that anyone wants including all the investors, shareholders, executives and managers. Boeing is earning 11% margins on its products produced by IAM machinists. The IAM wanting a chunk of that is not that ridiculous.
Quoting Sxf24 (Reply 4): I think everyone wants the strike to end. Except, of course, the IAM members who are somewhere besides the picket line...
Well that means most of the IAM since there are only a dozen or so people picketing at each major location. Very little picketing at all.
Airbuske From Kenya, joined Jun 2007, 326 posts, RR: 0 Reply 14, posted (9 months 3 weeks 3 days 8 hours ago) and read 13210 times:
Quoting F9Animal (Reply 12): Apparently Boeing benefits after 30 days. Some type of contract language to the airlines regarding work stoppage. After 30 days, they are not responsible for delays.
Yeah I heard something like that as well. I think it is 45 days, but I could be wrong.
Just watch, the employees with return to work on either the 31st or 45th day lol.
Moo From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR: Reply 15, posted (9 months 3 weeks 3 days 8 hours ago) and read 13195 times:
Quoting F9Animal (Reply 12):
Apparently Boeing benefits after 30 days. Some type of contract language to the airlines regarding work stoppage. After 30 days, they are not responsible for delays.
Just to be absolutely clear, that is Boeing has no specific penalties to pay for delays caused explicitly by this strike action. Not all delays, just delays caused directly by the action.
As it would seem that the 787 is mostly caught up in the backend, with only the FAL issues to be sorted, I wouldn't think Boeing are particularly happy about a delay which essentially doesn't give them anything.
F9Animal From United States, joined Dec 2004, 3293 posts, RR: 30 Reply 16, posted (9 months 3 weeks 3 days 7 hours ago) and read 13096 times:
Quoting Airbuske (Reply 14): Yeah I heard something like that as well. I think it is 45 days, but I could be wrong.
Just watch, the employees with return to work on either the 31st or 45th day lol.
I think I have a suspicion on this too. Even the VP of Boeing said he expected the strike to last about 30 days. How can one speculate that, unless there is a reason to hold off that long. Whatever the case, I would like to see everyone get back to work soon. If Boeing really wanted this, they would have already been trying to hammer out a deal. Not a single phone call has been placed. There has to be many scratching their heads as the airframes are just sitting idle in the factories.
Quoting Moo (Reply 15): Just to be absolutely clear, that is Boeing has no specific penalties to pay for delays caused explicitly by this strike action. Not all delays, just delays caused directly by the action.
As it would seem that the 787 is mostly caught up in the backend, with only the FAL issues to be sorted, I wouldn't think Boeing are particularly happy about a delay which essentially doesn't give them anything.
There is more to this than what meets the eye. The biggest question remains.. Did Boeing need or want this strike? Without knowing what the top brass has in mind, one has to question this.
Quoting RoseFlyer (Reply 13): I think it is just preposterous that a company which at its core is highly profitable would plunge itself into bankruptcy to break unions. That would not happen at Boeing. The unions are not out to kill the company. A bankruptcy is not something that anyone wants including all the investors, shareholders, executives and managers. Boeing is earning 11% margins on its products produced by IAM machinists. The IAM wanting a chunk of that is not that ridiculous.
Very well said RoseFlyer. Not only that, but lets discuss the huge "ethics" issues involved if that is the goal of Boeing. A healthy company forcing itself to be sick would raise red flags all the way up to Washington DC. Heads would be chopped for sure.
Quoting RoseFlyer (Reply 13): Well that means most of the IAM since there are only a dozen or so people picketing at each major location. Very little picketing at all.
To be honest, most have already secured part time work. Also, the old timers are hunting, fishing, and fixing up their houses. And, the weather has been amazing. I went out for picket duty earlier this week, and just wanted to hurry up so I could get home and crack open a cold one. Today however, is showing signs of fall coming. It was darned cold last night!!!! Summer is slowly leaving us!!!
I might also point out that the scab numbers in the factories are very low. One factory alone, you can count the amount on your two hands.
Moo From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR: Reply 17, posted (9 months 3 weeks 3 days 7 hours ago) and read 13082 times:
Quoting F9Animal (Reply 16): A healthy company forcing itself to be sick would raise red flags all the way up to Washington DC.
A company that gives in to union demands for more than the least possible compensation package they can get away with can also be considered 'sick' - they are paying more than they absolutely need to for the same resource.
Imapilotaz From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR: Reply 19, posted (9 months 3 weeks 3 days 6 hours ago) and read 12942 times:
Quoting Moo (Reply 17): A company that gives in to union demands for more than the least possible compensation package they can get away with can also be considered 'sick' - they are paying more than they absolutely need to for the same resource.
More importantly this is illegal. The "Top Brass" as you call them are required by LAW to do whats in the best interest of shareholders, and if it means allowing a strike for 30-45 days in order to save money for the next 3 years, you have to weigh the pros and cons. If they just bent over and took whatever proposal the union gave them, they very likely would be sued by shareholders for gross negligence.
The likelihood that Boeing will lose any sales due to this strike is very small. So this will be a very small hiccup in the grand scheme of Boeing.
Moo From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR: Reply 20, posted (9 months 3 weeks 3 days 6 hours ago) and read 12936 times:
Quoting Sbworcs (Reply 18): I know this was probably mentioned in the other thread regarding this but can someone please tell me what the Union wants and Boeing won't offer?
Well, thats the crux - having read both the Boeing proposal and the Union guideline document, the Union seem to be extremely petty on a lot of accounts. Basically they have highlighted *anywhere* where costs to their members are increased, including costs which are basically cost-of-inflation raises.
Essentially, it seems IAM wants Boeing to eat the entire cost-of-inflation.
There are a lot of things the union are bitching about which I disagree with.
StuckInCA From United States, joined Oct 2005, 1171 posts, RR: 1 Reply 21, posted (9 months 3 weeks 3 days 6 hours ago) and read 12915 times:
I wonder how the rapidly deteriorating state of the economy (and future job market) is affecting the mentality of the striking IAM members. I would think that it should give them pause and that they should consider themselves fortunate to have jobs. Jobs with outstanding compensation.
Par13del From Bahamas, joined Dec 2005, 2008 posts, RR: 3 Reply 22, posted (9 months 3 weeks 3 days 6 hours ago) and read 12914 times:
Quoting Moo (Reply 20): Well, thats the crux - having read both the Boeing proposal and the Union guideline document, the Union seem to be extremely petty on a lot of accounts. Basically they have highlighted *anywhere* where costs to their members are increased, including costs which are basically cost-of-inflation raises
The fundamentals of the workplace also needs to be taken into account, management does not have to cross every T and dot every i, they have some built in powers which are granted because they are the employer. Union's on the other hand, have to be very specific about everything, at the end of the day, if it is not in the contract, the union has no legal grounds to stand on, they can protest without disruption to the workplace, but no one pays any attention.
Quoting RoseFlyer (Reply 13): think it is just preposterous that a company which at its core is highly profitable would plunge itself into bankruptcy to break unions.
Like you I find it preposterous, however, based on the number of employers who were doing it, the congress of the United Stated actually changed their bankruptcy laws, some say thanks to UA. NW had troubles, but they were solvent, unlike DL, they went into Chpt.11 to take advantage of the expiring law, at least so the rumours go.
