Hardiwv From Brazil, joined Oct 2004, 8780 posts, RR: 52 Posted (4 years 7 months 2 weeks 4 days 15 hours ago) and read 8194 times:
In the occasion of the ceremony of TAM membership in Star Alliance in Sao Paulo yesterday, the VP of Turkish Airways has announced that TK will start flying IST-DKR-GRU 3 x week by the end of 2009. TK would have 5th freedom rights between DKR and GRU.
This is yet another new airline in GRU, which is now Star hub for South America. TK will be the 8th Star airline operating in GRU after LH, LX, AC, SA)">UA, SA, TP and TAM.
Behramjee From Canada, joined Aug 2003, 4446 posts, RR: 43 Reply 2, posted (4 years 7 months 2 weeks 4 days 13 hours ago) and read 8075 times:
Quoting Hardiwv (Thread starter): the VP of Turkish Airways has announced that TK will start flying IST-DKR-GRU 3 x week by the end of 2009. TK would have 5th freedom rights between DKR and GRU.
using an A 332 or A 343?
3 weekly frequencies is too little when EK is daily as are all the major EU carriers. They have to ensure that KIX, BKK and PEK/PVG connect in both directions via IST to make the flight have any chance of succeeding.
UPPERDECKFAN From Spain, joined Jun 2007, 992 posts, RR: 1 Reply 5, posted (4 years 7 months 2 weeks 4 days 11 hours ago) and read 7928 times:
Quoting Behramjee (Reply 2): 3 weekly frequencies is too little when EK is daily as are all the major EU carriers. They have to ensure that KIX, BKK and PEK/PVG connect in both directions via IST to make the flight have any chance of succeeding.
Difficult to succeed yields wise since I highly doubt premium pax will rather fly GRU-Asia on a 2 stop itinerary through DKR & IST against the multiple one stop options (LH/AF/KL/BA/EK)
Dellatorre From Brazil, joined May 2000, 1084 posts, RR: 2 Reply 9, posted (4 years 7 months 2 weeks 4 days 9 hours ago) and read 7765 times:
This flight will be a money loser!!! Unless TK finds an incredible niche between Brazil and Senegal, this flight is doomed!! Who will want to take such flight to go anywhere? Better use European carriers and Emirates. Too much competition reagarding connections.
If the flight was non-stop they might have a chance, but otherwise it will be just a waste!!!
Hardiwv From Brazil, joined Oct 2004, 8780 posts, RR: 52 Reply 12, posted (4 years 7 months 2 weeks 4 days 8 hours ago) and read 7725 times:
Quoting RAFVC10 (Reply 7): About flights between Asia and South America... which success has the MH flight from KUL to EZE?
MH is certainly not doing well on their operation KUL-JNB-CPT-EZE B747. MH is extremely mismanaged although they offer and excellent product.
On the other hand, JAL NRT-JFK-GRU and KE ICN-LAX-GRU both show very good performance. EK daily DXB-GRU nonstop is a resound success and there are strong indications on a second daily DXB-GRU in 2009.
Quoting A342 (Reply 10): They can, but even high gross weight A343s would take payload restrictions on the westbound leg. I guess they really want absolute maximum cargo revenues.
Cargo could be the profit side of this flight. Otherwise, I agree, it would be difficult for the flight to work.
Quoting PanAm747 (Reply 11): Congrats to all involved, but especially Dakar!! DKR is well placed to become a place of great connectivity to the rest of Africa.
What airline could TK rely on to connect pax in DKR? Again, for the flight to become more successful we would need it to operate via LAD, JNB or LOS, then perhaps it could work better. There is no doubt that we need more connections between Brazil and Africa.
PanAm747 From United States of America, joined Feb 2004, 4242 posts, RR: 10 Reply 13, posted (4 years 7 months 2 weeks 4 days 6 hours ago) and read 7618 times:
Quote: What airline could TK rely on to connect pax in DKR? Again, for the flight to become more successful we would need it to operate via LAD, JNB or LOS, then perhaps it could work better. There is no doubt that we need more connections between Brazil and Africa.
Virgin Nigeria, Ghana International (what is the name of their flag carrier now?), Senegal Air, Arik Air, Bellview, South African, TAAG...
Someone help me out with some others.
