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NW Compensation For Delayed 787's?  
User currently offlineJetjack74 From United States of America, joined Jul 2003, 7423 posts, RR: 50
Posted (6 years 2 months 1 week 1 day ago) and read 15461 times:
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Since JAL is getting compensation in the form of 767 and 777's for the delayed 787 aircraft, will or is NW going to get some sort of compensation themselves for, #1 the late delivery and #2 the fact that the 2nd aircraft was botched due to a constructive flaw in the engineering?


Made from jets!
266 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineDL Widget Head From United States of America, joined Apr 2000, 2100 posts, RR: 5
Reply 1, posted (6 years 2 months 1 week 1 day ago) and read 15451 times:

You can rest assured that if JL got compesation, then DL/NW will certainly get it as well. A few extra frames of this or that would be nice.  Wink

User currently offlineCentrair From Japan, joined Jan 2005, 3598 posts, RR: 20
Reply 2, posted (6 years 2 months 1 week 23 hours ago) and read 15374 times:



Quoting DL Widget Head (Reply 1):
A few extra frames of this or that would be nice

NW... more 787s?
DL.... 777s or 767s?

But who actually gets the comp?



Yes...I am not a KIX fan. Let's Japanese Aviation!
User currently offlineLuvaulter From United States of America, joined May 2006, 46 posts, RR: 0
Reply 3, posted (6 years 2 months 1 week 22 hours ago) and read 15297 times:

Some thinking is that boeing will allow NWA to use some 747-400 they have parked that are off of leases. NW needs to start the DTW-PEK soon and is going to need to downgrade some current routes to smaller aircraft. for example some of the inter Asia flying going from A330's to 757's. The other thought is there will be a large sum of money being paid by boeing. With the cost of fuel and a merger the money might be a better option. All of NW's future plans included and were based on the B787 being in service about this time not a year or so from now. I still think the First delivery of NW's first 787 will be painted in delta blue.

User currently offlineFloridaflyboy From United States of America, joined Jun 2006, 2016 posts, RR: 0
Reply 4, posted (6 years 2 months 1 week 20 hours ago) and read 15177 times:



Quoting Centrair (Reply 2):
But who actually gets the comp?

If the compensation is being issued now, it has to be issued to NW as DL doesn't own NW yet and those orders are NW's, not DL's.



Good goes around!
User currently offlineWorldTraveler From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 5, posted (6 years 2 months 1 week 20 hours ago) and read 15155 times:

Boeing also has some other used aircraft that DL might be interested in. And the 777 line is running O T.

DL is carefully reviewing the whole 787 situation.


User currently offlineGsosbee From United States of America, joined Jan 2005, 825 posts, RR: 0
Reply 6, posted (6 years 2 months 1 week 19 hours ago) and read 15053 times:



Quoting Floridaflyboy (Reply 4):
If the compensation is being issued now, it has to be issued to NW as DL doesn't own NW yet and those orders are NW's, not DL's.

But you can bet Delta's want will be paramount. All merger/acquisition agreements contain a clause that the company being acquired (NW) has to consult with the acquirer (DL) before making any significant business decisions or investments.

It will be important to DL that NW be able to carry on with any international route development so I would expect they would prefer airplanes in lieu of cash only from Boeing.


User currently offlinePanAm788 From United States of America, joined Sep 2008, 292 posts, RR: 0
Reply 7, posted (6 years 2 months 1 week 16 hours ago) and read 14815 times:

Quoting Luvaulter (Reply 3):

Great idea, hope it happens.

Quoting Floridaflyboy (Reply 4):

  

[Edited 2008-09-21 08:58:42]


You know nothing Jon Snow
User currently offlineBurnsie28 From United States of America, joined Aug 2004, 7558 posts, RR: 8
Reply 8, posted (6 years 2 months 1 week 16 hours ago) and read 14770 times:



Quoting Luvaulter (Reply 3):
I still think the First delivery of NW's first 787 will be painted in delta blue.

Considering that NW's first couple airplanes were halfway completed, I believe the rudder already had the NW red on it.



"Some People Just Know How To Fly"- Best slogan ever, RIP NW 1926-2009
User currently offlineMayor From United States of America, joined Mar 2008, 10601 posts, RR: 14
Reply 9, posted (6 years 2 months 1 week 16 hours ago) and read 14726 times:



Quoting Burnsie28 (Reply 8):
Considering that NW's first couple airplanes were halfway completed, I believe the rudder already had the NW red on it.

Yeah, but when will they be delivered? The first NW a/c is scheduled to be a flight test a/c, so the second one will be the first one delivered. If the merger is okayed before delivery, wouldn't it make more sense to start painting them in DL colors as they will belong to DL at that point?



"A committee is a group of the unprepared, appointed by the unwilling, to do the unnecessary"----Fred Allen
User currently offlineDeltaL1011man From United States of America, joined Sep 2005, 9672 posts, RR: 14
Reply 10, posted (6 years 2 months 1 week 15 hours ago) and read 14340 times:



Quoting Luvaulter (Reply 3):
DTW-PEK

DTW-PVG

Quoting Burnsie28 (Reply 8):
Considering that NW's first couple airplanes were halfway completed, I believe the rudder already had the NW red on it.

All DL will do is tell Boeing to repaint the airplane or fly it to ATL and repaint it.

Quoting Mayor (Reply 9):
If the merger is okayed before delivery, wouldn't it make more sense to start painting them in DL colors as they will belong to DL at that point?

yes it does.

Quoting Mayor (Reply 9):
Yeah, but when will they be delivered?

With the strike and all it could be a while. Just like DL's 777s that will be late due to strike.



yep.
User currently offlineFlyDreamliner From United States of America, joined Jan 2006, 2759 posts, RR: 15
Reply 11, posted (6 years 2 months 1 week 12 hours ago) and read 13627 times:

I think it could easily go a couple of different ways. DL already has all the 767s it could ever want, shy of picking up more 767-400ERs, I don't see compensation going that way. I also don't see them taking short-term leases as compensation. Either they are going to get a few more 787s than they paid for (they can exercise some of those options gratis) or they'll pick up a few more 777s, because God knows, DL could use more 777s in a big way.

