Sponsor Message:
Civil Aviation Forum
My Starred Topics | Profile | New Topic | Forum Index | Help | Search 
US Carrier Intl Route Profitability 02Q08  
User currently offlineLAXintl From United States of America, joined May 2000, 25416 posts, RR: 49
Posted (6 years 18 hours ago) and read 6286 times:

With the great focus of US carriers on international flying, here is the US carriers international route performance for the 2nd quarter 2008 as reported to the DOT.

Some bleak numbers for many

Atlantic

American
Operating Revenue Per ASM:15.35
Operating Expense Per ASM:17.90
Profit/Loss per ASM:-2.55
Yield per RPM(cents):13.87

Continental
Operating Revenue Per ASM:12.70
Operating Expense Per ASM:11.15
Profit/Loss per ASM:+1.55
Yield per RPM(cents):13.67

Delta
Operating Revenue Per ASM:12.93
Operating Expense Per ASM:13.22
Profit/Loss per ASM:-0.29
Yield per RPM(cents):13.16

Northwest
Operating Revenue Per ASM:12.25
Operating Expense Per ASM:11.38
Profit/Loss per ASM:+0.87
Yield per RPM(cents):12.47

United
Operating Revenue Per ASM:14.12
Operating Expense Per ASM:13.52
Profit/Loss per ASM:+0.60
Yield per RPM(cents):14.47

US Airways
Operating Revenue Per ASM:15.45
Operating Expense Per ASM:17.78
Profit/Loss per ASM:-2.34
Yield per RPM(cents):11.96


Latin

American
Operating Revenue Per ASM:15.39
Operating Expense Per ASM:16.74
Profit/Loss per ASM:-1.35
Yield per RPM(cents):15.35

Continental
Operating Revenue Per ASM:15.23
Operating Expense Per ASM:12.94
Profit/Loss per ASM:+2.29
Yield per RPM(cents):14.98

Delta
Operating Revenue Per ASM:13.01
Operating Expense Per ASM:13.16
Profit/Loss per ASM:-0.15
Yield per RPM(cents):13.38

United
Operating Revenue Per ASM:12.63
Operating Expense Per ASM:12.84
Profit/Loss per ASM:-0.21
Yield per RPM(cents):13.90

US Airways
Operating Revenue Per ASM:17.86
Operating Expense Per ASM:20.13
Profit/Loss per ASM:-2.27
Yield per RPM(cents):13.87


Pacific

American
Operating Revenue Per ASM:15.59
Operating Expense Per ASM:18.38
Profit/Loss per ASM:-2.79
Yield per RPM(cents):13.29

Continental
Operating Revenue Per ASM:11.98
Operating Expense Per ASM:9.71
Profit/Loss per ASM:+2.27
Yield per RPM(cents):12.40

Delta
Operating Revenue Per ASM:12.30
Operating Expense Per ASM:13.51
Profit/Loss per ASM:-1.21
Yield per RPM(cents):11.86

Northwest
Operating Revenue Per ASM:12.43
Operating Expense Per ASM:13.34
Profit/Loss per ASM:-0.91
Yield per RPM(cents):11.45

United
Operating Revenue Per ASM:12.53
Operating Expense Per ASM:12.16
Profit/Loss per ASM:+0.37
Yield per RPM(cents):13.06


From the desert to the sea, to all of Southern California
32 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineRL757PVD From United States of America, joined Dec 1999, 4675 posts, RR: 11
Reply 1, posted (6 years 18 hours ago) and read 6264 times:

Didn't someone point out last time that each carrier allocates revenue differnently? I seem to recall reading how CO allocates more revenue toward their INTL segments, making INTL look better, whereas its pretty much the opposite at DL.


Experience is what you get when what you thought would work out didn't!
User currently offlineAznMadSci From United States of America, joined Dec 2007, 3670 posts, RR: 5
Reply 2, posted (6 years 18 hours ago) and read 6247 times:

How raw is this data? It seems CO showed profit across the board while AA and DL not looking too shabby. I can only imagine the war and bending of word and data, especially between CO fans and DL fans!  box 


The journey of life is not based on the accomplishments, but the experience.
User currently offlineUnited1 From United States of America, joined Oct 2003, 5960 posts, RR: 9
Reply 3, posted (6 years 17 hours ago) and read 6190 times:



Quoting RL757PVD (Reply 1):
Didn't someone point out last time that each carrier allocates revenue differnently? I seem to recall reading how CO allocates more revenue toward their INTL segments, making INTL look better, whereas its pretty much the opposite at DL.