Dakar needs to tear down their old terminal building and create a modern facility suitable for connections with the requisite safety of necessary security. As alliances expand, and travel to/from Africa increases, the possibility of - gulp!! - routing a connection through alliance airlines at DKR becomes an ever-increasing possibility. Delta comes to mind with JFK-DKR-CPT, ATL-DKR-JNB, and the proposed USA-DKR-NBO service. Route the passengers to DKR and then transfer them to the appropriate destination.
It might not be possible at the moment, but it is certainly feasible.
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LAXintl From United States of America, joined May 2000, 22055 posts, RR: 51 Reply 14, posted (4 years 7 months 2 weeks 4 days 6 hours ago) and read 7610 times:
People have confused the reasons for this long time in the making flight.
Firstly, TK is not running the service focused on carrying GRU pax via IST hub across the Middle East or even Asia, but instead for Turks vacationing in Brazil.
There has been a very strong upswing on Turks travelling to South America in the last few years with them flying on many European carriers like AF, LH, TP, IB.
Additionaly TK has so far done much better then expected with other Africa services such as LOS and believe it can carry a good deal of West Africa passengers across the network one-stop via IST.
The entry of TAM to Star only further potentialy benefits things offering domestic and regional connections.
Lastly remember TK is quite a profitable airline. Even if this flight were to loose money initialy on its own, the network benefits of added feed and connectivity likely makes it worthwile in itself.
From the desert to the sea, to all of Southern California
JetSetter629 From United States of America, joined Nov 2007, 410 posts, RR: 0 Reply 16, posted (4 years 7 months 2 weeks 4 days 2 hours ago) and read 7492 times:
Why wouldn't they route the flight IST-LOS-GRU? They already serve LOS and I'm sure there would be premium traffic because of oil? Is it because Nigeria is very difficult to get 5th Freedom rights??? That would be my guess but seems like the most logical route instead of opening a new station...and in particular DKR...
Hardiwv From Brazil, joined Oct 2004, 8780 posts, RR: 52 Reply 17, posted (4 years 7 months 2 weeks 3 days 21 hours ago) and read 7402 times:
Quoting JetSetter629 (Reply 16): Why wouldn't they route the flight IST-LOS-GRU? They already serve LOS and I'm sure there would be premium traffic because of oil? Is it because Nigeria is very difficult to get 5th Freedom rights??? That would be my guess but seems like the most logical route instead of opening a new station...and in particular DKR...
The bilateral Brazil-Turkey allows for 7 weekly flights with designated 5th freedom rights in Africa. I also agree that LOS would be a better stopover as compared to DKR. It would also reinforce TK current flight to LOS and there is no doubt that demand LOS-Brazil is much higher than DKR-Brazil.
Hardiwv From Brazil, joined Oct 2004, 8780 posts, RR: 52 Reply 19, posted (4 years 7 months 2 weeks 3 days 20 hours ago) and read 7388 times:
Quoting MAH4546 (Reply 18): Though there is also no doubt that corrupt Nigerian authorities would never give TK local traffic, so that point is, unfortunately, moot.
You are totally correct. And you cannot expect anything better regarding the even more corrupt Angolan authorities concerning traffic via LAD. If the Angolan authorities allow TK to operate via LAD then TK must be prepared for a substantive amount in bribes...plus plenty of free tickets to Angolans willing to travel to Brazil...the way TAAG works in Angolan...
If TK wants to avoid any problem DKR seems a decent stop-over. Perhaps TK could also consider ACC as Ghana has a very well managed economy and with growing links with Brazil. DL also operates ACC with success. I wonder why DL flies to DKR, ACC and hasn't taken the trouble to land in LAD!!!
Hardiwv From Brazil, joined Oct 2004, 8780 posts, RR: 52 Reply 22, posted (4 years 7 months 2 weeks 3 days 15 hours ago) and read 7191 times:
Quoting LipeGIG (Reply 21): Not so huge, and with two stops required, even with a huge arabian community out of São Paulo and Rio de Janeiro, they can't compete against EK and European Carriers.
I am very sceptical about this route. I agree that TK operating in GRU via DKR does not look very promissing. Lets not forget that CA could not manage the 2 weekly PEK-MAD-GRU. Nowadays, in order to capture market in GRU, you need daily operation and nonstop flights. KE is doing well ICN-LAX-GRU 3 x week because LAX has strong demand from GRU. DKR will certainly not have the same level of demand.
At least we would have another option for flights between Brazil and Africa and this is welcome.
