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Post-merger DL And Skyteam US-Asia Routes  
User currently offlineCentrair From Japan, joined Jan 2005, 3598 posts, RR: 20
Posted (6 years 1 month 3 weeks 5 days 23 hours ago) and read 6505 times:

This was spurred on by the NW compensation thread. I made some statements about KE and DL and how they will work in the post merger.

I made a simple map of non-stop flights between Asia and the US on KE, DL/NW and CZ. (CI is looking to join and will be added once they are a full member.)

How will this be expanded?
Also remember that KE will get the 787. Where would they use it to the US?

http://homepage.mac.com/justinwdart/.Pictures/Deltaskyteam/MergeDLskyteam.jpg

NOTE:
I didn't add 5th freedom flights as I would also have to include all of CZ's and KE's Inter-Asia routes.
KE has 47 destinations in Asia (Oceania excluded)
CZ has 20+ destinations in Asia

This is TRANS-PAC not just Asia which would include DXB.

[Edited 2008-10-02 17:56:19]


Yes...I am not a KIX fan. Let's Japanese Aviation!
59 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineDaufuskieGuy From United States of America, joined Sep 2008, 44 posts, RR: 0
Reply 1, posted (6 years 1 month 3 weeks 5 days 23 hours ago) and read 6486 times:

what about HKG? is there any non stop SKY service? DTW I think? need to add JFK and ATL. Also need to add JFK NRT, even if it comes of the expense of another route like PDX or MSP or SEA or SFO.

User currently offlineCentrair From Japan, joined Jan 2005, 3598 posts, RR: 20
Reply 2, posted (6 years 1 month 3 weeks 5 days 23 hours ago) and read 6432 times:



Quoting DaufuskieGuy (Reply 1):
what about HKG? is there any non stop SKY service? DTW I think? need to add JFK and ATL. Also need to add JFK NRT

HKG will happen but right now US to HKG on Skyteam is Via NRT or ICN. I think DTW would be the more effective simply for its position and for rotation. The flight number though could start at ATL.

Also I think we will see DTW-ICN, maybe MSP-ICN and KE has had interest in BOS.

CZ had mentioned an interest in DTW.



Yes...I am not a KIX fan. Let's Japanese Aviation!
User currently offlineAznMadSci From United States of America, joined Dec 2007, 3699 posts, RR: 6
Reply 3, posted (6 years 1 month 3 weeks 5 days 23 hours ago) and read 6434 times:



Quoting DaufuskieGuy (Reply 1):
what about HKG? is there any non stop SKY service? DTW I think? need to add JFK and ATL. Also need to add JFK NRT, even if it comes of the expense of another route like PDX or MSP or SEA or SFO.

HKG is served by NW via NRT, but no nonstop to US with a Skyteam partner.

JFK-NRT is not confirmed but many a.netters speculate it should soon post-merger.

Other than SEA-PEK, which is confirmed but hasn't been started, all flights are currently flown by Skyteam partners, minus those flown by CO.



The journey of life is not based on the accomplishments, but the experience.
User currently offlineCentrair From Japan, joined Jan 2005, 3598 posts, RR: 20
Reply 4, posted (6 years 1 month 3 weeks 5 days 23 hours ago) and read 6407 times:



Quoting AznMadSci (Reply 3):
JFK-NRT is not confirmed but many a.netters speculate it should soon post-merger.

This was stated by NW as one route they would like to re-start after acquisition of the 787. DL also rand the route and has been interested in re-starting it. JFK-NRT is one of the higher if not the highest yield routes between Japan and the US yet it is only served by JL, NH and AA at this point. At another point in history it was served by DL, NW, AA, UA, JL and NH.



Yes...I am not a KIX fan. Let's Japanese Aviation!
User currently offlineAA388 From Puerto Rico, joined Sep 2007, 305 posts, RR: 0
Reply 5, posted (6 years 1 month 3 weeks 5 days 23 hours ago) and read 6387 times:

Isnt CO still a skyteam partner?? If so the their EWR-HKG would count as non stop to the us.


