Scouseflyer From United Kingdom, joined Apr 2006, 2772 posts, RR: 6 Reply 3, posted (1 year 4 months 3 weeks 3 days 2 hours ago) and read 29790 times:
If this has fianlly happenned it has brought to an end a soap opera only rivalled in aviation circles by "When will DC9s be replaced by US carriers" and "EK to order 787 or A350"
Sad for those who've lost their jobs though but there are plenty of culpable parties!
What will be interesting is that the media will almost certainly blame this on the credit crunch affecting banks ignoring that this lot have been woblling for years.
Flyingcat From United States of America, joined May 2007, 342 posts, RR: 0 Reply 4, posted (1 year 4 months 3 weeks 3 days 2 hours ago) and read 29815 times:
I believe the administrator was quoted that he would begin layoff within an hour of the deadline passing.
I wonder how Burlesconi will spin this. The last update had a quote that the approval of all unions was not needed.
He will probably come out and say thet the withdrawal is conditional or some other crap and a new deadline is in effect.
Slz396 From Belgium, joined Oct 2001, 2528 posts, RR: 21 Reply 5, posted (1 year 4 months 3 weeks 3 days 2 hours ago) and read 29635 times:
Not yet...
What is happening is that as the ultimatum to the unions to agree to the CAI (the group of investors wanting to take over AZ) expired without all unions signing up to it, CAI is said to have withdrawn their take-over offer.
This means that AZ -which is currently put under a sort of chapter 11 protection- has no alternative but to ask for the lifting of this protection and to file for bankruptcy...
However, they have to do so themselves, otherwise it can still take a while...
If they do it themselves, it could theoretically happen this evening, but they could wait a bit with it still and see what happens... It wouldn't be the first time things start to get moving AFTER an ultimatum expires.
Anyway, for the time being AZ is still flying and I don't expect AZ to just go into bankruptcy in total chaos. Okay, SR saw its pax stranded all over the world but that was because of a liquidity problem, yet once that was solved they resumed flying again and SN had a pretty good home coming scenario so all planes were on the ground in BRU before bankruptcy was filed for. Although with AZ, chaos seems to be the standard...
Anyway, If nothing happens between CAI and the unions this evening, I'd expect AZ to revert to such a kind of home-bringing scenario after which bankruptcy will be filed for the next day... Could be over by the end of this week.
Beaucaire From Syria, joined Sep 2003, 5252 posts, RR: 39 Reply 8, posted (1 year 4 months 3 weeks 3 days 2 hours ago) and read 29398 times:
ALITALIA: APPLAUSO OFFICIALS TO OFFER NEWS WITHDRAWAL CAI
(ASCA) - Milano, 18 set - Forti applausi da parte dei dipendenti Alitalia riuniti a Milano non appena arrivata la notizia del ritiro dell'offerta Cai. (ASCA) - Milan, September 18 - Strong applause from the Alitalia employees gathered in Milan as soon as the news arrived of the withdrawal of Cai. Uno cinquantina di dipendenti, tra piloti e personale di volo, tutti riuniti a Palazzo Clerici dove e' in corso l'assemblea Cai, ha accolto la notizia con forti applausi, fischi, e intonando slogan come ''via la casta, riapre l'asta'' e ''tutti a casa''. One fifty employees, including pilots and flight crews, all gathered at Palazzo Clerici where and 'being Cai Assembly, welcomed the news with loud applause, whistles, and intoning slogans such as''off the caste, reopens l' auction''and''all at home.''
What is happening is that as the ultimatum to the unions to agree to the CAI (the group of investors wanting to take over AZ) expired without all unions signing up to it, CAI is said to have withdrawn their take-over offer.
I guess its not over until its over as they say. When I read it has finally gone and fleet put to bed then I will believe it.
Slz396 From Belgium, joined Oct 2001, 2528 posts, RR: 21 Reply 10, posted (1 year 4 months 3 weeks 3 days 2 hours ago) and read 29155 times:
Quoting Breiz (Reply 7): I'm sure Berlusconi will find something.
Well he needs to do so fast, because without any offer from a plausible take-over candidate on the table, the court -which has granted AZ legal protection from bankrupcty- can always revoke this protection and declare the airline bankrupt on the spot.