And they are DL's airplanes... by the time they start getting delivered, NW won't exist anymore.

Per another thread, I do believe that the first couple 787s will in fact be delivered in NW livery. I, myself, am excited to get to see the 787 in both the beautiful NW and almost as beautiful DL liveries.



"Let the world change you, and you can change the world"
User currently offlineAirframeAS From United States of America, joined Feb 2004, 14150 posts, RR: 24
Reply 12, posted (6 years 2 months 1 week 11 hours ago) and read 13380 times:



Quoting Luvaulter (Reply 3):
I still think the First delivery of NW's first 787 will be painted in delta blue.

Remember, the merger still has to be approved.... Regardless of what everyone else is saying on this thread, no more no less.

Quoting Burnsie28 (Reply 8):
I believe the rudder already had the NW red on it

That is a test aircraft. I remember reading on the forums that this aircraft will not be delivered at all as it will stay with Boeing.



A Safe Flight Begins With Quality Maintenance On The Ground.
User currently offlineRwy04LGA From United States of America, joined Jul 2005, 3176 posts, RR: 8
Reply 13, posted (6 years 2 months 1 week 11 hours ago) and read 13337 times:

Or they might order 10 748i frames (to replace the oldest 744's around) and get 2 free!


Just accept that some days, you're the pigeon, and other days the statue
User currently offlineDTWAGENT From United States of America, joined Jan 2006, 1283 posts, RR: 0
Reply 14, posted (6 years 2 months 1 week 10 hours ago) and read 13123 times:

I would think they would go for the B777's as stated above. DL needs more of these birds for their international flights. I can't see NW picking up to many more B744's as they don't want to have that many around when the 787's start coming in.

chuck


User currently offlineFlyDreamliner From United States of America, joined Jan 2006, 2759 posts, RR: 15
Reply 15, posted (6 years 2 months 1 week 9 hours ago) and read 12926 times:



Quoting Rwy04LGA (Reply 13):
Or they might order 10 748i frames (to replace the oldest 744's around) and get 2 free!

Maybe we'll see a 777-300ER order... now that there are 777-200LRs in the fleet, may as well. The 77Ws can replace the 744s, send the 744s off to freight. It'll be a good move towards commonality in the fleet. Boeing might make those 777s too cheap to refuse as part of the deal.



"Let the world change you, and you can change the world"
User currently offlineMayor From United States of America, joined Mar 2008, 10601 posts, RR: 14
Reply 16, posted (6 years 2 months 1 week 9 hours ago) and read 12861 times:



Quoting AirframeAS (Reply 12):
That is a test aircraft. I remember reading on the forums that this aircraft will not be delivered at all as it will stay with Boeing.

I think it will be delivered eventually, but used as a flight test a/c, first. The same thing happened at DL with the original 767's. Ship 101 was built first but used as a flight test a/c and ship 102, The Spirit of Delta, was delivered first.



"A committee is a group of the unprepared, appointed by the unwilling, to do the unnecessary"----Fred Allen
User currently offlineVHHYI From Australia, joined Oct 2007, 97 posts, RR: 0
Reply 17, posted (6 years 2 months 1 week 9 hours ago) and read 12784 times:



Quoting AirframeAS (Reply 12):
That is a test aircraft. I remember reading on the forums that this aircraft will not be delivered at all as it will stay with Boeing.

IIRC, the first 20 frames are going to a Boeing IDS site (San Antonio?) to be 'modified' to a revised configuration. I don't recall what that entails but you can find details on IAD787's blog archives.

Is there going to be a delivery ceremony like there has been for A380's?



This Porsche is like an Airbus;an Engineering marvel, but without passion - Jeremy Clarkson
User currently offlineTranspac787 From United States of America, joined Jul 2007, 3216 posts, RR: 13
Reply 18, posted (6 years 2 months 1 week 7 hours ago) and read 12513 times:



Quoting Luvaulter (Reply 3):
going to need to downgrade some current routes to smaller aircraft.

No, they aren't....

NW has 16x 744's and has more than enough capacity for all of their flights, including NRT-south flights. It would be impossible to turn the 744's back to the USA immediatley after arriving in NRT, given NW's flight timings. So, no 744 route will need to be downgraded, even with the addition of DTW-PVG.

I've typed this a lot lately and am getting kinda tired of doing so, but here it is again... NW's current 744 fleet utilization:

1) DTW-NRT-PVG
2) PVG-NRT-DTW
3) DTW-NRT-HKG
4) HKG-NRT-DTW
5) DTW-KIX-TPE
6) TPE-KIX-DTW
7) DTW-NGO-MNL
8) MNL-NGO-DTW
9) MSP-NRT-HNL
10) HNL-NRT-MSP
11) LAX-NRT-MNL
12) MNL-NRT-LAX
13) DTW-PVG
14) PVG-DTW
15)
16)

So, even with DTW-PVG nonstop, NW will still have 2 spare 744 frames. No NRT-south downgrading will be done.

Quoting Luvaulter (Reply 3):
I still think the First delivery of NW's first 787 will be painted in delta blue.

Possible, but at least they'll still be delivered as 787-851.


User currently offlineCX747 From United States of America, joined May 1999, 4454 posts, RR: 5
Reply 19, posted (6 years 2 months 1 week 7 hours ago) and read 12479 times:

What about the possibility of taking 737-800s to help make a dent in DL's massive MD-80 fleet?


"History does not long entrust the care of freedom to the weak or timid." D. Eisenhower
User currently offlineBurnsie28 From United States of America, joined Aug 2004, 7558 posts, RR: 8
Reply 20, posted (6 years 2 months 1 week 7 hours ago) and read 12394 times:



Quoting Mayor (Reply 9):
Yeah, but when will they be delivered? The first NW a/c is scheduled to be a flight test a/c, so the second one will be the first one delivered. If the merger is okayed before delivery, wouldn't it make more sense to start painting them in DL colors as they will belong to DL at that point?



Quoting FlyDreamliner (Reply 11):
And they are DL's airplanes... by the time they start getting delivered, NW won't exist anymore.

