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No News On Boeing 747-8i -> Good News?  
User currently offlineKeesje From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Posted (5 years 10 months 2 days 9 hours ago) and read 27821 times:

I have heard nothing new around the 747-8i for a long time now. Neither from Boeing or Lufthansa.

That can be a good sign of everything moving smoothly and the press focussing on 787, the strike etc.

On the other hand Boeing usually takes every opportunity to celebrate milestones around new models.



258 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineIkramerica From United States of America, joined May 2005, 21478 posts, RR: 60
Reply 1, posted (5 years 10 months 2 days 8 hours ago) and read 27787 times:

There hasn't been much new from Boeing about anything with the strike.

There was one 748VIP sale last week. The orders keep rolling in…  Wink



Of all the things to worry about... the Wookie has no pants.
User currently offlineJfk777 From United States of America, joined Aug 2006, 8290 posts, RR: 7
Reply 2, posted (5 years 10 months 2 days 8 hours ago) and read 27759 times:
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The news on the 748 is called the 777-300ER, every airline initally saying they would buy 748 has ordered its twin engined cousin.

User currently offlineAA737-823 From United States of America, joined Mar 2000, 5732 posts, RR: 11
Reply 3, posted (5 years 10 months 2 days 1 hour ago) and read 27351 times:



Quoting Jfk777 (Reply 2):
The news on the 748 is called the 777-300ER, every airline initally saying they would buy 748 has ordered its twin engined cousin.

..except in the freight market.
Over 100 747-800s have been sold to date.
I've still got high hopes.


User currently offlineEPA001 From Netherlands, joined Sep 2006, 4705 posts, RR: 38
Reply 4, posted (5 years 10 months 1 day 20 hours ago) and read 27054 times:
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I am afraid that this new beauty will mostly be seen in freighter operations. However since LH will operate them as a passenger airliner, and I am frequently visiting the Frankfurt area for work, I get to see them in their passenger livery.  Smile  Smile  Smile

But the sandwich of the B777-300ER on the one side, and the A380-800 on the other side, is really hurting the chances of (many) more sales for the B747-8i as a passenger airliner. It is a shame, but it is reality!

But as a freighter she is also beautiful, so the next 20 years or so her gracious shape will still lighten up the skies!

Kind regards.

[Edited 2008-10-04 04:37:42]

User currently offlineGorgos From Greece, joined Dec 2007, 232 posts, RR: 0
Reply 5, posted (5 years 10 months 1 day 19 hours ago) and read 26668 times:



Quoting EPA001 (Reply 4):
I am afraid that this new beauty

It is really beautiful, really.

Quoting Jfk777 (Reply 2):
The news on the 748 is called the 777-300ER

 checkmark 

But I dont think its just about the efficiency, but also about the functionality of the available floorspace. Im far from an expert, but the upperdeck seems very tight and not very flexible. Same can not be said about the 777 and 380.

My guesstimation must be that all these strikes also must have an effect on the 748i.


User currently offlineCharles79 From Puerto Rico, joined Mar 2007, 1331 posts, RR: 6
Reply 6, posted (5 years 10 months 1 day 19 hours ago) and read 26396 times:

Just out of curiosity but are there any routes that absolutely cannot be flown with a twin, i.e. where a 3- or 4-holer is required to avoid ETOPS issues? From what I can read, airlines won't order a 748 or an A380 unless they absolutely need the non-ETOPS capability or the extra capacity.

If it comes down to capacity then I agree with the poster that points out to the 77W as a reason for lackluster sales of the 748i; I don't think that the difference in capacity is enough to offset the added expense of a new/additional type with twice the engines.

Regardless of its future I'll make sure that my future travel plans include an LH ticket with FRA at either end of the reservation!


User currently offlineSparklehorse12 From Australia, joined Feb 2007, 884 posts, RR: 1
Reply 7, posted (5 years 10 months 1 day 18 hours ago) and read 26332 times:

I am definitely no expert on 748 however, I can't see the project getting off the ground once A380's get operational and more get into service.....LH...that is an odd choice for them but ya know, stranger things have happened!


Airlines Flown : QF,NW,AA, CX, AC, MH, SQ, DJ, NZ, TG, PG,US, FJ, J8, AN, DD, JQ
User currently offlineOldAeroGuy From United States of America, joined Dec 2004, 3477 posts, RR: 67
Reply 8, posted (5 years 10 months 1 day 18 hours ago) and read 26213 times:



Quoting Charles79 (Reply 6):
Just out of curiosity but are there any routes that absolutely cannot be flown with a twin, i.e. where a 3- or 4-holer is required to avoid ETOPS issues?

The new ETOPS rules that allow diversion times up to 330 min have made nearly all great circle routes available to Twins.

The main exceptions appear to be:

CPT-AKL
CPT-SYD
JNB-AKL



Airplane design is easy, the difficulty is getting them to fly - Barnes Wallis
User currently offlineStitch From United States of America, joined Jul 2005, 30641 posts, RR: 84
Reply 9, posted (5 years 10 months 1 day 18 hours ago) and read 26116 times:
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Well I imagine the strike is helping Boeing with those rumored parts shortages for the first 747-8F, but then it's also pushing back the completion of the last 747-400(ER)F's which need to be completed before Boeing can reconfigure 40-21 and 40-22 for the 747-8.

That Boeing appears to be willing to take at least a 60-day strike now implies they feel their better-off for it in the short and long term. We know Boeing was moving the 747 line to two deliveries a month, so if they can stock parts now, they can probably re-start the line at that rate and maybe even move to 3 a month, which would clear the 744 backlog out 50% faster. They can also stockpile more 747-8 parts so instead of the planned rate (2 a month?) they could start at 2.5 or even 3 a month there, as well, which would minimize the impact on deliveries.


