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Mexico And Spain Almost Open Skies Y Olé!  
User currently offlineMayaviaERJ190 From Mexico, joined Jan 2008, 312 posts, RR: 1
Posted (6 years 3 days 4 hours ago) and read 3829 times:

Today in the news:

Mexico and Spain sign a new bilateral agreement.

(Spanish only)
http://www.eluniversal.com.mx/notas/539777.html
http://www.elfinanciero.com.mx/ElFin...docTipo=1&orderby=docid&sortby=ASC
http://www.europapress.es/economia/t...o-ambos-paises-20080919201851.html

Old Bilateral (less the 2003 revision) :
-Only one airline from each country.
-Only two cities in each country.
-Maximum 14x weekly per route.

New Bilateral:
-Two airlines from each country for every city pair except CUN-Anywhere in Spain which can be flown by up to four airlines from each country.
-Any airport to any airport in both countries.
-Nx weekly per route.

Isn't this exciting??? (At least I guess it is for both Mexico and Spain)

Who will join on the Mexican side? Mexicana for sure! But Aviacsa? Aeromar? Interjet? Volaris? Avolar? Vivaaerobus? Alma? Who knows where this might lead to... Alma ordering A380s for GDL-MADrotfl  (I will gladly stop laughing if something great happens.)

Who will join on the Spanish side?

New Routes?

Guessing welcomed, lets see who gets it right.


My other plane is an A380.
40 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineEddieDude From Mexico, joined Nov 2003, 7582 posts, RR: 42
Reply 1, posted (6 years 3 days 2 hours ago) and read 3795 times:

Well, it seems MX will probably want to start flights to Spain soon, considering they are soon to become a full oneworld member and have already a very close relationship with IB.

Maybe AM and UX could also agree to have UX complement AM on the MAD-MEX route, but I don't know if UX has sufficient planes that would allow this.



Next flights: MEX-GRU (AM 77E), GRU-GIG (JJ A320), SDU-CGH (G3 73H), GRU-MEX (JJ A332).
User currently offlineGatoVolador From Spain, joined Apr 2007, 435 posts, RR: 1
Reply 2, posted (6 years 3 days 1 hour ago) and read 3765 times:

Good news indeed: congratulations for our Mexican friends for having signed the agreement which is a modern treaty and not an outdated regulation. Here our ministry is trying to sign "open skies" agreements with as much LATAM countries as they can, but some countries are not very receptive, so it's always good to see that Mexico is following the right way. (It seems that Chile is to sign a full "open skies" agreement soon too.) The only downside is that the agreement is not a full "open skies" treaty, as the number of airlines is still limited. Nevertheless, it's still a big step.

MAD-MEX, we will see Mexicana & Aeroméxico for sure, and also Iberia and who knows if Air Europa or Air Comet. Probably Air Europa is in a better shape to do that.

MEX-CUN, wow... I'm surprised to see that each country has the right to have up to 4 airlines flying there. Now Air Europa and Iberworld already fly there on a scheduled basis. I wonder which carrier could enter this market. In the short run I don't see Air Comet starting the route, as they are leaving some "sun & beach" LATAM markets. I doubt Iberia would resume such a route, which is a low-demanding route of Business Plus seats and whose passengers tend to fly with a touristic package. Maybe Air Pulmantur could start the route? I really think that 4 airlines in this sector is too much. What about the Mexican carriers?

What about the number of frequencies? Now that the 14 weekly frequencies limit is gone, could we see Iberia flying more than twice to MEX? Some months ago, I read the statements of an official of the airport of Toluca saying that IB could go to this airport, probably because of the limit of the 14 frequencies and also because of the lack of slots at MEX. Now under the new treaty, maybe Iberia could discard Toluca and add more MEX? Or maybe not?

Do you expect new routes? I wouldn't be surprised to see Mexicana joining the US/Canada/MEX --> Europe ATI agreement signed by AA-BA-IB, so that maybe in the future IB could fly MAD-MEX and MX BCN-MEX (with both carriers sharing the revenues). This would help too to expand in MEX.