Wrong, it will be 1 year to 2 years after the merger is approved for NW to be gone, as NW will still operate seperate of DL because they won't be on the same flight certificate.



"Some People Just Know How To Fly"- Best slogan ever, RIP NW 1926-2009
User currently offlineWorldTraveler From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 21, posted (6 years 2 months 1 week 6 hours ago) and read 12136 times:



Quoting Burnsie28 (Reply 20):
Wrong, it will be 1 year to 2 years after the merger is approved for NW to be gone, as NW will still operate seperate of DL because they won't be on the same flight certificate.

NW will become a subsidiary of DAL on the day the merger is consummated - probably right before Thanksgiving. DL will control all of NW's money, strategies, and acquisitions. NW will retain an operating license but it will be as much under DL's control as Comair is today - if not more.


User currently offlineBrilondon From Canada, joined Aug 2005, 4389 posts, RR: 2
Reply 22, posted (6 years 2 months 1 week 6 hours ago) and read 12111 times:

[quote=Burnsie28,reply=8]Considering that NW's first couple airplanes were halfway completed, I believe the rudder already had the NW red on it.

That can be changed and probably will considering the 787 will not be arriving before next year I don't think.



Rush for ever; Yankees all the way!!
User currently offlineRwy04LGA From United States of America, joined Jul 2005, 3176 posts, RR: 8
Reply 23, posted (6 years 2 months 1 week 5 hours ago) and read 11967 times:



Quoting WorldTraveler (Reply 21):
NW will retain an operating license but it will be as much under DL's control as Comair is today - if not more.

And just as at the door to the Comair CRJ, on the Delta 747-451 you'll see a sign that reads: 'Operated by Northwest Airlines'.



Just accept that some days, you're the pigeon, and other days the statue
User currently offlineNWDLstepson From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 24, posted (6 years 2 months 1 week 5 hours ago) and read 11969 times:

Why do I always get the impression that the DL fans on this web site love to point out to us NWA fans / employees / lovers / whatever, how much of what we built is now going to be under their dominion?
Comments are stated as fact, with no direct factual reference or source. Are you sitting in on merger meetings? Hey, but who knows maybe I just don't want to heat it? I'm big enough to admit that.
I guess I'm asking...do the People at Delta, if you are from Delta see this as such a major coup for them? Are we a conquered foreign empire? like what?
Almost every day at work I see DAL Employees, and it's such an amazing, and exciting time for them. Why is that? Am I missing something?
All I've heard are the rumors and conjecture about this merger and why it's really happening.

Now there's a topic thread to start.....the NWA DAL merger rumor mill.


