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DL/NW Merger And ORD Terminals: T2 Or T3?  
User currently offlineFWAERJ From United States of America, joined Jun 2006, 3717 posts, RR: 2
Posted (5 years 10 months 6 days 22 hours ago) and read 5411 times:

One of the big unanswered questions in the Delta/NWA merger is: Which terminals will the merged airline use at airports where the two airlines operate out of different terminals?

And one of those airports is ORD, my former hometown airport. There, DL operates at Terminal 3, in Concourse L, a concourse they built in the 1980s (where some gates are subleased to AA). And NW operates out of Terminal 2 Concourse E. Both airlines operate lounges in their respective terminals (NW's is shared with CO right now, but CO is leaving SkyTeam for Star).

Still, there us a unique dilemma: Neither airline has the capacity at their existing gates to handle the combined carrier. However, if AA cancels their subleases at T3 Concourse L, DL could easily run the combined operation out of there with the 11 gates. If this happens, who would take over NW's five gates at T2 Concourse E... B6, VX, or UA? Another possibility is CO moving to T1 with UA and having DL take over CO's gates, with AA taking over the balance of Concourse L.

Has anyone heard any mumblings over what terminal the merged DL is going to use at ORD?


I don't work for FWA, their tenants, or their ad agency. But I still love FWA.
46 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently onlineCubsrule From United States of America, joined May 2004, 22719 posts, RR: 20
Reply 1, posted (5 years 10 months 6 days 22 hours ago) and read 5380 times:



Quoting FWAERJ (Thread starter):
Another possibility is CO moving to T1 with UA and having DL take over CO's gates, with AA taking over the balance of Concourse L.

That would be my guess. Although AA doesn't really need the gates on L, losing those 5 gates would mean that 75s and 76s cannot sit at gates for hours and hours, something that would present an operational headache. Even though DL built L, it's not that nice-- I'd say they're not really leaving anything important behind.



I can't decide whether I miss the tulip or the bowling shoe more
User currently offlineMayor From United States of America, joined Mar 2008, 10347 posts, RR: 14
Reply 2, posted (5 years 10 months 6 days 21 hours ago) and read 5339 times:



Quoting Cubsrule (Reply 1):
Even though DL built L, it's not that nice-- I'd say they're not really leaving anything important behind.

Yeah, it seems kind of dated and dark, nowadays. At the time it was opened, it was a big improvement over the gates on H that we used to operate out of. Of course, everything at ORD seems to be kind of industrial, instead of open and airy....warm and inviting to the customers. Can't speak about the int'l terminal as I haven't seen those gates.



"A committee is a group of the unprepared, appointed by the unwilling, to do the unnecessary"----Fred Allen
User currently offlineApodino From United States of America, joined Apr 2005, 4234 posts, RR: 6
Reply 3, posted (5 years 10 months 6 days 21 hours ago) and read 5267 times:

Well, assuming for a second that DL terminates the lease on AA in L, they could consolate their whole operations in L. I just happened to notice something else. Assuming that NW and DL consolodate in L, this is what the Airport looks like.

Termial 1
United
International Star Alliance Departures

Terminal 2
United Express
All other Domestic Star Alliance Carriers
JetBlue (Who may join star one day with their Lufthansa deal)

Terminal 3
AA (G H, and K)
DL (L)

So what you have is Star completely controlling 1 and 2, AA controlling most of 3, with Delta controlling L. This seems to keep all the alliances together.


User currently onlineCubsrule From United States of America, joined May 2004, 22719 posts, RR: 20
Reply 4, posted (5 years 10 months 6 days 21 hours ago) and read 5249 times:



Quoting Apodino (Reply 3):
Well, assuming for a second that DL terminates the lease on AA in L, they could consolate their whole operations in L.

Is there a provision in the sub-lease allowing them to do that? If I were AA, I wouldn't sign such a deal unless I really had to.



I can't decide whether I miss the tulip or the bowling shoe more
User currently offlineApodino From United States of America, joined Apr 2005, 4234 posts, RR: 6
Reply 5, posted (5 years 10 months 6 days 21 hours ago) and read 5231 times:

Thats another argument for CUTE. That being said, why would AA want to hold on to those gates. They are trimming capacity, and trying to cut costs. If they are cutting capacity, wouldn't it be prudent to cut the leases on those gates anyways, that way they can save a few bucks.

