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Star Alliance Talking To AV, TA, CM, S7 And FV  
User currently offlineOta1 From Germany, joined Apr 2008, 399 posts, RR: 0
Posted (5 years 11 months 2 weeks 5 hours ago) and read 10069 times:
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In today's daily news ATWonline cites Star Alliance CEO Jaan Albrecht saying that the alliance was in talks with Avianca, TACA and Copa Airlines with an annoucement to be made in 2009.
Furthermore *A is talking to S7 Airlines and Rossiya as future members... Interesting times ahead

see here:

atwonline

49 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineSflaflight From United States of America, joined Nov 2005, 1183 posts, RR: 1
Reply 1, posted (5 years 11 months 2 weeks 5 hours ago) and read 10072 times:

Star becoming to big and too redundant in many markets?


........

It almost seems like Star is becoming obsessed with having a airline/affiliate in every country in the world.

........

What is making all these airlines join it? PR, Sales pitch to airlines, mamagement perks, what?

[Edited 2008-10-08 00:27:55]

User currently offlineLAXintl From United States of America, joined May 2000, 25337 posts, RR: 49
Reply 2, posted (5 years 11 months 2 weeks 5 hours ago) and read 10061 times:



Quoting Sflaflight (Reply 1):
Star becoming to big and too redundant in many markets?

The more choices, and connectivity the better for the flyer.



From the desert to the sea, to all of Southern California
User currently offlineSflaflight From United States of America, joined Nov 2005, 1183 posts, RR: 1
Reply 3, posted (5 years 11 months 2 weeks 5 hours ago) and read 10057 times:



Quoting LAXintl (Reply 2):

The more choices, and connectivity the better for the flyer.

(Sorry I hit enter by accident)
I agree 100% with you for the flyer, but it just seems that Sky and 1world are falling behind. Star is really aggressive.


User currently offlineAviationMaster From Switzerland, joined Oct 1999, 2481 posts, RR: 34
Reply 4, posted (5 years 11 months 2 weeks 4 hours ago) and read 9992 times:



Quoting Sflaflight (Reply 1):
Star becoming to big and too redundant in many markets?

Not really. They're just trying to grow in markets where they've been lacking at the moment such as:

-> Mexico - ever since the departure of Mexicana
-> Central and South America - while TAM takes care of the Brazilian market, a second airline for additional coverage is needed
-> Russia - currently no Russian airline is a *A
-> Australia - a market *A has been absent since the departure of Ansett Australia

Quoting LAXintl (Reply 2):
The more choices, and connectivity the better for the flyer.

 checkmark 


User currently offlineAA737-823 From United States of America, joined Mar 2000, 5813 posts, RR: 11
Reply 5, posted (5 years 11 months 2 weeks 4 hours ago) and read 9947 times:

Well, Copa was pretty much a given, when you consider that Continental is moving to Star. They're not connected like they used to be, ownership-wise, but marketing-wise they're still very heavily involved in each other's Central American success.

User currently offlineUAL777UK From United Kingdom, joined Nov 2005, 3356 posts, RR: 1
Reply 6, posted (5 years 11 months 2 weeks 4 hours ago) and read 9933 times:

The more the merrier so far as I am concerned.

As long as there is no major overlap, I am all for more airlines to join Star.

Might we see AZ join as well if LH gets a holding in the "new" airline?


User currently offlineAirGabon From Switzerland, joined Dec 2003, 884 posts, RR: 2
Reply 7, posted (5 years 11 months 2 weeks 4 hours ago) and read 9934 times:

AV will go with SkyTeam

User currently offlineOta1 From Germany, joined Apr 2008, 399 posts, RR: 0
Reply 8, posted (5 years 11 months 2 weeks 3 hours ago) and read 9895 times:
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Quoting AirGabon (Reply 7):
AV will go with SkyTeam

Well, I wouldn't be too sure about that. No too long ago people would have (well actually they have) that JJ would join SkyTeam, not too long ago people were sure SN would join oneworld and noboy would have thought CO would jump ship to Star one year ago. In 2004 LX was on it's way to join oneworld... alliances can change and they can change even faster and more drastically if an airline not being member of an alliance yet.
AV's only partner in SkyTeam is DL while they are partnering AC in Star... if I'm not mistaken they have some kind of partnership with CA as well

And if you read in between the lines of what Albrecht said it might be AV who adressed Star and not Star who adressed AV...