User currently offlineR2rho From Germany, joined Feb 2007, 2630 posts, RR: 1
Reply 3, posted (6 years 2 days 22 hours ago) and read 3703 times:

I'm surprised that such a restrictive agreement was in place - it seems that this deal was long overdue! Good news for Mexico and Spain!

UX could be in a position to take advantage of this through SkyTeam cooperation, I just wonder if they have enough aircraft to do it. Air Comet could jump in as well.


User currently offlineGatoVolador From Spain, joined Apr 2007, 435 posts, RR: 1
Reply 4, posted (6 years 2 days 20 hours ago) and read 3656 times:



Quoting R2rho (Reply 3):
I just wonder if they have enough aircraft to do it

They have. Air Europa still has to receive the B787 and in the short run will receive 3 A330 from Air Comet.


User currently offlineRojo From Spain, joined Sep 2000, 2452 posts, RR: 9
Reply 5, posted (6 years 2 days 18 hours ago) and read 3599 times:

Would this agreement allow European Union carriers to fly between Spain and Mexico? The newspaper articles say that Spain wants to follow EU regulations when signing its bilaterals, therefore, it should include EU airlines flying between Spain and the foreign country with whom the bilateral is being negotiated... If this happens it would be interesting to see Air Berlin flying CUN-MAD or CUN-BCN!!

User currently offlineFyano773 From Mexico, joined Mar 2004, 784 posts, RR: 1
Reply 6, posted (6 years 2 days 14 hours ago) and read 3501 times:

Quoting MayaviaERJ190 (Thread starter):
Who will join on the Mexican side? Mexicana for sure! But Aviacsa? Aeromar? Interjet? Volaris? Avolar? Vivaaerobus? Alma? Who knows where this might lead to... Alma ordering A380s for GDL-MAD? (I will gladly stop laughing if something great happens.)

Who will join on the Spanish side?

I think InterJet and Volaris have enough funding to add some A330 and start TLC-MAD or CUN-MAD, but this could happen in the long run. Besides, AM with its new subsidiary AM-Travel might start some CUN-MAD flights with the addition of a single 767, that possibility is not so wild. MX with more 767s is for sure the first candidate as you said. Aladia, fliying charters mainly to CUN is also a good candidate with some 757s and rumors about a 767 to join them.

The Spaniard side: UX extending its cooperation with SkyTeam partner AM; Marsans, let's remember they reported to the press that the (unconfirmed) A380 will be deployed to MEX and EZE.

Aeromar? C'mon... The largest plane they would ever flight is the ATR72-500, but if I remember correctly, the order was deferred.

Fyano

[Edited 2008-09-20 13:33:37]

User currently offlineJigarciar From Colombia, joined May 2005, 88 posts, RR: 0
Reply 7, posted (6 years 1 day 9 hours ago) and read 3301 times:

Great news!. Both countries have strong competitors that are able to maintain a free market, without the excesive intervention of the Governments. This will benefit not only the airlines, but the final users. I think in Colombia we are in that way with Spain; sooner or later we will get an open skies agreement (I hope it is sooner than later!).

User currently offlineAisak From Spain, joined Aug 2005, 763 posts, RR: 10
Reply 8, posted (6 years 23 hours ago) and read 3210 times:

It's great news. But can anyone tell me what changes?

From the Spanish side there were already 2 carriers flying to CUN (UX and Iberworld for IB with codeshare) as well as IB and Air Madrid. From the Mexican side I see it as the green light for MX flights to Spain.

As MX didn't have any longhaul planes and IB was its partner, there was no need to allow more carriers to Spain.

The thread op says "almost open skies". Do airlines get unlimitted 5th freedom rights? Don't know if they've already had them, but it could be interesting to start up a minihub somewhere in Mexico (à la MIA) to access small Central American markets that can't be flown non-stop from Spain: Bolivia, Nicaragua..