Obviously this is not going to happen today or tomorrow, but it can already happen as from next week, so better is to beat the legal proceedings and either make an end to it yourelf (which is far less chaotic) or to come up with something...
On the other hand: this is Italy, where laws are made for one person (Mr. Berlusconi) where judges have been murdered and where unfavourable court rulings have been undone by politicians, so I'd love to see whether a judge actually dares to act without a demand for it from AZ first...
Anyway, this thing has to stop one way or another and soon, because I can imagine that the bookings must have come to an almost standstill and loadfactors must be really deplorable. Only those who had their ticket bought a long time ago or who are flying on corporate contract are probably still flying them..; I can't imagine anybody still taking the risk of planning to fly AZ even as soon as this weekend.
Soon7x7 From United States of America, joined May 2006, 1346 posts, RR: 2 Reply 11, posted (1 year 4 months 3 weeks 3 days 2 hours ago) and read 29158 times:
One thing to see small start ups crash and burn as they are business VENTURES for some, (not that they deserve it) however it is very sad to see a National Carrier like Alitalia faulter...Always liked to see her colors fly into JFK...As we experience some terrible economic issues here in the states, it's clear to see that a Global Economic crises exists....SAD
FlyTUITravel From United Kingdom, joined May 2007, 696 posts, RR: 0 Reply 13, posted (1 year 4 months 3 weeks 3 days 2 hours ago) and read 28955 times:
Hard to believe that this is the end. I'm not so sure!
BP1 From United States of America, joined Aug 2007, 438 posts, RR: 1 Reply 15, posted (1 year 4 months 3 weeks 3 days 1 hour ago) and read 28603 times:
Another good example of true union leadership........not
BP1
"First To Fly The A-380" / 26 October 2007 SYD-SIN Inaugural
Brilondon From Canada, joined Aug 2005, 1560 posts, RR: 0 Reply 16, posted (1 year 4 months 3 weeks 3 days 1 hour ago) and read 28607 times:
You can only send good money after bad for so long when probably the airline should have been shut down sooner than this. There will be chaos for a while but then some airline will come in and fill the void left by AZ. this is too lucrative a market to be under served.
Would AF want to come in now and operate from Italy? I don't know the laws in the EU but that would seem to be one solution.
AH332 From Algeria, joined Mar 2007, 269 posts, RR: 0 Reply 17, posted (1 year 4 months 3 weeks 3 days 1 hour ago) and read 28395 times:
Hi,
So let's say AZ does "die", what will happen to all those passengers that have traveled booked with them?
Interesting note: I was searching for fares to ALG for the winter on orbitz and expedia and it was interesting that they didn't have AZ as an option. But, just a couple weeks earlier AZ was there as a possibility.
StuckInCA From United States of America, joined Oct 2005, 1230 posts, RR: 1 Reply 18, posted (1 year 4 months 3 weeks 3 days 1 hour ago) and read 27463 times:
Quoting Slz396 (Reply 5): Anyway, for the time being AZ is still flying and I don't expect AZ to just go into bankruptcy in total chaos.
Other than the ridiculous history, why shouldn't we believe it. It's a failed business. Why should it possibly continue another minute?
Quoting Standby87 (Reply 11): Alitalia is not dead. They are still flying and will continue to fly.
Flighty From United States of America, joined Apr 2007, 4811 posts, RR: 3 Reply 19, posted (1 year 4 months 3 weeks 3 days 1 hour ago) and read 27131 times:
Alitalia is a fine name that someone else will use to run a great airline.
Why the present management and unions are allowed to hold Italian aviation hostage, is a bemusing mystery to most of us.
F9Animal From United States of America, joined Dec 2004, 3480 posts, RR: 37 Reply 20, posted (1 year 4 months 3 weeks 3 days ago) and read 26675 times:
Quoting StuckInCA (Reply 18): Other than the ridiculous history, why shouldn't we believe it. It's a failed business. Why should it possibly continue another minute?
Sure it is a failed business. But, we have seen a "failed" business recover from mismanagement in the past. AZ has a fine fleet of aircraft that can be used to make a "successful" business. There is potential out in that market, and I for one am really keeping my fingers crossed for this airline. There is alot at stake here. The livelihood of the employees, and the transportation needs in Italy alone are so important. Whatever happens, I hope they find a way through this, and get a leader that can fly them into a future.
