WILCO737 From Greenland, joined exactly 9 years ago today! , 8540 posts, RR: 78 Reply 3, posted (4 years 8 months 3 weeks 3 days 1 hour ago) and read 15761 times:
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Quoting Adicool (Reply 2): What will this mean for Air Dolomiti and their planned operations ex Milan?
Air Dolomiti is already close to LH, so this will be added maybe? Air Dolomiti as feeder for AZ long hauls?
BALHRWWCC From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR: Reply 5, posted (4 years 8 months 3 weeks 3 days 1 hour ago) and read 15647 times:
Now with all these takeovers and buying into companies (Especially the new AZ) I can't help but think the EU will start looking at what is becoming LH's european dominance and judge it as anti competitive? Especially with SK and BD being rumoured to be on there shopping list.
If LH are not careful and do go ahead with a bid for SK or BD. The EU competition commision will very probably rule LH have to give up some of there slots from there EU airports. This would mean the new LH group incorperating say LX/AZ/SN/BD and SK would probably be ordered to hand over slots at FRA/ZRH/OSL/ARN/BRU/MIL and LHR
Ota1 From Germany, joined Apr 2008, 394 posts, RR: 0 Reply 7, posted (4 years 8 months 3 weeks 3 days 1 hour ago) and read 15612 times:
Italian media (ANSA, AGI, etc.) still say the foreign partner will be AF or LH... I think the article is just misleading... maybe they made a mistake when translating their source... I don't think that's for real - at least not yet.
Janmnastami From Italy, joined Apr 2008, 824 posts, RR: 0 Reply 8, posted (4 years 8 months 3 weeks 3 days 1 hour ago) and read 15554 times:
It's only a press rumour, the only sure thing is that AF-KLM and LH are interested in CAI. AF-KLM is interested in a small stake (15-20%), while LH would prefer a bigger stake.
You should also remember that LH will begin to build a network from MXP this year regardless of AZ (CDG 4 daily, LHR, BCN, etc.) and that some sources say that LH will go long-haul from MXP in 3-4 years.
Eyeonthesky17 From United States of America, joined Jun 2005, 95 posts, RR: 0 Reply 9, posted (4 years 8 months 3 weeks 3 days 1 hour ago) and read 15481 times:
Quoting Columba (Reply 6): Lufthansa 100 % owner of :
Air Dolimiti
Swiss
LH Cityline
LH Cargo
Eurowings
19-49 % owner of:
Jetblue
SN Brussels
Alitalia
What is next......... OS ? AB ? IB ? SAS ? BMI ?
BD is just a formality... That one is in the bag already with funds already having been put aside.
UAL777UK From United Kingdom, joined Nov 2005, 3355 posts, RR: 1 Reply 10, posted (4 years 8 months 3 weeks 3 days 1 hour ago) and read 15468 times:
With everything that has happened with AZ, whilst I hope LH do take an significant stake in AZ I will only beleive this once we see soome official statement. THis time last week AZ was dead and buried, this week we are talking about which one of two major airlines is going to effectively bail AZ out. You could not make this up if you tried.
Being selfish, I hope LH succeeds and AZ comes over to the *A.
Airbazar From United States of America, joined Sep 2003, 6955 posts, RR: 7 Reply 12, posted (4 years 8 months 3 weeks 3 days ago) and read 15324 times:
Quoting BALHRWWCC (Reply 5): Now with all these takeovers and buying into companies (Especially the new AZ) I can't help but think the EU will start looking at what is becoming LH's european dominance and judge it as anti competitive?
ZRH From Switzerland, joined Nov 1999, 5544 posts, RR: 40 Reply 13, posted (4 years 8 months 3 weeks 3 days ago) and read 15260 times:
When you read this article then you see that it is only a rumor, it says: "Il Messagero writes in its Monday edition - under reference to government sources - that Wolfgang Mayrhuber made an accordant promise during the weekend. LH did not make any comment so far".
I for myself don't believe it though.
The only sure thing is that last week Mayrhuber was in Rome, he met with the unions leaders and with the Secretary of the President of Council Letta. The unions leaders said that Mayrhuber told them that LH is really interested in the new AZ and that LH would prefer to take a big stake.
UAL777UK From United Kingdom, joined Nov 2005, 3355 posts, RR: 1 Reply 18, posted (4 years 8 months 3 weeks 3 days ago) and read 14975 times:
Quoting Airbazar (Reply 12): AF/KL is still the largest airline in Europe.
I guess it depends which way you want to translate this, not that biggest in any way means the best of course.