User currently offlineNA From Germany, joined Dec 1999, 10655 posts, RR: 9
Reply 10, posted (5 years 10 months 1 day 18 hours ago) and read 26083 times:

I don´t know why more airlines appreciate the uniqueness of the 747-8I. No other aircraft offers an intimate upper deck cabin, no other the triangular front cabin. Especially this front cabin I learnt to appreciate. Thats a true USP. The A380 can´t offer that, let alone that ugly long twin-engined thing from Seattle that is commercially so successful at the moment.
Whatever, my favorite airline is LH, and through ordering the 748I they have even won more points for me. May others follow.


User currently offlineAstuteman From United Kingdom, joined Jan 2005, 9980 posts, RR: 96
Reply 11, posted (5 years 10 months 1 day 18 hours ago) and read 26020 times:
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Quoting Keesje (Thread starter):
I have heard nothing new around the 747-8i for a long time now

At this stage of development, I don't think it's possible to read a lot into this.

Go and get another packet of popcorn....  Smile

Rgds


User currently offlineRedFlyer From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 4315 posts, RR: 28
Reply 12, posted (5 years 10 months 1 day 18 hours ago) and read 25913 times:



Quoting Ikramerica (Reply 1):
There hasn't been much new from Boeing about anything with the strike.

That is probably the most logical reason for the dearth of news, despite what the tea-leaf readers may divine from their prognostications.

Quoting Charles79 (Reply 6):
From what I can read, airlines won't order a 748 or an A380 unless they absolutely need the non-ETOPS capability or the extra capacity.

As has been pointed out, ETOPS is practically a non-issue anymore. The fact remains that VLA orders from either manufacturer are not burning holes on the books. With the current economic slow-down, I don't think we'll see more than a handful of orders over the next few years until the next orders up-cycle starts again.



I'm not a racist...I hate Biden, too.
User currently offlineER757 From Cayman Islands, joined May 2005, 2500 posts, RR: 7
Reply 13, posted (5 years 10 months 1 day 17 hours ago) and read 25589 times:

No news is not good news. Good news would be an announcement that someone else ordered the thing

User currently offlineTdscanuck From Canada, joined Jan 2006, 12709 posts, RR: 80
Reply 14, posted (5 years 10 months 1 day 17 hours ago) and read 25589 times:



Quoting Charles79 (Reply 6):
Just out of curiosity but are there any routes that absolutely cannot be flown with a twin, i.e. where a 3- or 4-holer is required to avoid ETOPS issues?

There are a few, but the range on the current and future twins is so large that they can usually divert around the "ETOPS hole".

Tom.


User currently offlineSparkingWave From South Korea, joined Jun 2005, 670 posts, RR: 0
Reply 15, posted (5 years 10 months 1 day 16 hours ago) and read 25338 times:

No news is indeed good news on the Boeing 747-8i.

The conspiracy theorist in me is tempted to think that the Boeing strike was actually a planned maneuver by Boeing to buy time to get over its engineering and subcontractor problems.. Boeing can neatly scapegoat the strike while catching up with the 787 and 747-8i lines.  Smile



Flights to the moon and all major space stations. At Pan Am, the sky is no longer the limit!
User currently offlineRheinbote From Germany, joined May 2006, 1968 posts, RR: 52
Reply 16, posted (5 years 10 months 1 day 15 hours ago) and read 24829 times:



Quoting NA (Reply 10):
I don´t know why more airlines appreciate the uniqueness of the 747-8I. No other aircraft offers an intimate upper deck cabin, no other the triangular front cabin. Especially this front cabin I learnt to appreciate. Thats a true USP. The A380 can´t offer that, let alone that ugly long twin-engined thing from Seattle that is commercially so successful at the moment.

The pity is that the 747-8I can't accommodate first class interiors on the upper deck. Airlines have been asking for this, but Boeing so far rejected the idea (due to structural reasons AFAIK)


User currently offlineGlom From United Kingdom, joined Apr 2005, 2815 posts, RR: 10
Reply 17, posted (5 years 10 months 1 day 14 hours ago) and read 24630 times:



Quoting Rheinbote (Reply 16):
The pity is that the 747-8I can't accommodate first class interiors on the upper deck. Airlines have been asking for this, but Boeing so far rejected the idea (due to structural reasons AFAIK)

I thought first class usually goes in the nose and business or premium economy goes on the upper deck.

I did have the joy of flying the upper deck on OA before they went under. It really is nice up there.


User currently offlineAA737-823 From United States of America, joined Mar 2000, 5732 posts, RR: 11
Reply 18, posted (5 years 10 months 1 day 12 hours ago) and read 23845 times:



Quoting Rheinbote (Reply 16):
The pity is that the 747-8I can't accommodate first class interiors on the upper deck.

Uh, Lufthansa's first is up there...


User currently offlineStitch From United States of America, joined Jul 2005, 30641 posts, RR: 84
Reply 19, posted (5 years 10 months 1 day 11 hours ago) and read 23672 times:
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Quoting ER757 (Reply 13):
No news is not good news. Good news would be an announcement that someone else ordered the thing

Another 747-8I VIP was ordered this week.  Silly


User currently offlineA342 From Germany, joined Jul 2005, 4680 posts, RR: 3
Reply 20, posted (5 years 10 months 1 day 11 hours ago) and read 23515 times:



Quoting OldAeroGuy (Reply 8):
The new ETOPS rules that allow diversion times up to 330 min have made nearly all great circle routes available to Twins.

Let's take a deep breath first. At present, only ETOPS207 is approved for certain Boeing 777 flights. Otherwise, it's still 180 minutes.

Quoting AA737-823 (Reply 18):
Uh, Lufthansa's first is up there...

I think he meant more modern stuff such as suites etc.



Exceptions confirm the rule.
User currently offlineOldAeroGuy From United States of America, joined Dec 2004, 3477 posts, RR: 67
Reply 21, posted (5 years 10 months 1 day 10 hours ago) and read 23242 times:

Quoting A342 (Reply 20):
Quoting OldAeroGuy (Reply 8):
The new ETOPS rules that allow diversion times up to 330 min have made nearly all great circle routes available to Twins.