By the way, thanks for changing the thread title!!!! I really look at this as a Rocky movie in a way. Always hoping that Rocky comes back in the last round, and comes out winning the fight after all. With all the odds against them, I sure am routing for them! I would be saddened to see them go.
Brilondon From Canada, joined Aug 2005, 1560 posts, RR: 0 Reply 23, posted (1 year 4 months 3 weeks 3 days ago) and read 26240 times:
Quoting F9Animal (Reply 20): Sure it is a failed business. But, we have seen a "failed" business recover from mismanagement in the past. AZ has a fine fleet of aircraft that can be used to make a "successful" business.
The problem is that it has a boatload of debt and the Unions don't care about anybody but themselves and don't care if the company doesn't make money with its bloated cost structure. If they were really serious about keeping the airline flying then they would work to find an equitable solution like the airlines in th U.S. did. Read making concessions. They may not make as much money but at least most of them will still be employed at the end of the day.
AZ had plenty of opportunity to save its self through AF/KL and also the other airlines that were looking to invest in it but could not get concessions from its unions.
Papoose From Italy, joined Sep 2006, 28 posts, RR: 0 Reply 24, posted (1 year 4 months 3 weeks 3 days ago) and read 26102 times:
Quoting Flighty (Reply 19): Why the present management and unions are allowed to hold Italian aviation hostage, is a bemusing mystery to most of us.
Because this is Italy. It's a mystery for you, not for us.
Chi è causa del suo mal pianga se stesso " As you make your bed, so you must lie in it"
Hope there will be many vacancies for bush pilots...
Not sad for them but for all the other people that have lost their works because o them.
Now they applaud, the other cry...
25 Tonystan: Well thats what the CAI were trying to negotiate by merging Air One into Alitalia and shedding the unprofitable services of Alitalia. However now who
26 SKAirbus: I'm sorry i don't get these cabin crew and pilots... They didn't agree to the take over plan but as i see it there two options: 1) The unions disagree
27 L410Turbolet: If this really means THE END for Alitalia than I guess we should all extend our congratulations to AZ's militant unions. Well done, killing your own a
28 SKAirbus: The thing is ... SAS would probably do the same...
29 Janmnastami: This isn't the end, this is the beginning. AZ will be sold without debts and without employees.
30 CityofAthens: Trouble is, with a reorganization you either 1) Lose your job 2) Keep your job but lose so much money through revised terms & conditions that you rea
31 Beaucaire: ???? so what's the difference then to build a new airline from scratch ??
32 FlyingAY: Brand, fleet, slots at some airports, frequent flyer program, alliance are there already - no need to build them from scratch.
33 PDXtriple7: Ugggg. I have a flight to Rome booked next weekend. What should I do? I'm skyteam elite, if that matters at all. Who would I even call to rebook hopef
34 Panamair: Apparently, they only have about EUR 30-50 million of cash left, which can support the airline for a few more days at the maximum. http://edition.cnn
35 Janmnastami: Sorry, my sentence wasn't detailed. I mean that the commissioner Fantozzi, if there won't be any other offer as I think, will have to sell the fleet
36 Gorgos: I understand that the brandname Alitalia will always "exist", but when you go bankrupt, all assets you have are sold to pay of debts, including fleet
37 Philzh: Burlesconi, as in "Burlesque"? How wonderfully fitting - just perfect.
38 Viscount724: When Swissair went bankrupt and shut down, the successor airline Swiss (built on the base of former regional airline Crossair) originally wanted to c
39 MadameConcorde: The Vatican's financial services can very easily charter an aircraft from another airline. I am sure there will be many who will be quite happy to tr
40 Joost: Bankruptcy of big companies is always complex. Please correct me if I'm wrong (I do not all the exact differences in bankruptcy law between different
41 Jlbmedia: Isn't the name "Alitalia" also an asset per-se, that has a market value?
42 Joost: Of course it is. How could I have forgotten...The Alitalia brand has, despite all the current problems, still much value.