When you put all the revenues together from LH and the stakes it has/will aquire with SN and possibly AZ, surely you will agree that grouping is a bigger "airline" in Europe, or do you simply mean airlines in which LH has total control?
Quoting Adicool (Reply 11): BD can be considered as a done deal. LH would be crazy to not acquire the remaining stake.
Lambert747 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR: Reply 19, posted (4 years 8 months 3 weeks 3 days ago) and read 14969 times:
Quoting Caspritz78 (Reply 16): What major airlines? Jetblue? SN Brussels? So far no LH deal come close to the AF/KLM merger.
Sad thing is that the AF-KL merger has killed the service and quality that many of us once were very loyal to KL for. Everyone likes to talk about and brag about how great AF-KL is. To many including myself the merger killed some of the loyalist KL following, and sent many people such as myself into the arms of LH.
Quoting Janmnastami (Reply 15): The only sure thing is that last week Mayrhuber was in Rome, he met with the unions leaders and with the Secretary of the President of Council Letta. The unions leaders said that Mayrhuber told them that LH is really interested in the new AZ and that LH would prefer to take a big stake
The more control that LH has over AZ the better, rather than the small AF-KL buy in of 15-20% the LH buy in of nearly 49% will insure stability and a true investment in the AZ product and the overall Italian nation as a whole.
Quoting Airbazar (Reply 12): AF/KL is still the largest airline in Europe.
They may be large in Europe, yet they are near 35% smaller in Italy than LH.
Quoting Adicool (Reply 11): BD can be considered as a done deal. LH would be crazy to not acquire the remaining stake
Wasnt there some talk a while back about Branson throwing some sort of hissy fit over the fact that the BD-LH deal was near sealed up?
Quoting Janmnastami (Reply 8): You should also remember that LH will begin to build a network from MXP this year regardless of AZ (CDG 4 daily, LHR, BCN, etc.) and that some sources say that LH will go long-haul from MXP in 3-4 years.
LH is not only expanding on their accliamed service, they are expanding on the service renowned in Italy known as Air Dolomiti. EN has a great following and a more than healthy reputation for both quality service and efficiency. Both are things that AZ has not had for a good many years. Under AF-KL I feel that AZ will further decline the way in which AF has allowed the once superior KL service to falter and become a shadow of its former self.
Hardiwv From Brazil, joined Oct 2004, 8780 posts, RR: 51 Reply 21, posted (4 years 8 months 3 weeks 3 days ago) and read 14900 times:
Quoting UAL777UK (Reply 18): I guess it depends which way you want to translate this, not that biggest in any way means the best of course.
When you put all the revenues together from LH and the stakes it has/will aquire with SN and possibly AZ, surely you will agree that grouping is a bigger "airline" in Europe, or do you simply mean airlines in which LH has total control?
Quoting Caspritz78 (Reply 16): What major airlines? Jetblue? SN Brussels?
Janmnastami From Italy, joined Apr 2008, 824 posts, RR: 0 Reply 22, posted (4 years 8 months 3 weeks 3 days ago) and read 14825 times:
Quoting Lambert747 (Reply 19): The more control that LH has over AZ the better, rather than the small AF-KL buy in of 15-20% the LH buy in of nearly 49% will insure stability and a true investment in the AZ product and the overall Italian nation as a whole.
I agree, AZ needs a strong partner, LH can help AZ to renovate its product and its strategy and Miles&More customers (many people in Northern Italy) will be very happy, but there are some political problems with a so strong stake (Berlusconi said that a foreign carrier will have only a minority stake, about 10-20%).
Lambert747 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR: Reply 23, posted (4 years 8 months 3 weeks 2 days 23 hours ago) and read 14805 times:
Quoting Janmnastami (Reply 22): its strategy and Miles&More customers (many people in Northern Italy) will be very happy, but there are some political problems with a so strong stake (Berlusconi said that a foreign carrier will have only a minority stake, about 10-20%).
Berlusconi...
Italy needs a sound investor for AZ, not AF-KL who only want a small stake in the airline and in the end can pull out much easier than LH who is hunting for a 49% stake in the airline. It is in the best interest of the Italian nation as a whole to seek the LH stake over the AF stake. However, even if AZ ends up with a small 10-20% stake by AF-KL, LH will still move forward and end up dominating the MXP market with both service, reputation, and efficiency.
Airbazar From United States of America, joined Sep 2003, 6955 posts, RR: 7 Reply 24, posted (4 years 8 months 3 weeks 2 days 23 hours ago) and read 14785 times:
Quoting Hardiwv (Reply 17): I consider AZ a major airline. And watch out, TAP could be the next target!