AA1818 From Trinidad And Tobago, joined Feb 2006, 2575 posts, RR: 5 Reply 23, posted (9 months 3 weeks 3 days 6 hours ago) and read 12892 times:
Quoting A10WARTHOG (Reply 9):
Boeing only pays for the days worked prior is the 6th of Sept. On the 27th of Sept, the $150 strike checks start to come out from the union. You get one of those a week.
Glad to hear it's union funded. I have always marvelled every couple of years at how quick the workers at Boeing are to strike.
Quoting StuckInCA (Reply 21): I wonder how the rapidly deteriorating state of the economy (and future job market) is affecting the mentality of the striking IAM members. I would think that it should give them pause and that they should consider themselves fortunate to have jobs. Jobs with outstanding compensation.
That would be asking a lot. If they were that rational they would not strike in the first place.
Isitsafenow From United States, joined Feb 2004, 4004 posts, RR: 28 Reply 25, posted (9 months 3 weeks 3 days 5 hours ago) and read 12809 times:
Quoting Slz396 (Reply 2): This Boeing strike may easily continue for the rest of the month (and beyond). The fact you don't hear a word about the management or the unions even trying to start talking again, is probably a good hint that it may last that long indeed.
I have to agree with your comments. Looking at past Boeing strikes, this one should go until mid October before anyone even thinks about sitting down to talk, let alone settle and agree.
My guess both sides will have the union back to work the week of Thanksgiving or the first week in December.
Because of Boeing backlogs, me thinks that should be the limit.
safe
If two people agree on EVERYTHING, then one isn't necessary.
26 474218: When the company and the union sign a contract, both parties agree to abide by the contract for the entire length of the contract. So the union can n
27 AirframeAS: Don't forget that the Railway Labor Act has to also be followed before any strike can take place. There is a detailed process, IIRC, that has to be d
28 RobK: I haven't seen this posted already (apologies if it has) but here's a video from youtube showing F9Animal and his union in negotiations with Boeing :
29 Nycbjr: What does this do to the 787 time line for first flight? seems to me it's going to be very hard to see first flight before the end of year sad cause
30 413X3: I'm sorry but this is absolutely untrue. This is just another myth that perpetuates itself because people don't want to know any better
31 Moo: Dodge vs Ford Motor Company, 1919 - Michigan Supreme Court held that Henry Ford owed a duty to the shareholders of the Ford Motor Company to operate
32 413X3: they are never required to put profits in front of other things such as safety, employee benefits, etc. What's next? Suing a company because they gave
33 F9Animal: What good is a REALLY good contract, if your jobs are on the line because this REALLY good contract has language like this? Why vote in favor of a co
34 Moo: What?! WTF does democracy have anything to do with this? Stop throwing words around when they have no meaning in this context. Uhm, thats basically e
35 F9Animal: ROFL!!!!! Oh man!!!! I love how Boeing pulled out the briefcase full of cash to find the paperwork! That is priceless man! I seriously need to pass t
36 Imapilotaz: Trust me on this. I was an Officer (VP and #3 in the company) in a publicly traded company. We made the decision to shutdown and I had to lay off my
37 Ikramerica: This is an important point. Once a strike happens, there is a series of opportunities, unique to each company, that present themselves. Unions don't
38 Par13del: I'll bite, whats the deadwood equivalent that Boeing has: Wedgetail, P8, Tanker, B-767, B-747, B-748i and F, B-787, B-737? I admit that I have not ta
39 Ikramerica: As I said, each company is different, but above people explained various reasons Boeing would want a strike to go on for more than 30 days. I just ga
40 Buddys747: Did you ever think in their eyes it wasn't good? Just because you or your neighbor is paying $x dollars for benefits, only got x% raise, or lost ther
41 AirframeAS: You should never bite the hand that feeds. Look what happened to the rampers at AS and the mechanics at NW.
42 Stratosphere: I know on the surface and listening to the media I too would be inclined to say WTF? Why are you guys striking? But you don't work there do you? Neit
43 Sxf24: These are the lowest skilled (in fact, they require no skill) and lowest paid positions in IAM. Why is the Union fighting for them? Because it means
44 AirframeAS: The point I was trying to make was that anyone can be replaced tomorrow. NW and AS proved that already. And, Strato.... I don't mean any disrespect t
45 Par13del: You know the old sayings, there is no I in team, guess there is no we either. Good thing they have a union, imagine where they would be now if no one
46 Siromega: Thats it? If it were > 15% then I could understand the IAM point of view. Hell my electric company is regulated by our PUC for a 10% profit.
47 A10WARTHOG: So is the person that supplies me with parts, job any less important them mine. Tooling and parts are grade 3, I believe. Top out at around 27/hr. Th
48 Stratofortress: It's my understanding that Union was offered an option to COMPETE for any piece of work that Boeing wanted to outsource. So if you Union was able to c
49 Ikramerica: They competed for final assembly of the 787 and won that. But it was the only part they won, and know that next time, they may not win it, because th
50 Sxf24: I didn't say less important, I said less skilled. I am primarily disgusted with the fight over outsourcing janitorial work. Kind of silly in the big
51 Stratofortress: So effectively, Union is becoming less competitive due to location, but why would I, as a shareholder, have to suffer for that. Perhaps Union needs to
52 Buddys747: stratofortress,they could outsource all jobs in the us to somewhere else, i guess that would be what all want. Your missing the point.
53 StuckInCA: You mean a contract that gives Boeing the option to contract out some jobs if they can be done at a lower cost than by the union. That's what's requi
54 Gigneil: So? We make a nearly 45% margin on many of our products and as much as 65% on others, and I am not expecting us to drive that down to 10% and give th
55 F9Animal: And Boeing is biting the hands that feed the company. It is looked at in both directions. Without the skills of the IAM workers, there would not be a
56 Tdscanuck: That's because nothing has happened since about 48 hours after they went on strike. Because they're not. IAM is in no hurry to get back to work witho
57 StuckInCA: this... and this... are pretty contradictory, no? Just because the outside vendors aren't in you pretty little union they are completely free of skill
58 F9Animal: Oh yes, I overheard a few big wigs from a company talking over lunch two days ago at one of my favorite restaurants. They were talking about all these
60 F9Animal: WTF? I have no idea what you are trying to say. I take it that your skill in sentence structure might need a little bit of work. On a side note, Boei
61 Sxf24: Emptying the trash is a low skilled job. It is also not within Boeing's core competency and has nothing to do with building planes or large scale sys
62 StuckInCA: My are has been edited to aren't. I think you know what I was saying. Don't play dumb. It's possible I'm over qualified. If the economy keeps going t
63 F9Animal: WTF??? LMAO!!! I am more confused now!!!! I thought I did!!! That was not meant to you. Earlier someone talked about outsourcing janitorial. I mentio
64 F9Animal: Sorry to hear about you and your coworkers. That is just weird. We are putting subcontractors out of work? I am sure you all had a feeling or heard w