43 MadameConcorde: Il Corriere della Sera, first page of tonight's issue: http://www.corriere.it/ Alitalia: on the way to bankruptcy. Prime Minister says it's the pilots
44 LHRBlueskies: Anyone who has had power in Italy since the 80's, plus every management team, plus all the unions,. plus all the staff, they are all to blame for the
46 Janmnastami: When a captain cancels the flight because he hasn't had the lunch he wanted and he has its back protected by unions, this means that unions managed A
47 Standby87: Relax, AZ won't go bankrupt. It's a funny airline: there are a lot of good technical people there who do a lot of hard work as I know from IATA techni
49 797: I just talked to a friend who works for AZ and he said that unless a miracle happens, they're stopping the operations in no-time... I can't believe th
51 LHRBlueSkies: No, you are right.....the unions have helped mismanage AZ into the grave. Bravi!! Not anti-union (I am a card-carrier myself), but unions that stick
52 Max Q: As I said Unions don't manage airlines, if management allows them to they have only themselves to blame. If the story about the 'captain cancelling th
53 WorldTraveler: It is very possible that AZ will announce its shutdown after its international flights are in the air back to Italy tonite.
54 L410Turbolet: either that or he can fly the eco-friendly way... on the wings of a prayer
55 Sinlock: It was before your time at A.net but you could also add When will KLM order the 777.
56 Aircellist: Reminds me of that day, when we thought that the USAF would buy something else than Boeings for their tankers... Something happened. Then, there are a
57 FlyDreamliner: Really? I don't know. If the Pan Am name (the most recongizable airline name on earth for most of commercial aviation history) can go away, if Sabena
58 Sandyb123: Hang on. Half the Unions will not agree to any deal at this late stage and are now effectively forcing the airline out of business. Yeah, the managem
59 BMIFlyer: http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/business/7622304.stm Wow, for the sake of 3000 jobs, there will now be how many more thousand lost when the airline shuts d
60 AirNZ: Sorry, like what? Do you mean 'concessions' such as running into Ch11 when it suits not to pay bills to your creditors and screwing your employees wh
61 Janmnastami: I was talking about a captain of a cargo flight who had lunch but not the lunch he asked. It's different.
62 OA412: So does anyone see any of the big 3 making a move for AZ's assets after the collapse?
63 Dantiger: As a onetime union member I feel now that unions are a major part of the economic disaster we Americans are facing. At one time they were definitely n
64 CityofAthens: Not quite; staff would have seen a massive drop in their salary - apparently, this wasn't acceptable. As I mentioned above, AZ staff made their feeli
65 RIX: - would creditors be happier in case of liquidation? - would employees? - would grounding make anyone happy? - you said this, not the original post.
66 Janmnastami: Solari (CGIL union) has confirmed tonight, in a tv talk-show, that the 30% initial reduction of salary proposed by CAI later was reduced only to 6%,
67 CityofAthens: I see ... the information I received suggested salaries for cabin staff would be around 1,100 euros a month which is of course, peanuts. But then agai
68 Acheron: It's about time Alitalia was unplugged from the damned life support. Now it's time some decent airline can pick up what Alitalia couldn't mantain.
69 StuckInCA: Perhaps it has a good name in Italy, but from here it seems that the "value" of the name Alitalia would be a debt. It conjures images of a loss making
70 Legacytravel: Eat one of those BOB meals and be quiet. You have a responsibility to your passengers. If he is hungry get a meal from the back. I bet the union lead
71 NCB: This is exactly what will happen. I think that the negociations were merely a test for the unions. They have showed that the union had to be removed
72 SAS330GOT: Interesting to read this thread just a couple of hours after seeing an Alitalia T7 take to the skies at MIA. I was actually thinking at the time "Wond
73 FlyingAY: An airline cannot function without employees. If the employees think that they do not want to work for a certain airline with the conditions given, t
74 Boeingluvr: Only proof that humans are sometimes dumber more than logical... Unions would rather turn down the offer because of paycuts and lay offs, and if they
75 Max Q: 'Legacy travel' Not sure what a 'BOB' meal is ! Most Airline Pilots have a contract with their employer that specifies crew meals will be provided, no