Quote:
"The alliance system has been proven, especially in difficult times. We see a lot of interest to join us,"


[Edited 2008-10-08 02:02:43]

User currently offlineJetlanta From United States of America, joined Jul 2001, 3297 posts, RR: 35
Reply 9, posted (5 years 11 months 2 weeks 2 hours ago) and read 9796 times:

Quoting Ota1 (Reply 8):

Well, I wouldn't be too sure about that. No too long ago people would have (well actually they have) that JJ would join SkyTeam, not too long ago people were sure SN would join oneworld and noboy would have thought CO would jump ship to Star one year ago. In 2004 LX was on it's way to join oneworld... alliances can change and they can change even faster and more drastically if an airline not being member of an alliance yet.
AV's only partner in SkyTeam is DL while they are partnering AC in Star... if I'm not mistaken they have some kind of partnership with CA as well

And if you read in between the lines of what Albrecht said it might be AV who adressed Star and not Star who adressed AV...

Well Star isn't going to get all three of these Latin carriers. Only one.

The other two will end up in the other two alliances. I suspect COPA heads to Star and Avianca heads to SkyTeam. However, the wild card is the Avianca's Brazilian operation. If Gol/Varig continue moving toward SkyTeam, that might shut out Aviance. In which case, one might suspect they would head to oneworld, with TACA joining SkyTeam.

There are a lot of pieces to this puzzle. Keep in mind, however, that at some point there are diminishing returns for each carrier as an alliance gets bigger. While it is unquestionably good for the traveler to have a large alliance, as these partners compete more an more with themselves, they may find the benefits weakening.

I still suspect that alliances have not yet begun to find their "normal" state. The impending round of consolidation will have a huge impact. Just as AZ could move to Star, carriers in that alliance will move out if acquired by a competitor from another alliance.

In the end, Star may still be the "biggest" but it won't necessarily provide the most value to all of its members.

Its the classic small fish/big pond versus big fish/small pond scenario.

And lets not forget that an alliance is still no match for a single carrier option. When you have carriers the size of DL/NW and AF/KL and BA/IB, they are simply so big that alliances with small carriers have little impact. It is, for example, the alliances between say DL/AF/KE, AA/BA/JL/CX that drive most of the value. The impact of Finnair in oneworld, or CSA in SkyTeam or Egyptair in Star is of negligible to the big carriers.

But in the end, there is no end. The players will continue to move around and unaffiliated carriers will join up. Consider this, if SkyTeam were to add Malaysian, China Airlines, Gol/Varig, Emirates/Qatar/Etihad and another European carrier as the result of consolidation, it would effectively be right back up there in terms of actual RPM/RPK generation, if not necessarily number of carriers. Just a scenario to consider.

Star has certainly got momentum. But this game is never-ending. And in the end, all that matters is the success of the individual carriers in the alliance.

[Edited 2008-10-08 02:48:01]

User currently offlineRCS763AV From Colombia, joined Jun 2004, 4395 posts, RR: 12
Reply 10, posted (5 years 11 months 2 weeks 2 hours ago) and read 9795 times:



Quoting Ota1 (Reply 8):
AV's only partner in SkyTeam is DL while they are partnering AC in Star... if I'm not mistaken they have some kind of partnership with CA as well

And if you read in between the lines of what Albrecht said it might be AV who adressed Star and not Star who adressed AV...

AV is also partners with AF. BTW, AV and CM would never be in the same alliance. If CM stays in Sky, AV will go to Star, and the other way around. They are huge tivals, and CM owns AV's largest domestic competitor in Colombia.

AV, BTW, is one fo those codeshare bitch airlines. They go with IB, MX, TA, AC and DL.



Les escribo desde el frío de mi verde altiplano.
User currently offlineJetlanta From United States of America, joined Jul 2001, 3297 posts, RR: 35
Reply 11, posted (5 years 11 months 2 weeks 2 hours ago) and read 9769 times:



Quoting RCS763AV (Reply 10):

AV is also partners with AF. BTW, AV and CM would never be in the same alliance. If CM stays in Sky, AV will go to Star, and the other way around. They are huge tivals, and CM owns AV's largest domestic competitor in Colombia.

Yeah, you are exactly right. Both SkyTeam and Star come out well here. oneworld is probably the odd man out since AV competes too directly with AA/IB/LA.


User currently offlineAdicool From Netherlands, joined Apr 2007, 302 posts, RR: 0
Reply 12, posted (5 years 11 months 2 weeks 2 hours ago) and read 9751 times:

Didn't LH sign an agreement of understatement for further co-operation between them and TA?