65 StuckInCA: I think that's on you. Not me. I'm done.
66 F9Animal: I am beginning to suspect that. I am a little off my rocker at the moment, so that might explain my confusion. Me too! I think the confusion or mixed
67 Sxf24: How does a supplier save work to pay employees to do nothing when their revenue stream has dried up? With no planes going down the production line Bo
68 BlatantEcho: the one benefit the union has to the company, is generally passivising the rank and file. when you overpay the workers, and give them all the benefits
69 Flybynight: Is that the attitude you guys are having? That's a little disappointing frankly. Sounds like you're trying to "stick it to the man". I'm not pro eith
70 Imapilotaz: Unless they were wearing shirts that read "VP", "CEO", or "Big Wig" how the hell would you know what they did. Just because they are in their 40s and
71 RoseFlyer: This was sent out to all the engineers. Get ready for another strike come December, if things keep going this way... SPEEA - Boeing negotiations steer
72 Ikramerica: Yes, you got it. He's said as much before, but always claims that's not what he said. But it's the standard union thinking, drilled into any union me
73 Moo: I'm wondering if there is any possibility now of all major projects ending up with two FALs as well as two suppliers for each subsection (or one supp
74 Imapilotaz: What, you mean a guy with an IAM wrench cant sit down with a CAD program and fix all the problems of the 787? Say it isnt so! I thought IAM was the s
75 F9Animal: First off, the chatter was a dead give away. It was a meeting of sorts. I am almost positive it was a company that deals with food service. The talk
76 Pygmalion: You do know that Boeing hires its management ranks almost entirely from inside the company. All those managers you disparage were IAM members once. I
78 ER757: Not good....... Call me an optimist, but I somehow have the feeling that a strike by SPEEA will be avoided when all is said and done.
79 AirNZ: So, you are saying everyone in any employment should just keep quiet, knuckle down to anything and do as you are told? Sorry, but unless one works fo
80 Slider: Count on it. Boeing's not going to be held hostage again. MOB, CHS, etc...here they come.
81 Tdscanuck: When the strike concludes, whenever that is, it will be because Boeing and IAM reached an agreement. That is, *by definition*, what the market will b
82 Mohunk: Years ago a chemical plant I worked at locked the non-union employees in the plant, issued wrenches, etc to all the engineers, and let them run the pl
83 JoeCanuck: So what, specifically, is wrong with the wording in these two letters? You do realize they were also mocking the union. When I take a job, I take it
84 Sxf24: There are companies that specialize in facilities maintenance or delivery logistics. Boeing excels in neither. Let the companies that specialize in t
85 AirNZ: On soley a point of order I would tend to disagree with you. One can be termed low-skilled (measurable against what is the question though) but be ve
86 F9Animal: Outsourcing of jobs...... Good article about Boeing and it's outsourcing games. http://www.thenewstribune.com/opinion/othervoices/story/484625.html
87 Sxf24: " target=_blank>http://www.thenewstribune.com/opinio....html That's not an article, it is a letter to the editor.
88 Stratosphere: Yes it is but the chiefs to indians ratio rings true with most big business today especially at NWA when I worked there. We used to joke that there w
89 Sxf24: Without management to direct and execute a vision, the union members would probably still be building Stratoliners. It takes all types. Painting mana
90 Par13del: Flip side, management at AIG, Lehman Bros. Fannie Mae, Freddie Mac, etc. etc. we can go on, reality is that the persons who sweep the floors at the o
91 Sxf24: You are right, without management there would be fewer bad decisions made. Conversely, there'd be few to no decisions made period. There are certainl
92 Moo: Out of interest, what exactly do these unions think is financing every single paycheck every single worker on the 787 program got every month (until
93 AirNZ: Yes indeed, and so is many on this board who only view the employees as the problem, and continually spout the nonsense that Boeing management is inf
94 Ikramerica: I haven't read one comment that says that. Can you provide proof that anyone claimed Boeing was infallible or blameless let alone both?
95 Gigneil: That is such total and absolute bullshit the likes of which I rarely hear, even here. Boeing is a public company and everything they do is my busines
96 Par13del: So management had no role to play in all this, I think both sides are equally responsible. Take the current strike at Boeing, if you are of the opini
97 Sbworcs: The company I work for was recently sold by its owners. ALL staff had to re-apply for their jobs with the new company and were appointed on merit and
98 Par13del: Question, they build wings in Wales for Airbus, whe a new project (a/c) is announced, do sites have to submit bids, where is the efficiency in that?
99 JoeCanuck: That's obviously a gross oversimplification. Outsourcing what? I don't see anything in those letters that seems particularly out of line so I must be
100 Justloveplanes: Forgive my following ramble, but I have tried to think this union paradox through many times: There are two overall problems that I see, One is that m
101 Par13del: Workers in the US are for the most part not involved in the decisions of the company, correction, workers the world over are not. Pretty good post bu
102 AirNZ: Funningly enough, I didn't think you would. Might I suggest you really have a good read at the various threads and then actually tell me that a sizab
103 Sxf24: That wasn't a ramble - it was an excellent discussion of the core problem. Good job!
104 WarRI1: Why I have never read such bull in my life. I suggest you read the history of labor- management in this world. I cannot even begin to tell you where
105 WarRI1: I meant to say most MODERN DAY strikes. With the love affair of modern management with outsourcing, that is usually the number one underlying concern
106 WarRI1: I would have to say Outsourcing jobs until there is not enough union jobs left, so as to render the union impotent. Really!, it is not too hard of a
107 Justloveplanes: You said this teaming does not exist when in fact it does with the prime example of its implementation occuring right now, in the U.S. with the world
108 Tdscanuck: The vast majority of Boeing employees, IAM included, work on something other than the 787. Not exactly...technically, it's only your *business* (as o
109 JoeCanuck: So then, as I understand your position, that once hired, a union worker can, or should, never be replaced. If there wasn't a business case for outsou
110 Sxf24: If IAM wants a piece of the profits, why don't they buy stock?
111 474218: Isn't that called "kidnapping"? Even if you have only one share of stock you can address your concerns at the annual meeting, and they must be answer
112 Moo: Show me one program that hasn't had a period where the outgoings are greater than the incomings - did the workers get paid during those periods? Yes.