76 PanHAM: ...and the Opera is not over until the fat lady stops singing... This is better and more entertaining than anything on stage or TV, next on stage we
77 AirGabon: They should had accept AF-KL offer... Just coz of stupid electoral matters they made AZ dead. And AF-KL plan was less worst regarding jobs and activit
78 Beaucaire: http://www.lepoint.fr/actualites-mon...-du-desastre-alitalia/924/0/274822 it's in French but can be easily translated using a Google-translator.. Very
79 Legacytravel: That would be "Buy on Board" My point was that if he needed to eat grab a meal for the galley. Problem solved. Of course I dont have to seen things t
80 Art: Bailing Alitalia out only made sense as 'bridging' funding to enable it to stay alive until a takeover that would involve restructuring could be comp
81 CF105Arrow: Unbelievably incredible article If I knew that, I would have applied for a job there. Cheers, Sam
82 MD11Engineer: If they think they'll get new jobs fast, they are mistaken (especially if they think that they can keep the same conditions and perks). For the pilot
83 Joost: I expect line maintenance engineers to find new jobs soon: as (on the mid term) the total number of aircraft visiting LIN, FCO, VCE, etc will not dra
84 Beaucaire: http://www.ansa.it/site/notizie/awnp...ish/news/2008-09-19_119266603.html That should cut any resiliant rumours that LH could still be interested -eve
85 UAL777UK: Ain't that the truth. You could not get a clearer no from LH and BA if you tried. LH will likely pick up some pieces with Air One, once AZ going unde
86 Atlanta: AZ' story is really starting to sound like EA. I know, unions KILL airlines
87 Ikarus2006: Excellent article. But do not read it to Silvio. He said he would fix AZ to win the elections - he did not deliver. He did not have the power to clea
88 MD11Engineer: If they have a good personal reputation in the industry, they'll find new jobs, but they'll have to move to different cities or countries. An excepti
89 Jetfuel: http://www.news.com.au/business/story/0,27753,24373275-31037,00.html The source said the body would conduct its probe for six to 10 days and if its fi
90 CuriousFlyer: 6 to 10 days = 1 year in Italian.
91 Scouseflyer: The bbc is reporting that they've grounded a number of flights today suggesting that this is due to a lack of fuel - the end could be nigh http://news
92 Hardiwv: What would be the market effect of AZ end? For example, in South America the grounding of AZ would lead to the end of its operations in GRU, EZE and C
93 WorldTraveler: I guess they are taking the strategy of just flying until they run out of money since no one wants to be the party to pull the plug. I can't imagine a
94 Banjo76: Unfortunately ENAC (Italian FAA) is hardly independent from politics. It will never withdraw license if it's told not to do so. And that, will be a p
95 B6MoneyGuyJFK: http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?p...1085&sid=agTLrRdsMi2w&refer=europe A link from Bloomberg.
96 OHLHD: So I saw some AZ birds arriving and taking off. What is the deal now? I thought there is no money for fuel?
97 MMEPHX: ...amazing, now they are talking about nationalizing, getting rid of the unprofitable parts and then reorganizing the flight business. All this sound
98 MadameConcorde: W. Bush bailed out Freddie and Fannie. Can't Berlusconi do the same thing with Alitalia?
99 BMIFlyer: No, it is now against European Laws for governments to bail out airlines.
100 Brilondon: From this statement I can tell you don't know the bankruptcy laws in the U.S. Yes they don't pay their creditors the full amount but in Ch. 11 they d
101 Beaucaire: Only American law autorises to nationalise losses and privatises corporate gains.. Sorry-couldn't resist, after the latest Wall-street bail-outs ...co
102 Joost: The problem is that Alitalia is already running under a similar bankruptcy protection-construction for the last months, to allow the takeover bid to
103 L410Turbolet: Other jobs do not have the luxury of hot (yet crappy) food being served three steps from one's desk. In other jobs you have people going into late ho
104 FlyingAY: I'm not sure about this. Why are Middle Eastern airlines looking for pilots all the time if that's the case? Etihad has had an ad about their Cadet P
105 Enilria: In either Ch7 or Ch11, the creditors get a %. ONE of the many problems with the American Ch11 law is that you can continue losing money while you are
106 Tonystan: Actually, there is legislation stating that people in roles such as pilots/crew are required to get sufficient time to eat food as its part of the sa