User currently offlineArticulatexpat From Hong Kong, joined Sep 2006, 156 posts, RR: 1
Reply 9, posted (6 years 23 hours ago) and read 3202 times:

This topic appeals to my inner geography nerd. The cities so far under discussion are Madrid, Barcelona, Mexico City, and Cancun. There are a number of other major cities in both countries that would seem to warrant nonstop transatlantic services, aren't there? In Spain, maybe Valencia, Seville, and Malaga. In Mexico, maybe Guadalajara, Monterrey, Morelia, Aguascalientes, Tijuana... I'm mostly going from the top of my head. Maybe the markets are there and maybe they're not. In any event, does anyone see the potential for nonstop service between these other cities, or between one of them and the original four?

User currently offlineRojo From Spain, joined Sep 2000, 2452 posts, RR: 9
Reply 10, posted (6 years 21 hours ago) and read 3151 times:



Quoting Aisak (Reply 8):
From the Spanish side there were already 2 carriers flying to CUN (UX and Iberworld for IB with codeshare) as well as IB and Air Madrid. From the Mexican side I see it as the green light for MX flights to Spain.

There are only 2 designated airline flying between Mexico and Spain: IBERIA and AEROMEXICO. Iberworld and Air Pullmantur are charter airlines which do not require designation. Air Europa and Air Madrid were given a bilateral exemption by both countries to fly to TLC and CUN (airports not served by current designated carriers).

Quoting Aisak (Reply 8):
The thread op says "almost open skies". Do airlines get unlimitted 5th freedom rights? Don't know if they've already had them, but it could be interesting to start up a minihub somewhere in Mexico (à la MIA) to access small Central American markets that can't be flown non-stop from Spain: Bolivia, Nicaragua..

IB once had 5th freedom rights on the CUN-MIA-CUN route... when IB decided to close its MIA hub due to new ITI and security regulations in the US, they did consider moving the hub to CUN, but they would have had complains from Mexican carriers. I don't think IB has plans for a small hub in Mexico...


User currently offlineAisak From Spain, joined Aug 2005, 763 posts, RR: 10
Reply 11, posted (6 years 20 hours ago) and read 3126 times:



Quoting Rojo (Reply 10):
I don't think IB has plans for a small hub in Mexico...

I was not thinking about IB, but someone with a smaller coverage in the area and less widebodies to deploy there for non-stop flights.


User currently offlinePlairbus From Germany, joined Feb 2008, 311 posts, RR: 0
Reply 12, posted (6 years 19 hours ago) and read 3098 times:

Air Pullmantour is flying to Cancun 2 times weekly already...

I hope Iberia will finaly fly to cancun


User currently offlinePlairbus From Germany, joined Feb 2008, 311 posts, RR: 0
Reply 13, posted (6 years 19 hours ago) and read 3095 times:

The part of except Cancun, means that no more airlines to Cancun?
Somebody knows why Iberia is not flying to Cancun?


User currently offlineGatoVolador From Spain, joined Apr 2007, 435 posts, RR: 1
Reply 14, posted (6 years 19 hours ago) and read 3077 times:



Quoting Plairbus (Reply 13):
Somebody knows why Iberia is not flying to Cancun?

Because the crews cost too much, the route is long enough to keep an aircraft (very valuable and scarce asset) busy, and the yields (too much tourist class passengers and only a few business class passengers) are poor. The company makes more money by adding new frequencies to somewhere else than flying to CUN.

Carriers such as Iberworld have cheap crews, super densified A332s (cheap aircraft whose costs are divided by the same number of seats than what an A346 of Iberia carries lead to a lower cost per seat), and a direct access to the vacation packages market. Iberworld is part of a tour operator, and therefore they profit comes not only for the flight but also for the insurance, the hotel, the activities, etc. Iberworld can make the route work and not Iberia.