Let's take a deep breath first. At present, only ETOPS207 is approved for certain Boeing 777 flights. Otherwise, it's still 180 minutes.

Incorrect. The FAA have approved rules for ETOPS diversions beyond 240 min. This can mean up to 330 min.

See this link:

http://rgl.faa.gov/Regulatory_and_Gu...46b0057fd06/$FILE/AC%20120-42B.pdf

Look on pages 38 and 39.

Also Appendix 2, pages 7 and 8.

[Edited 2008-10-04 15:09:02]


Airplane design is easy, the difficulty is getting them to fly - Barnes Wallis
User currently offlineA342 From Germany, joined Jul 2005, 4680 posts, RR: 3
Reply 22, posted (5 years 10 months 1 day 10 hours ago) and read 23141 times:



Quoting OldAeroGuy (Reply 21):

Alright, but two things:

Is there any airline that actually goes beyond 207 minutes right now?

And second, the FAA may have approved it, but I'm not aware of other agencies. For example, if LA wanted to fly SCL-AKL with ETOPS240, the Chilean CAA would have to approve it.

Additionally, ETOPS beyond 240 minutes is quite restrictive:

"(3) ETOPS Beyond 240 Minutes. This authority is only granted to operators of two-engine airplanes between specific city pairs. The certificate holder must have been operating at 180 minute or greater ETOPS authority for at least 24-consecutive months, of which at least 12-consecutive months must be at 240-minute ETOPS authority with the airplane-engine combination in the application."



Exceptions confirm the rule.
User currently offlineAlessandro From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 23, posted (5 years 10 months 1 day 9 hours ago) and read 22902 times:

I guess that Boeing is moving over people to 787 line, from the 747 line, so I guess the delays
are coming up big time.


User currently offlineOldAeroGuy From United States of America, joined Dec 2004, 3477 posts, RR: 67
Reply 24, posted (5 years 10 months 1 day 9 hours ago) and read 22827 times:



Quoting A342 (Reply 22):
And second, the FAA may have approved it, but I'm not aware of other agencies. For example, if LA wanted to fly SCL-AKL with ETOPS240, the Chilean CAA would have to approve it.

Australia and New Zealand have adopted similar regs. See this link.

www.faa.gov/news/conferences_events/...edia/WS_32_ETOPS_LROPS_Summary.ppt

If either one of them wanted to apply for sevice to Chile, I suspect that the Chilean authorities would also adopt the appropriate regs.

Quoting A342 (Reply 22):
Is there any airline that actually goes beyond 207 minutes right now?

If an airline needs the capability, the appropriate regs are there. Lack of use doesn't indicate there is no availability.