107 L410Turbolet: Pre-europe? AFAIK we never physically moved the country out of the continent...
108 Janmnastami: 0%. If AZ goes under, Berlusconi will lose some votes in Rome and Lazio region, but in the north of Italy will gain lots of votes. A survey of the ma
109 PanHAM: sorry, but not quite true. the owners lost all or most of their investment in the companies., There are no gains that were privatized. What was in th
110 Joost: Is Air Dolomiti an Italian entity when it comes to traffic rights? For LX and KL, special legal constructions have been created so they are accepted
111 PanHAM: Lufthansa owns 100% of Air Dolomiti. It is an Italian registered company trading as Air Dolomiti s.p.A., Linee Aeree Regionali Europee. besides for ha
112 Janmnastami: Yes, it's Italian. As already said, 100%. No, it's not required.
113 RIX: - nothing was nationalized there (in case you pretend you have a clue what you are talking about... sorry, couldn't resist )
114 Joost: Oh, yes, it is for several countries. This is from a speech Spinetta gave in 2006 following the AF-KLM merger: ( http://corporate.airfrance.com/uploa
115 Janmnastami: The answer is there: EN is an Italian carrier and the bilateral agreements that the Italian government is re-discussing with some countries will have
116 Kyle070: Here's an article of 2006 in case they get another injection..... History repeats! Mmmm, were is my family card! http://www.businessweek.com/innovate.
117 PanHAM: my mistake, and still, with the split of the shares some countries require that belair titles remain.
118 Beaucaire: The American Express Travel office in Paris has stopped issuing tickets for flights on AZ this afternoon.Same goes for larger travel-offices in Brusse
119 Banjo76: " target=_blank>http://tf1.lci.fr/infos/economie/soc....html I couldn't believe it could happen. What will happen now, I'm clueless, honestly. I alwa
120 Shamrock104: Maybe Totti can do a video for Alitalia, encouraging people to donate, simular to this one, replace Unicef with Alitalia... http://www.youtube.com/wat
121 Max Q: No, Frank Lorenzo killed Eastern Airlines, very easy to blame the unions but management steers the ship, they bear the final responsibility.
122 Bobnwa: On every ship I have ever been on (US Navy, Cruise Ships etc) it is always an enlisted man or union man who is steering the ship. The Capt. never get
123 Janmnastami: This won't happen, Minister Tremonti has already said it's impossible (fortunately). A country of 58 millions of people, one of the top-10 exporters,
124 Fleet Service: But the Captain is the one who will get pilloried if that rating puts the destroyer on a sand bar...
125 Bravo45: Can anyone see some hope? It'll be so sad, I won't be surprised if the drying up of customers only due to what's been going on alone may be enough to
126 Tonystan: They really are flogging a dead horse! Why keep flying as if nothing is happening??? Their website shows no signs of any problems, they are still acce
127 LHRBlueSkies: Max-Q, do i get the feeling you are a union member/activist?! Come on man, you have to accept that, with AZ particularly in mind, the unions have not
128 LHRBlueSkies: From the BBC... "Alitalia has cancelled a number of flights from Rome's Fiumicino airport, increasing fears that the carrier may soon go into liquidat
130 PanHAM: the enlisted man does not make the decisions, The Captain or the F/O commands and gives the course and the enlisted man says Aye Sir. With travel age
131 Max Q: There is no doubt that AZ'S unions have been more difficult than most, however this disaster has been a long time building, previous managements over
132 Lufthansa: You raise a very good point. I think its important to note that in some places, they've behaved very well, and in others, they're more opportunistic.
133 L410Turbolet: They are blamed for their militancy and willingness to take the traveling public hostage at any time for their demands - legitimate or not. Don't for
134 Lufthansa: I have to say, spot on!!!! I couldn't have said it better myself.
135 Jetfuel: Exactly what would the pilots pay cut be if the had agreed? I mean are we talking sub USA salaries? How much are these pilots cutting their own throat
136 LHRBlueSkies: Unions have both good and bad points. There are times when it is right to stand up and be counted, and I am a union member myself, so can see the who
137 Art: Alitalia reported that this was due to technical problems. I imagine that employees have a generous number of days allowed for paid sick leave. They
138 ZRH: First of all there were the politicians (of ALL parties) who lead AZ into the abyss for decades because of corruption, sleaze and mismanagement. But t
139 MD11Engineer: Normally not. Technical problems are everything directly related to aircraft maintenance (defective aircraft, no spare parts or qualified maintenance
140 Bennett123: MD11 Engineer Are you forgetting that the disappearance of AZ will probably see those flights flown by newer aircraft which are likely to be less main
141 MD11Engineer: The techs will still be needed. For the last ten or so years, there has been an accute shortage of licenced aircraft maintenance people in Europe. Fo
142 Cjpark: This is really too bad. While I was only able to fly on the airline a few times I really did enjoy the experience each time.