25 Halophila : Well Boeing could always say that the delay was due to weather, or mechanical, or any other myriad of reasons deemed "operational reasons", and theref
26 DeltaL1011man : This is if Anderson keeps the 787 orders. Will NW take the 744 off the NRT-PVG flight? maybe move it over to PEK? They think it will take 18-24 month
27 SNCntry32 : Your raise a very good point. NW has a very rich history. They are one of the oldest standalone brands in airlines today. They started running mail b
28 Transpac787 : Most likely not. SEA, PDX, SFO, and LAX probably all have significant feed into the PVG flight, and it wouldn't make any sense for them to route via
29 Tdscanuck : Compensation for the delays seems likely. Compensation for the 2nd airframe doesn't seem like for the reasons you suggest, although I'd expect it to
30 M404 : Silliness about paint jobs aside, back to the point of the thread starter. Another possibility other than imagined free airframes is that B would simp
31 Bobnwa : Yes Boeing could say that, but the airlines industry would all know that would not be true. Is your aunt suggesting that he might not?
32 TISTPAA727 : I would love to see that!!!!
33 Goaliemn : Repainting would add a significant delay. If a plane is painted in NW colors, it would probably keep it until the first heavy maintenance. If they re
34 AirbusA6 : Well the best compensation frame would be the A330 - existing large fleet, similar size. I'm sure Airbus could do Boeing a nice deal
35 WorldTraveler : I very much understand the attachment to NW but the fact is that NW is being acquired. It is called a merger because it is a friendly acquisition inv
36 Floridaflyboy : While that is true, it is also worth noting, of course that while NW consults DL on such decisions, such discussions are totally non-binding. If NW s
37 Mayor : It won't take that long for the single operating certificate. That will be accomplished before the complete operational merger is done.
38 Mayor : Maybe we would fight it, like we did the US deal. There were many factors against that deal from the start, but maybe, just maybe, our fighting it ha
39 NWDLstepson : You know Mayor I really respect what you said and your opinion.....but for many of us at NWA it is bittersweet, and I'd really love to have a cold cli
40 Belizexp : I'm starting to agree with you on the management issuse I'm see more NW style then DL lately it ashame how the good old DL gone forever DL needs Jim
41 Mayor : I can respect your feelings and can sort of understand how you feel. I would hope that you would come to understand the DL culture and embrace it. Th
42 WorldTraveler : actually there are specific clauses in the merger agreement that require that both companies not change significantly before the merger, including ta
43 Burnsie28 : Well seeing how the 787 sim has already been delivered and is in the NW pilot contracts, im pretty sure that it will. No Not according to the airline
44 Mayor : Give me some proof on ANY of those reasons. I think you're dead wrong. 1. Prove this........DL employees may just be more proud of their airline than
45 Post contains links Mayor : Apparently, the union doesn't converse with the FAA. http://www.ajc.com/business/content/...es/2008/09/22/delta_northwest.html
46 Post contains links DeltaL1011man : Thanks It would add what 2-3 weeks max? after 2 years of being late I think they can wait one more month. He thinks its over weight. (plus late) Not
47 Mayor : If Anderson doesn't take the 787's, he'll put the airline behind in fleet renewal that will take years to make up. I don't think he will reject them a
48 Mayor : You'll excuse me if I'm a little gunshy. Leo had people that were the same way, studied the DL culture and family and thought it was bunk. We know ho
49 Post contains links SNCntry32 : Finding Minnesota: The Plane That Started NWA http://wcco.com/findingminnesota/nwa.first.plane.2.715896.html
50 Lambert747 : 15/ GRU-ATL-NRT 16/ NRT-ATL-GRU or 15/ ATL-LAX-SYD 16/ SYD-LAX-ATL or 15/ JFK-LHR-ATL 16/ ATL-LHR-JFK Perhaps, but there are so many questions about
51 WorldTraveler : The 787-8 is going to be an expensive airplane to operate. First, new technology is always expensive. Everyone wants to be the first to own a new toy.
52 Transpac787 : Impossible rotation. Given the flight times of those flights plus ground service time you'd need more than 24 hours in a day to make that work, meani
53 Bobnwa : Two or three weeks of a 100 million dollar aircraft sitting still waiting to be painted is hardly a good use of resources. During the 2-3 year delay,
54 Gsosbee : I suspect that Boeing, Delta and Northwest have reached an agreement on the painting of the airplanes. With yesterday's news and Thursday's expected a
55 Nycbjr : sigh... I agree this seems plausible.. but I really hope not, as an enthusiast of both Boeing and DL I was looking forward to seeing this bird in the
56 Burnsie28 : Why 15-18 months after the merger is approved... sound about what the union was saying. When DL pilots and crew won't even talk to crews of other air
57 Centrair : I don't recall seeing the KLM mark next to NWA here in Japan. Maybe in Tokyo we can see it but not in Nagoya. We see NWA/Skyteam marks. It doesn't ma
58 DeltaL1011man : guess planes should never ever be painted then right? I agree Would not shock me at all Yea because the ATL/DTW-Asia O/D market is soooo big. Because
59 Bobnwa : Burnsie, this story ia an exageration and I am sure you know that. Other than from a few steller members here on A net, I have never heard that term
60 Goaliemn : Planes are painted at heavy maintenance, as its basically required. They repaint them to give the plane a coating of paint to help with moisture, plu
61 Burnsie28 : Perhaps since they are "becoming a new airline" as they so call it, make everyone get newly designed uniforms. Heres your break, and a cookie too. Be
62 Gsosbee : Hopefully Delta realizes that "do overs" are rare and takes advantage of the change to make some real progress in this area.
63 Mayor : If I recall, your uniforms will be provided AND every year you get so many "points" to purchase more, if needed. There's always more than enough poin
64 Bobnwa : Burnsie, as I am sure you realize many airline crews have in their contract a separate van to take them to their crew rest hotel. I have seen all ail
65 LY4XELD : They're not even close to halfway painted. The rudder is painted, that's it. Nope. All test airplanes (except the static and fatigue) are going to be
66 Rwy04LGA : We will now be able to nonrev to Asia. NW people will now be able to nonrev to the rest of the world. GRU-JFK-NRT is almost a straight line. The grea
67 WorldTraveler : which of course explains why ATL is the most diverse and most expansive int'l airport in the US outside of NYC. DL has built ATL into a global powerh
68 DeltaL1011man : then how will they paint it if its not out for 2 weeks? Its kind of like song bob, Delta will want the Northwest name gone ASAP. For Delta it is not
69 Jfk777 : DElta should take 777 and excercise all the options for 787's. Delta needs to replace almost everything in the NW fleet save the A330's, many A320's a
70 Okie73 : You think Delta would have any trouble selling that sim? They would probably even make a profit on it. Hmm, unless they get in early on the A350. I t