User currently offlineMIgAiR54 From Spain, joined Jun 2007, 1735 posts, RR: 0
Reply 15, posted (6 years 17 hours ago) and read 3033 times:

I am almost sure that Air Europa is going to open that route as soon as they get a new plane. 3x or 4x to start and when a second airplanes arrives daily service.

And IB will add a Third daily non stop service because this route is a gold mine. And adding another freq. could dissuade other airlines to start this service. And maybe a 3x or 4x week mexicana service.

IMO actully only 21xweek flight are not enought, so if IB adds one daily and UX one daily and Aeromexico, 42x week.

Air Comet could try to enter this market, IMO they should add more freqs to their existing network before trying new markets.

Quoting Plairbus (Reply 13):
Somebody knows why Iberia is not flying to Cancun?

Nothing to add, GatoVolador is right.


User currently offlinePlairbus From Germany, joined Feb 2008, 311 posts, RR: 0
Reply 16, posted (6 years 16 hours ago) and read 3008 times:

I fly 3 to 5 times with Air Europa to madrid from Cancun in Business a year and the Business Class is allways full! 100% load factor in Business so I really think that Iberia can make money and also give us the ONEWorld members the service we want, since Iberworld is the worst airline I ever fly! When they start the Codeshare with Iberia one i bought Business for nearly 3000 USD with Iberia and they told me that it is going to be a flight with Iberworld in a new 332 and that they have nearly the same Business Class than Iberia. When i came back from my trip i went to Iberia and I told them that they are crazy to sell Business on Iberworld and i talked a few times to the headquerter and I was so angry because it was just like in economy only that they had leather seats... worst what i flew, I really think it should not be alowed to call that even Economy plus... Finaly I get a free Business Class ticket from Iberia via mex to Cancun and they said sorry. At least Iberia is not selling it anymore like Business Class.

User currently offlineGhost77 From Mexico, joined Mar 2000, 5222 posts, RR: 51
Reply 17, posted (6 years 16 hours ago) and read 2978 times:



Quoting Rojo (Reply 5):
Would this agreement allow European Union carriers to fly between Spain and Mexico? The newspaper articles say that Spain wants to follow EU regulations when signing its bilaterals, therefore, it should include EU airlines flying between Spain and the foreign country with whom the bilateral is being negotiated... If this happens it would be interesting to see Air Berlin flying CUN-MAD or CUN-BCN!!

Impossible! I hardly see Mexico signing an agreement like this. This new bilateral is an open skies agreement between Mexico and Spain as restrictions are almost gone, but I don't see Mexico letting them do sign something similar that the EU signed with the USA.

To me, I see it perfectly this way.

g77



Ricardo Morales - flyAPM - ¡No es que maneje rapido, solo estoy volando lento!
User currently offlineGatoVolador From Spain, joined Apr 2007, 435 posts, RR: 1
Reply 18, posted (5 years 12 months 4 days 21 hours ago) and read 2858 times:



Quoting Plairbus (Reply 16):

You're right: I never understood why IB is codesharing with Iberworld instead than with Air Europa, whose service is much superior. I guess it is because it's a way to keep Iberworld (a pretty large airline) as a handling client of Iberia. Moreover, Iberworld suprisingly operates from T4, which is good for connections with OW carriers whereas Air Europa operates from T1. If it wasn't because of Iberia, I think that Iberworld should go to T1 as well.

Quoting Plairbus (Reply 16):
I fly 3 to 5 times with Air Europa to madrid from Cancun in Business a year and the Business Class is allways full! 100% load factor in Business so I really think that Iberia can make money

The problem is:
- What was the average fare paid for these business class tickets? I know that many holidays carriers (for example, Iberworld) or LATAM carriers (ex: Avianca) get an interesting number of business class travellers, but the willingness to pay for the average passenger of this kind of fly is not too much. For sure it's more than in Economy class, but probably 50% less than in a normal flight. If you take Iberia, they have much lower prices on their Business Plus product to La Habana or Santo Domingo that to any other destination.