User currently onlineCubsrule From United States of America, joined May 2004, 22719 posts, RR: 20
Reply 6, posted (5 years 10 months 6 days 21 hours ago) and read 5209 times:



Quoting Apodino (Reply 5):
If they are cutting capacity, wouldn't it be prudent to cut the leases on those gates anyways, that way they can save a few bucks.

I don't know if it'll cut costs. They love to park planes on gates for hours on end, and they'll have to do something else with them if they don't have access to the gates.

The other issue here is ticket counter space. DL and NW have enough individually, but I don't think there's sufficient counter space in T-3 for both of them, and unless CO moves to T-1 and/or UA vacates the space it uses for kiosks in T-2, I don't think there's sufficient room in T-2 either.



I can't decide whether I miss the tulip or the bowling shoe more
User currently offlineTwa902FLY From United States of America, joined Dec 1999, 3122 posts, RR: 4
Reply 7, posted (5 years 10 months 6 days 21 hours ago) and read 5209 times:



Quoting Mayor (Reply 2):
Yeah, it seems kind of dated and dark, nowadays. At the time it was opened, it was a big improvement over the gates on H that we used to operate out of

While I agree with you, I very much prefer DL's T3 gates to NW's T2 gates. Just to get to them you have to get passed about 95 CRJs-worth of United Express people packed into two gates, as well as US, CO, B6 gates. I have never been there (other than arriving late at night) at a time when it wasnt overpacked with people, And NW gates are the last in the concourse.

'902



life wasn't worth the balance, or the crumpled paper it was written on
User currently offlineMayor From United States of America, joined Mar 2008, 10347 posts, RR: 14
Reply 8, posted (5 years 10 months 6 days 20 hours ago) and read 5190 times:



Quoting Cubsrule (Reply 6):
The other issue here is ticket counter space.

Who's counters are on the left of DL's in T-3, now? Seems like DL only occupied about 1/3 of that area.



"A committee is a group of the unprepared, appointed by the unwilling, to do the unnecessary"----Fred Allen
User currently onlineCubsrule From United States of America, joined May 2004, 22719 posts, RR: 20
Reply 9, posted (5 years 10 months 6 days 20 hours ago) and read 5183 times:



Quoting Mayor (Reply 8):
Who's counters are on the left of DL's in T-3, now?

NK and IB. I presume that NK would want to move if DL moves.



I can't decide whether I miss the tulip or the bowling shoe more
User currently offlineAmricanShamrok From Ireland, joined May 2008, 2872 posts, RR: 0
Reply 10, posted (5 years 10 months 6 days 20 hours ago) and read 5118 times:



Quoting Mayor (Reply 2):
Can't speak about the int'l terminal as I haven't seen those gates.

T1 & T5 are much better (airy/bright etc.) than the other two.

Quoting Apodino (Reply 3):
Termial 1
United
International Star Alliance Departures

Terminal 2
United Express
All other Domestic Star Alliance Carriers
JetBlue (Who may join star one day with their Lufthansa deal)

Terminal 3
AA (G H, and K)
DL (L)

Irish airports are supposed to be getting full CBP inspections in 2010 eliminating the need for Aer Lingus to operate from an international terminal. So they could be moving too.



Shannon-Chicago
User currently offlineMayor From United States of America, joined Mar 2008, 10347 posts, RR: 14
Reply 11, posted (5 years 10 months 6 days 20 hours ago) and read 5115 times:

Also, if AA were

Quoting AmricanShamrok (Reply 10):
Irish airports are supposed to be getting full CBP inspections in 2010

Off topic a little but would this also apply to DL's flights into ATL and JFK?



"A committee is a group of the unprepared, appointed by the unwilling, to do the unnecessary"----Fred Allen
User currently offlineJacobin777 From United States of America, joined Sep 2004, 14968 posts, RR: 60
Reply 12, posted (5 years 10 months 6 days 20 hours ago) and read 5085 times:



Quoting Apodino (Reply 3):
So what you have is Star completely controlling 1 and 2, AA controlling most of 3, with Delta controlling L. This seems to keep all the alliances together.

Actually, besides IB which departs from Terminal 3, the international One World carriers such as BA, unlike Star Alliance carriers such as LH (which depart from Terminal One), depart from the International Terminal.