71 DeltaL1011man : like I said to WT.........why would try and replace a 767 with a 777 same goes here.....A350 is waaaaaaaaay to much plane for Delta. the 788 is the p
72 WorldTraveler : "since" what? or sense? doesn't really matter what your interpretation of geography is. what matters is whether DL can achieve acceptable financial m
73 DeltaL1011man : My bad No what matters is Why in the world would I fly DFW-ATL-NRT? Again WT DL is not the end-all be-all of airlines like you think. Other than PEK
74 Bobnwa : You do realize that RPK's is the generally accepted measure of airline size don't you? Or are you changing the standard all by yourself. And why are
75 Mayor : NYC is WEST of ATL??
76 Burnsie28 : Already can since NW people get passes on KLM for less that ID-90's/zed fares.
77 Mayor : Well, now you'll be able to for free.....except for gov't fees and taxes.
78 Bobnwa : That's news to me. Even KLM employees don't get better than less than ID90/zed on their own carrier.
79 Post contains links Burnsie28 : Like we already do? Also for a merger to work, you gotta have the employees onboard http://money.cnn.com/news/newsfeeds/...83540c66ed5c2aefad46116b62
80 Mayor : Well, the NW stockholders have approved it and I imagine the DL stockholders will, later today.
81 Mayor : So, you guys are going to fight it all the way, even after you're wearing DL uniforms? I think the IAM sees the handwriting on the wall and is grabbi
82 Burnsie28 : I wouldn't be surprised to see many flights having to be cancelled for no crews, or delayed for many reasons. Not to mention many employees are leavi
83 Bobnwa : If as Burnsie says, a few NW employees fight it, they are among those who the new DL would not want anyway. They are the chronic complainers, who are
84 Mayor : And exactly what would this accomplish? At that point, the merger is a done deal....wouldn't it be better to work with it to everyone's benefit, rath
85 WorldTraveler : you don't have to.... the point is that there is plenty of traffic that logically flows over ATL.. more than enough to profitably fill far more seats
86 Transpac787 : Not even close by miles to the likes of UA's SFO Asian gateway. What happened there?? Glass half empty, much?? Any other crystal-ball predictions for
87 Gsosbee : Burnsie you may be right, but why would any responsible employee behave as you suggest? By contract the pilots have to fly so the flying will continu
88 DeltaL1011man : This traffic will come from..........? BTW I wouldn't fly that route but why would someone who is not a DL FF or a Delta lover fly Anything west-ATL-
89 Bobnwa : No junior, the post is about you claiming that DL is twice the size of NW which it clearly isn't. As usual you jumped in with faulty knowledge.
90 Transpac787 : And as usual, you continue your ridiculous crusade. Lay off it. It really gets boring. I'm not even involved in the bickering between you two, and it
91 Mayor : Here's what you said. Where does it mention uniforms?
92 Mayor : Not likely as the F/As and passenger service got new uniforms in the last two years. The ramp and cargo folks could probably use a new uniform. I nev
93 KingAir200 : For being so sure about NWA employees ditching the union, you seem a little concerned about it. I think I speak for a majority of the IAM represented
94 DeltaL1011man : as you can see he said "new work stuff" which = new Uniforms which is why I said DL has more people = it is larger. Not that hard to understand. No o
95 Mayor : I stand corrected. However, I think it was an honest mistake considering how mixed up the posts became. Regardless, since the NW people are getting t
96 Mayor : I think management has already stated that they would allow elections if necessary.
97 Post contains links LAXintl : Back to the subject of the thread: Full story (subscription required) http://www.aviationweek.com/publicat...oks+To+777+As+Relief+From+787+Woes
98 Centrair : I don't quite understand this. Does it mean... A) DL will drop the 787 for 777s? B) DL will request 777s for compensation?
99 Rwy04LGA : Doesn't JAL use 744s on both routes (or used to)? In First or Business class, or in coach? At a recent DL barbeque, the NW staff were invited and I s
100 Lambert747 : Delta is not basing their business on you or any one other individual person. Delta has built the ATL hub based on connectivity. It is widely known a
101 KingAir200 : I know. I'm saying let the vote decide, not tell us to simply walk away from the union.
102 KingAir200 : Where did these 10 come from? I work with about 85 IAM folks and I would say a solid 70 are in favor of the union in this merger.
103 Transpac787 : Yes, it is!!! I think my point is soaring clear over your head. Your suggestion of flying GRU-ATL-NRT would require more than 24 hours in a day. GRU-
104 LAXintl : I think what it means is thet DL is not fully happy with the 787 and might look to pursue other planes in its place. For instance here are some comme
105 Lambert747 : Here is a suggestive schedule using 2 747-400 on the less than daily 747-400 that has been suggested: NRT-ATL-GRU: Mon, Tue, Thu, Fri B747-400 #1 Mon
106 Gsosbee : Or that Delta is in the maneuver portion of negotiations.
107 Rwy04LGA : Thank you, Lambert747! Also, GRU (Sao Paolo) has the largest concentration of Japanese outside Japan and the shortest distance back home is though JF
108 Alitalia744 : It means a combination of both. Additional news should be out soon, but this discussion hasn't just started and isn't anywhere near being over. I do
109 DeltaL1011man : I agree It didn't work for NW. Your are comparing NYC and ORD to Atlanta? You must be joking. Fine east Asia. So who are they basing it on? Cargo? Ot
110 Alitalia744 : Show me RASM and Yield #s and then you'll be able to qualify your statement....
111 DeltaL1011man : Prove to me how asking for a flight to be reduced means its making money? If it makes money Alitalia then please prove me wrong but when someone asks
112 Alitalia744 : Sometimes you have to rob peter to pay paul....
113 KingAir200 : That's all I was asking.
114 Lambert747 : Who flies GUM and PUS nonstop to the mainland USA? What US airline flies CAN nonstop to the mainland USA? Who said DL was looking at GUM, PUS, MNL, a
115 Post contains images Zippyjet : You know what? I say, make these big wig fatcats that we are probably going to bail out buy several 380's and of course 787's. Then, they can treat al
116 WorldTraveler : the point still remins that DL has the 2nd largest US carrier int'l hub in the US at ATL - second only to CO's O&D rich EWR hub - and ATL represents
117 KingAir200 : I just don't know about that. It all depends on what Delta has to offer. In all honesty, I don't think the union will be voted in when the vote is pr
118 WorldTraveler : but the NW employees don't vote any longer on their own. They will vote with all DL and NW employees in the same class/craft. Since DL CSA's (which i
119 KingAir200 : Yeah, I know that they will include DL employees who have similar jobs to those who are IAM at NWA in the vote. I was saying that if you break it dow
120 Transpac787 : You always seem to be very ill-informed or intentionally spin your responses as to reflect positively on your own argument. Either way, there is: CAN