113 WarRI1: I never said that, I have seen many union workers fires and replaced., lately, millions. I am afraid the business case has been greed lately. You che
114 WarRI1: I suggest that you try it. It is so rigged that you do not have a chance in this world. It all sounds and looks fair, try it, you will get the same r
115 Justloveplanes: I think that's an excellent idea, common goals, risks and rewards. Will help align everybody. Not a cure all, but a start. Good point, Microsoft, Int
116 Sxf24: You have a lot of nice, catchy one liners, but you fail to answer the basic, fundamental question. How can any company cave in to union demands and g
117 4holer: Innovation? Greatness and strength? Not a result of competition. Apples and oranges. An employer? The concept I see is a group of workers who are for
118 PITIngres: More than one industry. Primary steel, the commercial bakers, and the Kroger's fiasco are just three examples of how the Pittsburgh unions of the day
119 StuckInCA: But they're fighting to take away the need to compete. They don't want to be forced into being competitive. Right? My opinion: I think all this chatt
120 Ikramerica: Yep. We were always told: "well, you just don't know the details." But my guess was that THEY didn't know the details, and were waiting for the union
121 StuckInCA: Now the IAM is encouraging striking Boeing "machinists" to apply for unemployment benefits. (admitting that they probably won't get them) I'm at a los
122 FrmrCAPCADET: Not necessarily disagreement, just a couple comments. I remember the south gloating when they took all of New England's higher paying textile jobs an
123 Sxf24: I can think of plenty of words, but they are not appropriate for a public forum. If you need/want money, go back to work! Did the IAM ever think what
124 474218: Unemployment insurance is fully paid by the employer and for a former employee to collect it the former employer must agree. Example, if you are fire
125 Ikramerica: If you can't live in the Seattle area on $150k, in a decent way, I don't know what to tell you. That's just sad, because that's over double the mediu
126 Par13del: Will be interesting to see Boeing move its factories from the North West to the South as some have suggested and see how long it will be before those
127 A10WARTHOG: As you said above there no almost no chance of getting unemployment benefits. The whole strike is like the prez. election you hear almost evertime yo
128 Ikramerica: Yep, and like the prez election, the numbers under the surface are not the same as the numbers you see in the public. Ultimately, it will be solved,
129 Stratosphere: I would find it surprising if unemployment benefits were available to strikers in this case. Several states did allow NW strikers to collect but only
130 Tdscanuck: They can. Lots of them do. However, there is no direct tie between profits and stock price, or between profits and dividends. The former is at the wh
131 474218: Several states did not allow NW strikers to collect unemployment benefits, judges ordered them to pay out the benefits. This is typical of people wit
132 Stratosphere: Yep just like the corporate friendly judge in Delaware who told NWA that they did not have to repay our preferred stock from a 1993 concession where
133 AuroraLives: uhh... so please explain pensions to me?? One negotiating point was for full pensions for spouses after the worker passed away. A realistic example c
134 FrmrCAPCADET: I have kids and friends living at various income levels in Seattle. IF you bought your house before the price run up (and prices have fallen only slig
135 StuckInCA: This is not a Seattle specific problem. On the other hand, you can live quite well in Everett or Renton on $150k per year. Then, there are plenty of
136 WarRI1: That is usually fluff thrown in to have something to talk about at the table the union knows they have no chance with that. Here where I live and els
137 Sxf24: Do you expect the competitive environment to remain unchanged going forward? This is the fundamental problem with the union: they use the past to jus
138 474218: I would think you would hate the judge?
139 Stratosphere: Hate the judge too. But I know who made the request. Ever since Checchi and Wilson took over and leveraged NWA to the hilt life for the employees has
140 Tdscanuck: I was mostly thinking of compensation = salary/wages, but even if you include pension the pension accumulation is still for the duration of the contr
141 Pygmalion: Tom, this needs to be cleared up... the thing that Boeing discontinued was NOT the survivor part of the pension, there was no change to that and Boei
142 Tdscanuck: Gotcha, thank you for the clarification. I haven't been following the minutae of the IAM contract language closely enough to realize the distinction
143 JoeCanuck: If you bothered to read all of what I wrote, you would have concluded that my point was that I expect the company to do whatever they deem best for t
144 Sxf24: I think it would help if we all admit Boeing's third and fourth quarter earnings guidance is likely shot, perhaps even without the strike. However, t
145 Par13del: Shocked that the EU members of A.net allowed this one to go without comment, always thought that they advised that EADS was a for profit company. If
146 Sxf24: Airbus' profit margins have been SIGNIFICANTLY lower than Boeing's. If you talk to many airlines, this is partially the result of very agressive pric
147 Tdscanuck: Except it's not the best contract in the aviation industry (not by quite a long shot, actually). I agree with you that that is Boeing's position, but
148 Ikramerica: In the EU, healthcare is paid for by the governments through taxes, so it's not a direct expense for the company. It's why big business in the USA is
149 Sxf24: Who has a better contract and what specifically about it is better?
150 WarRI1: I can say that I think that is a wise decision on your part and under your circumstances. As far as working a union job, strikes are part of the life
151 WarRI1: I am retired and I would like to know who is taking all that money out of my pension, savings earnings and SS. and Medicare. I am not rich, so I woul
152 Tdscanuck: WestJet has a considerably better profit-sharing system (and better healthcare, although that's not the company's issue for them). Virtually all Airb
153 Astuteman: It is a bit of a broad brush. But it's interesting to ask which firm has suffered more from strike action in the past 3 years or so - Airbus or Boein
154 Sxf24: I don't think WestJet or Emirates can be compared to Boeing (plus, total compensation would be less for almost all of their employees). What is Airbu
155 474218: Better contract: Northrop employees are non-union and get comparable pay and benefits as Boeing. Delta mechanics are non-union and get comparable pay
156 Bennett123: However, in Europe, the cost of health affects taxes paid by firms and their staff. Swings and roundabouts.
157 MCIGuy: AFAIK, "pro" wrestling is the only other profession that does that.
158 F9Animal: http://www.dailymotion.com/video/x6u...rbusboeing-workers-solidarity_news Oh man, this video is great! AMEN to those on the other side of the pond! I
159 Gigneil: I get worked up over unions, I've watched them destroy a number of companies and seen friends and family that were members - by no choice of their ow
160 F9Animal: Thugs? Organized Crime? Oh man, I better call the police and report this immediately! I bet those UNION Police Officers will nail those Organized Cri
161 Tdscanuck: I doubt that WestJet or Emirates have many minimum wage jobs...IAM has lots. I'm not at all sure that total compensation would be less for "almost al
162 ZKEYE: Have you never seen a "UNION" guy back away from a task because its not in his contract? You are undermining your argument here. John
163 Ikramerica: I have. And pressure others to do the same.
164 Sxf24: Because the majority of members vote however the union leaders or their friends tell them to. I have yet to find a member (or hear a union leader) wh
165 AirNZ: I would respectively disagree in that 'better' is most definately subjective. ndeed, this is bourne out by your "understanding"......ie, that is what
166 474218: Let me tell you a story about "thats not in my contract". When I was a production supervisor I had a crew that had flight controls riggers, structure
167 F9Animal: Have you seen the IAM contract? You can work outside of your labor grade for 4 hours. So, I have yet to have been able to say, "I can't do that, beca
169 Gigneil: The vast majority of the ones I know, have worked with, and encounter do not. That ESPECIALLY includes a lot of the forces you mentioned. NS
170 Gigneil: EXACTLY correct. Union members follow their corrupt leadership and the corrupt elements in your brotherhood. If you think I'm personally opposed to t
171 Alias1024: Why do those non-union employees get comparable pay and benefits? Hint: It's because of those union contracts at their competitors. When the union sh
172 474218: But like I said, they get comparable wages and benefits without paying dues, worrying about a strike every three years and having to call each other
173 Sxf24: I get better pay and good benefits because I have marketable skills and negotiated my salary with my employer. I also work hard and get regular raise
174 Gigneil: Far stronger. Also, companies with non-union workers post stronger margins, offer vastly better health benefits, and are generally more international
175 WarRI1: You are absolutely correct, it is a favorite tactic of companies. we all know how generous companies are without union wage pressure, anyone who thin
176 StuckInCA: I've, as an engineer, been written up for carrying a box down a hallway. "That's union work." I've known union members leave during work hours and go
177 RedChili: One thing I don't understand about this strike is how they can continue bickering about small details in the contract when the whole US economy is on
178 F9Animal: Here is the latest info that I have. Many of us are hearing that Boeing is finally starting to get caught up from the vendors. Also, supposedly Boeing
179 WarRI1: After 42 years in union jobs, 36 in one job, I thought I had heard all the ridiculous comments about union workers. That has to be the topper. what w
180 Sxf24: Where have all of your coworkers secured jobs? If you all had this type of work waiting, why'd put up with Boeing to begin with? If you all have supp
181 Mariner: Not this one. I owe a great deal of my present lifestyle to my guild - my union. Without that union, I would not have received many of the benefits I
182 WarRI1: When a company in the US asks for a favor such as I experianced many time in my career, when the favor is done, that favor is forgotten by management
183 474218: At one time we were not allowed to remove anything from the printer or use the fax machine. Those were union jobs? Personal printers at each desk too
184 WarRI1: Amen Brother, I could not agree with you more, I never believed in putting my welfare in the hands of another human being without protection, the Uni
185 RedChili: Believe me, I know all about that. I had an employer that I worked for around the clock, year after year, sacrificing a lot of vacations, weekends, b
186 WarRI1: 1. For a good worker, it is not hard to find a job. 2. Not the same type of work, I am sure. 3. Never put all your eggs in one basket. We will see ho
187 Sxf24: Where are these jobs? Unemployment is at record highs in Washington? Plus, if jobs were so readily available, and the Boeing compensation was so bad,
188 WarRI1: That does sound familiar to me. they all have that, "What have you done for me lately?" attitude at one time or another. Leaves a bitter taste for a