User currently offlineOta1 From Germany, joined Apr 2008, 399 posts, RR: 0
Reply 13, posted (5 years 11 months 2 weeks 2 hours ago) and read 9743 times:
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Quoting RCS763AV (Reply 10):
AV is also partners with AF.

Sorry, I don't want to call you wrong, but that is not mentioned on neither AF's nor AV's websites... so what kind of partnership is this?

Quoting RCS763AV (Reply 10):
AV and CM would never be in the same alliance. If CM stays in Sky, AV will go to Star, and the other way around. They are huge tivals, and CM owns AV's largest domestic competitor in Colombia.

I know and I didn't suggest that AV, TA and CM all join star. I actually think the same way you do. All I did was to not rule out AV joinig *A at some point.... I think we might see AV and TA or TA and CM going that way... or just one of them.... well I think you know what I mean

Quoting Adicool (Reply 12):
Didn't LH sign an agreement of understatement for further co-operation between them and TA?

Yes they did...

[Edited 2008-10-08 03:04:43]

User currently offlineB742 From United Kingdom, joined Mar 2005, 3768 posts, RR: 19
Reply 14, posted (5 years 11 months 2 weeks 2 hours ago) and read 9715 times:



Quoting Adicool (Reply 12):
Didn't LH sign an agreement of understatement for further co-operation between them and TA?



Quoting Ota1 (Reply 13):
Yes they did...

LH and TA signed an MoU in May 2007 to codeshare on Domestic and International flights aswell as the use of lounges and frequent flyer programmes.

TA also has ties with UA.

Rob!  wave 


User currently offlineSumma767 From United Kingdom, joined Mar 2004, 2561 posts, RR: 6
Reply 15, posted (5 years 11 months 2 weeks 2 hours ago) and read 9715 times:

I actually think that TA and AV may well end up in the same alliance, and that could be Skyteam.
AV's sister OceanAir brasilian operations are actually very small in the country. Indeed, RG/Gol and OceanAir could do well out of cooperation in Brasil.


User currently offlineAA1818 From Trinidad and Tobago, joined Feb 2006, 3435 posts, RR: 4
Reply 16, posted (5 years 11 months 2 weeks ago) and read 9553 times:

Many here suggest that CM will end up in Star with CO. I don't think that will happen unless LH and UA drop TA. CM and TA are big competitors and their hubs are ompeting for the same connecting traffic etc- no way for both of them to end up in the same alliance.

AA1818



“The moment you doubt whether you can fly, you cease for ever to be able to do it.” J.M. Barrie (Peter Pan)
User currently offlineAvek00 From United States of America, joined Oct 2004, 4379 posts, RR: 19
Reply 17, posted (5 years 11 months 2 weeks ago) and read 9541 times:

There really is no such thing a global airline alliance becoming too big so long as all members are held to acceptable minimum quality standards and fully retain their ability to engage in bilateral/multilateral codesharing and other measures on an individual commercial basis.


Live life to the fullest.
User currently offlineAdicool From Netherlands, joined Apr 2007, 302 posts, RR: 0
Reply 18, posted (5 years 11 months 1 week 6 days 23 hours ago) and read 9465 times:

I think it will eventually be TA we will see in *A. UA and especially LH seem to have both great deal of influence in *A and considering the fact that they already codeshare respectively have signed and MoU, it seems clear that they favour TA to complement their network in Latin America.
TA pursue a multi-hub system, like LH. They would gain excess to Central America (plus Colombia and Venezuela) and the Caribbean through the hubs of SJO, SAL and GUA) and Northern South America (Ecuador, Perú) through (LIM). The networks of JJ and TA also seem to complement each other pretty well and would turn Latin America (apart from México) from a "white spot" to a multi hub spot for *A...
The only thing TA are missing are a decent domestic presence in Perú...

my bets are on TA. They seem to be the only other carrier in Latin America (apart from LA) that have a great coverage of the continent with several hubs which makes them far more attractive.
just my two cents though.
AV also seems to be a great carrier but the odds are on TA's side.


User currently offlineSJOtoLIR From Costa Rica, joined Jul 2007, 4505 posts, RR: 4
Reply 19, posted (5 years 11 months 1 week 6 days 22 hours ago) and read 9306 times:



Quoting AviationMaster (Reply 4):
-> Central and South America - while TAM takes care of the Brazilian market, a second airline for additional coverage is needed

I think so.
The participation of TAM into Star Alliance does not solve the shortage of the operations supplied by Star Alliance in Central America and the northern region of South America.