-max



Flown on A319, A320, A321, A330-200, A340-300, 737-3,5,7,8, 747-400, 757-2,3, 767-300, 777-200
User currently offlineDeltaL1011man From United States of America, joined Sep 2005, 9672 posts, RR: 14
Reply 6, posted (6 years 1 month 3 weeks 5 days 23 hours ago) and read 6382 times:



Quoting Centrair (Reply 4):
JFK-NRT is one of the higher if not the highest yield routes between Japan and the US yet it is only served by JL, NH and AA at this point.

And CO via EWR.

I think we will see a DL/KE JV to add to the ATI they have.
ATL-HKG will happen but some other routes need to be started first plus some 77Ls will need to go to 77E routes. I wouldn't rule SEA-HKG on DL out with a 77E/L post merger.



yep.
User currently offlineUSPIT10L From United States of America, joined Mar 2006, 3295 posts, RR: 7
Reply 7, posted (6 years 1 month 3 weeks 5 days 21 hours ago) and read 6263 times:



Quoting AA388 (Reply 5):
Isnt CO still a skyteam partner?? If so the their EWR-HKG would count as non stop to the us.

Once the merger is completed, CO will leave SkyTeam and head to Star Alliance.



It's a Great Day for Hockey!
User currently offlineNASCARAirforce From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 3184 posts, RR: 4
Reply 8, posted (6 years 1 month 3 weeks 5 days 20 hours ago) and read 6220 times:



Quoting Centrair (Reply 2):
CZ had mentioned an interest in DTW.

Before the delay of the 787s, CZ was supposed to start service to DTW in 2009 or 2010.


User currently offlineCentrair From Japan, joined Jan 2005, 3598 posts, RR: 20
Reply 9, posted (6 years 1 month 3 weeks 5 days 20 hours ago) and read 6217 times:

Concerning CO and the table above.

I excluded CO specifically because they are leaving Skyteam. Otherwise the above chart would include (for 2009):
EWR-NRT
EWR-PVG
EWR-PEK
EWR-HKG
IAH-NRT
(I would not include CO/CS operations as most are GUM-Japan which I would consider inter-Asia. But HNL-GUM could count.)

[Edited 2008-10-02 20:47:20]


Yes...I am not a KIX fan. Let's Japanese Aviation!
User currently offlineDLlaxPride From United States of America, joined Oct 2008, 17 posts, RR: 0
Reply 10, posted (6 years 1 month 3 weeks 5 days 18 hours ago) and read 6101 times:

DL is also very interested in SYD probably out of LAX.

User currently offlineCentrair From Japan, joined Jan 2005, 3598 posts, RR: 20
Reply 11, posted (6 years 1 month 3 weeks 5 days 17 hours ago) and read 6058 times:

The thing to think about is how many truly viable nonstop Trans-pac routes will be viable and profitable.

How will aircraft be used?
What could get added as a 5th freedom through Japan if some go non-stop?
Example:
DL keeps SEA-NRT
DL drops NRT-ICN
NRT-ICN traffic is put on KE
Problem KE's last flight to ICN is at 18:05 which is too tight for some of NW's currently scheduled arrivals into NRT.

But by dropping this one 5th freedom, they could add a new destination or restart a previously dropped destination.

Quoting DLlaxPride (Reply 10):
DL is also very interested in SYD probably out of LAX.

This is a definite possibility especially with the flight number originating in ATL. But I wonder if DL would have rebuild certain aspects of its LAX international hub to make sure that they can be effective?
Post merger DL/Skyteam LAX international:
LAX-NRT
LAX-ICN
LAX-MEXICO (4 or 5 destinations on AM)



Yes...I am not a KIX fan. Let's Japanese Aviation!
User currently offlineTimf From United States of America, joined Mar 2003, 971 posts, RR: 1
Reply 12, posted (6 years 1 month 3 weeks 5 days 10 hours ago) and read 5890 times:
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I know CZ had announced plans to start PEK-DTW around the same time NW is starting DTW-PVG, but this was supposed to be with a 787 and given the delays with the program I'm not sure if they still plan on starting this as scheduled. Do they have another type of aircraft available to serve this route (like NW is doing with the 744) or is it on hold until the 787 is available? I couldn't find any articles related to this route since last December.

User currently offlineUAL777UK From United Kingdom, joined Nov 2005, 3356 posts, RR: 1
Reply 13, posted (6 years 1 month 3 weeks 5 days 10 hours ago) and read 5842 times:



Quoting DLlaxPride (Reply 10):
DL is also very interested in SYD probably out of LAX.