189 Sxf24: What have you done for me? The worker shows up and gets a paycheck. End of story.
190 WarRI1: I am not saying you will get a good paying job, but if you want to you can get work. It is hard to explain to a non-union worker, you have pay standa
191 Tdscanuck: Then you haven't looked very hard. There are several dozen out by Boeing Field every day, and every one I've talked to has knowledge of the takeaways
192 WarRI1: Wrong! Many people take pride in their work, why? in this day and age puzzles me, but it is true. The days of craftsmen and craftmanship has nearly b
193 WarRI1: Like a breath of fresh air in this debate, well stated.
194 Sxf24: What have you given up? You continue to receive raises, bonuses, more retirement benefits and a consistent percentage of healthcare costs. "Want it b
195 NWAESC: Extreme examples to be sure. Do not paint all of us in unions with that same broad brush. Same here. I think that's pretty much universal (at least i
196 474218: But its the fact that the union protects that 0.1% that shows the union in a bad light. In a non-union shop slackers and malcontents are quickly weed
197 Nwaesc: Remember, it's the company not the union who does the hiring/firing. If, by chance, they've hired a dud that's what the probationary period is for. A
198 F9Animal: Those that are topped out have plenty of money saved. Those that have suffered on $11-$14 an hour have secured work elsewhere, or gotten temp jobs. P
199 Stratosphere: Not always..You would be surprised. I work with just as many if not more slackers and malcontents now than I did at NWA and we are non-union. I think
200 WarRI1: Exactly, by paying union dues, the union is required to give you EQUAL protection. You do know what that means all of you who are union bashers? You
201 WarRI1: Now that is the reality of it all. there are slackers, non-union, union and certainly in management. A human trait.
202 JoeCanuck: I raise the point again; if life is so good without Boeing, why work there at all? Everything you've stated here shows you hate the company. Why work
203 ER757: I would be very surprised if this happened. It would take a long, long time to fill all the positions with people skilled enough to do the jobs corre
204 StuckInCA: I'm certainly not convinced that Boeing will try to break the union, but if they do, I think that a decent number of the union guys would go back to
205 AirframeAS: Can't you guys just go back to work already?!
206 F9Animal: Which is what Boeing would love to have happen. The leadership at Boeing tried to screw us over, tried to break us apart, tried to divide us, and we
207 StuckInCA: This sentence is pretty symbolic of the entire problem here. It's YOUR damn 787. YOU work for Boeing. YOU should care about the 787 and how Boeing is
208 F9Animal: WE fixed what Boeing brought to us. A HUGE mess. We do care, of course. We FIXED most of the problems brought to us. But, obviously Boeing execs shou
209 StuckInCA: They they they. Boeing they boeing. You work for them, right? At least in the sense that they pay you (when you aren't on strike). You ARE Boeing. Bo
210 LAXintl: I understand the Boeing sales people are out meeting with customers explaining the companies position on the strike, and the general feeling amongst t
211 Ikramerica: It's been over a year and the plane isn't flying. And now your strike is delaying it further. Sorry to break it to you, but had Boeing instead just f
212 F9Animal: And one day, the American dream will be a nightmare. I have a feeling the nightmare we face at this very moment in the good old USA has something to
213 MD-90: Sheer fantasy. With political contributions to politicians' campaigns over many decades, the IAM would be NOTHING without government-favored status b
214 F9Animal: I got to thinking about your statement, and realized how wrong your first paragraph is. The customers don't give a rats ass about Boeing's potential
215 LAXintl: F9, I hate to say it however America and American workers are not gods gift either to the planet. I have a friend that works for Toyota America's at t
216 Sxf24: It is your job to assemble planes. Boeing executives show gratitude by continuing to offer you a employment, a paycheck every two weeks, regular rais
217 Tdscanuck: Whoa now...yes, the 787 was more outsourced than any 7x7 aircraft, but it's not like they farmed the entire thing out. Manufacturing went out by some
218 RedChili: Well, read the paragraph below and tell me whether this is the Samson strike... What was the challenge? Install a few Home Depot parts, make the asse
219 JoeCanuck: Wow...have you heard of xenophobia? That's pretty insulting to 1/3 of the population of the earth and the two fastest growing economies on the planet
220 2175301: Unfortunately, this is very true. In the late 1990's I was the ISO 9000 QA manager at a foundry and machine shop. Very educational, and it really sha
221 Moo: Yes, because we all know everything made in the US is 100% perfect, and no deaths have ever resulted from anything the originated within your borders
222 Tdscanuck: I think you've swallowed a little too much hype about final assembly. The IAM mechanics (and SPEEA engineers and non-unions managers and everyone els
223 F9Animal: You obviously know nothing about the 787, and the mess that was presented to us. We had to tear the plane apart, and pretty much rebuild it from the
224 LAXintl: Good for you. Just understand in many cases you will not be getting the best overall product quality or value. For me, I'll stick to buying what I in
225 F9Animal: I totally understand where you are coming from. I was just raised that way, and raised around unions. For example, when I travel out of the country.
226 Sxf24: Showing gratitude? I'm not sure what you mean, since the strike is going to drive some suppliers our of business. That doesn't sound like gratitude t
227 F9Animal: Yup, thugs for life. 2PAC would be proud. It is hard thuggin it, ya know hommie? LMAO! Why not come to the picket line and share some of your thought
228 FrmrCAPCADET: As others have said, none of these Toyota plants are union. (not that GM and Ford are any better) His summary is worth reading. Note: my view of Seat
229 LAXintl: Right. The point being that the American worker is no better (and in many cases worse) then what can be had overseas. So F9Animals point that 'Made i
230 JoeCanuck: I don't quite get your math. While it may take 6 months or so to erode the 20 some thousand Boeing is offering, it won't take more than a month to er
231 StuckInCA: You're really not impressing anyone. You're coming across very badly and if I were more descriptive the post would surely get deleted. To describe ot
232 Sxf24: Any increase - at this point - will certainly be smaller than the lost wages.
233 F9Animal: Hey now, you are welcome to come and visit my picket line. Just bring your lunch.
234 RedChili: I was not trying to criticise the assembly problems, but I didn't like the tone of his post. Paraphrasing, he was generally saying: "Everybody else m
235 RedChili: On second thought, I could phrase my answer in a better way: F9Animal's talk of "outsourced scab vendors" indicates to me that he does not understand
236 Brilondon: I have to say something here. Although I am against unions, what you are talking about is a minority of incidents. The vast majority of union members
237 StuckInCA: Where did I say that's what I think of all union members? Don't put words in my mouth. I completely agree that it is a minority. These, however, are
238 474218: I did the math in another thread but lets look at it again. I made it simple so everyone could understand it: You make $10 and hour or $400 a week, c
239 BoeingBus: It's a lose - lose situation for both parties. Nobody is a winner here however if the sticking point is about outsourcing, than its my opinion the str
240 WarRI1: Why the unemployment line? are you unemployed also, like so many others in this country because of the outsourcing of jobs to low wage countries, how
241 StuckInCA: Are you suggesting that if more workers were in unions and demanded things such as defined pensions that the economy would be in better shape?