From what I remember...

DL & NW allocate more to the domestic side
CO allocates more to the international side
UA, AA & US are fairly even



Semper Fi - PowerPoint makes us stupid.
User currently offlineApodino From United States of America, joined Apr 2005, 4280 posts, RR: 6
Reply 4, posted (6 years 17 hours ago) and read 6126 times:

Something doesn't make sense. Why is US operating Expense so much more than anyone else? If they could get this inline with everything else, maybe they wouldn't have to charge for Drinks?

User currently offlineLAXdude1023 From India, joined Sep 2006, 7616 posts, RR: 24
Reply 5, posted (6 years 17 hours ago) and read 6073 times:

Man, AA's operating costs sure are high.


Stewed...Lewd...Crude...Irreverent...Belligerent
User currently offlineLAXintl From United States of America, joined May 2000, 25416 posts, RR: 49
Reply 6, posted (6 years 17 hours ago) and read 6025 times:

Here is the domestic data for Q2 also.


American
Operating Revenue Per ASM:14.37
Operating Expense Per ASM:18.01
Profit/Loss per ASM:-3.64
Yield per RPM(cents):13.36

Continental
Operating Revenue Per ASM:17.23
Operating Expense Per ASM:19.48
Profit/Loss per ASM:-2.25
Yield per RPM(cents):13.10

Delta
Operating Revenue Per ASM:20.05
Operating Expense Per ASM:18.91
Profit/Loss per ASM:+1.13
Yield per RPM(cents):13.25

Northwest
Operating Revenue Per ASM:20.44
Operating Expense Per ASM:18.24
Profit/Loss per ASM:+2.20
Yield per RPM(cents):14.36

United
Operating Revenue Per ASM:16.80
Operating Expense Per ASM:17.95
Profit/Loss per ASM:-1.14
Yield per RPM(cents):13.29

US Airways
Operating Revenue Per ASM:17.61
Operating Expense Per ASM:20.51
Profit/Loss per ASM:-2.91
Yield per RPM(cents):13.60



From the desert to the sea, to all of Southern California
User currently offlineJetlanta From United States of America, joined Jul 2001, 3297 posts, RR: 35
Reply 7, posted (6 years 17 hours ago) and read 5988 times:



Quoting RL757PVD (Reply 1):
Didn't someone point out last time that each carrier allocates revenue differnently? I seem to recall reading how CO allocates more revenue toward their INTL segments, making INTL look better, whereas its pretty much the opposite at DL.



Quoting United1 (Reply 3):
From what I remember...

DL & NW allocate more to the domestic side
CO allocates more to the international side
UA, AA & US are fairly even

Basically.

These numbers really tell you nothing. It's a network business, all that really matters is system profitability anyway. Take these regional breakdowns with a grain of salt. They aren't worth much.


User currently offline744 From United States of America, joined Aug 2001, 448 posts, RR: 0
Reply 8, posted (6 years 16 hours ago) and read 5880 times:

Where's Air Canada? Can someone please post AC's #'s in here as well?
Thnxs
744


User currently offlineScottB From United States of America, joined Jul 2000, 6764 posts, RR: 32
Reply 9, posted (6 years 16 hours ago) and read 5833 times:



Quoting 744 (Reply 8):
Where's Air Canada?

Air Canada isn't a US carrier.


User currently offlineWorldTraveler From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 10, posted (6 years 16 hours ago) and read 5784 times:



Quoting Jetlanta (Reply 7):
Basically.

These numbers really tell you nothing. It's a network business, all that really matters is system profitability anyway. Take these regional breakdowns with a grain of salt. They aren't worth much.

there are also alot of other revenues that go into determining profitability and as the airline product is increasingly "unbundled", the disparities between carriers report data will only grow.


and a reminder that DL was the only US network carrier that produced an operating profit on a system mainline basis for 2Q08.