Airplane design is easy, the difficulty is getting them to fly - Barnes Wallis
25 Keesje : Is there any condition under which Lufthanasa or Boeing could break open the contract? It would not be unprecedented. Boeing broke open the JAL / ANA
26 Par13del : Some mix and mismatch in your examples, Concorde was a one of, the B-764 is a derivitive, so is the B-7478i, guess now we understand Boeing's initial
27 Sxf24 : At this point, from my experience, the supply chain (no risk sharing partners here) is more than willing to support a fleet of 747-8s.
28 Kaitak744 : The idea of the 747-8 not being built is absolutely RIDICULOUS. There are only 4 differences between the passenger version and the freighter version:
29 Post contains images Stitch : Are you still going to bring up this red herring when LH has 20 of them in their fleet? This bird really sticks in your craw, doesn't it? If only LH
30 ER757 : UA used to have first class in both upper and lower deck. I flew ORD/HNL upper deck and HNL/ORD lower deck when I used a FF miles to upgrade once (sa
31 Tdscanuck : Although I agree the differences are often overstated, it's not as simple as you suggest. The fire-x and ventilation systems are quite different. The
32 Astuteman : Tom beat me to it. I agree with your primary assertion. However, the requirement to carry oxygen breathing, screen-watching, fare-paying passengers w
33 Danny : Never heard of a cancellation that would require full payment. Usually you just forfeit your deposit. And even full payment would be nowhere near $2
34 Rheinbote : Yes, and anyway, suites and showers etc. adding tons of empty weight are a slap in the face of mother nature. Some manufacturers and airlines need to
35 Worldrider : Right, Boeing just declared it could not achieve first 787 flight this year if strike carries on.. i wonder if strikers are offered a bonus for that
36 Astuteman : I suspect that all that would happen if LH were to unilaterally withdraw from the contract (which is unlikely) is that LH would lose the $20m - $30m
37 Travelhound : I think his thread starter was the popcorn
38 Astuteman : Hadn't thought of that.. Rgds
39 AirNZ : It would actually be better if you properly read the original post before reply with such a comment. If so, you would see the proposition was nothing
40 Stitch : AirNZ, every time the 747-8I is mentioned, Keesje brings up the same "in what situation can Boeing or LH walk away because nobody wants this plane and
41 AmtrakGuy : I must have missed this announcement. Who ordered it? How many 748i VIP version have been ordered? And is there's a link (or two) to show me what 748
42 Post contains links Eraugrad02 : Just go to www.boeing.com and click on business jets.
43 Zeke : Boeing VIP aircraft are generally delivered without an interior, they are "green" aircraft. Boeing could build "green" 747-8i frames without a single
44 DingDong : Yes, it's great news if you're an Airbus fan. Break out the champagne.
45 EPA001 : I agree with both Stitch and Zeke here! I hope to see the B747-8i in the air and delivered to LH a.s.a.p. I am sure I am going to enjoy flying on the
46 Jfk777 : Many people on this board pan the 748i, if it is such a BAD airplane, a quality airline like Lufthansa wouldn't buy it no matter how cheap. They have
47 Keesje : Sorry to annoy anyone with this topic but I suspect I'm not the only one asking this question. It seems the official press finds it to hot to handle.
48 Stitch : I was going off Boeing stating that 747-8I is said to be around 20% more fuel efficient then a 747-400 and Airbus making the same claim for the A340-
49 Travelhound : Yes, and all of these companies with the exception of ILFC have motive to protect their own position. You don't think QF would come out and say that
50 Post contains images Keesje : Boeing launched the 747-8i on nov 2005 & got LH as launch customer 13 months later. So #2   I do not believe in alliances coordinating fleet aquisit
51 Stitch : They offered it for sale in November 2005, but didn't start spending serious money on the program until LH stepped-up and actually ordered it. Fair e
52 Travelhound : I was actually trying to validate some of your reasoning from Boeings own mouth. The current market presentation is quite interesting as it states th
53 Astuteman : Although the counterargument to that is the very LH example that Stitch is using, isn't it? Although I suspect in the Boeing CMO, a large whack of th
54 Rheinbote : While there's no lack of money, human resources are far from infinite.
55 Travelhound : Yes your right. I thought I had covered that one properly! The real figure is 610 VLA's over 20 years, not 980 as I posted. Using my previous maths t
56 Columba : Technik As you always have problems with that word. I really agree with your posts here. The LH 747 fleet chief has said in an interview that they wo
57 Parapente : It seems to me that the reason that a thread like this starts and the reason it quickly rediuces itself to this level is the complete lack of informat
58 Revelation : I imagine if there were some actual news of this sort to report, someone would be reporting it. Till then, it's just a pet theory of yours. Interesti
59 Post contains images Keesje : There is one CEO that decides on billions.    I have a feeling it's too quiet. Issue is there is no hard information to confirm anything. No need t
60 AirNZ : Actually, it was more that certain a.netters were grasping at straws by hyping every normal/minor development 'progress' out of all proportion as a f
61 Zeke : Okay, I think you will find they were fuel burn per seat comparisons, not by type. The 747-8i should be burning in total around 20-25% more fuel per
62 Pnwtraveler : When the aircraft isn't even being assembled yet it is unreasonable to think there will be a steady stream of announcements about it. Watch for the as
63 CHRISBA777ER : LoL - anyone seen everyone's favourite WhaleJet hater recently? Agreed. I'm doing the same thing this Spring and i cannot wait! Interesting stuff.
64 Post contains links Stitch : http://www.boeing.com/commercial/747family/news/index.html I see announcements of a number of important milestones: 11/05 - Boeing Launches New 747-8
65 WingedMigrator : Not so fast: there is a non-zero probability that Boeing will introduce a new VLA to replace the 773 and the 748, before the year 2028.
66 Danny : How about the cost of developing 748 plus manufacturing cost of those 20-30 frames?
67 Keesje : I'm not saying Lufthansa got 60% off as the 8i launch customer. Still they were the first customer that finally (more then a yr after launch) signed
68 Stitch : Based on my financial models, current sales will likely cover the raw cost of the product delivered, including R&D and materials/labor. And if it doe
69 EA772LR : Could by chance the delays at Boeing help with the capability in the 787 and 748? Efficiency gains made to the GEnx engines (RR for the 787), weight w
70 EPA001 : Since Airbus used the delay time to mature the A380 to a superb production and service ready plane, I do not see why this same advantage would not go
71 Stitch : I expect where the delay will help Boeing is in production. By being able to identify the remaining travel work needed to be fixed on 787 ZA001-ZA004