242 ER757: I've got a bit of a problem with your statements here. I seem to remember quite vividly that Boeing management forced HUGE concessions in the form of
243 WarRI1: Does that apply to union and management workers equally? Well now, can anyone expect to be happy when their job is outsourced as Boeing is slowly doi
244 StuckInCA: By "things like that" do you mean RV's, boats, and ORV's? Most of the Boeing "machinists" aren't starving. I mean if it were this epic noble struggle
245 WarRI1: You got that right. I think the headlines in the papers every day, give credance to that. It would seem that with the advent of mass college educatio
246 BoeingBus: I would support the mechanics or unions if Boeing somehow invented outsourcing and its something new to all Americans. But the fact remains that ever
247 StuckInCA: What bill, exactly? They should have the balls to aqcuire skills and education that enable them to secure work. They should have the balls to accept
248 WarRI1: No, and not like Yachts, million dollar RV's multi-mansions and supersize salaries. Of course everything is according to ones means. I have to wonder
249 2175301: I disagree with your characterization. A company exist first to make profits for its investors so those investors can support their families and life
250 WarRI1: And who do you think championed this global economy? "we have seen the enemy and they is us" (Pogo comic strip) Who did nothing about all this outsou
251 StuckInCA: I'm sure there were some crusty old farriers whining 100 years ago about the "no balls" younger generation and their damn Model T's too. I didn't inv
252 Brilondon: This is a very ignorant statement. If it were not for these unproductive managers, there would be no jobs for the unions to have.
253 OA412: Quoting Gigneil (Reply 159): get worked up over unions, I've watched them destroy a number of companies I hope you get similarly worked up over those
254 WarRI1: Very well written, but, I certainly do not agree with this view of a company. Yes it is out to make money, we worker bees would not have a job. Makes
255 WarRI1: Quoting WarRI1 (Reply 248): I think management is classed as non-productive aren't they? This is a very ignorant statement. If it were not for these u
256 F9Animal: You anti union people are the exact reason why the United States is in such financial crisis. You would rather outsource everything. Company after com
257 WarRI1: There you go, you have discovered the modern day ethic of the modern day Robber Barons, you have read about them I am sure? WORK FOR LESS. Excites me
258 WarRI1: [quote=OA412,reply=253]Frankly, I don't know where all this hatred for unions by you and others comes from. The very idea that they are single-handedl
259 StuckInCA: A little militant, don't you think? I don't work at Walmart. I don't shop there either. I'm confused as to why grasping the realities of the global m
260 Stratosphere: Just remember Animal I know you support the iam and are a good union guy but the iam did SCAB my strike. Our strike was just as important to my famil
261 WarRI1: I am afraid you have been drinking the COOLAID. I think the term "Obtuse" may apply here and I am not saying that about the Union supporters on this
262 Sxf24: I will be unemployed if the IAM strikes long enough. Boeing, and other companies, source to foreign suppliers for two reasons. 1) for lower costs/hig
263 Stratosphere: Yes they are and a lot are not happy with it either..Ever try to get tech support from say Dell computers or I can name some others..You get hooked u
264 JoeCanuck: . We might cloak iam's strike in the same terms. It all depends on ones perspective. Outsourcing isn't always international. There are skilled worker
265 Astuteman: I challenge anyone to find a circumstance where a long strike has been anything other than "lose-lose" The first issue I have with that statement is
267 MD-90: And why should any "public" employees have unions? Government employees have unions solely to extract more money from the public purse. For example,
268 Par13del: Flip side of your question, why do Govt. jobs require special legislation from the rest of the country's workforce, as in private industry? If the la
269 F9Animal: Lets review. 1+1=2. 2=2+4. I could keep going. Boeing has made record profits. 13 BILLION DOLLARS...... They could lower the price of the tanker, and
270 StuckInCA: I'm basing my view on the actions and statements of the strikers themselves. The first few days of the strike all anyone was talking (in many forums,
271 WarRI1: Absolutely your right to not want to be in a union. You are also absolutely correct about the unions keeping salaries high, or wages, whatever you ca
272 2175301: I don't follow your logic here: The investors basically control how much top management (including the board of directors) are paid and their separat
273 BlatantEcho: "Boeing is just overpricing the tanker" - I believe government bids of this size are fixed margin. Listen: if you think outsourcing is new, I've got a
274 WarRI1: Of course they would, this game has been played for years, the textile mills moved South in the USA because of the greed and need of people to surviv
275 Sxf24: Boeing does not "set" the price of the tanker. Since it was a cost-plus contract, they simply provide cost data to the government who (accurately or
276 Tdscanuck: Spirit isn't the best example for you in this case...it's unionized and, functionally, it's Boeing. That wasn't outsourcing in a business sense at al
277 F9Animal: Boeing did not lose the Tanker contract. The market is still hot for commercial airplanes. Failure to execute on the 787 is the entire fault of the t
278 WarRI1: Well first of all, you are talking to one where every strike I was involved in, (Union Steward for 30 years) we made so much money in OT after the st
279 Astuteman: I certainly wasn't taking sides with that comment. It takes two to tango... IMO confrontation such as the current one is a luxury of a prospering bus
280 WarRI1: You are correct on that point, I do disagree with your Walmart ideas. We do have that right so far here, the right to disagree. for how long , who kn
281 WarRI1: I agree completly. we are coming to that fast here. Tough times if one believes the government. It is tough to do, believe the ones who are most resp
282 WarRI1: My, my, I am glad I read that before I signed off this forum. I would compliment you on that reply. I can now go through the rest of the day knowing
283 Sxf24: Boeing did lose the tanker contract to Northrop. Its since been cancelled, but that does not negate the loss. The market for commercial airplanes has
284 474218: Correct. However if the if the strike lasts just four weeks more they never break even. By not accepting the original 5% raise and holding out two mo
285 StuckInCA: Enough with the personal crap. I've read 1984 (and I thought you didn't like all that "book learning"). I don't care to be a manager and have passed
286 2175301: What conflict of interest: These people are making business decisions - not public policy. It is in their interest to ensure that their money that th
287 F9Animal: Wow, your general response to unions, must speak highly about your view on race, ethics, religion, and sexuality. I am so glad your not a cop, firefi
288 Par13del: Boeing made record profits last year, I take F9Animal point to mean that Boeing could have reduced it price for its tanker just as they can do for th
289 Tdscanuck: The original lease deal certainly wasn't cost-plus...I'm not sure that the one that was just bid out was either. Do we know for sure? It's not a give
290 4holer: The single most brainwashed statement in the history of this website. You are becoming a caricature. Racism and a personal threat of violence! Sweet!