User currently offlinePHXtoDCAtoMSP From United States of America, joined Feb 2008, 299 posts, RR: 0
Reply 11, posted (6 years 13 hours ago) and read 5598 times:

Can someone explain to me why so many of the yield numbers are less than the RASM number. That would be absolutely impossible unless the flight operated with over 100% loads. Yield is revenue divided by RPMs....and RASM is Revenue divided by ASMs. Clearly there are more ASMs than RPMs...meaning that yield would have to be righer than RASM. RASM is basically yield times load factor.

But it is definitely a tough environment out there. Everyone added international capacity for this year and fuel increased and yields stayed roughly flat or declined. Most carriers probably saw relatively flat to negative RASM growth internationally while CASM was WAYY up.


User currently offlineEXAAUADL From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 12, posted (6 years 12 hours ago) and read 5511 times:



Quoting LAXdude1023 (Reply 5):
Man, AA's operating costs sure are high.

I dont believe those numbers for AA on the Atlantic.. They are too much of an outlier. US perhaps if their 762s are expensive. Domestically the numbers look inline.

Quoting PHXtoDCAtoMSP (Reply 11):
Can someone explain to me why so many of the yield numbers are less than the RASM number

Yiled may be pax yild only. RASM might include cargo, additional fees etc

DOT DB1A numbers are not always correct. Anyways DOT doesnt usually have CASM numbers, at least not DB1A. Form 41 has that.

Quoting 744 (Reply 8):
Where's Air Canada? Can someone please post AC's #'s in here as well?
Thnxs
744

Canadian carriers performance stats arent published. I knew someone from AC and they didnt have access to WS's performace. It wasnt published as extensively by the govt there.


User currently offlineFlyDreamliner From United States of America, joined Jan 2006, 2759 posts, RR: 15
Reply 13, posted (6 years 11 hours ago) and read 5366 times:

My God, how does US continue to operate with such tremendous losses?

Continental seems to be in great financial shape, no surprise there. UA, AA, and DL seem to be doing okay.

Is the poor performance, in general, a result of the fuel spike?



"Let the world change you, and you can change the world"
User currently offlineMasseyBrown From United States of America, joined Dec 2002, 5438 posts, RR: 7
Reply 14, posted (6 years 9 hours ago) and read 5264 times:



Quoting WorldTraveler (Reply 10):
and a reminder that DL was the only US network carrier that produced an operating profit on a system mainline basis for 2Q08.

Discounting goodwill impairment charges (as Delta does to make this claim), US Airways also showed an operating profit for the second quarter.



I love long German words like 'Freundschaftsbezeigungen'.
User currently offlineHohd From United States of America, joined May 2008, 425 posts, RR: 0
Reply 15, posted (6 years ago) and read 4479 times:

According to the information posted, US airways is showing an operating loss for the 2Q.

It appears that the $2 water charge is backfiring on them.

I wonder how Southwest, the largest domestic carrier in US, performed in the 2Q.


User currently onlineMaverickM11 From United States of America, joined Apr 2000, 17511 posts, RR: 45
Reply 16, posted (6 years ago) and read 4336 times:



Quoting Hohd (Reply 15):
I wonder how Southwest, the largest domestic carrier in US, performed in the 2Q.

They lost $390M ex items and benefits from fuel Smile



E pur si muove -Galileo
User currently offlineWukka From United States of America, joined Jan 2005, 1017 posts, RR: 16
Reply 17, posted (6 years ago) and read 4292 times:



Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 16):
They lost $390M ex items and benefits from fuel Smile

Not quite sure why you would cap that sentence with a smiley? I'm confused.



We can agree to disagree.
User currently offlineMasseyBrown From United States of America, joined Dec 2002, 5438 posts, RR: 7
Reply 18, posted (5 years 12 months 4 days 23 hours ago) and read 4230 times:



Quoting Hohd (Reply 15):
According to the information posted, US airways is showing an operating loss for the 2Q.

So did DL.

Per DL's 10-Q, DL showed an operating loss of $1.087 billion for Q2. By removing the one-time impairment charges of $1.196 billion in this loss, WorldTraveler is able to claim an "operating" profit. It's worth noting that DL just used the word profit, not operating profit in their artful press release.

Per US's 10-Q, US showed an operating loss of $536 million for Q2. By removing the one-time impairment charges of $622 million, US would be able to claim a profit on the exact same basis as DL's claim. However US, which uses very conservative accounting [see how they treated their fuel hedges], never made such a claim.