Neither are major carriers, at least to me. In my opinion there are only 3 major carriers in Europe: BA, LH, AF/KL. I consider the likes of Iberia, Finnair, TAP, Alitalia, Virgin, etc, to be second tier carriers. They each serve their own niche market but neither are large global players. IB could be argued that it is a major carrier simply because they are so big in the Latin American market, but by the same token, their presence in Africa, Asia, and N.american is almost insignificant.
25 HBDAN: What's the relation/partecipation LH holds in AirOne? HBDAN
26 Joost: 0% AirOne is a codesharing partner of LH and they participate in Miles & More (just like OS, LO, JP and OU), but there is no participation of LH in A
27 Lambert747: You are tossing VS into the same category as IB, AZ, and TP? Take a look at how many markets VS(30) serves and take a look at how many markets IB(115
28 UAL777UK: Hmm, I think your definition of major carriers differs from mine and possibly a lot of other people as well. All the above that you have named have s
29 Bongodog1964: Do you seriously think that LH or any other highly successful airline, can ever inject stability into AZ ? The chances are, even after this latest he
30 Kaitak: I'm sure that LH has considered this and it is a really big issue; what happened to persuade CAI to come back to the table and LH to come on board is
31 Abrelosojos: = It is in the best interest of the "Italian nation as a whole" to let go and let the market decide what is the best price for AZ and how to best mee
32 Beaucaire: Sorry- automatic translation from Italian into English-but the core of the message is clear... Roma, Sept. 29 -''For the tourism revival of a national
33 Janmnastami: CAI will buy ALL AP and some assets of AZ (part of the fleet, part of the workers, not the debt). Michela Vittoria Brambilla in a TV national politic
34 Airbazar: Yes, insignificant because it's a tiny percentage of their total business. Even TP serves more destinations in Africa than Iberia does. Does that mak
35 Lambert747: Bigger is not always better, which you seem to buy into the bigger is better theory. That may be fine but when you look at the colossal issues and pr
36 Teme82: So AZ goes to Starr and LH will drop it's bid on SK since the EC anti competition council will has it's say about that.
37 Beaucaire: If the AZ deal goes through,I assume Austrian Airlines and SAS would be rather off limits due to Brussels concerns.BMI ,on the other hand,should be OK
38 FlyDreamliner: So if/when LH gets TP, AZ, and SN (and hell, maybe SK?), they will be what, the largest airline in Europe with a tremendously wide and robust network
39 797: I was shocked to see this thread! I really hope this confirms. I've always been in favor of LH to become a bidder in AZ's affairs. LH is by far the be
40 YULWinterSkies: Therefore Alitalia will do, and the unions will decide against. Helping to fail something that is prone to failure. Which after all, would not be so
41 CYatUK: Good move for LH. I just hope they are carefull with their investments and don't take big risks because we all know the situation that banks found the
42 Airbazar: I fully agree that bigger is not better and no I don't buy into the that theory. But we're not debating quality here. I never said this airline was b
43 BOStonsox: Does anyone have the stats for market share in the EU? I wonder how much of a share each airline currently has and what the largest share allowed by t
44 Avek00: No valid antitrust regulator regulates by market share in and of itself. Sheer size alone does NOT create insurmountable anticompetitive concerns.
45 Bwvilla: How about Germanwings, or do you count that as part of Eurowings? (Germanwings is 100% owned by Eurowings). Also I think LH only owns 49% of Eurowing
46 GermanInItaly: As i have said, even if i am German, i live in Italy since 1991 and i work at the Ministry of Infrastructures. that is why i followed directly the who
47 ZRH: I do not see the interest of LH to have only a minor stake in this company which I still doubt that it it will work in the planned way. There are sti
48 GermanInItaly: Excellent remark, but wrong. As i have said many times, what it is written in the newspapers or media in general does not correspond to reality. As f
49 Gisors: Yep. Must be the reason why: - KL is the only big company currently winning additional market shares, - KL is still a major international actor, #4 i
50 UAL777UK: Hey come on, thats way off the mark, AZ has more strikes than a Baseball team in a season!!
51 GermanInItaly: Yeah right.. while Air France.. http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/7065944.stm http://www.forbes.com/markets/feeds/afx/2007/10/28/afx4270442.html http
52 Gisors: I also hope that AF-KL is not going to make that mistake... - Too many conflicts of interest within CAI (Mr Benetton, one of the main shareholders, a
53 Beaucaire: Not to enter a political argument but AF was saved from bancrupcy in the late 90's with several Billion of FF of tax-money. The centralistic set up of
54 Glareskin: Maybe LH wants just a controlling share in the negotiations. AP seems like a partner already. Don't see LH putting money in AZ.