72 JayinKitsap : The 747 line (before the strike) was still making 744's . There are 115 total models on backlog, not incredible but healthy. Say they were sold for $
73 Astuteman : Not so fast: there is a non-zero probability that the actual outturns will not match the forecasts.... Well, Boeing did say that the 748F would enter
74 A342 : Maybe they could make a healthy profit by using the slots on the line for freighters, instead of just breaking even with the passenger version. Pleas
75 Stitch : But this presupposes that the freighter customer will only order a 747-8F if delivered on a date currently filled with a 747-8I. This is very unlikel
76 Post contains links WingedMigrator : Quite so. And a non-zero probability that the OEM's don't even agree on their own public forecasts of the future market for VLAs. Industry analyst Sc
77 RedChili : It is way to late for that now. Besides, if they did cancel the contract I would arrange demonstrations outside their Frankfurt and Chicago headquart
78 Stitch : I tend to agree but, as you note, it's air over the wing, now.
79 Rwessel : Also remember that Boeing's CMO is specified in terms of deliveries, not sales. Thus approximately 325* of the 980 units have already been sold and a
80 Travelhound : Good point. Even if Boeing don't sell many passenger versions of the 748 they still have a very strong chance of capturing around 35-45% of the total
81 EA772LR : Try 60's classic! On a side note, I have a 1:200 scale 747-8I model from Hogan Models and the 748I is one beautiful airplane. It will just be stunnin
82 Astuteman : "Massive" being a relative term, of course.... Rgds
83 Keesje : I doubt it. - Boeing delayed indefinately the 787-3 after it got more orders from more loyal airlines then the 747-8i. - Lufthansa cancelled their 72
84 Columba : No, LH canceled the 728 shortly before FD went bankrupt to safe their money before it went down the drain. I doubt that Boeing will go bankrupt befor
85 Post contains images Keesje : ? Yes. When LH bowed out Dornier was gone. 5 Yrs ago Boeing was talking to 20 airlines on the aircraft. Then Qantas, Singapore, Emirates, BA, Ethihad
86 Stitch : It's a matter of public record here, so feel free to do a search. Yes, because it only had orders from two customers. Airbus did the same thing with
87 DocLightning : But if the development costs are only $300M-$1B and they sell 12 of them to LH, then they make a profit. We don't know what the unit cost is, but a 7
88 Zeke : AFAIK no decision has been on the 767s, they may or may not be purchased, they may or may not be leased. I am not satisfied that Boeing is benefiting
89 Post contains links and images Keesje : That's what happened. Maybe things won't change in that respect.
90 Columba : Okay I don´t want to argue when LH canceled the order, the reason however why they did was either Fairchild Dornier or the insolvency administrator
91 Stitch : The numbers are not that simple. You also need to factor in the cost of producing the planes, themselves. And it is very unlikely that the VIP models
92 Post contains links Zeke : Correct, but it seems the fine print is not so firm ... "JAL has not yet decided whether it will lease or purchase the 767s, and says it expects to f
93 Pnwtraveler : AC routinely does this and so does other airlines. Two of the 777 recently delivered were switched from purchased to leased close after or just befor
94 Zeke : Was the lease company Boeing ? These 767s I think are being proposed to be leased directly from Boeing, where the AC aircraft would go on say the ILF
95 Stitch : In the end, Zeke, does it matter if NH and/or JL buy or lease 767s and/or 777s to cover the delays - or even future cancellation - of the 787-3? Boei
96 Zeke : One would think yes, if it is a lease, it is costing them money and resources to build a plane that will have very little (comparatively) value when
97 Stitch : This assumes Boeing is doing the lease internally. And again, why would Boeing intentionally lose money? As for them going to Airbus, what are they go
98 Tdscanuck : The high investment stuff is the structural tools, engines, and final assembly line...given that almost all of that has already been done for the 747
99 WunalaYann : Which in itself could be considered an investment - sort of securing potential orders in the future. And before I get flamed for my oxymoron, I know
100 Astuteman : Not to mention reducing the impact of a potentially huge cash outflow from all the delay claims. Assuming penalties get written down in the discounti
101 Post contains links Stitch : The anti 747-8I crowd might want to take a look at Post #5 of this thread. Some sage words offered by PM on another commercial airliner program equall
102 Rheinwaldner : I don't understand why an airline has to be worried whether other airlines use a type too or not. If the promised performance fills a need at LH but n
103 EA772LR : Hey, if you're aren't the An224, then compared to the A380 massive wings might not be the best choice of words...
104 RedChili : Speaking of the 748, anyone knows anything about which routes Lufthansa will use the new jumbo on?
105 Post contains images EPA001 : Are you talking about the Antonov 124 or the Antonov 225? [Edited 2008-10-08 08:14:54]
106 AirNZ : I think that's part of the problem Stitch. I don't honestly think there is any actual anti 747-8i crowd (as you put it), but what I am noticing more
107 Astuteman : If there is, does that make the anti A380 crowd a multitude.. ? Rgds
108 Stitch : So any defense is by default slavish fawning? Anyone who says anything positive about the A380 (and I've spilt many an electron standing up for her)
109 EA772LR : Sorry I meant An-225... Thanks for the correction! If anyone questions the profitability of the A380 and whether or not that made good business sense
110 Astuteman : Have to agree, my friend. The 748i looks a fairly obvious thing to do IMO, and certainly isn't going to break any banks. That's probably true. Unfort
111 SEPilot : Well, as one who would gladly see all A380 orders canceled, the existing ones parked in the desert, and 748's ordered to replace them, perhaps my moti
112 Post contains images Keesje : :D IMO your "fact" is a lot of hope. If a goal of the 747-8i was to keep airlines from buying A380, I think we can all agree this was a goal not reac
113 Art : One of the most absurd approaches to world aviation that I have encountered. Had you been espousing non-VLA aircraft in the stead of VLA's, I might h
114 Manfredj : I love stitch...he's a true gentleman in a world of pawns. His points are valid ones empty of rampid speculation and "grey matter" that fill so many
115 ER757 : I absolutely agree that Boeing is not immune to the current financial problems the world economy is facing and I believe the end result will be the c
116 SEPilot : No, the goal (at least now) is to keep Airbus honest in pricing the A380. That is what I was referring to with what Boeing did with the 744.
117 SEPilot : Hey, I'm just an avid Boeing fan. I have no expectation of this ever occurring.
118 PC12Fan : He's been a anti 748 guy since day one. I think I still have a quote at my work computer of him saying that the 748 would never be launched. (be back