291 StuckInCA: It would be enlightening for you to share how you make that connection. I think unions tend to protect a small minority of workers in the union who a
292 2175301: QED: Thus is proven. You just demonstrated my point about how the investors (the shareholders) provide oversight and control of the Board of Director
293 Par13del: Will be interesting to see the CEO compensation rules if any that the congress is able to put in this $700billion bail out package, the CEO of these
294 WarRI1: I would like to comment on the small minority of workers, how kind of you to admit that. Now book learning, we learn from reading books, some more th
295 RedChili: Maybe because F9 was grossly underestimating the job that others are doing? My post was merely a reaction to his post. His post was basically, "Every
296 StuckInCA: Since you worked in a union environment for 42 years, I'm curious as to when your last non-union job was? I have less experience than you, but I've w
297 WarRI1: You never see a shareholder proposal that is not recommended by the Board that has a prayer of passing. The CEO wants allies on the board so he can c
298 WarRI1: It was in high school. I then went to work in the IAM as a machinist. I ended my carreer as IBEW in a Communications local. (Telephone) Your choice a
299 F9Animal: Personal attacks? Gosh, now that is calling the kettle black. Reread what you said. You personally attacked union workers, using derogatory statement
300 StuckInCA: I, unfortunately, was dragged into it. I attacked some union workers. You interpreted my statements to mean [i]all[/]. The mullet remark was poor, bu
301 USAFDO: If Boeing already...already knew and planned on loosing $100 million a day on this strike...why did they not offer up 1 or 2 billion extra for this no
302 F9Animal: In reality, they would have lost much much more if they announced delays on aircraft. Potential loss of customers, and orders. In reality, the losses
303 F9Animal: Hold on a sec. I went over every post I had. Where in the heck did you get homophobe from? And to clairify.... I have added your post, with my respon
304 Tdscanuck: Because they'd loose much more than 1 or 2 billion in the future. Unions contracts tend to have a "rachet effect"...they only ever go up or stay flat
305 StuckInCA: What, exactly would you be talking about then? Perhaps we should take this to PM's or drop it altogether, but I honestly can't imagine what you'd hav
306 F9Animal: Your the one in arms about it. Go ahead, if you feel that it is worthy of the PM's to view. I am sure they have already read it closely, and no, it i
307 StuckInCA: Bullsh8t! That's just as much BS as most of the rest of your posts in this thread. OK. Done. Nope, it's the way you wrote it. but... it seems you do.
308 Sxf24: Boeing was never awarded the tanker contract (excluding the first, no-bid deal). I think you're trying to insinuate that Boeing will receive orders r
309 2175301: I think you need to look at the whole history. Historically IAM has almost always struck - for weeks to months. IAM just views that is the way they h
310 WarRI1: I would ask the question, how could they not just simply approve the product. I mean to say, are they qualified aircraft engineers, structual experts
311 2175301: For those who are wondering: The strike started Saturday Sept 6. It has now run for 3 weeks. I understand that the last strike in 2005 ran for 4 weeks
312 Sxf24: Exactly. The decisions regarding new airplanes are incredibly crucial and integral to the entire strategic direction of the company. While executives
313 Astuteman: That's undoubtedly correct, but the real skill in management is a) assembling the right team, b) endowing it with the right experience, training, ski
314 JoeCanuck: I make a very good living and have excellent benefits with my non union job. Bankruptcy has certainly eroded the influence of airline unions. Not rea
316 2175301: Actually, it is much worse than just the difference in pay making up for the lost wages: Boeing offered a $2500 per person Ratification bonus. Thus,
317 RedChili: So, if I get this right, and let's make an example of somebody who has a weekly salary of 100 dollars: Boeing offered: For the first year: 105 dollar
318 A10WARTHOG: The ratification bonus was more of a peace offering, since Boeing was not go to give the .40 cent COLA that everyone seems to think we have earned. B
319 474218: Ratification bonuses are standard in the industry, Lockheed Martin's IAM members were given one on at least their last two contracts, maybe more. In
320 Bennett123: F9 Animal I do not know what business you are in. In my business, if the customer signs then I have won. The fact that the whole project has been shel
321 Par13del: So is this proof that the IAM was correct when they said this was about job protection and not money?
322 JoeCanuck: Perhaps but we've been hearing a lot of 'outsourcing' rhetoric concerning American jobs moving overseas when, at least in the bits of the contract I'v
323 WarRI1: I do not quite follow, let me see now, Boeing moves your job to Alabama, it is in the United States, no doubt, maybe non-union, in Alabama, probably.
324 2175301: Yours is actually a simplification as the Union also gets about 1/2 of the cost of living each year in both cases (3% + 1/2 COLA = a substantial pay
325 WarRI1: You might have hit on something there. It looks like that to me anyway. Could the Union be telling the truth? do you mean that the union Brothers and
326 F9Animal: You are right from a business point. But, in Boeing's situation, it is a win. They lost the contract, for one... Then they challenged it.... They won
327 WarRI1: That is undoubtably correct. Maybe I did not make myself clear. when I said that, I meant in the traditional way, not directly producing the company
328 Tdscanuck: That's what accountability is...responsibility for something you, yourself, didn't actually do. It's not quite that straightforward...the signing bon
329 WarRI1: That should have read. "That is undoubtable"
330 StuckInCA: Great post. I think your "issues" are a pretty good summary. I think the statements made by IAM members in video in web forums leading up to and just
331 WarRI1: That is another one, at least we are all not thugs in the unions.I appreciate that admission. One has to be careful when money comes into the picture
332 StuckInCA: There's a pretty good read in the Seattle Times today. http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/htm...aerospace/2008212140_boeing29.html A Seattle Times analy
333 F9Animal: http://www.reuters.com/article/marketsNews/idINT31245520080930?rpc=44 Latest news I found... I have heard that nothing will come until the beginning o
334 Gsosbee: Strikers health insurance runs out today: http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/htm...7_bizbriefs30.html?syndication=rss Ensuring continuous coverage for c
335 Flybynight: Someone told me the other day that the Boeing machinest on strike are the highest paid in the industry. If that is true and they'll be getting a decen
336 AA1818: Since the unions are supporting the strikers financially, how long untill the Union runs out of funds? Very well said. This is greed on behalf of the
337 474218: Why should Boeing pay any health care costs incurred by a striking employee, they didn't pay them when they are working? They have insurance that pay
338 StuckInCA: 6 months. They only get $150 a week. Not really enough to support them, but I'm sure it helps. They would be asking for Boeing to repay their costs t
339 Gsosbee: They shouldn't; that is why the negotiations will be interesting.
340 A10WARTHOG: Historically Boeing will cover the medical cost when the workers go back to work. Now if the strike is over before the end of October and the employee
342 JoeCanuck: Right...which is why I was wondering about all the vitriol that was expressed towards foreign workers, most specifically those from China and India.