They surely need to ramp up ops at LAX first before they start that route, which clearly has not been happing. They keep promising much in LAX or should I say certain A.Netters do but nothing of great significance has materilised yet.
Also, a partner in Australia would be helpful too.


User currently offlineBobnwa From United States of America, joined Dec 2000, 6517 posts, RR: 9
Reply 14, posted (6 years 1 month 3 weeks 5 days 9 hours ago) and read 5803 times:



Quoting DLlaxPride (Reply 10):
DL is also very interested in SYD probably out of LAX.

While SYD is trans-pacific it is not Asia.


User currently offlineCentrair From Japan, joined Jan 2005, 3598 posts, RR: 20
Reply 15, posted (6 years 1 month 3 weeks 5 days 8 hours ago) and read 5689 times:

If we include Australia and New Zealand, would that be the only place where Skyteam & DL could really expand?

There are large parts of East Asia and South East Asia that either restricted by agreements, distance, or lack of interest. So where can they expand?
Mongolia?
Vietnam?



Yes...I am not a KIX fan. Let's Japanese Aviation!
User currently offlineFlyDreamliner From United States of America, joined Jan 2006, 2759 posts, RR: 15
Reply 16, posted (6 years 1 month 3 weeks 5 days 7 hours ago) and read 5577 times:



Quoting Centrair (Reply 15):
Mongolia?
Vietnam?

Mongolia lacks the traffic from NorAm, and the US-Vietnam bilateral allows for only one carrier from each state to serve the other.

We'll see more NRT non-stops, we'll see HKG flights from at least 2 hub/focus cities, and we may see more connectivity with KE in ICN. I think the NRT will be used for less pass-through and more direct connections to North America, where yields can be higher, and more connecting traffic can be shuttled to KE for destinations not served directly.



"Let the world change you, and you can change the world"
User currently offlineCubsrule From United States of America, joined May 2004, 23222 posts, RR: 20
Reply 17, posted (6 years 1 month 3 weeks 5 days 6 hours ago) and read 5573 times:



Quoting FlyDreamliner (Reply 16):
the US-Vietnam bilateral allows for only one carrier from each state to serve the other.

Incorrect. The bilateral allows 2 US carriers up to 14 weekly flights combined. It's 5th freedom rights that are the hangup; NW could go via HKG (like UA does) or via KIX, but they'd like to go via NRT, and the government of Vietnam doesn't want to permit that.



I can't decide whether I miss the tulip or the bowling shoe more
User currently offlineOA412 From United States of America, joined Dec 2000, 5351 posts, RR: 25
Reply 18, posted (6 years 1 month 3 weeks 5 days 5 hours ago) and read 5502 times:



Quoting Cubsrule (Reply 17):
Incorrect. The bilateral allows 2 US carriers up to 14 weekly flights combined. It's 5th freedom rights that are the hangup; NW could go via HKG (like UA does) or via KIX, but they'd like to go via NRT, and the government of Vietnam doesn't want to permit that.

Hmm, well then if this is correct, I'd assume that DL would probably just tag SGN (or maybe HAN) onto a US-HKG nonstop if/when they start such a route.



Hughes Airwest - Top Banana In The West
User currently offlineCubsrule From United States of America, joined May 2004, 23222 posts, RR: 20
Reply 19, posted (6 years 1 month 3 weeks 5 days 5 hours ago) and read 5463 times:



Quoting OA412 (Reply 18):
I'd assume that DL would probably just tag SGN (or maybe HAN) onto a US-HKG nonstop if/when they start such a route.

My guess is that the government of Vietnam may not act as restrictively once VN is established in the US. We shall see.



I can't decide whether I miss the tulip or the bowling shoe more
User currently offlineDelta763 From United States of America, joined May 2008, 316 posts, RR: 0
Reply 20, posted (6 years 1 month 3 weeks 5 days 5 hours ago) and read 5445 times:



Quoting Centrair (Reply 2):

HKG will happen but right now US to HKG on Skyteam is Via NRT or ICN. I think DTW would be the more effective simply for its position and for rotation. The flight number though could start at ATL.

Also I think we will see DTW-ICN, maybe MSP-ICN and KE has had interest in BOS.

