Gosimeon From Sweden, joined Jan 2008, 655 posts, RR: 0 Posted (4 years 7 months 2 weeks 4 days 18 hours ago) and read 5160 times:
It seems today is "D-Day" for Aer Lingus' management's attempt to make the airline a viable company. Irish TV channel RTE is reporting that management will tell unions what their plans are later today, with the following to be announced:
-1500 redundancies, from their workforce of 4000.
-Outsourcing of ground operations, which will account for many of the above redundancies
-Using USA-based crew for trans-Atlantic flights
It is believed that Aer Lingus management is not willing to battle this one out with the unions, and will press ahead with the plans with immediate effect.
Main union SIPTU has said it is totally opposed to any outsourcing, and will not tolerate such a move.
Interesting days ahead for the Irish flag carrier.
As the chinese say "may you live in interesting times"
Any word on reducing the level of manageers employed by EI?
Any word on the top managers not receiving their yearly bonuses due to the financial difficulties at the moment?
Any word of actual attempts to gain larger market share rather just than cutting costs?
Any word of streamlining the company to increse efficiency rather than just off loading staff costs?
Tonystan From Ireland, joined Jan 2006, 1174 posts, RR: 2 Reply 4, posted (4 years 7 months 2 weeks 4 days 14 hours ago) and read 4874 times:
Well they have suggested crew bases in SFO, JFK and BOS which is pretty shocking. If they succeed in closing SNN then they are replacing it with THREE bases! I appreciate that it is cheaper for them to perhaps operate with US crew but then each base will require support staff etc so I cannot see how this would be a saving over having just the one base in DUB operating longhaul flights.
COEI2007 From Vanuatu, joined Jan 2007, 1912 posts, RR: 6 Reply 7, posted (4 years 7 months 2 weeks 4 days 13 hours ago) and read 4762 times:
Quoting Smokeyrosco (Reply 5): EDIT and just saw on RTE.ie that SFO, JFK and BOS will be staffed with US based crews.
Thats for next summer, however, there will be a redundancy package for crew, so this could be a threat. If they got rid of T/A flying, it would scare a lot of more senior crew into leaving
Tonystan From Ireland, joined Jan 2006, 1174 posts, RR: 2 Reply 10, posted (4 years 7 months 2 weeks 4 days 11 hours ago) and read 4644 times:
Quoting COEI2007 (Reply 7): If they got rid of T/A flying, it would scare a lot of more senior crew into leaving
Quoting Bennett123 (Reply 9): If they get rid of TATL, then MOL is waiting.
I think what COEI2007 means Bennett is if EI get rid of TA flying for home based crews, not get rid of it altogether! LOL!
There does not seem to be any question over longhaul routes being withdrawn altogether.
Bramble From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR: Reply 11, posted (4 years 7 months 2 weeks 4 days 11 hours ago) and read 4628 times:
Quoting Bennett123 (Reply 9): If they get rid of TATL, then MOL is waiting.
At the same time any reduction in longhaul flying by EI, or even a futher delay to other L/H dests does leave a gap for Mo'L and RyanAtlantic to exploit.
ItalianFlyer From United States of America, joined Nov 2007, 948 posts, RR: 2 Reply 12, posted (4 years 7 months 2 weeks 4 days 11 hours ago) and read 4605 times:
Am I reading that an EU airline is considering it cheaper to outsource TO the USA?!?!?
If so then that speaks volumes about the dollar and where its headed :-/
Smokeyrosco From Ireland, joined Dec 2005, 2112 posts, RR: 14 Reply 13, posted (4 years 7 months 2 weeks 4 days 11 hours ago) and read 4597 times:
Just thinking this evening,
I can't see ANY of the DUB handling agents being able to take over all the Aer Lingus operation, I can see it been split into two (or even 3) contracts. With T/A ops being handled by one agent and short haul ops been handled by another one or two agents.... confusing this would be I know.
I like the fact they saw sense and are moving to smaller offices, I hope they follow the line of WX and RE and move to somewhere off airport as this has saved WX a lot of money apparently.
Quoting COEI2007 (Reply 7): Thats for next summer, however, there will be a redundancy package for crew, so this could be a threat. If they got rid of T/A flying, it would scare a lot of more senior crew into leaving
That makes sense to me now. To be honest I don't see a point in flying with American crews when your only flying to DUB and SNN, but given that BFS and possibly another base will come online in the next two years it starts to make sense then. Hopefully there will be an 'Irishness' amongst the American crews though.