Quoting Apodino (Reply 5):
Thats another argument for CUTE. That being said, why would AA want to hold on to those gates. They are trimming capacity, and trying to cut costs. If they are cutting capacity, wouldn't it be prudent to cut the leases on those gates anyways, that way they can save a few bucks.



Quoting Cubsrule (Reply 6):

I don't know if it'll cut costs. They love to park planes on gates for hours on end, and they'll have to do something else with them if they don't have access to the gates.

 checkmark 



"Up the Irons!"
User currently offlineFWAERJ From United States of America, joined Jun 2006, 3717 posts, RR: 2
Reply 13, posted (5 years 10 months 6 days 18 hours ago) and read 4976 times:



Quoting Apodino (Reply 5):
That being said, why would AA want to hold on to those gates. They are trimming capacity, and trying to cut costs. If they are cutting capacity, wouldn't it be prudent to cut the leases on those gates anyways, that way they can save a few bucks.

To block the entry of VX into ORD, of course. If VX takes over the former NW gates, at least two of AA's big moneymaking routes (LAX-ORD and SFO-ORD) would be under attack.

Of course, UA could grab the NW gates at T2 as well for the same reason, but they don't need the gates either...



I don't work for FWA, their tenants, or their ad agency. But I still love FWA.
User currently offlineMisbeehavin From United States of America, joined Mar 2005, 914 posts, RR: 3
Reply 14, posted (5 years 10 months 6 days 18 hours ago) and read 4963 times:

I hope DL doesn't move from L. ORD is a cluster at the best of times, and DL tucked away in that corner makes life so much easier!

User currently onlineCubsrule From United States of America, joined May 2004, 22719 posts, RR: 20
Reply 15, posted (5 years 10 months 6 days 18 hours ago) and read 4963 times:



Quoting FWAERJ (Reply 13):
If VX takes over the former NW gates, at least two of AA's big moneymaking routes (LAX-ORD and SFO-ORD) would be under attack.

Under what mechanism would VX take the gates over?



I can't decide whether I miss the tulip or the bowling shoe more
User currently offlineWorldTraveler From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 16, posted (5 years 10 months 6 days 18 hours ago) and read 4914 times:



Quoting Misbeehavin (Reply 14):
I hope DL doesn't move from L. ORD is a cluster at the best of times, and DL tucked away in that corner makes life so much easier!

totally agree....

There is a team working at airport coordination.... man of the decisions have already been made but not made public.

DL not only has done its homework but will pull off the smoothest merger of its size in the airline industry - not because DL can not fail but because they are working very hard to make the deal a win- win-win for all involved. No one wants to put their efforts forward if it will not yield any positive results for them but that is not what DL is about - either now or for the merger.

I have said before and I will say it again: DL's transformation will be the stuff that business schools talk about - remember that it was just 3 years ago that DL was on the verge of collapse. They now are posting some of the best financial results in the US airline industry and are on the verge of creating the world's largest airline. Whether you like DL or NW or not, you cannot argue with the remarkable transformation that DL and NW have done individually and what they have committed to doing together.

Those of you who argue that DL is simply acquiring NW might do well to remember that NW's stock is being exchanged - meaning NW's stockholders become DL's stockholders. All of those stockholders are going to demand that DL use everything in its power to return the highest value to them - the owners of both companies now and one company in just a couple months.


User currently offlineApodino From United States of America, joined Apr 2005, 4234 posts, RR: 6
Reply 17, posted (5 years 10 months 6 days 18 hours ago) and read 4903 times:



Quoting FWAERJ (Reply 13):
To block the entry of VX into ORD, of course. If VX takes over the former NW gates, at least two of AA's big moneymaking routes (LAX-ORD and SFO-ORD) would be under attack.

Of course, UA could grab the NW gates at T2 as well for the same reason, but they don't need the gates either...

As I have said before, if Airport authorities go to a CUTE system, this problem is solved, and there is nothing AA could do about it. Gate Leases are anti competitive because it allows airlines to snag up gates they have no intention of using, just to keep competition out. LAS learned this years ago, and fortunately most of the newer terminals are being built with this in mind. (DTW North Terminal comes to mind. There are still assigned gates, but they can't keep competitors out like they used to) I know people don't like the software issues and the branding issues and stuff like that, but its for the greater good of the whole airport and market in the long run.