121 Centrair : Being dropped at the end of October. Definition of the US... HNL-GUM on CO/CS But not from the Mainland Also we must keep in mind that NW runs HNL-KI
122 WorldTraveler : and adding to Centrair's comments, the original discussion was about what markets actually work and I refined that list to US carriers. SYD and MEL ar
123 Lambert747 : Service ends within a month. Past service on AA from ORD, NW/CO/HP from HNL, DL from PDX all failed as well. NW is the only airline able to consisten
124 STT757 : Kind of to steer the topic back to the 787s NWA/ DL are slated to receive, besides the discussion about whether or not NWA can receive compensation fo
125 Lambert747 : JL also operated NGO-LAX, NGO-HNL RG also operated NGO-LAX
126 Transpac787 : And by "most" it would imply a majority, which is still not correct. So, what's your point?? If there's no traffic rights, what's the point?? Stop br
127 DeltaL1011man : Never NEVER said they can't. From ATL will NOT happen Good for them. I can't wait for them to become number 1. Fact is if they look west then they ne
128 WorldTraveler : I specifically said US carriers. Including non-US carriers that don't even have local traffic rights doesn't mean there are viable routes to be flown
129 Gsosbee : Are you going to sell the 18 or trade? You indicated each. If the first ones will not fly the intended routes without weight penalties, you include t
130 Lambert747 : The point is that even though there are no traffic rights, the route is still flown. Take it for what it is worth, to understand the entire situation
131 DeltaL1011man : Should have been clearer and thats my bad. What I mean is you will not have a huge Asai hub from ATL. They should be able to make PEK,PVG,ICN,HKG,NRT
132 Papatango : What kind of time frame are you talking about before the announcemnet and what type or mix of aircraft.
133 Lambert747 : So in other words, to clarify.. NYC to Tokyo is a HIGH DEMAND route.. DTW nor SFO has South American connections, something that can greatly induce y
134 Transpac787 : No. SEA-NRT is about the max range the A333 will realistically do. Anything longer you'll want/need A332. Don't pretend to be confused, you know exac
135 Lambert747 : NYC-TYO is high yield, if not NH and JL would not be using higher premium seating cabins on their respective NYC routes. Dubai and Kuwait are not Asi
136 DeltaL1011man : agree. How many time do I have to say HKG,PEK and TPE should work from Atlanta?
137 Lambert747 : You argued that ATL would not work as an Asian hub, it has been proven false over and over again in this topic by WT, Bobnwa, and others. How does AT
138 DeltaL1011man : No I said OTHER THAN HKG,PVG,PEK,ICN,NRT AND MAYBE TPE ATL WILL NOT WORK. Atlanta has almost no O/D and I don't think you will be able to make the sm
139 WorldTraveler : Since Boeing is the only one who can do anything with DL/NW's 787 orders, DL will have to deal with Boeing in CONVERTING the 787 orders to 777s. The
140 DeltaL1011man : your right but after that its a big stretch.......and other than DEL I would say thats will be about it for Asia. (HKG,PEK,TPE and DEL. added to PVG,
141 Lambert747 : ATL does have the connectivity that no other airport in the USA on one single airline can offer. Think about this for a minute. People connect on a d
142 DeltaL1011man : And Delta will rule the world Alright show the numbers. And prove they are not DL FF's or SKY FF's if they have more than 5 people I will be shocked.
143 Centrair : On the subject of DL changing DTW-NGO to ATL-NGO... Not a good idea. 1) number of major auto manufacturers getting parts from Japanese manufacturers i
144 Transpac787 : Okay seriously, drop the random bolding of words and letters, we get your point just fine without your random emphasis. Of course it happens. That's
145 Bobnwa : DTW has better connections than SFO to Asia from WAS,NYC,ORD,BOS,etc. If that is true, why have you stated you will no longer support DL or fly them,
146 WorldTraveler : If DL can pull off that much from ATL, they will serve more of Asia from one US city than any other US airline does. And TLV is part of Asia. There i
147 STT757 : Your of course making the assumption that CO does not expand their Asian operations from EWR when their 8 777-200ERs, 8 787-8s and 17 787-9s arrive.
148 Lambert747 : Their are two scenarios being discussed. As has been described above operating DTW/ATL-NGO/KIX on split shcedules with all of the services commencing
149 Mayor : And these are delivered WHEN? At least two years down the road, isn't it? DL already has a head start on this Asia service, it looks like to me.
150 Transpac787 : Maybe I was not clear enough in my reply 144, so I will quote myself and then reword it just to ensure there is no confusion whatsoever. So, you clai
151 Lambert747 : You know as well as the next one that statistical data having to do with finances and route specific more so is not permissable to be posted outside
152 STT757 : Well the eight 777-200ERs start delivery in 2009, Shanghai begins in 2009.
153 Post contains links Transpac787 : As usual, you are wrong, yet again. Here's a good thread for you: http://www.airliners.net/aviation-fo...general_aviation/read.main/4084618 Delta yie
154 WorldTraveler : Not only does DL have a large headstart on CO in airplane deliveries - DL's 777 firm orders all arrive before CO's (just 2 before 2010) but NW's 787
155 Lambert747 : Again, exact dollar amounts per ticket per flight are exclusive information within DL. Now I must also draw to your attention of the well known yield
156 DeltaL1011man : Agree. You do miss the big dog of O/D though and that is LAX. Plus I'm not sure but wouldn't it be faster to fly DFW/IAH(to large O/D markets)-SFO-XX
157 Bobnwa : Yes but you said that SFO has better connections from the mentioned cities (WAS,NYC,ORD etc). They do not. Did you change your mind? I believe I said
158 WorldTraveler : I have said for years that there is alot of good reason for DL to develop LAX as a gateway to Asia. But you still can't accept - or haven't written i
159 Ocracoke : That was exactly my point three months ago when we were discussing the possibility of DL starting an ATL-SYD route, it the price of fuel ever came do
160 STT757 : CO has 25 firm 787 orders ( 8 787-8's, 17 787-9's) plus 35 options for any type of 787. CO also has 8 firm 777-200ERs on order, the first two arrive
161 WorldTraveler : not really. you are including routes CO willl start in 2009 but becuse DL has not announced its 2009 plans yet, you can't add those. It is a given th
162 Transpac787 : No necessarily. While the plane can make it, IAH-SYD passes through an ETOPS no-go triangle, even with ETOPS-207 rules. Boeing is pushing to get ETOP
163 STT757 : I included one route (singular, not plural as you suggest) in the CO list, it's EWR-PVG which is slated to start in March (you can purchase tickets e
164 NW748i : I distinctly remember on an earnings call around the time one of the delay announcements when someone asked whether NW would get compensation like JAL
165 WorldTraveler : If you are comfortable touting CO's position now, you may be in for a rude awakening by this time next year when DL will undoubtedly have 9 flights/d
166 Papatango : Please elaborate if possible.