CallBell From Germany, joined Mar 2008, 216 posts, RR: 0 Reply 14, posted (4 years 7 months 2 weeks 4 days 11 hours ago) and read 4577 times:
Quoting COEI2007 (Reply 7): Thats for next summer, however, there will be a redundancy package for crew, so this could be a threat. If they got rid of T/A flying, it would scare a lot of more senior crew into leaving
Remember though that there have been big clear outs of more senior crew in the last few redundancy packages. The "senior" crew that are there now aren't flying 20+ years. A lot of us are flying around the 10 yr mark and have mortgages and families. A redundancy package will be less attractive for these reasons and because there are less and less jobs to go to as an alternative.
BrianDromey From Ireland, joined Dec 2006, 3807 posts, RR: 10 Reply 15, posted (4 years 7 months 2 weeks 4 days 11 hours ago) and read 4577 times:
Quoting Smokeyrosco (Reply 13): That makes sense to me now. To be honest I don't see a point in flying with American crews when your only flying to DUB and SNN, but given that BFS and possibly another base will come online in the next two years it starts to make sense then. Hopefully there will be an 'Irishness' amongst the American crews though.
I think you are right. SFO, BOS and JFK will surely get services to destinations other than DUB. I think EI might have big plans for these airports, if they are opening crew bases there.
Brian.
Next flights: MAN-ORK-LHR(EI)-MAN(BD); MAN-LHR(BD)-ORK (EI); DUB-ZRH-LAX (LX) LAX-YYZ (AC) YYZ-YHZ-LHR(AC)-DUB(BD)
Oa260 From Ireland, joined Nov 2006, 24894 posts, RR: 60 Reply 16, posted (4 years 7 months 2 weeks 4 days 11 hours ago) and read 4539 times:
Quoting Smokeyrosco (Reply 13): Hopefully there will be an 'Irishness' amongst the American crews though.
Probably will be since half of America claims to be Irish. But seriously its great to see so many varied nationalities in EI uniform these days. Last week I saw an Indian and a Nigerian cabin crew member whilst at DUB. The more diverse the better IMHO. It represents the new Ireland and the reality of being Irish today.
OLYMPIC AIR - ΟΛΥΜΠΙΑΚΗ "Η ΕΛΛΑΔΑ ΨΗΛΑ" "GREECE FLYING HIGH"
EIRules From Ireland, joined Aug 2007, 641 posts, RR: 10 Reply 17, posted (4 years 7 months 2 weeks 4 days 11 hours ago) and read 4526 times:
Quoting BrianDromey (Reply 15): I think you are right. SFO, BOS and JFK will surely get services to destinations other than DUB. I think EI might have big plans for these airports, if they are opening crew bases there
Thats all well and good to have big plans for them with perhaps flights to BFS, MAN, EDI, GLA etc? But if EI dont get their act together and decide what direction the airline is going in then I'm afraid to say EI will no longer exist. They have no proper identity with the public already with their half hearted long haul offering and their low cost short haul, and now having an outside company doing their handling at their home base, that cannot help.
I am sorry to say this but I think that the best thing for EI would be if they were bought by another airline and operated as a separate company (ie LH and LX), Bring in managers who know about product, have a real corporate identity, and have some kind of ambition. I do understand that EI have had to react to the situation they are in but I'm sorry to say that some of the situation they find themselves in is due to poor management over the past number of years. As the economy grew at an unprecedented rate, EI just havent kept up and have been overtaken by other airlines. Just my 2c
Next Flights: EI DUB-LHR A320, BA LHR-SFO B744, UA SFO-LAS A320, BA LAS-LHR B744, EI LHR-DUB A320
Bramble From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR: Reply 18, posted (4 years 7 months 2 weeks 4 days 10 hours ago) and read 4495 times:
Quoting Smokeyrosco (Reply 13): I like the fact they saw sense and are moving to smaller offices, I hope they follow the line of WX and RE and move to somewhere off airport as this has saved WX a lot of money apparently.
The HOB is worth a lot of money. Am sure they could generate a steady income by renting it to the DAA or perhaps a hotel chain.
Quoting Smokeyrosco (Reply 13): Hopefully there will be an 'Irishness' amongst the American crews though.