119 Tdscanuck : There's a big spare parts issue with this. You're right that you can absorb maintenance costs if your fleet is large enough, but spare parts are a bi
120 Stitch : But those "big parts" will mostly be in common with the 747-8F, which should sell in the hundreds. And even many items for the 747-8I are shared with
121 Tdscanuck : D'oh! I have no excuse for not realizing that...thanks! Tom.
122 Post contains links Zeke : Why do you find it hard to swallow ? I clearly said for gates where the 744 was the upper limit, if it is the limit, any aircraft wider or longer wou
123 Astuteman : The "prelim data" at the top of your link carries the number 169 000lb, or 76.7 tonnes, which it will carry for 6 200Nm, according to the P/R chart a
124 Travelhound : Aren't the gates modular in design so that they can be re-alligned with the terminal facilities if required; and if so is the cost to do this going t
125 Astuteman : Really don't get this. I reckon I'm one of the biggest A380 fans on here, but I'll be mortified if the 748i doesn't make it into mainline passenger s
126 Zeke : Thanks, I noticed the difference between the brochure dated Jan 2008, and the ACAPS document dated Sept 2008. In order to go from the taxi lane that
127 EPA001 : I could not agree more with that statement I still even love to see a B707 or DC-8 for that matter. They are noisy, but still beauties imho!
128 SEPilot : As I said earlier, this was definitely spoken tongue in cheek. As an avid Boeing fan, I regret that they have surrendered the crown of the largest ai
129 Stitch : Boeing says it uses the 777's window belt, so I am guessing the whole thing is interchangeable... Boeing AOG to the rescue!
130 Zeke : I dont know how that is possible with the different fuselage curvature. Can I ask where you saw they were using the "the 777's window belt" mentioned
131 Stitch : No I don't remember where I heard it, but it was from an aerospace publication, not a forum rumor/comment. Maybe we have some 747 or 777 engineers on
132 Rheinwaldner : Thats what I meant when I said that the overall 748 fleet size (all operators) will be at least as large as the overall fleet size of other LH widebo
133 Keesje : Lufthansa airlines will demand guaranteed global 747-8i spare availability (within x hours) for 25 yrs like any other aircraft.. $$.. For the initial
134 CHRISBA777ER : Ummmmm no - that was me. I did a huge piece about how I reckoned they would never build the pax 748i - and then they bloody launched the thing the ne
135 RedFlyer : Zeke, would the curvature necessarily have to be consistent throughout the cross section? (This issue is of relatively minor importance to this parti
136 Danny : You might still be right
137 Zeke : I don't know. As far as I am aware, the 744 has more than one part number for its windows on the main deck, and different part numbers for the window
138 Post contains links CHRISBA777ER : http://www.airliners.net/aviation-fo...SBA777ER+747+A380+built+#ID2437363 See what you think. It was a long time ago!
139 Brendows : IIRC, Boeing has said that they will use a 777-style window belt, as in a structurally comparable window belt, but not the exact same as you'll find
140 Post contains links Stitch : So? Someone was nice enough to PM me the article link. And yes, it does say "777-style" so it is likely unique to the 747-8I. But again, so what? Hon
141 Post contains images Brendows : I was just trying to point out that the window belts necessarily weren't the same       An aircraft that nobody wants? No, it hasn't sold in grea
142 Zeke : Thanks for the link Sorry for asking a question about something you wrote that I had not heard about. If it were true, it would have been a smart inv
143 EA772LR : Bravo! Gotta admire your honesty! I'm sure many would have just remained silent!
144 Stitch : Man, I'm sorry. That looks like I took a slap at you and that was anything but my intent. I understand where Keesje is coming from, in that the inter
145 Newdan : Yeah when is the 747-8i releasing?
146 EPA001 : Nope, that would not be too bad for Boeing. It is funny though, I am a strong believer in LH ordering both the B787 and the A350! LH always kept a po
147 Stitch : I still think LH would prefer to go all-Airbus and if Airbus offered an A340-700 or an A380-700 with the same operating economics for LH that they fee
148 EPA001 : That is the true spirit of a big fan of aviation and a very respected member here on A-net! I could not agree more! Kind regards!
149 PW100 : I would expect that the number of windows on one single airframe [times 27 airframes sold now] would warrant a reasonable stock of spare parts at rea
150 Brendows : No problem at all Stitch, I know you're not like that I just wanted to make it clear that I didn't belong in the same category as those who have seco
151 Pnwtraveler : I don't understand people being so pro or con to a given manufacturer across the board. I know what I think about the business side of the two manufac
152 Stitch : People have their favorites and I don't begrudge them that. I also don't begrudge people being critical of a family or a manufacturer if they apply l
153 Post contains images Keesje : A small and only administrative change.. Looking at pictures of 747-8 VIP's I see little relation with a passenger variant, so maybe just Airco etc.
154 CHRISBA777ER : You dont need to justify yourself to us Stich old buddy - I think we all know you are not a Cheerleader in the negative sense of the word. Nowt wrong
155 Rheinwaldner : On these images, are those backrests inflatable? In my eyes the design of this interior is staggeringly tasteless. Overloaded, incoherent mix of mate
156 CHRISBA777ER : IT reminds me of the Burj-al-Arab - staggeringly expensive but utterly tasteless in my opinion. Then again, I am not a staggeringly rich oil Sheikh w
157 Art : That's the point, isn't it? However while I won't give a view on the aesthetics of the decor, I think it could be far better presented in the same ve
158 CHRISBA777ER : I thought about it for a couple of days but the Mrs would kill me - she's an Airbus fan you see. She's well into her minimal decor thing so we'd end
159 EPA001 : If that is the only "problem" you have with making such a decision, I would trade with you (or especially your bank-account) immideately when given t
160 AirNZ : CHRISBA777ER I just want to congratulate you Chris, on your absolutely first-class and superb post.......reply 154!! It was put absolutely magnificent
161 Travelhound : Oh look guys, Stop It! I'm starting to get a little teary!
162 PC12Fan : Actually, you were not the one I thought was the one that made this claim. -
163 Alessandro : Well, stranger things has happened than a cancellation of this aircraft version, perhaps Boeing need the staff from the B748i design studio to help o
164 Post contains images Keesje : I think it would not really hurt Boeing to simplify the supply chain towards 747-8F, nor seem enormous sales opportunities lost. So if ever (purely t
165 AirNZ : Yes Stitch, I fully understand what you mean, and I sympathise. I certainly wasn't getting at you, and I apologise if it inadvertently came across as
166 Alessandro : I would prefer a globemaster version instead of the bending forward loading ramp.