343 Tdscanuck: I don't either but, keep in mind: The guy was using *Boeing's* calculator...those are Boeing's numbers. WaMu was on the verge of bankrupcy...Boeing,
344 StuckInCA: Fair enough. I guess I accept them if the newspaper goes over them. Is anyone denying those numbers?
345 WarRI1: A comparison of wages. Boeing does not pay too well, it seems. Only $2366 for a coffee break. I kind of feel sorry for this guy. If he ever strikes,
346 F9Animal: " target=_blank>http://people.forbes.com/profile/w-j...78335 It seriously makes me sick at how much these clowns make. Not only that, how rewarded th
347 StuckInCA: So if some average joe off the floor takes the spot as CEO, you think the future of the company would be in good hands? I mean, not liking that CEO's
348 WarRI1: I hate to say this, but the massive job losses at home are due to the mania of outsourcing , so loved by higher management. It is the greed of manage
349 WarRI1: I agree, isn't that the mantra of the union bashers on here, "there are tons of people who would jump into the shoes of the Boeing strikers." I just
350 StuckInCA: How about a place like where I work. Something like 30-50% laid off over the course of the year. None due to outsourcing to different countries. We d
351 StuckInCA: Man. I wish we could set up that social experiment. I really think you'd come away surprised at how stressful a CEO job would be, how many hours it w
352 Sxf24: How can Boeing sell planes in China, Japan, India, etc. if it doesn't conform to those countries wishes and have suppliers there? What happens to Boei
353 StuckInCA: Put an IAM member in the position of VP of sales for $70 an hour. He'll sell 100,000,000,000 airplanes the first month. Those damn book learned manag
354 WarRI1: When the economy loses a well paying job through outsourcing to a foreign nation, there is a price to pay. that once well paid worker now goes to, da
355 Flybynight: So? Aren't they accurate? As I mentioned in my post, these guys are supposedly the highest paid in their position in the country. Assuming this is ac
356 F9Animal: The President Of The United States Of America makes NOWHERE close to what CEO's of these companies make. The President Of The United States makes $40
357 WarRI1: Well, I do not know about that, a good CEO delagates, he puts the stress on his team and so on down the line. If he is not successful and gets canned
358 Pygmalion: At least one of the sales guys I know used to BE in the IAM... thats the bull pucky in all of this... nearly all the Boeing managers were normal joes
359 WarRI1: You may have something there, maybe all our problems started with all this book learning replacing common sense and good old life experiances, book l
360 Astuteman: Did you mean "US economy"? I'm struggling to see how the GLOBAL economy gets affected.... I'll bet you're wrong on that one. Most management types ge
361 F9Animal: Or, they have the dream of making a Carson salary. 60-80 hours devoted to a company in hopes that it will be successful is fine. But in reality, deep
362 F9Animal: And my dream. If tomorrow, Boeing asked me to be CEO, I would jump on it in a heart beat. I would settle the strike in 24 hours, and have Boeing bankr
363 StuckInCA: You're a classic. Your dream is to bankrupt the company! Nice ethics.
364 F9Animal: Ummmmmm... Yes... A dream..... To make all the employees of Boeing rich....... I would say my ethics in that regard are not bad. Bankrupting the comp
365 WarRI1: I would say that the modern version of the global economy was kicked in the pants as far as gaining momentum by the good old US.of A. Our business le
366 Tdscanuck: They may be the first people you blame but they are not the first people you layoff. That's part of where IAM's heartburn comes from. Honestly, what
367 Astuteman: A technicality perhaps, but these two would appear to be mutually exclusive.. Rgds
368 2175301: And what happens when in 5 or 6 years the company takes a downturn because their product is not as cost effective than other product? Is the Union go
369 RedChili: So, in other words, you would steal from the owners of Boeing to give to the employees? You would steal from those people who invested their money in
370 Moo: And my opinion of you has turned out to be justified...
371 Gsosbee: No management loves to outsource. Outsourcing is difficult and expensive to manage not to mention the logistics and quality issues. Outsourcing is a
372 F9Animal: If you read my quote (knowing I was joking in the first place), you would understand that I said I would not be qualified for the job as CEO, so in o
373 Moo: Yes, I would cross the line - I don't need no union to stick up for me, I've done perfectly well thus far without being unionised. And I certainly do
374 Tdscanuck: Cutbacks. The unions and Boeing both know this...that's why IAM is fighting now when times are good. They know they'll have to give up some when time
375 WarRI1: Funny that you should mention that, one of the writers for our main newspaper, the Providence Journal just wrote an article about outsourcing, and su
376 F9Animal: So you would be proud to be a scab? Are you a scab? Scabs in any union shop are treated like garbage, and deserve to be treated like garbage. If spit
377 WarRI1: There are certain human traits that can be overlooked. I do not think someone who crosses a picket line to take a striking persons job, has any redee
378 4holer: Got some beers in ya again tonight? You sound like the guy who dumps his girlfriend, and then when she moves on and dates someone else, he shoots the
379 StuckInCA: Didn't the IAM scab the NW mechanics strike? "Now the IAM has reportedly agreed to allow some of its members to perform tasks normally done by striki
380 JoeCanuck: You're kidding right...? That's the attitude that's been sinking union powers for quite some time and that's the beauty of not working for a union. I
381 4holer: Scab Brothers and Sisters, making fine comedy; yesterday, today, and, well maybe not tomorrow, but it is pretty amusing while the union lasts. You kn
382 JayinKitsap: Those of you that follow economic history should look at two cases: a) GM, Ford, Chrysler v UAW- The UAW has had an adversarial with the big 3 for dec
383 WarRI1: That is exactly what happened, they hired the scab crews from down South, it was never done again, they screwed thing up and we made millions working
384 WarRI1: I wonder where that common sense came from? Wise words and Oh! so true.
385 Aussie747: Well it has just affected the launch date for VA (V Australia), with services delayed from the 15DEC launch to 28FEB due to their 773 delays. So Virgi
386 StuckInCA: No comment on IAM scabbing the NW strike? " target=_blank>http://www.wsws.org/articles/2005/au...shtml
387 Flybynight: I h ope that's not the reason. I really do. That's like I saying I will replace the tires on my car 20,000 miles early because I know eventually they
388 474218: I am sure in one of your posts you stated that you could stay out on strike for a long time because you (and many other strikers) have found temporar
389 AirframeAS: Oh, F9Animal... Lets not go there... Not cool..... They ruined their lives miserably by posting the replacement workers info on their website. Which
390 Tdscanuck: Not exactly. It's more like buying a spare set of tires now because the price is good, you know you'll need them in 20,000 miles, and you're not sure
391 Cmsgop: The IAM is about 30% of my business, they need to get back to work. Alot of the guy's loved the contract,then the Union said it sucked. I will tell yo
392 RedChili: This has been a deadly serious thread with not many jokes. It's not easy to understand that you're joking when you don't use smilies to inform the re
393 2175301: That is not exactly true. People do care, and do talk about the IAM. I'd even say that the IAM in general is responsible for the improvement in certa
394 WarRI1: The key to surviving a strike is preparation, like the Boy Scout motto "Be prepared" I always was and something good always came from the strike. Ple
395 WarRI1: That is one screwed up labor situation, certainly a black eye for unionism. It would seem petty politics and yes, self preservation were at play in t
397 F9Animal: Totally understand. I do have a humorous side too. Yeah, the thread is hot, but certainly not worth hating one another over. And that is what it real
398 WarRI1: I have to admit, I enjoyed everyone, be prepared for the next one as soon as you are through with the current one. It does help. Having a wife who ha
399 F9Animal: I wish I could speak on behalf of everyone involved in a strike, but I personally am not enjoying it all that much. 2 weeks it was not a bad, but now
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