Can't see tht happened. Any USA based crews would be 'anyone will do' or recruited by another company in the states.
Quoting EIRules (Reply 17): But if EI dont get their act together and decide what direction the airline is going in then I'm afraid to say EI will no longer exist. They have no proper identity with the public already with their half hearted long haul offering and their low cost short haul, and now having an outside company doing their handling at their home base, that cannot help.
Second this.
Quoting EIRules (Reply 17): I am sorry to say this but I think that the best thing for EI would be if they were bought by another airline and operated as a separate company (ie LH and LX), Bring in managers who know about product, have a real corporate identity, and have some kind of ambition.
Agree here. DM was supposed to be that type of White Knight. He arrives asked how things are done,didn't make any changes to the managment structure...2 years later here we are.
ChrisNH From United States of America, joined Jun 1999, 3805 posts, RR: 2 Reply 19, posted (4 years 7 months 2 weeks 4 days 10 hours ago) and read 4492 times:
Quoting EISHN (Reply 6): EDIT and just saw on RTE.ie that SFO, JFK and BOS will be staffed with US based crews.
Marvelous choices, those. Three of THE most expensive cities to live in here. (insert 'roll-eyes' smiley here). Yes, yes...I know these are Aer Lingus cities. But are they 'economical' as compared to Dublin?
F1eddie From Ireland, joined May 2007, 461 posts, RR: 0 Reply 20, posted (4 years 7 months 2 weeks 4 days 10 hours ago) and read 4457 times:
Dermot Mannion will run EI into the ground. They may as well be bought out now like EIRules said, but the only problem there would be some of the LHR slots would be sold off.
I was thinking while reading all of this i wonder could the ground handling get together and set up there own company and still deal with EI and others.... Im going to BHX in two weeks. Looks like i should start to worry....
Flown on EI, FR, BMI, TG, PG, FD, JQ, DJ, LA, NZ, SQ, DL, LX, LH
Kukkudrill From Malta, joined Dec 2004, 1122 posts, RR: 5 Reply 21, posted (4 years 7 months 2 weeks 4 days 10 hours ago) and read 4401 times:
Quoting ChrisNH (Reply 19): Marvelous choices, those. Three of THE most expensive cities to live in here. (insert 'roll-eyes' smiley here). Yes, yes...I know these are Aer Lingus cities. But are they 'economical' as compared to Dublin?
Recruiting people from the US should cost a lot less than sending people over from Ireland as expatriates (if this is currently the case), since you would have to pay expatriates accommodation and subsistence as well as salary.
Make the most of the available light ... a lesson of photography that applies to life
EI320 From Ireland, joined Dec 2007, 1415 posts, RR: 0 Reply 22, posted (4 years 7 months 2 weeks 4 days 9 hours ago) and read 4374 times:
These plans are far more radical than I ever thought they would be and I was shocked to hear the long list of changes proposed. I strongly disagree with the idea of making all SNN cabin crew redundant and "replacing" them with US based crews, it's a disgrace and it's shows how little the management up in Dublin respect staff on the ground. I understand that cuts are needed for the long-term viability of the airline, but I don't see how the savings achieved by using US based crews could justify this.
SIPTU have decided to ballot all their members for industrial action already. Since SIPTU is so opposed to outsourcing, I don't see how strike can be avoided. Throw in IMPACT who would probably be only too happy to join in and you've got an all out strike effectively. Interesting times ahead.
No word yet, but since all SNN cabin crew are being let go and EI111/133 will be crewed from the US, I suspect the SNN leg will be cut and the flight will be crewed from DUB.
Quoting EISHN (Reply 6): Also, will the Maintenance staff at the hangar in Shannon (SNN) be affected by this?
The maintainance facilty is being retained.
Quoting Shamrock350 (Reply 8): Shannon operations would be safe if the cost cutting goes through
2 or 3 years down the line I'm not sure they would be safe, but they'd stand a much better chance of surviving.
Quoting Smokeyrosco (Reply 13): I can't see ANY of the DUB handling agents being able to take over all the Aer Lingus operation, I can see it been split into two (or even 3) contracts
I suppose EI will try and choose one handling agent to cover DUB/SNN/ORK so they can negotiate a better deal?? Servisair would probably be able for it, since some EI staff would just transfer over?