55 Gisors: If you ignored it, you will be delighted to learn that Ryanair serves more destinations in France than in any other country. If you have any other in
56 GermanInItaly: Wrong. Ryanair serves 24 destinations in Italy and 23 in France. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ryanair_destinations Ryanair has 28 bases in Europe (Al
57 Joost: Both wrong. How difficult can it be to read a list? Italy's top airports by pax numbers 2007: 1 FCO 32,9M 2 MXP 23.8M 3 LIN 9.9M 4 VCE 7.1M 5 CTA 6.1
58 EIRules: I read somewhere recently that LH had an interest in buying (or part buying) EI. I know that FR owns somewhere in the region of 25% of EI but I'd much
59 ZRH: Me neither. I think the better policy of LH to get a share of the Italian market is to increase their flights out of MXP by Air Dolomiti and SWISS (f
60 Lambert747: Wrong !!!!!! As has been stated before 24 Italy and 23 France Wrong !!!!!! Ever heard of a place called Manchester? Wrong !!!!!! You are stereotyping
61 Banjo76: This thread is turning into a cheerleading session for LH or AF. The general impression here is that the majority prefers LH to take a stake (big or n
62 Gisors: - Indeed, there are now more Ryanair destinations in Italy than in France (one). Thanks for the update. Very big deal. You mean, Lancashire is just a
63 Banjo76: Put myself on that list too. I don't like the way the whole affair has been handled, but that's another story. By the way, ENAC is a politically cont
64 GermanInItaly: Not now, but since ever. Yeah.. right.. http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/7065944.stm http://www.cbc.ca/world/story/2003/05/13/france_strike030513.ht
65 Beaucaire: Cyril Spinetta went to Rome today to meet the CAI chairman and discussed the proposal from Air France based on the latest acceptance by the trade unio
66 Bongodog1964: Obviously if AF or LH take a stake in AZ, there would be no place for BA. BA however it would appear would like a link up with AZ without having to i
67 GermanInItaly: We must be clear about one thing. The new Alitalia doesn't need a partner for money. The financial investment of CAI is more than enough. CAI needs o
68 Bongodog1964: Today the new AZ doesn't need money; IMO however its just a matter of time. Bailing out lame ducks is rarely successful. The Unions just keep tighten
69 Gisors: The Italian authorities are courting at the same time the Big Three, papers are leaking informations about alleged talks with AF, LH and BA. This is
70 Beaucaire: Ryanair should stop calling people stupid... On one side they file lawsuits against state-interventions into legacy carriers,but simultaneously they a
71 Joost: Other point of view on the same subject: Other carriers have challenged Ryanair in court for unlawful state-aid (Charleroi-case) and Ryanair have bee
72 Airlittoralguy: And in France the following airports all have regular intercontinental flights : CDG ORY NCE LYS MRS TLS BOD MLH BSL EAP NTE
74 Lambert747: Sorry, let me clarify the Italian airports of: MXP - Asia, South America, Latin America, Africa, Middle East, Caribbean, North America http://en.wiki
75 Viscount724: However, I think you will agree that if you take a longer-term view than just the past year, France must win some kind of award in Europe (probably a
76 AndyDTWnwa7: I wont believe it until i see it considering AZ is a Skyteam member and LH is in Star Alliance
77 Lambert747: Aliiances can change.. Continental Airlines comes to mind.. Austrian comes to mind.. TAP comes to mind.. TAM comes to mind..
78 Beaucaire: http://www.iht.com/articles/2008/10/02/business/deal.php sums up the mood pretty accurately..
79 Janmnastami: AZ is a SkyTeam member, but AZ is in liquidation. CAI is a different company.
80 Joost: Please help me... to what alliance did TAM ever belong? For Austrian and TAP, I suppose you refer to Qualiflier? If my memory serves me right, the fi
81 Kiwiandrew: LX decision to not proceed with OW was taken several months before the purchase by LH - it had nothing to do with LH and everything to do with BA
82 Janmnastami: According to some details of the plan of Intesa-SanPaolo for AZ, published today on the Italian newspaper "Il Sole 24 ORE", the RPKs of the routes fro
83 Lambert747: TAM jumped ship from being in bed with AA to being in bed with UA..
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