167 Post contains links and images Keesje : http://www.flightglobal.com/articles...ump-for-747-frustrates-boeing.html
168 Post contains links Stitch : Well they're keeping the contract staff on longer, and those folks are not cheap. But another $100-200 million (if it's even that) is nothing, really,
169 Danny : " target=_blank>http://www.airliners.net/aviation-fo...8391/ I thought that (according to popular here myth) the 20 for LH already made program profi
170 Stitch : Chances are it has, and these extra costs are probably low enough to not change that equation. *shrug*
171 Tdscanuck : I don't think anyone knows for sure. If by "program" you mean the whole 747-8, I'm pretty sure the freighters alone made it profitable. If you just m
172 Post contains links Iwok : http://www.flightglobal.com/articles...ump-for-747-frustrates-boeing.html "Boeing estimates a total market for 345 747-8s, including roughly 260 frei
173 Astuteman : Not that it matters much, but I understood the original sales goal to be round 750 frames for the A380, which would mean it is about 1/4 of the way t
174 Rheinwaldner : But the target is much more humbly than before. This Boeign statement is the first time I recognize that the passenger version is expected to generat
175 Post contains images Keesje : I think it would be interresting for a lot of a.netters to scroll back to their reactions on this threat of just 2 weeks ago. I think I sense a high s
176 DocLightning : I think Boeing decided to build the 748F. The 748i was sort of a "might-as-well" project. The wings were already done. The fuselage was already done.
177 Astuteman : I think most of us will be eternally grateful for their passion and efforts in that regard too. I believe Boeing initially saw 748 sales as being spl
178 Post contains images Stitch : If the original A350 was still stuck at around 250-300 sales vs. the closing on 1000 the 787 had, would people be starting threads telling Airbus they
179 Astuteman : Difficult to say, really. The circumstances were different. The A380 programme was going east by 2 years, and it's entirely possible that large swath
180 Post contains images Keesje : Airbus cancelled the original A350 quicker with more orders then the 747-8i. Boeing did the same with the 787-3. During a booming economic period. I
181 Brendows : Could you please tell us when Boeing canceled the 787-3? Because it didn't really stand up to its direct competitor, the 787. The 748i is largely bas
182 SXDFC : I would love to hear about that experience but from what I remember OA did not go under yet Maybe airlines are just waiting for the actual 748i to fl
183 Keesje : They used to. Experience learned you better look good yourself & check flightblogger.
184 WingedMigrator : This is a terrible idea because it would reduce cabin floor area and seating capacity. The additional range would be more than offset by the loss in
185 Stitch : Do you honestly believe that? To my knowledge, no A380 customer ever publicly said that they were considering the 747-8I as a fall-back position. In
186 Astuteman : A fair response, Stitch. I said it was possible, which has to be true. In truth, strenuous efforts were made to make us believe it here on A-net, but
187 PM : Well, "dacades" (plural) means at least two so you're suggesting the 748i will still be in production in 2028? Frankly, I find that hard to see... Bo
188 Hb88 : "sub-optimal"? "least desirable"? Stitch, I know you're not an Airbus fan, but the reality is the 380 is proving to be an excellent aircraft for the
189 Astuteman : To be fair to Stitch, these two aren't exactly the same thing....... Rgds
190 EPA001 : That is very much true. And the turbulent times we live in today will make it even harder to sell large expensive planes in any significant numbers t
191 Keesje : If the OEW and fuel consumption are significantly lower as well as development costs and production and the range is e.g. EK-LAX without a problem, c
192 Hamlet69 : That's an interesting argument, and one I'd like to make a counter-argument on. In order to fit within the 80x80 box, the A380 is a compromised desig
193 Astuteman : Won't argue. Every design of anything, including aircraft is compromised. That's why the solution is "engineered". I'd be careful in assuming that a
194 ER757 : You really won't let this go will you? Can we expect you to finally give up on "kill the 748" threads once the 1st one is delivered to LH?
195 Stitch : I don't see why it could not be available for sale and production at that time, even if for only as a VIP plane. Many A380 supporters (myself among t
196 PW100 : Popcorn popping maybe . . . ?
197 Keesje : Stitch I know you have a natural impuls to defend underdogs. Nothing against Boeing however. I think the doing 747-8i would weaken them & I won't lik
198 ER757 : They seem to disagree with you, maybe you should write a letter to the board of directors Bottom line - they said they'd build it, LH has bought it a
199 JRDC930 : Me too, that would mean boeing's production capacity slowed way down if it took 20 years to produce 20 passenger planes...and yes im making the very
200 Stitch : I am on record as noting that the 747-8 program was likely a mistake, because I do feel the 747-8I doesn't have much chance against the A380-800 and
201 NA : Wait until the 748I flies. Maybe its economics are even better than predicted. Hey, that jet has engines one generation more advanced than a 777. Boei
202 Stitch : The problem with that is Airbus can lower the price of the A388 and A346 and win the complete RFP. For the same price, the A388 is a better value the
203 Tdscanuck : Derivative vs. new type. *Zero* comparison on the number of sales required for a successful program. Tom.
204 Stitch : Actually, Keesje has a point, except that the A350 had very little actual investment spent on it when it was canceled in favor of what became the A35
205 Pnwtraveler : However accurate or inaccurate our postulating and commentary is, we are still without a very key piece of information and my crystal ball is out for
206 Tdscanuck : Agreed, that's a much more apt comparison. Not sure if we can conclude based on that that Boeing should or shouldn't keep the 747-8i though... Tom.
207 SKY1 : Are you serious? Please, think twice about it. I do believe it's quite the opposite. Boeing is going to get weaken IF they give a good, unexpected gi
208 Iwok : Right and its achieved that in 9-years, just under half its production life.... Either way, neither is selling like hot cakes. And why is that? The F
209 JRDC930 : Not trying to be a jerk,m but could you tell me who they are i wasnt aware there wereany...also why not wait and get the 748i?
210 Post contains links Iwok : http://active.boeing.com/commercial/...optReportType=AnnOrd&pageid=m15521 http://active.boeing.com/commercial/...ageid=m25062&RequestTimeout=100000 2
211 PM : I was replying to a comment that said the "748i" had "decades" in it. It wasn't referring to the 748F. Hence my distinction in my reply.
212 Astuteman : That's a very fair and valid comment, Stitch, and as the 748F will continue trundling off the lines ad-nauseam (even after Airbus bring the PROPER A3