- How many of these passengers flying Economy to CUN were upgraded from Economy? I think that Iberia makes a lot of upgrades in La Habana / Santo Domingo, and that's why the cabin seems that full. I'm sure that Air Europa is more or less the same.

If you want to fly with OneWorld, you should take MAD-MEX on IB and then MEX-CUN on MX. I read that the new Mexican partners (new for OW, not for IB) are very good and that the flights are very pleasant.

I'd really like IB to start the MAD-CUN... but I think that it's not going to be easy for them. Most of the passengers buythe tickets through touroperators. It's not really very easy for them to fill an aircraft and make it profitable. That's why I don't think it will happen in the short run.


User currently offlineGatoVolador From Spain, joined Apr 2007, 435 posts, RR: 1
Reply 19, posted (5 years 12 months 4 days 21 hours ago) and read 2849 times:



Quoting Ghost77 (Reply 17):
but I don't see Mexico letting them do sign something similar that the EU signed with the USA.

Well... this is for sure the last Spain-México bilateral. The EU is now empowered to replace the States in the signature of bilaterals with third countries. In principle, in a few years all the bilaterals will be EU-XXX and not Spain/France/UK...-XXX. The first essay was the US-EU Open Skies agreement. And now this is how it's going to work in the near future.

Europe believes that if Europe is a single market, then having a system of national bilaterals is like broking this unity. If any European carrier can fly from any two points within the EU (for example, here in my local airport I have an Italian airline flying nonstop from here to Romania), any EU airline should also be able to start any flight to outside the EU. It doesn't sound very logical that, for example, Air Europa could make MAD-MEX and not a company as Air One, for example. This is a kind of protection of the national markets (because Spanish airlines can fly MAD-MEX but the bilateral makes impossible to have a British/French/Portuguese competitor), and that's why it's going to change.

The new bilaterals will be EU-Third Country and the goal is to make them as close to open skies as possible.


User currently offlineTWFirst From Vatican City, joined Apr 2000, 6346 posts, RR: 51
Reply 20, posted (5 years 12 months 4 days 19 hours ago) and read 2821 times:

I'm confused... I thought EU regulations prevented individual member countries from signing bilateral aviation agreements with non-EU countries. Wasn't this the whole issue behind why the EU-US open skies agreement and the opening up of LHR took so long (i.e. supplanting individual country agreements with EU-wide regulation) ?


An unexamined life isn't worth living.
User currently offlineLH498 From Germany, joined May 2007, 215 posts, RR: 0
Reply 21, posted (5 years 12 months 4 days 17 hours ago) and read 2783 times:



Quoting TWFirst (Reply 20):

It's my understanding, that Mexico is about to begin or is already negotiating an aviation agreement with the EU. Mutual consultations have been carried out for some time already.
So this bilateral is most probably a temporary one. However, I too cannot understand why Spain could sign it when such agreements are supposed to be in their final days (from EU side), unless as posted above it opens the door to other EU-airlines.

In todays Reforma newspaper Mexicana posted an add praising the mexican DGAC for signing this agreement...seems they really want to cross the pond...finally.
So far, there hasn't been an official statement from MX concerning their TATL plans, right?


User currently offlineEddieDude From Mexico, joined Nov 2003, 7582 posts, RR: 42
Reply 22, posted (5 years 12 months 4 days 16 hours ago) and read 2751 times:



Quoting GatoVolador (Reply 18):
I never understood why IB is codesharing with Iberworld instead than with Air Europa, whose service is much superior.

Well, I don't think any of the two would be interested in this. They belong to different international alliances, and their local partners in Mexico are also fierce competitors amongst themselves.

Quoting GatoVolador (Reply 18):
How many of these passengers flying Economy to CUN were upgraded from Economy? I think that Iberia makes a lot of upgrades in La Habana / Santo Domingo, and that's why the cabin seems that full. I'm sure that Air Europa is more or less the same.