.

Quoting AA737-823 (Reply 5):
Copa was pretty much a given, when you consider that Continental is moving to Star.

However, CO divested their shares with CM in May.
The participation of CO into Star Alliance does not mean necessarily that CM will do the same.
CM holds deals with other SkyTeam airlines: KL and AM.




.

Quoting AirGabon (Reply 7):
AV will go with SkyTeam

In my view, it will happen if CM moves to Star Alliance.




.

Quoting Jetlanta (Reply 9):
one might suspect they would head to oneworld, with TACA joining SkyTeam

Their current commercial agreements are rather involved with some carriers within Star Alliance: UA and the memorandum of understanding signed last year with LH.
Both AC and US are also flying to SJO being an important hub for TA. They have not established yet any agreement with TA at this time.




.

Quoting AA1818 (Reply 16):
CM and TA are big competitors and their hubs are competing for the same connecting traffic etc- no way for both of them to end up in the same alliance.

 checkmark 




.

Quoting Adicool (Reply 18):
They would gain excess to Central America (plus Colombia and Venezuela) and the Caribbean through the hubs of SJO, SAL and GUA)

TA has rather a poor coverage in the Caribbean, being both TA SJO-HAV and TA SJO-SDQ their sole destinations in the mentioned area.
These services will be downgraded shortly with their brand new 100-seater E90s.




.

Quoting Adicool (Reply 18):
The networks of JJ and TA also seem to complement each other pretty well and would turn Latin America (apart from México) from a "white spot" to a multi hub spot for *A...

Both JJ and TA sustained in the past a commercial agreement for selected routes in South America.
Nonetheless, JJ ceased it in favour of the huge treaty between LA and JJ.




.

Quoting Adicool (Reply 18):
The only thing TA are missing are a decent domestic presence in Perú...

Rumour has it that TA will utilize some factory new E90s for the opening of domestic routes in Peru later as they're looking for Arequipa and Iquitos.
LP on behalf of LAN system has a vast domestic local coverage in Peru for the time being.

Regards.



"Goin' up to the spirit in the sky"
User currently offlineYellowtail From United States of America, joined Jun 2005, 6165 posts, RR: 2
Reply 20, posted (5 years 11 months 1 week 6 days 22 hours ago) and read 9287 times:



Quoting Ota1 (Reply 13):
think we might see AV and TA or TA and CM going that way... or just one of them.... well I think you know what I mean

Hell will freeze over first before CM and TA join the same alliance. The rivalry and the politics are too big. In many respects CM is becoming more powerful that TA and is a little better fit with LH/CO et al....their PTY hub is a perfect complement to CO at IAH

TA and AV maybe.



When in doubt, hold on to your altitude. No-one has ever collided with the sky.
User currently offlineZkojh From China, joined Sep 2004, 1696 posts, RR: 1
Reply 21, posted (5 years 11 months 1 week 6 days 21 hours ago) and read 9248 times:

S7 are ment to be joining 'Oneworld' next year, so are they now stoping that?


NZ 787-9 flying between PVG - AKL ! CAN'T WAIT!!
User currently offlineOta1 From Germany, joined Apr 2008, 399 posts, RR: 0
Reply 22, posted (5 years 11 months 1 week 6 days 21 hours ago) and read 9228 times:
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Quoting Yellowtail (Reply 20):
Hell will freeze over first before CM and TA join the same alliance. The rivalry and the politics are too big.

You're probably right.... didn't really think before writing that....


User currently offlineOta1 From Germany, joined Apr 2008, 399 posts, RR: 0
Reply 23, posted (5 years 11 months 1 week 6 days 21 hours ago) and read 9228 times:
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Quoting Zkojh (Reply 21):
S7 are ment to be joining 'Oneworld' next year, so are they now stoping that?

They have been in talks with oneworld... but AFIAK they have not reached an agreement yet...


User currently offlineCastropRauxel From Germany, joined Sep 2008, 467 posts, RR: 0
Reply 24, posted (5 years 11 months 1 week 6 days 19 hours ago) and read 9035 times:



Quoting AviationMaster (Reply 4):

Quoting Sflaflight (Reply 1):
Star becoming to big and too redundant in many markets?