Quoting Bramble (Reply 18): The HOB is worth a lot of money. Am sure they could generate a steady income by renting it to the DAA or perhaps a hotel chain.
Aer Lingus don't own Head Office. They just have it on a long term lease until 2060 or something like that. They could develop it though and rent it like you said
Quoting EIRules (Reply 17): But if EI dont get their act together and decide what direction the airline is going in then I'm afraid to say EI will no longer exist
I agree, it's very hard to know exactly where EI is heading. With the reduction in A330's next year and orders having been deferred, it's hard to know where EI is heading regards long haul. If all ground staff are outsourced, you might as well be flying FR, you wouldn't know the difference.
Al2637 From Ireland, joined Oct 2006, 405 posts, RR: 3 Reply 24, posted (4 years 7 months 2 weeks 4 days 9 hours ago) and read 4318 times:
A couple of points...
On the crewing of TA flights from US bases, I've said it for a long time now, this makes perfect operational sense. EI will now be able to start ops from JFK/BOS/SFO to DUB, SNN, ORK, BFS, MAN, EDI without having to dedicate an aircraft. In reality, the main driver behind this is that employment laws in the US are a lot less than in Ireland.. I'm guessing they will be non union staff so easier to fire in future. Plus, they'll probbaly be going in at a very low grade, so salary will be lower than the average salary of a Dublin based crew member.
I wouldn't get too hung up on agency staff doing the ground handling at DUB/SNN/ORK, most of the time the return part of your journey is being handled by an agent in a foreign country anyway... have you ever really had a problem? In fact it's the opposite, they are usually a lot more efficient and friendly than the EI DUB crew! But again, this isn't about the staff being employeed directly by EI or an agency (EI are big enough to dictate the level of service).. this is about being able to renegotiate the terms and conditions of ground handling staff.. i.e. fire them all, then hire them all back at minimum wage through an agency.
If they close the LHR base, will that mean no early LHR-DUB/ORK services? or will they put an irish crew up in a hotel?
In terms of expansion, I don't know where you guys think that is going to come from. Demand has collapsed, every airline is cutting capacity, EI are no exception. They need to cut now and get themselves back to profit before they take any more long haul gambles
25 Bramble: EI do not have Irish/expat crews based outside Ireland. Currently they have longhaul crew in Dublin or Shannon who operate to the States,overnight th
26 F1eddie: Yeah im flying EI into BHX ont he 18th of this month, so im a bit worried it may not fly!! I was looking forward to trying the breakfasts you all go
27 COEI2007: But there are a lot of crew out there that have had enough of flying, and would take a package. Ant there are a lot of T/A crew who hate Europes, so
28 EICVD: I agree but lets be honest, the majority of the Irish population dont like this new Ireland & dare I say it, most of the EI fan club on here would pr
29 Smokeyrosco: I agree with you here, I don't believe it will be 1500 jobs in the end, time for a bit of barterism.
30 BrianDromey: It is certainly possible. I think SIPTU will see the writing on the wall for SNN, at the very least. They might do some sort of deal at ORK too. Perh
31 CallBell: But this still wont be incentive enough to take a package if there is no other job to go to. The point I was making is that ther aren't as many crew
32 Kaitak: Well, SIPTU is calling this "Irish Ferries II" (a reference to the car ferry company which tried to replace its workforce with cheaper foreign staff);
33 OA260: This seems to be the curse of EI. Strikes strikes and more strikes.
34 JWMD123: Something needs to be done so EI don't continue down the path of losses. This is the only the start of the process. This gives the unions a chance to
35 EIRules: Does SIPTU really think that by grounding the EI fleet with strikes that this is going to help? If the airline is losing the kind of money that has b
36 Smokeyrosco: True enough, I'll be looking at booking someone (hopefully EI) across the pond in March and June next year but if regular threats of strikes are going