That being said. I wouldn't be surprised if UA did grab the NW gates. The RJ gates in 2 are pretty crowded enough as it is, and this would allow them more room for that sort of thing. Also, US could use another gate as well. And as long as VX has the ability to serve Terminal 5 (Which can handle domestic flights even as an international terminal), there is no way that AA is going to keep VX out of ORD. The other thing you fail to mention is LAX-ORD and LAX-SFO already has competition from UA, and runs widebody AC frequently on both routes. Plus the LAX market has competition from WN over at MDW, and I believe they serve SFO from there, and if not there at least OAK.


User currently onlineCubsrule From United States of America, joined May 2004, 22719 posts, RR: 20
Reply 18, posted (5 years 10 months 6 days 18 hours ago) and read 4891 times:



Quoting Apodino (Reply 17):
Gate Leases are anti competitive because it allows airlines to snag up gates they have no intention of using, just to keep competition out.

Why have property rights at all, then?

Quoting Apodino (Reply 17):
Also, US could use another gate as well.

I'm not so sure. They've dropped PIT and LAS may not be long for the world.

Quoting Apodino (Reply 17):
And as long as VX has the ability to serve Terminal 5 (Which can handle domestic flights even as an international terminal), there is no way that AA is going to keep VX out of ORD.

...unless VX doesn't want to pay to use Terminal 5 and/or wants to have an afternoon flight or two.



I can't decide whether I miss the tulip or the bowling shoe more
User currently offlineUnited1 From United States of America, joined Oct 2003, 5930 posts, RR: 9
Reply 19, posted (5 years 10 months 6 days 16 hours ago) and read 4782 times:

I think they might be able to squeeze it all in at the current DL gates.

DL has 5 mainline gates at ORD plus two RJ parking spots at the end of the concourse.

DL/NW + NK (as they are handled by DL at ORD) fly 45 flights a day out of ORD. 13 of which are RJs, and 32 are mainline aircraft.


32 flights out of 5 mainline gates works out at 6.4 flights a day (if you park the RJ900s at mainline gates it works out to 7.8 flights a day.)

13 flights out of 2 RJ stands works out to 6.5 flights a day (or 3 flights a day depending on where you park the RJ900s)

I'm sure there would have to be some re timing in order to make it all work and the above is assuming no schedule cuts but I think they could do it.



Semper Fi - PowerPoint makes us stupid.
User currently offlineMir From United States of America, joined Jan 2004, 21513 posts, RR: 55
Reply 20, posted (5 years 10 months 6 days 16 hours ago) and read 4749 times:



Quoting AmricanShamrok (Reply 10):
Irish airports are supposed to be getting full CBP inspections in 2010 eliminating the need for Aer Lingus to operate from an international terminal. So they could be moving too.

ORD doesn't exactly have a plethora of widebody gates available outside of the International Terminal. So I'd expect Aer Lingus to stay there. Whether pax would clear border formalities in Ireland or ORD would be something to be worked out.

-Mir



7 billion, one nation, imagination...it's a beautiful day
User currently offlineAirportPlan From United States of America, joined Jan 2004, 469 posts, RR: 3
Reply 21, posted (5 years 10 months 6 days 15 hours ago) and read 4678 times:



Quoting Apodino (Reply 5):
Thats another argument for CUTE. That being said, why would AA want to hold on to those gates. They are trimming capacity, and trying to cut costs. If they are cutting capacity, wouldn't it be prudent to cut the leases on those gates anyways, that way they can save a few bucks.

ORD cannot go CUTE until the current domestic gate lease agreement expire in 2017.

AA needs the L gates almost half of its 777 operations. It does not have enough 777 gates on H&K concourses. Don't expect AA to vacate the L gates until its sublease agreement with DL expires in 2014.


User currently offlineAmricanShamrok From Ireland, joined May 2008, 2872 posts, RR: 0
Reply 22, posted (5 years 10 months 6 days 15 hours ago) and read 4649 times:



Quoting Mir (Reply 20):
ORD doesn't exactly have a plethora of widebody gates available outside of the International Terminal. So I'd expect Aer Lingus to stay there. Whether pax would clear border formalities in Ireland or ORD would be something to be worked out.

Yeah could happen seeing as the International terminal is also the least congested too.