CZ had mentioned an interest in DTW.

With the opening of SEA-PEK, I really like the idea of SEA as a location for DL/NW's new hub to Asia. It's in a prime location for access to market and for connections, and there's a decent O/D market there as well. There's already service to NRT, PEK, and ICN on KE. I could see PVG, HKG and TPE working from there right away, with perhaps MNL, SIN, and BKK being added as more money starts coming in.

It might even make sense as a hopping point to SYD, away from the chaos of LAX.

Strengthening relations with AS would be crucial to making it work. They already have pretty good codeshare agreements, though. This would allow DL to focus on long-haul.

If I was in Seattle I'd be really excited about the possibilities.


User currently offlineLAXdude1023 From India, joined Sep 2006, 7759 posts, RR: 25
Reply 21, posted (6 years 1 month 3 weeks 5 days 4 hours ago) and read 5420 times:



Quoting Delta763 (Reply 20):
away from the chaos of LAX.

While I actually agree with your post, I keep wondering why people think that LAX is so chaotic if youre not changing terminals.

If you dont have to change terminals at LAX, its is perhaps one of the easiest airports to deal with in the world. Its easier than DTW, ATL, MSP, or any other airport. Its when you have to change terminals that LAX becomes a chaos.

That being said, I agree that LAX is not the place for DL to focus its international network. I think SEA is the place for focus DL/NW Asia hub.



Stewed...Lewd...Crude...Irreverent...Belligerent
User currently offlineDelta763 From United States of America, joined May 2008, 316 posts, RR: 0
Reply 22, posted (6 years 1 month 3 weeks 5 days 4 hours ago) and read 5387 times:

I see your point. Thing is, with only two airlines currently serving LAX-SYD, I imagine a pretty big chunk of people flying to SYD via LAX are changing terminals.

User currently offlineLAXdude1023 From India, joined Sep 2006, 7759 posts, RR: 25
Reply 23, posted (6 years 1 month 3 weeks 5 days 3 hours ago) and read 5330 times:



Quoting Delta763 (Reply 22):
I imagine a pretty big chunk of people flying to SYD via LAX are changing terminals.

Actually to SYD, most people dont change terminals. UA (who flies in and out of T7) flies to SYD and most people who connect to their flight come in at T7 as well. QF uses AA's T4 for their flights to SYD. Since AA and QF codeshare, most people dont not have to change terminals to get on this flight. IF DL flew LAX-SYD, it would be more of the same.

Flights to BNE, AKL, and MEL are a different story (since only QF flies those).

I do agree that SEA should be the focus of all this though.



Stewed...Lewd...Crude...Irreverent...Belligerent
User currently offlineBobnwa From United States of America, joined Dec 2000, 6517 posts, RR: 9
Reply 24, posted (6 years 1 month 3 weeks 5 days 3 hours ago) and read 5319 times:



Quoting LAXdude1023 (Reply 21):
If you dont have to change terminals at LAX, its is perhaps one of the easiest airports to deal with in the world. Its easier than DTW, ATL, MSP, or any other airport

I really don't agree with your statement. DTW is very easy to change gates at the NW terminal, probably easier than any other large US airport. I would rank MSP,ATL and then LAX in that order.