167 STT757 : They already have, BOM moved to ATL.
168 Lambert747 : That figure has to be augmented as DL flies: ATL-DXB ATL-ICN ATL-KWI ATL-NRT ATL-PVG ATL-TLV JFK-AMM JFK-BOM to ATL-BOM JFK-IST JFK-TLV So the above
169 STT757 : If your going to include IST and AMM in an Asia list I'm going to count Guam as part of the US (both of which are accurate), so for accuracy sake: IA
170 Transpac787 : *sigh* What a hopeless support for argument. "I heard from a well-placed friend that....." Everyone and their brother on a.net has used this line as
171 Mayor : Just out of curiosity, where does YOUR info come from?
172 Transpac787 : Any specific replies/arguments in the above replies you were wondering about??
173 Post contains images Lambert747 : STT, Always great to joust with you!   Hey I was just playing devils advocate on this one.   [Edited 2008-09-30 14:02:40]
174 Lambert747 : Probably everything that you have posted..[Edited 2008-09-30 14:10:40]
175 DeltaL1011man : Really? I missed it when did they De-hub IAH? Shall I also remind you IAH has a better feed plus more O/D. (for Asia that is) Your kinding? its 5 mon
176 WorldTraveler : but that says nothing about backing off int'l growth. It simply says DL is reallocating ONE FLIGHT to a hub where there is more potential for profit.
177 Mayor : Nothing in particular, but your reply seems to imply that maybe, just maybe, some of your sources are not viable. Not that I'm surprised.
178 STT757 : They vote for President (although it does not count), you do not need a passport, they have American money, school children recite the Pledge of Alle
179 Mayor : If the Airbus thing is not the only reason, what are the others? Surely, not just because of the merger with NW??!! Oh, well....I'm sure your aunt ha
180 Rwy04LGA : ???? Did we miss that? Of course, you meant spring 2009.
181 Lambert747 : I thought it was a Grandfather that worked at LAX for a while?
182 WorldTraveler : no it doesn't. IAH has far fewer flights to far fewer cities. and if IAH is such a great Asian hub, why doesn't CO do more than fly to NRT? DL has pr
183 Alitalia744 : I presume you mean 2009 WT and yes the route rumors are very "creative" to say the least....
184 WorldTraveler : and there will be plenty of CO fans who will be saying, "why didn't they think of that?" DL has done more to develop NEW markets from NYC to the worl
185 Lambert747 : IAH does not connect the USA to LOS, DKR, SCL, ICN, PVG, SVO, TLV, or MXP, among hundreds of other markets. So why would you go off and make such a f
186 Lambert747 : CO took a pass on the EWR-LOS they planned with the 767-200 a few years back. CO has also played a wait and see game with MOW for years. Adding to al
187 Alitalia744 : I'm looking forward to both gasps - the routes and the terminal.
188 DeltaL1011man : So do u count NRT for NW? NRT for UA? If you don't count NRT (and I will remember this answer later when you bring up hoe DL is number 1 to Asia) the
189 STT757 : That's total garbage, DL bought most of their International network at JFK from Pan Am. And they let much of it go as they were clueless in what to d
190 Gsosbee : Unfortunately the CIA disagrees with you. While the official name is the Territory of Guam, it is owned by the US and US federal laws apply. https://
191 Transpac787 : In what way?? Number of flights or number of destinations?? NW definitely beats UA in number of destinations, but UA beats NW in number of flights.
192 DeltaL1011man : For Asia flights its not false. I love you guys will talk about something then when other post you bring up stuff like how IAH doesn't connect people
193 Ocracoke : Lambert, I don't need the time to re-read what you have typed. I was in the same thread as you, and I do not forget what I type. Nowhere did I say th
194 WorldTraveler : in terms of nonstop destinations served from the US, no. NW's routes from the US ALL are to Japan. That will change with DL. WHEN will that be? And D
195 Lambert747 : We have sparred a few times, and to be honest I am glad, you make me think.. In reference to the thread that you mention. I should have been more spe
196 Alitalia744 : According to Martha Wash it will be more like: 1/Delta announces new international expansion 2/Delta announces merger with Northwest DOJ approved and
197 Lambert747 : So my sources were correct. Very happy to have heard that! About Martha.. I am all about the announcements, very exciting times for DL-NW.
198 Alitalia744 : I'll presume you got the martha ref...
199 Lambert747 : Yes, New markets, that the majority would have never expected!
200 STT757 : Which domestic routes are they (DL) slashing to open up all these routes we would have never expected?.. Slots...
201 Alitalia744 : C'mon STT757, DL is going to merge with the PANYNJ and remove slot caps for DL alone at JFK. All foreign carriers and competiting airlines will now h
202 Post contains links STT757 : I don't know about that, but CO and the Port Authority got the GAO to slam the DOT's slot auction proposal. EWR was the first one up. http://www.reut
203 Post contains links Lambert747 : Sorry, on the news tonight in NYC the idea of "slots for auction" has been turned down. http://ap.google.com/article/ALeqM5j...yVlZuvvkA0mqeRQfLObUo5
204 OA412 : Does anyone have an approximate timeframe for when the new routes are to be announced?
205 Lambert747 : Take it for what it is worth.. Playing a game of semantics does not best EWR over JFK over LGA. They are all prominent airports each for a specific r
206 STT757 : I don't understand the point, most of those cities you listed are served from EWR. Further there are several international routes that operate only f
207 Bobnwa : Come on, we both know your nose is growing. We all know yoiu said that SFO had better connections to Asia than DTW from cities like WAS,NYC, and ORD.
208 Bobnwa : Not if you take away the OZ numbers for UA, which the trans-pac numbers reflect. Austrailia and New Zealand are not Asia. NW is the largest US airlin
209 WorldTraveler : Slot auctions have been overturned by the GAO - and likely will be dropped by the DOT... the airlines can keep the whole thing tied up in court f r 5
210 Lambert747 : The point as I stated previously is that all of those markets were served from one airport. Now if we are going to get even more technical why would
211 Gsosbee : I guess you are having a problem understanding Guam. It is treated just like the District of Columbia. Any FAA rule applicable to the US mainland is
212 STT757 : You stated JFK was the "true" International airport, you did not preface your comment by citing range etc.. I'm not disputing that JFK has probably t
213 WorldTraveler : I guess you don't understand I don't care about FAA rules in this discussion. I am talking about the 50 United States.... GUM is not one of them... n
214 Rwy04LGA : As LGA and JFK are already IN the confines of NYC, I'd say either of those. Mid-span of the Goethals Bridge is the closest EWR is to NYC, so a cab ri
215 Gsosbee : Maybe one day you will understand. Guam is not like PR or the VI. By your rules DCA cannot be considered since it is not one of the 50 states.
216 Beertrucker : I am wondering if anyone else reading this thinks like I do. I look forward to seeing what the new airline will bring to the table. But sitting here r