Shannon-Chicago
User currently offlineDeltaL1011man From United States of America, joined Sep 2005, 9289 posts, RR: 14
Reply 23, posted (5 years 10 months 6 days 13 hours ago) and read 4545 times:



Quoting AirportPlan (Reply 21):
Don't expect AA to vacate the L gates until its sublease agreement with DL expires in 2014.

I'm sure that Delta would be smart and put some kind of clause in a contract so that if they needed the gates they could get at least one or two back before 2014. Maybe not though.



yep.
User currently offlineMayor From United States of America, joined Mar 2008, 10347 posts, RR: 14
Reply 24, posted (5 years 10 months 6 days 13 hours ago) and read 4534 times:



Quoting DeltaL1011man (Reply 23):
I'm sure that Delta would be smart and put some kind of clause in a contract so that if they needed the gates they could get at least one or two back before 2014. Maybe not though.

DL's operations have been steadily dropping at ORD since the early 80's. In the 70's we had 90 flights a day, including widebodies.

Not sure when the contract was signed with AA for those gates on L, but I would hope there is just such a clause in it. The contract may have been around the time of "7.5" and they were cost cutting like crazy, with no regard to future consequences.



"A committee is a group of the unprepared, appointed by the unwilling, to do the unnecessary"----Fred Allen
25 Jfr : T2 is best for DL and NW: Terminal 1 to Star's Terminal 2 to Sky's Terminal 3 to One's If DL/NW move to T3, then it's: Terminal 1 to Star's Terminal 2
26 DL Widget Head : I hope not either. I rather like L better than the NW gates for many reasons. L is less busy, not as far a walk from ticketing, seems a bit more spac
27 CrAAzy : Or until the K concourse extension should be complete which will result in a net increase of 5 gates for AA.
28 AirportPlan : I read the AA/DL sublease agreement about 5 years ago. As far as I remember those 5 L gates are AAs through 2014 unless AA decides to terminate the a
29 STT757 : You never see a lease where the owner has a clause to evict the tenant at anytime without cause (no payment), you do however see leases where the ten
30 Brilondon : Doesn't T-5 handle all the international arrivals and some of the international departures. I have been through this terminal and I do like it but it
31 WA707atMSP : Pre 9/11, there were plans to move all non Star and One World carriers to T5, demolish T2, and replace it with a new international terminal for AA an
32 United1 : I remember the plan a little differently then that. Terminal 1 UA Domestic (I think the plan called for building concourse A for UX) Terminal 2 Star
33 Ckfred : The advantage of L is that the center aisle is much wider than E/F in T2, so foot traffic moves more easily. Also, if the schedule gets out of whack
34 ElBandGeek : The problem there is Skyteam doesn't needp all of T2 and UA can't fit all their own ops in T1 let alone US and eventually CO. Except this plan was la
35 Cubsrule : They could also use Terminal 6 for this, which would have the added advantage of easy transfers for the few DL and NW passengers that transfer to AF,
36 ElBandGeek : I don't get what you're saying. Either way would have all Skyteam (DL, AF, KL, AZ) and non-allianced airlines would be operating out of the same term
37 Cubsrule : AA and OneWorld don't need all of 5, though. AA, OneWorld, and independent/Skyteam international carriers could easily fit in 5 with domestic Skyteam
38 727LOVER : Doesn't NW have Chicago-Tokyo authority? Do they still operate it? Will DL?
39 Cubsrule : No; they cut it in 2001 or so. Against 4 competitors? I don't see why they would.
40 WA707atMSP : NW ended ORD-NRT in 1998, a few weeks after AA was awarded the route. Don't expect it to return unless UA or AA is liquidated. What would make the mo
41 Cubsrule : That would be more expensive, though, as it would require construction of another FIS facility. An additional hour? Come on... All that's added is a
42 WA707atMSP : The international gates at DTW and MSP are in the heart of the domestic terminals at both airports, so passengers making international to domestic co
43 Cubsrule : A passenger connecting to MQ at ORD is going to have less walking than a passenger connecting to most Airlink flights at either MSP or DTW. There's n
44 WA707atMSP : Agreed, but a passenger connecting to a 757 will almost always have a shorter walk at MSP or DTW.
45 Transpac787 : You know, you could have just ended your post there. I guess you still found the better course of action as being 3 paragraphs of pro-merger propagan
46 Cubsrule : That depends on the airline and the destination; if it's a (UA) Business One destination, the walk will almost assuredly be shorter at ORD. It's impo
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