Quoting Hohd (Reply 15):
I wonder how Southwest, the largest domestic carrier in US, performed in the 2Q.

WorldTraveler excludes WN from his comparison by limiting his consideration to "network" carriers.



I love long German words like 'Freundschaftsbezeigungen'.
User currently offlineWorldTraveler From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 19, posted (5 years 12 months 4 days 23 hours ago) and read 4094 times:

I used the same verbiage DL did - and which they submitted to the SEC as part of their required filings.

DL has reported an operating profit in the 2nd quarter and will for the 3rd quarter as well.

I know it frosts you that DL is doing as well as I predicted but they are the ones that are tapping new int'l markets like Africa that no one else has bothered with - and which are allowing DL to insulate itself from softness in the typical western Europe markets. DL is challenging other carriers in established markets like NYC-S. America where DL is on the verge of serving more markets than either long established NYC-Latin carriers like AA and CO and DL is pushing that pioneering spirit out to LAX where no one has bothered to develop and retain LAX-S. America service. And DL is on the verge of a merger that will bring the experience and breadth of the NW Pacific network into the DL fold and will extend that to new markets that no US carrier will serve because they haven't expressed an interest in the 777LR.

I have alot of reason to have very sound and valid optimism in DL... I had it 3 years ago when everyone else thought DL was a goner. DL is reaping the fruits of its well thought out and executed turnaround. And I am very pleased to say that I expected they would do this long ago.


User currently offlineCODC10 From United States of America, joined Jul 2000, 2412 posts, RR: 6
Reply 20, posted (5 years 12 months 4 days 22 hours ago) and read 3951 times:

Ugh... here we go again.

What verge are you talking about? Last time I checked, DL had cut a number of Latin Ameican destinations from JFK that CO continues to serve nonstop from EWR. Have you simply narrowed your focus to South America? Using such regionalizing logic, the complete lack of DL/NW service to Asia ex-JFK (disregard TLV) is perhaps a more glaring weakness.


User currently onlineMaverickM11 From United States of America, joined Apr 2000, 17511 posts, RR: 45
Reply 21, posted (5 years 12 months 4 days 22 hours ago) and read 3902 times:



Quoting WorldTraveler (Reply 19):
will for the 3rd quarter as well.

Ed Bastian stated they'll be breakeven to a slight loss

Quoting WorldTraveler (Reply 19):
DL is pushing that pioneering spirit out to LAX where no one has bothered to develop and retain LAX-S. America service

Oh here we go Yeah sure. Why don't you wait for DL to actually serve LAX-S. America consistently before marking it in the win column?



E pur si muove -Galileo
User currently offlineMasseyBrown From United States of America, joined Dec 2002, 5438 posts, RR: 7
Reply 22, posted (5 years 12 months 4 days 21 hours ago) and read 3693 times:



Quoting WorldTraveler (Reply 19):
I know it frosts you that DL is doing as well as I predicted

My interest is accuracy. I merely point out YOUR error, not DL's. US has as much justification to claim what you erroneously call an "operating profit" as DL.

Delta itself makes no such claim; their statement from their 6-18-08 8-K "Delta expects a profitable June quarter excluding special items1."

Delta from their 10-Q "We reported an operating loss of $1.1 billion and operating income of $490 million for the June 2008 and 2007 quarters, respectively. Operating margin, which is the ratio of operating (loss) income to operating revenues, was (20%) and 10% for the June 2008 and 2007 quarters, respectively."

Neither statement claims an operating profit. The best statement they could have honestly made was "we had positive EBITDAR," not an operating profit.

In these terrible times for airlines, DL is doing relatively well, but only relatively. Even to be doing relatively well, however, says the management is doing an excellent job; they don't need your unfounded exaggerations to make them look good.



I love long German words like 'Freundschaftsbezeigungen'.
User currently offlineYellowtail From United States of America, joined Jun 2005, 6180 posts, RR: 2
Reply 23, posted (5 years 12 months 4 days 21 hours ago) and read 3684 times:



Quoting WorldTraveler (Reply 10):

and a reminder that DL was the only US network carrier that produced an operating profit on a system mainline basis for 2Q08.

And chime the cheerleaders....

Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 21):
Oh here we go . Why don't you wait for DL to actually serve LAX-S. America consistently before marking it in the win column?


 checkmark 



When in doubt, hold on to your altitude. No-one has ever collided with the sky.
User currently offlinePanamair From United States of America, joined Oct 2001, 4910 posts, RR: 24
Reply 24, posted (5 years 12 months 4 days 21 hours ago) and read 3524 times:
Support Airliners.net - become a First Class Member!



Quoting MasseyBrown (Reply 18):
Per US's 10-Q, US showed an operating loss of $536 million for Q2. By removing the one-time impairment charges of $622 million, US would be able to claim a profit on the exact same basis as DL's claim. However US, which uses very conservative accounting [see how they treated their fuel hedges], never made such a claim.

Not really. You need to look closely at the US detailed income statement. They reported an operating loss of $536m, but excluding special items of $466 million (not $622m), they still reported a net loss of $101 million, or $70 million Operating LOSS.

http://www.usairways.com/awa/content...outus/pressroom/pressreleases.aspx

Here are the facts:
Total revenues: $3.257 billion
Total expenses: $3.793 billion
Of these $3.793 billion in expenses, you have the special charges:
- Goodwill impairment $622m
- Special items $34m
They also included both Realized and UNrealized hedging gains:

- Realized gains from fuel hedging: $192m (which would be -$192m in the Exp column)
- Unrealized gains from fuel hedging: $190m (which would be -$190m in the Exp column)

They reported a Net Loss excluding specials of $101m (i.e., stripping out $622m, $34m as well as the positive impact of UNrealized fuel hedging gains of $190m). Your simple stripping out of the $622m goodwill impairment charge gives them credit for both realized and unrealized fuel hedging gains, which I don't believe DL has in their financials either.

Other expenses (interest income/expenses) for US was $31m. Deducting that from the $101m Net Loss (excluding specials and unrealized hedging gains), you get the operating loss number of $70m.


25 MasseyBrown : There was a fairly elaborate discussion of that point (the appropriateness of applying mark to market to hedges) during the US earnings conference. U
26 Post contains links WorldTraveler : because DL has cut NOTHING from JFK to S. America. Central America is not S. America. no he did not. guidance is contained in this SEC filing from la
27 Briguyinhou : So do these numbers mean Delta looses money on its international system?
28 LawnDart : So, why not provide the system numbers? System Operating Profit - Loss / ASM (cents), 2Q08: AA: -3.21 CO: -0.30 DL: 0.49 NW: 1.12 UA: -0.63 US: -2.77
29 MaverickM11 : At the Calyon airline conference this past week Bastian said the third quarter will be "break even towards a modest loss."
30 MaverickM11 : That wouldn't be because until recently they only served one destination in S. America, now would it?
31 Jetlanta : LOL, I can't believe that this has to be explained again. Every carrier allocates revenues a bit differently. Delta has a higher percentage of flow t
32 MasseyBrown : It's an exact quote from DL's 10-Q for the second quarter of 2008, third paragraph on page 26. If by "a long time" you mean three months you would be
Top Of Page
Forum Index

This topic is archived and can not be replied to any more.

Printer friendly format

Similar topics:More similar topics...
US Carriers Intl Route Profitability 04Q07 posted Sun May 11 2008 10:45:31 by LAXintl
US Carriers Intl Route Profitability 3Q2007 posted Fri Feb 15 2008 13:45:37 by LAXintl
US Carriers International Route Profitability posted Wed Sep 26 2007 19:08:58 by Laxintl
US Carrier's International Route AUthorities posted Fri Mar 2 2001 04:56:03 by Redraider
Domestic Vs Intl Size At Largest US Carrier Hubs posted Thu Dec 20 2007 13:35:04 by WorldTraveler
New US Based Intl LCC Carrier! posted Fri Jan 28 2005 00:21:47 by Aa777flyer
US Carrier To Benefit Most With Cuba posted Wed Jan 9 2008 08:09:26 by BP1
Dallas To Announce New Major Intl Route On 27JUN07 posted Tue Jun 26 2007 00:18:05 by Jimyvr
US Airways China Route/Aircraft Update posted Thu Jun 14 2007 19:07:15 by Iadguy73
NWA only US Carrier with Cargo Division? posted Sat Jun 9 2007 23:20:41 by DL767captain