37 OA260: Did Alitalia unions? Problem is they probably dont care . AZ went to the brink and back.
38 AirNZ: I very sadly have to agree with your reasoning there, and more sad for a once very proud airline. I perfectly understand the need for cost savings in
39 Gosimeon: Worrying states fro the Independent today: "Last year Aer Lingus paid its 3,700 staff €307m, an average of almost €83,000 per head. The staff proc
40 AirNZ: Sorry, maybe I'm misunderstanding something here, so feel entirely free to correct me.....but how does crewing TA flights from US bases and with US-b
41 Bx737: Having been working for EI for over 12 years and having been promoted twice, I can quite honestly say to you that I would love to be earning €83,00
42 Bramble: EI is not AZ. EI has 802M in the bank and has made a profit 8 out the last 10 years. EI has made recent cost reduction to position themselves strongl
43 Al2637: It's operationally more efficient as you increase utilization rates... e.g. if EI decide to start a 4 times weekly BFS-JFK service, what happens the
44 JWMD123: I think some of the figures your have quoted were drafted up by FR and are open to debate. FR do not include contract staff they use in their overall
45 Al2637: Agreed, EI have tried to increase utilisation by deploying long haul aircraft on routes around Europe, but this will only really work from DUB, it's
46 EIRules: I couldnt of said it better myself. We all questioned the appointment of Dermot Mannion at EI and I'm afraid he has done little of note to change thi
47 Bramble: Here's some facts for EI in the last 10 years: All figures refer to the 10 years up to end of 2007: EI worker have increased productivity by 320% Ei m
48 Shamrock350: The main problem I have with these cost cuts is the outsourcing of ground staff because they do a fantastic job and this was proved during the summer
49 Abrelosojos: = Then that is sad. As we move to a more multi-cultural world, a small country like Ireland can gain further by embracing and benefiting from it. = Y
50 OA260: Very true . As a foreigner here, Ireland has certainly become a better place for the multi national mix. In fairness most embrace it but like everywh
51 Shamrock350: It's still around which is a huge shame but it will never really go away unfortunately, a Mosque where I live was covered in graffiti last week and t
52 Bx737: I am a shareholder and I am concerned that EI has cut off some of its revenue sources. The point was made above that fleet utilisation should be incr
53 Tonystan: Couldnt agree more. On my commutes to LHR in recent years I am noticing it more and more that the crew are becoming very multi national. There is eve
54 Bramble: Honestly I don't know the yield. I can tell you that EI made a profit of EUR82M in 2007. Productivity figure is based on numbers of pax carried per s
55 BrianDromey: And you can bet your house that this battle will be monumentus and incredibly bitter. EI have shot across the brow of SIPTU. Outsourcing ground jobs
56 AirNZ: Wait a minute though, as I feel you are talking about two entirely different aspects. In reply to you I asked how crewing aircraft with US-based crew
57 Bramble: It is a concept which has worked the world over. However the BA crew in India are on the same conditions as the BA staff in London...this is why thos
58 Abrelosojos: = Agree completely - and I think the world we are moving to will see more of that. EI can retain their shamrock and its green image while having fore
59 Bramble: At the moment there is no mention of foreign ownership. Personally I would welcome a LH takeover (for example) with subsequent replacement of the lea
60 Mutu: So LH has LX and wil get (If our rumours and views are to be believed) SK BD AZ OS SN and now EI!!! That I would love to see get through Brussels!!!!
61 Mutu: oh, and IB as well when the BA pension deficit scuppers that deal!!
62 Oa260: Nice lol.... its often the way. I learnt some Irish when I first came. I got the RTE tapes and books. My collegues asked me why on earth I wanted to
63 Abrelosojos: = Hey. I was just responding to the comment below. Saludos, A.
64 Mutu: Well as Bankers from around the world (together with politicians) gather to draw up combined responses, and competition rules are amended in various
65 BrianDromey: You are right to an extent. But the effect on Ireland as an economy if either of our two main airlines were to beliquidated would be severe. Imagine
66 Malaysia: Yes it always has been cheaper for years to outsource to USA vs. EU
67 Bx737: Granted it was the same staff who had their incomes reduced, however the point I was making was that there was less willingness to help passengers, i
68 COEI2007: To be honest, EI can barely manage 4 bases at the moment, so I can hardly see them managing bases in the US. I would be surprised if they manage to g
69 Smokeyrosco: On the wage issue, does anyone know how many ex Team Aer Lingus staff are still working for EI, Didn't they transfer over to jobs like cleaning and ba
70 Bramble: I can't beleive tha still happens. I knew it did but I was under the impression the many of those staff were approaching early retirement age so were
71 Mutu: Oh dont get me wrong I quite agree. My point was simply for banks, governments are bending the rules, for airlines strictly enforcing those rules and
72 Bramble: Nothing new in last couple of days. DIscussions between company and unions to commence next week. Company refuses to discuss any form of alternate rev
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