25 OA412 : Connecting in SEA is also a more direct routing for most people travelling from the East Coast than either LAX or SFO.
26 LAXdude1023 : The catch phrase is "if you dont have to change terminals." Given that the terminals are smaller (on a per terminal basis) at LAX than any of the oth
27 Atlanta : If post merger SLC is still a hub what about SLC-SYD? Atlanta
28 Bobnwa : I think the total forecast for O&D passengers a day SLC-SYD would be about 2-3 Mormon missionaries a day and non revs who couldn't get on any other f
29 Atlanta : I apologize for not being clear enough however, I ment since the 772LR can't make ATL-SYD non-stop try ATL-SLC-SYD with 772ER. Atlanta
30 LawnDart : How about SLC - NRT?
31 Burnsie28 : They are to begin service with the 787. Actually its very low yielding, thats why NW dropped it, in fact they publically stated that when they did as
32 DeltaL1011man : Plus TPE-NRT on CI and maybe CZ can/will start NRT-PEK/PVG? HKG is likely to stay. ICN will likely go KE. DJ? Well thats what I get for listing to a.
33 LAXdude1023 : No, flight 839 to SYD typically leaves from gate 74 or 77 in T7. Its probably going to be a while for this one. Right now, flights to China are strug
34 DeltaL1011man : I agree. I think we will see India (DEL) and some routes that are to hot for the 77E(DXB) plus some routes out of other hubs. Ok I thought most of UA
35 Lambert747 : Why, Why, and Why? SLC-SYD for what reason, for what purpose? Honestly the argument was bad enough for ATL-SYD. The end verdict in that thread was th
36 RwSEA : I think he was referring to the fact that UA hasn't tried DEN-NRT yet. Given UA's much larger presence in NRT, and that their DEN hub is much larger
37 Lambert747 : SLC-ICN, SLC-NRT I dont think they are viable long term. The runway for starters at SLC is to short for extended long haul service outside of the cur
38 MCOAviationFan : From earlier comments from DL, JFK-NRT is probably the first route coming post merger. With 6 777LR's on the way, there's probably several others, but
39 LawnDart : I wouldn't expect much int'l service from SLC either, but I'll bet NRT is one of them. NRT is only about 400 miles further from SLC than CDG is.
40 Cubsrule : Don't feel too bad. It took me a good chunk of an afternoon to figure that out. ...but it's the wrong direction. SLC-WAW would require less runway th
41 B773A346 : Since we are talking about the Asia Route, lets also discuss BOM and DEL too. Will Delta/Northwest fly - BOM -ATL and BOM-AMS too ? KE flies to ICN, w
42 OA412 : For what it's worth, Glen Hauenstein was quoted in the Salt Lake Tribune a few months back as saying that DL is looking at SLC-NRT for a possible 201
43 DeltaL1011man : I would look for it. ATL and JFK-DEL. ATL first ATL will not be the only place in the US with flights to BOM. (think Northeast)
44 Bobnwa : Are you going to just play mysterious (I've got a secret) or are you going to tell us?
45 RwSEA : Well, when JFK-BOM was moved to ATL, all signs were that the route would come back when new aircraft come online... But speaking of AMS-BOM, I do hop
46 DeltaL1011man : Fine I guess I'll tell. JFK-BOM will be back. JFK-DEL will be added. Deal is though the JFK-India market needs to clam down a bit before DL jumps bac
47 Af773atmsp : I'm hoping to see: MSP-PVG on DL 787 MSP-PEK on CZ or DL 787 MSP-HKG on DL with 787 MSP-KIX on DL with 787 But I don't think all these routes will sta
48 Bobnwa : Which of the above routes do you feel confident would work well financially and why? They don't look like anything I would want to recommend to the D
49 AmtrakGuy : How big or small is DL is at Boston? With upcoming merge, will it be big enough to add ICN? Do you think it's possible KE would be interest using 787
50 MCOAviationFan : Boston is a focus city for Delta. However, there has not been any recent move by DL to further increase their presence in this market. I don't see an
51 AmtrakGuy : True but it's already being served by KE. Since there is no other Skyteam flies to Boston, I wonder if it's possible for KE start BOS because of more
52 MCOAviationFan : I believe DL will start JFK-NRT with a 777ER freed up from an existing route by a 777LR.
53 DeltaL1011man : yes. BOS-NRT might happen with a 787. BOS-ICN might happen with a 787 but not a DL 787. I believe you are right.
54 Af773atmsp : I'm not sure about CZ starting PEK-MSP service but MSP only has one non-stop route to Asia with the one daily 744 (plus two daily on the weekends) an
55 DeltaL1011man : MSP is pretty low on the "list" to get flights to China. ATL-PEK and DTW-PEK are the next two they will try for. LAX-China and SEA-PVG will likely be
56 MAH4546 : Northwest has already publicly announced their desire to fly MSP-China with the 787.
57 Centrair : The thing with BOS was the runway length for the aircraft with the range to reach Asia. With the 787, BOS could become more feasible for non-stop to
58 DeltaL1011man : I know they have but you have got to remember DL will bring LAX,ATL and JFK to the table. Much better chance of making money with those plus SEA and
59 Bobnwa : And you know this how. Your secret buddy in route planning?
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