I don't know if European carriers do the same as Mexican and U.S. carriers that upgrade from coach to business their most loyal passengers if space is available or not. But that notwithstanding, there is massive Spanish investment in the Cancún-Cozumel-Riviera Maya area, and I am sure lots of executives from hospitality companies, banks and consultancies frequently travel between MAD and CUN and therefore there is a market for nonstop business class service.

Quoting LH498 (Reply 21):
In todays Reforma newspaper Mexicana posted an add praising the mexican DGAC for signing this agreement...seems they really want to cross the pond...finally.
So far, there hasn't been an official statement from MX concerning their TATL plans, right?

I saw. Clear sign that MX lobbied very hard for this!



Next flights: MEX-GRU (AM 77E), GRU-GIG (JJ A320), SDU-CGH (G3 73H), GRU-MEX (JJ A332).
User currently offlineGatoVolador From Spain, joined Apr 2007, 435 posts, RR: 1
Reply 23, posted (5 years 12 months 4 days 13 hours ago) and read 2693 times:



Quoting EddieDude (Reply 22):
Well, I don't think any of the two would be interested in this. They belong to different international alliances, and their local partners in Mexico are also fierce competitors amongst themselves.

But Air Europa's passengers fly Iberia to Ecuador, for example.


User currently offlineXaapb From Mexico, joined Jan 2005, 438 posts, RR: 5
Reply 24, posted (5 years 12 months 4 days 12 hours ago) and read 2674 times:



Quoting Articulatexpat (Reply 9):

Monterrey dose have a transatlantic flight to Madrid, flight AM21 routing MEX-MTY-MAD
greetings



Jorge Meneses
25 AM744 : Let's not forget MTY-FCO, which is a stopover as we know, but a nonstop nonetheless.
26 Civilav : Very interesting comment Rojo. In those days, Cancún (Ie. ASUR) had to turn down Iberia's request for a hub as the airport lacked terminal capacity
27 EddieDude : Hmmm, very interesting GatoVolador. I had no idea. Thanks for the clarification. I guess in the case of Mexico, this would not happen though... since
28 THEGRINCH : Hi Eddie, yes we had 743 service. The problem was it wasn't often enough (1 flight a week), it never really had any publicity and a charter 743 is no
29 Ghost77 : Hey Grinch! Really? Is it a B777 area with a hangar? Interesting... g77
30 THEGRINCH : Yes Rich, Just right next to the old AM hangar, in between the FAM/PGR hangar and the old AMX by runway 02/20. I'm told by AM personel that, the initi
31 Ghost77 : Hey, This is really interesting, I not longer wonder why less and less mx is seen at MEX. Also interesting to hear what MX is developing and going for
32 THEGRINCH : 2x sounds right, the 777 as much as I'd like to spot it here, I think is to big to start this route nonstop. Maybe start it off with the 762, with ev
33 Rojo : Well, for AM, the MTY-MAD flight actually starts in GDL, well sort of. I have taken the MTY-MAD flight twice and on one of those flights I saw that t
34 UPPERDECKFAN : Altough I agree with Ed on the fact that there is premium demand on MAD-CUN, it's not high enough to fill 50 biz+ plus seats at least 4-5 times a wee
35 Rojo : AF has no flights to CUN, at least no schedule flights... Corsair is the one flying between Paris ORY and Cancun on a B747-400. If I am not mistaken,
36 UPPERDECKFAN : My bad, AF only serves SDQ, HAV and PUJ among Caribean spanish speaking leisure stations (with the hi density 744)
37 THEGRINCH : Hola Rojo! I know TOJ is not that bad, I mentioned that particular, since it's one of Mexico's darlings among spotters, and with it's recent interior
38 Ghost77 : Yes GRINCH, share them please with us!!! I haven't seen the new interiors from our loved TOJodido!!!! g77
39 Rojo : Yes, we want to see them... I still have one more MAD-MTY-MEX flight booked. Lets see if AM has improved its inflight product!!
40 EddieDude : Yeah I am curious if the 763 fleet is being fitted with the new 777 business class seats and if the pitch in coach is 34 inches like inside the 777s.
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