217 STT757 : It's more than 20 minutes, MTA says 25 minutes but I would say more like 30-35 minutes is more accurate. Again it all depends on time of day and wher
218 Alitalia744 : Sorry I'll argue with this one. Living on the UWS, LaGuardia is much more convenient - just hop across the Triboro and you're there...
219 WorldTraveler : there is no need for this to be a pi34ing contest. Just admit that GUM is not a US state. Neither is DC but it has a different legal status than GUM
220 STT757 : Tri-borough can be terrible, I got stuck on there for three hours all because of a stalled vehicle
221 WorldTraveler : which happens in cities all over the world where the largest population centers aren't even on an island.
222 Rwy04LGA : I take it 5 times weekly, but don't take my word for it. My condolences. My statement below acknowedges that SI is part of NYC, does it not? Don't ge
223 Alitalia744 : Got stuck in the Holland last week/end for about an HR because of a car fire. Happens anywhere... I've never had bad luck with the Triboro. LGA is a
224 DeltaL1011man : What part of when they 787s come do you not understand? Ummm.....good for them? I'll remember this when you say DL is number 1 to Asia So I guess no
225 STT757 : Traveling to JFK has the conveinence of a more robust LIRR schedule to/from Jamaica, more than half of NJ Transit train's don't even serve NY Penn th
226 Centrair : Okay I will say something crazy now... Does anyone else think that NW/DL will use KE even more after the merger? Seems almost more logical to use the
227 WorldTraveler : you apparently are missing the point that Boeing isn't delivering any airplanes and when they do, CO's 787s are still the same distance from the fron
228 Rwy04LGA : No to which question? No to both could be seen as contradictory. Penn Station NYP to JAM is scheduled for 20 minutes. Then, a 2 minute walk to the Ai
229 STT757 : Jamaica station is about 4 miles from JFK, then depending on what terminal you are going to you have to make additional stops at Federal Circle and a
230 Ocracoke : New, creative markets? There aren't too many of those left out there. Where will DL fly that no one flys right now.......? JFK-Libya JFK-Uruguay JFK-
231 Alitalia744 : There will be expansion.
232 Ocracoke : Any of those above places hit the mark, or must I guess furthar west (Asia), or south (more Mexico?), or north (the frozen tundra of Canada that no o
233 NW748i : Isn't that decision up to your mother? Seems that discord has erupted amongst the Deltoids since I last passed thru these parts.
234 Alitalia744 : Not in the 2009 flight plan, but maybe they'll launch the worlds first round-the-world non-stop ATL-ATL svc using a 77L? And you all said it was impo
235 Mayor : I think at least one of these isn't really a Deltoid.....just a wannabee. Or is that a "don't wannabee"??[Edited 2008-10-02 09:03:24]
236 Bobnwa : One thing to remember in all this. Neither Boeing or Northwest has ever said anything about compensation or if it was even being discussed.
237 STT757 : Everyone keeps speculating on how NWA could be compensated by Boeing for the 787, using comparisons like ANA etc.. No one has brought up the fact that
238 Bobnwa : You aren't suggesting that ANA and JAL are paying cash for their aircraft are you? Every airline that buys aircraft from Boeing or Airbus is in debt
239 Lambert747 : Their are plenty of "creative" markets left. You may have to do some research on NYC VFR markets with a mix of healthy business as well. Wrong, they
240 Rwy04LGA : It's been a bit bumpy. 'How much and who do I make it payable to?.....somebody gotta pen?'
241 STT757 : Of course not, I'm saying they (ANA, JAL) never defaulted on a payment, forced a renegotiation of contracts through a bankruptcy court judge or retur
242 Lambert747 : I know it was only the US airlines that ever did that.. CO 2x, UA, DL, NW, US 2x, HP, HA, AQ 2x, TZ, and how many others?
243 STT757 : Lambert please, the topic is NWA seeking compensation from Boeing. My point is Boeing might not owe NWA anything, NWA might have used up any good wil
244 N801NW : NW said that they did address the possibility of a bankruptcy with Boeing in their 787 purchase order. The only concrete thing I am aware of was an ag
245 Lambert747 : Wasnt it 1983 and 1990?[Edited 2008-10-02 19:28:57]
246 Alitalia744 : There are discussions happening STT757 - between NWA (DL) and Boeing on the Boeing 787 situation. The plan should be public post DOJ approval. Thanks
247 STT757 : Boeings going to build them a new terminal at JFK? Just kidding.
248 Lambert747 : Well, could you blame them for trying...
249 STT757 : You never know unless you ask.
250 Alitalia744 : Of course they are STT757, why do you think Boeing's holding out on the strike? When Delta acquires the Boeing Company, they'll force the unions out
251 Post contains links STT757 : I think WorldTraveler might be convinced of that, check out the SQ EWR-SIN thread. He's working the Airbus fans into a frenzy with his pro Boeing spi
252 WorldTraveler : it's a Friday.... billions are about ready to flow from your ancestors to Wall Street and Main Street.... it's one big party in America today. the re
253 Ocracoke : Where is the launch pad for the first DL JFK-moon flight going to be? Will that be part of the Boeing deal as well?
254 Mayor : Once the moonshot is successful, will DL have the range to go to Mars, Jupiter, Saturn, Neptune, etc? Will the yields be there? What kind of scope cla
255 Transpac787 : Nonrevving is, easily, the most important aspect of the new flights. As it is with any flight, of course, but even more so in this case.
256 Mayor : I don't think I'd like to get bumped and spend any extra time on Uranus (the planet!).
257 Lambert747 : I love it, great sumamtion of that thread.. While everyone likes to knock WT around he always seems to get all of the feathers of the opposing side i
258 Rwy04LGA : Absolutely! It's what I live for.
259 Post contains links Nycbjr : well I thought since this thread was so long and this was posted so recently on flightglobal that it warranted a new thread, so it was removed. nbd so
260 WorldTraveler : people who think that I am pro Boeing and anti-Airbus will be pleased to know that I am happy to see NW delivering a message like this - which probabl
261 DL Widget Head : This message is laying the ground work for some interesting developments soon to come. WT, congrats on your 5000th!
262 STT757 : Thhey might have gotten earlier delivery slots than CO, but they did not commit any earlier nor did they orders as many as CO. CO ordered the 787 whe
263 Lambert747 : The 787 is not the be all end all that everyone is making it out to be. There is a chance, that is an outside chance that the delay in the program co
264 Gsosbee : Hard seeing DL pick the Airbus products for a couple of reasons. First, T7's from Boeing will be relative cheap when you calculate in the compensatio
265 WorldTraveler : first, DL's senior mgmt was at NW when the Airbuses were operating. They know the airplane. Airbus regularly visits ATL and they know they had better
266 Lambert747 : Both are in a race for the DL order, when it may come into fruition. It is all going to come down to what manufacturer will listen and deliver the pr
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