143 Legacytravel: The unions used to stand for a lot of good. When OSHA was created that pretty much ended the days for the union. I was a union member for 14+ years.
144 Geo772: This on going saga of Alitalia should really have ended a while ago imho. From the sources that I have read, and arguments presented from both sides o
145 Banjo76: Guys, you should understand something which is very typical in Italy when it comes to votes -government businesses: - basicly BOTH managers and emplo
146 CityofAthens: Hello Banjo That is pretty much what my Italian friend said ... anyway, is there any news ??
147 YULWinterSkies: Sad. I can very well see AF-KL managing that new airline and keep flying the 777s and 320s under a (hopefully) not-too-modified name and color scheme.
148 Janmnastami: Berlusconi has been voted by 17 millions of Italian, everybody can have its own opinion about B., but please let politics out of this thread.
149 CityofAthens: I completely understand your feeling, but it's pretty difficult to discusss Alitalia and the present dire straits it finds itself in without includin
150 Janmnastami: Yes, what you have written is absolutely true and you can comment what Berlusconi did in relation to the AF-KLM proposal, you can judge him about AZ,
151 DHR: The whole situation seems to have gone quiet over the last 48 hours or so, could it be that all parties are working behind the scenes for a revised pl
152 Joost: As long as they're still flying, and as long as it is Alitalia, everything's possible. I'm afraid, though, that they will come up with a temporary so
153 Jetfuel: Unions eye foreign rescue for Alitalia From correspondents in Rome Agence France-Presse September 21, 2008 06:36am ITALY'S biggest labour organisation
155 Janmnastami: No, this is not possible, the government can't violate EU laws again. With the CAI's offer, the workers fired would have had 7 years with the 80% of
156 Banjo76: The situation seems not to evolve. It looks like that everybody knows (government and unions) that the government is not gutsy enough to shut the dam
157 Joost: I know, but I would not be too surprised if for example the consortium would keep Alitalia alive pending negotiations, or is that unthinkable? (I see
158 Janmnastami: This is a possibility, if the unions will accept the offer of CAI, CAI could made a loan to AZ and, when formally CAI buys the "good parts" of AZ and
159 Joost: To start with, thank you for all the comprehensive information on the situation From an outsider's point of view, I would imagine that this causes un
160 Nycfly75: I just returned from Italy back home to NYC today on AZ (2 days early mind you, because I didnt feel like taking a risk of being stuck and having to b
161 Janmnastami: These are two surveys of the main Italian newspaper (Corriere della Sera). The first survey asks: "After the withdrawal of CAI's offer, the only poss
162 Lufthansa: That's amazingly high! Looks like Alitalia is no longer the Darling of the Travelling Italian public... in fact that kinda sounds more like they hate
163 MD11Engineer: It seems to me that such favourable conditions would be challenged in court very soon by other unemployeds. Something like "if you give the ex-Alital
164 Joost: Maybe that's also a reason why the unions refused the bid?
165 Caspritz78: The German online publication of the German weekly news magazine "Spiegel" has an article which says that even Berlusconi is giving up on Alitalia and
166 BAStew: I am just curious to know how much the Flight Attendant pay is at Alitalia. A post earlier in this thread mentioned it was around E830-E1000 a month.
167 Standby87: In "other jobs" you can leave your office or make a phone call to order a pizza. Last time I checked I didn't notice any restaurants passing by at 36
168 LHRBlueSkies: Tanti saluti! I agree exactly. Unions, management & politicians have all played their part in burying AZ, and all should hang their heads in shame. B
169 L410Turbolet: In many others you simply can't. In other jobs you can't even say "oh I didn't get a proper sleep, you know what keep the guy bleeding to death waiti
170 Sbworcs: I am neither pro nor anti union as a rule but in this case the union MUST take some of the blame for AZ's current situation. AZ has apparently been on
171 Janmnastami: On 22 September AZ will publish on its website a request for offers to buy AZ (entirely or only some assets, even without debt). The request for offer
172 Joost: That sounds quite desperate, actually. I also wonder what kind of effect it will have. Is there anyone in the (aviation or financial) world who doesn
173 Joost: I'm not sure if it is related, but I saw that the last remaining AZ-flight on MXP-AMS (AZ114) is not bookable any longer, not on alitalia.com, not on
174 Max Q: Well, good luck to all the fine Union employees of Alitalia, wish you all the best of luck and hope your airline can be saved. For those of you that c
175 Rojam: Some references to the latest in the AZ charade: i.e. it now being on open-tender with, curiously, Lufthansa being now favoured ahead of Air France (c
176 Kukkudrill: Latest from the BBC news website: http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/business/7628705.stm