Not really. They're just trying to grow in markets where they've been lacking at the moment such as:

-> Mexico - ever since the departure of Mexicana
-> Central and South America - while TAM takes care of the Brazilian market, a second airline for additional coverage is needed
-> Russia - currently no Russian airline is a *A
-> Australia - a market *A has been absent since the departure of Ansett Australia

I agree. They are just working hard to establish themselves in their weakest market of Latin america, and Russia. on that note, I don't think they care much about an Australian partner since NZ complemented by the Asian carriers gives STAR a great reach in Australia.

Quoting AA1818 (Reply 16):
Many here suggest that CM will end up in Star with CO. I don't think that will happen unless LH and UA drop TA

But why would you think STAR is so hanged up on TA? I believe CM can do just as well. it's not that TA is that much bigger - plus you have to take into consideration, that although CO sold it's shares in CM - their schedules still complement each other very well. this is an asset to STAR.

Quoting Zkojh (Reply 21):
S7 are ment to be joining 'Oneworld' next year, so are they now stoping that?

I believe OneWorld was a default; but once the most popular kid starts speaking with you, you easily forget what happened 5 minutes ago and run off to be their new best friend  Wink


25 United787 : Isn't that the idea? I would love to be able to travel almost anywhere on earth within the same alliance that sets a certain standard... But...with C
26 2travel2know : CM won't be in the same alliance as TA and/or AV. CM has planned to follow CO into Star Alliance, but if TA and/or AV already are in, I really have my
27 EddieDude : I don't see Emirates joining an alliance ever. I don't know much about Etihad's policies or business plan, but I would suspect they are not intereste
28 AA1818 : I think that despite it's closeness to CO, they should shed that and join oneworld. They would make an excellent fit to oneworld sealing Central Amer
29 Yellowtail : Only thing is that if TA is part of the alliance with CO, then TA might get upset that Co is sending more business to their rival (CM)
30 Jetlanta : As times get tougher, their business plans will change. They are not immune and they will have a TON of seats to sell.
31 SJOtoLIR : The coverage of CM is larger than the TACA system. However, most of the profitable routes between Miami and Central America are attended by TA on beh
32 CastropRauxel : Never say never... EK may prefer to stay out of an alliance for the time being, but in 5 or 10 years sown the line, I think they will become very lon
33 Post contains links SJOtoLIR : I found the source on airliners.net: http://www.airliners.net/aviation-fo...03&searchid=3989303&s=aviationweek Regards.
34 Sflaflight : Well geography wise, TA would be a better fit for Star. With Star having Canada and US (but no Mexico) TA could fill the North/Central America realm b
35 SJOtoLIR : MX SJO-GUA-MEX 3x weekly will be the only feasible choice within Central America considering that Mexicana enters to OneWorld next year. MX, AA and I
36 LipeGIG : I also agree that CM, because of CO, will be a possible future Star addition. But concerning to SkyTeam, lets wait and see as AF will shortly announce
37 AF022 : I'm always surprised that Ethiopian's name doesn't come up when STAR candidates are discussed. They have the best network in Africa.
38 Stylo777 : one of TA main hub in South America is LIM from which they serve almost every important destinations within the continent. The main problem here is t
39 Ota1 : Actually there recently was an interview with ET's CFO in German aviation magazine Aero International... He said he thought that ET would be ready to
40 SJOtoLIR : MVD is only possible as TA CCS-LIM and then [TA LIM-MVD or TA LIM-ASU-MVD soon]. TA LIM-EZE and back is the sole route on TA in Argentina. However, t
41 Aer : Last I checked, the MOU that was signed hasn't really moved forward at all (and it's been a year). However I guess that the service that we would lik
42 SJOtoLIR : That's correct. Two MOUs were simultaneously signed last year in Lima: LH-JJ and LH-TA. Speaking about the results of the LH-JJ treaty, members of bo
43 Abrelosojos : = That was pre Air Union collapse. = Hehe ... I know what you are talking about . Saludos, A.
44 Post contains links Ota1 : I always thought it was strange that we haven't seen any development for a long time but finally it seems like they are actually going ahead: I have
45 RCS763AV : It is on the websites. FF mileage accrual/redemption. And AV and CM. Would that be possible? I wouldn't think CO would allow CM to stay in Onepass un
46 Ota1 : Right you are... must have overseen it....thanks
47 UN_B732 : What about UN? I always thought they were bound for Star, with the BD cooperation and the rumors I had heard. -A
48 Ota1 : I thought so, too. However it seems like Star is rather looking for carriers with a larger domestic coverage. UN has a very good international covera
49 CastropRauxel : That's true. STAR don't need the international coverage; 13 STAR members are already serving Moscow alone, and many fly to other major cities in Russ
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