213 DocLightning : They shouldn't do that. Airbus is amazing with numbers. Their planes are a mass of calculations. The wing on the A320 is so efficient that winglets w
214 Astuteman : I think they're all remarkable from my seat (and I'm an engineer). Age of the underying platform notwithstanding , the 748i will have some remarkable
215 SEPilot : Boeing surely remembers the highway robbery they committed upon customers when they had a VLA monopoly and doesn't want to allow Airbus the same oppo
216 Stitch : I'll forgo re-typing all of what I just did in the other thread, but just distill it down to this: If Boeing cancels the 747-8I, that makes every 747
217 JayinKitsap : Excellent points. Every product has price points: - A A380 vs 744 or nothing allows sales possibly as high as list provides huge margins. Against the
218 Tdscanuck : That's not why they don't have winglets on an A320. It's not a matter of efficiency, it's a matter of structural margin. *Any* wing gets better perfo
219 AirNZ : In your rush to show importance and unqualified bias, would it not be better actually reading. If you would do so you would clearly see that PM was r
220 Stitch : It can benefit from winglets, it just lacks the natural strength to support them (as originally planned). The weight penalty of beefing the wing to t
221 Baroque : You are missing the point a bit. If the 748I was as competitive as its proponents suggest, it would have been expected to have done better relative t
222 Tdscanuck : It's not playing with words...it *is* physically possible for winglets to improve the A320 wing, you just have to strengthen the wing to support them
223 PlanesNTrains : Do you see him defending the underdog 748i? It seems he is saying it was a mistake to proceed with it, and that Airbus has the superior A380. -Dave
224 Stitch : My argument is not, nor has it ever been, that the 747-8I is a competitive platform to the A380-800. My argument is that, having already sunk hundreds
225 SEPilot : And yet there as been almost as much a lack of interest in the A380; it hasn't exactly been flying into the order books. VLA's in general are not doi
226 Post contains images Keesje : let's fix this I have the impression most people think the 747-8i is a good idea whatever happens. If Boeing would aborts the 747-8i path now they sa
227 Astuteman : Nice one That would have been the "official" roll-out. Since then she's been back in the hall, and was rolled out again last week. Weather wasn't as
228 Stitch : I expect dedicated 747-8I suppliers have already begun placing orders for machine tools and other infrastructure to make those parts, even if they ha
229 AirNZ : Whilst it may be physically possible for winglets to the job, surely the strengthening of the wing to take them defeats the purpose somewhat......wou
230 SEPilot : All this crap about the 748 not being a VLA is like arguing about how many angels can fit on the head of a pin. As far as I am concerned there are tw
231 WingedMigrator : These things aren't quite so absolute; remember there is as much carbon fiber in an A380, by weight, as there is in a 787. In other words, not a triv
232 ER757 : I think that sentiment is shared by many, if not most, of the folks on this site! Well, if you can arrange to have on sail into Puget Sound, I will m
233 Tdscanuck : Yes, as far as weight. That's exactly what happened with the 737NG. Tough to tell as far as the cost/work for the modification...but that has nothing
234 Astuteman : I'll join WM in supporting that, Stitch. I used this argument in defence of the A380. It would be remiss not to apply it equally to the 748i...... Er
235 Baroque : Never in dispute SEP, well not by me. But it does appear that in except the LH case, where there have been competing proposals involving both, the A3
236 Post contains images Keesje : It see this argument surfacing all the time. Regardless of being a VLA or not comparing 748 to a380 from a market perspective is nonsense because the
237 AirNZ : I wouldn't be attempting to change your mind SEPilot as I agree with you absolutely, 100% and unequivocally. I am certainly not one of the members wh
238 Post contains images Keesje : Looks like a decent VLA to me. Lenght isn't that important, talk to your wife.
239 SEPilot : Good point; my reason for excepting the XP is that then you would have to include the MD-11, as I believe that it actually has more passenger capacit
240 Astuteman : Another GREAT picture, K.. Rgds
241 Iwok : I got that ANZ, and my mistake. ....but I'm not sure its a valid point. For example, if this were a discussion on how the 340NG was a total waste of
242 Art : Am I right in thinking that Boeing will not be fitting out the interiors of the BBJ's and that fitting out is where the highest margins are made? Eve
243 Post contains images Keesje : So, lets give it a shot. Spirit finished the first cockpit section so assembly will hopefully soon start. If assembly will starts Q1 2009, taking 3 qu
244 SCAT15F : Boy, I hope it doesn't take that long, LH will never get their Intercontinentals. BTW, does anyone know if the 6 upper deck windows on the 748F are go
245 Brendows : Why would they need 9 months to assemble a derivative? New wing profile, new flaps, drooped ailerons, trailing edge wedge, yes, but still not an enti
246 Keesje : A very different profile, new flap systems, droopnoses, trailing edge wedge, lets add pressure distribution, MTOW -> bending moments, span, engines &
247 OldAeroGuy : Boeing has already been to the FAA and the answer is that a new static test will not be required.
248 Stitch : I can't find any record of the A340-500 and A340-600 having to perform static tests of their new wings, so I don't see why the 747-8 would... As the
249 HB88 : Uh, you lost me there! Never mind. I'll reread and pay more attention.
250 Tdscanuck : I believe that it's sold empty to the BBJ group, then they take care of coordinating the outfitting with the customer. So yes, I expect the interior
251 Post contains links Art : Here's a little bit of 748 news from Flight 23 October 2008. Sorry if it has already been posted. Boeing's third quarter earnings statement released y
252 SEPilot : There are two distinct aspects to a wing; structural and aerodynamic. All of the changes on the 747-8 wing are aerodynamic, not structural. The only
253 Post contains links Keesje : Indeed also a different wing so no grandfathering.. http://www.emeraldinsight.com/Insigh...Article/Articles/12774eaf.003.html
254 SEPilot : As I mentioned before, you need to look at exactly what is different before deciding whether it is structurally different or not. Aerodynamic changes
255 Astuteman : For sure the 748's engines aren't the same weight as the 744's..... Whether that drives a static test or not, I wouldn't know. Rgds
256 Zeke : The plan form is going to much the same, the difference is with the aerofoil section which is giving it s increased fuel capacity (also changes for l
257 SEPilot : I really don't know; I know they are much more efficient and higher thrust, and assumed that they were not much heavier. But even if they are, comput
258 Stitch : Since that link is not public, was that a "destruction test" to 150% of load or was it just a test of the basic structure of the wing?
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