177 BlueShamu330s: Scaremongering hogwash. The regulatory bodies are there for safety, not the Unions.
178 Art: From the BBC report mentioned post 177: "At the weekend, Silvio Berlusconi said there was little chance of finding a foreign bidder. "The other big fl
179 Joost: What surprises me is that bankruptcy courts still allowed them to fly. As the airline is still losing money, it doesn't seem to be in the best interes
180 Theginge: Other airlines flights to Italy are packed so I don't think many people are actually wanting to fly on Alitalia at the moment!!
181 MD11Engineer: Bølløcks. After 15 years in the industry (of them 12 in maintenance), the only time I've seen where an aviation authority ever did an unannounced a
182 BAStew: Its suprising the credit card companies haven't withdrawn their services from Alitalia which would mean no-one could book with them. Hasnt this been t
183 MD11Engineer: I have heard on another forum that an Israeli court has already ordered the seizure of Alitalia equipment, apparently two engines, in TLV due to unpai
184 Beaucaire: http://corporate.alitalia.it/en/Images/pr_22_09_2008e_tcm7-29763.pdf 1 PRESS RELEASE Below is the text to be issued tomorrow, 23 September 2008, in th
185 Janmnastami: Or only some assets. Without debts. A swiss holding is interested in 30 MD80, but I don't know if they're serious.
186 Beaucaire: I could see TK putting an eye on some of the 777's..
187 Joost: Then they've probably already contacted GECAS as well, trying to reserve the leased ones A slightly related question, but why does AZ have so many EI
188 Janmnastami: There are some threads about this issue, try to look for them. I remeber that it could be a problem related to Italian laws (for the leased planes) o
189 Max Q: Good to see someone lives in the real world, well said MD11 Engineer. Anyone that relys on the Government to protect their safety while flying is trul
190 BlueShamu330s: MaxQ Not at all; perhaps the ethics of safety are more mature in the UK. http://www.chirp.co.uk/ Shamu
191 MD11Engineer: Hahaha! Laughing loudly! I've worked with companies controlled by the CAA and they are not different from anybody else. The authority steps in AFTER
192 Beaucaire: Since we are now at laughing matters- the Venezuelan Aserca Airlines has written to Alitalia they would be interested to buy parts of the airline.. We
193 KL577: But usually such a process of selling remaining assets comes after bankrupcy What is happening here? Why don't they just shut down the business now a
194 MD11Engineer: In many countries, not declaring bankruptcy and closing down when there is no money left, but instead making new debts is considered fraud and a crim
195 PanHAM: ....unless you're the government and own all or most of the place and give out a carte blanche for everyone concerned. Still, what is happening here
196 Janmnastami: The commissioner is trying to sell AZ (entirely or only some assets), AZ has a temporary license, why should it be illegal? The commissioner could gro
197 TWFirst: Konkursverschleppung! Es ist Konkursverschleppung!!! I love German... but in any language, the AZ saga and current situation is exasperating, to say t
198 PanHAM: The administrator can continue he company if the company has a potential to exit bankcruptcy or if parts of the company assets can be sold for the ben
199 Avek00: When dealing with financially troubled air carriers, lessors will frequently require that their aircraft be registered in countries like Ireland whic
200 Breiz: AF-KL have indicated their interest in Alitalia this Wednesday Sep. 24th. reports AFP without indicating what is AF-KL interested about.
201 Breiz: Somehow, I could not edit my previous post. Alitalia's unions have been summoned to a meeting tomorrow by the Italian government. Is there hope for A
202 Janmnastami: The plan of AF-KLM > the answer is no. The plan of CAI > the answer is yes (in my opinion) and AF-KLM (or LH) could be the foreign partner of CAI wit
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