LipeGIG From Brazil, joined May 2005, 11201 posts, RR: 61 Reply 24, posted (4 years 7 months 2 weeks 3 days 7 hours ago) and read 7025 times:
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Quoting Hardiwv (Reply 22): I am very sceptical about this route. I agree that TK operating in GRU via DKR does not look very promissing. Lets not forget that CA could not manage the 2 weekly PEK-MAD-GRU. Nowadays, in order to capture market in GRU, you need daily operation and nonstop flights. KE is doing well ICN-LAX-GRU 3 x week because LAX has strong demand from GRU. DKR will certainly not have the same level of demand.
DKR is a good market for cargo, but alone it couldn't sustain a flight. As you mentioned, any flight with stops nowadays need to rely on a strong market for each segment, good equipment and frequencies.
New York + Rio de Janeiro = One of the best combinations !
25 UPPERDECKFAN: Very good point, CA failed to the strong competition on GRU-MAD by IB/JJ, KE found a very likely scenario as the sole player on LAX-GRU so let's see
26 Hardiwv: I agree and DKR by no means has strong business links with Brazil. I am very sceptical about this route. Correct. If JJ operates LAX daily things wou
27 Behramjee: Turkish Airlines will be launching new twice weekly flights from its Istanbul hub to GRU-Sao Paulo, Brazil via DKR-Dakar, Senegal using an Airbus A 34
28 Lobster: Wrong. Just because two countries are oil producers doesn't mean there is a lot of traffic between the two. Significant traffic exists only between o
29 MAH4546: Not a mistake. No traffic rights right now. Though I'm sure they will attempt to get them.
30 Hardiwv: Thanks for officiating the news. In a matter of months GRU got two additional new airlines: MX and now TK. It is amazing to see the market expand eve
31 LipeGIG: Probably as they will be selling IST-DKR and DKR-IST will represent an open seat on a 7-8 hours flight. And without cargo rights also.. i don't expec
32 LAXintl: Turkey does have beyond traffic rights from Senegal to Brazil per its Air Services Agreement with Senegal. http://www.shgm.gov.tr/haberhtm/news18.htm
33 Hardiwv: I expect TK to get full rights for DKR-GRU in due course. You may note that we are about 5 months away from the first flight. I also think TK will ge
34 TurkishWings: I am wondering how they will schedule the crew. For example, normally airlines who fly Europe-JNB-CPT have their crew stay in JNB but TK does not do t
35 Hardiwv: Thnaks for this valuable information. It is great to see TK landing in Brazil and therefore paving the way for more business between the two countrie
36 Hardiwv: In fact, according to the link the bilateral Turkey-Senegal allows for traffic rights. As I said, it will be a matter of time for TK to get the full
37 Hardiwv: As I side note, I just noted that TK has doubled its flights to India. TK is now operating now daily IST-DEL and IST-BOM. Interesting development. It
38 LipeGIG: If their focus is tourism they should focus on GIG or Northeast. Probably more on LH/LX giving Star partnership which explains their data base to sho
39 TurkishWings: In March last year, I flew to LIS from IST on TK. The plane was about 75% full and about 70% of them transferred to flights to Brazil on TP. We were
40 LipeGIG: Correction: Or TAP ! At LIS they will continue to have access to all touristic destinations in Brazil.
41 Behramjee: On Sabre, TK's increase to India is not showing to either city for this winter nor next summer!!! So where did u get this information from?
42 Hardiwv: Sao Paulo is Brazil's no. 3 leisure destination, no. 1 business destination, and no 1 events/meetings/conferences destination. Plus you can make conn
43 LipeGIG: I'm not unhappy, i just mentioned about the leisure market. Which could mean leisure isn't their focus. If they got the rights...
44 Hardiwv: I am sure they will balance the flight with leisure and business, but the latter always prevails. I also mentioned the importance of hub and the conn
45 LipeGIG: I have doubts about the power of business market as there is no strong trade relation between the two countries. Brazil exports US$ 95 million and im
46 TKfan: Where did you get those numbers??? Guess its just for September and not Jan-Sep. Turkeys exports to Brazil Jan-Aug 2008 216,4 Million US$ Turkeys imp
47 LipeGIG: From Brazilian Foreign Trade Ministry. But you're right, i got numbers for just one month and not for the nine months as i mentioned.[Edited 2008-10-2
48 MaverickM11: I may have missed it, but why can't they do ISTGRU nonstop? I'd be more optimistic about that than a one stop over DKR.
49 Hardiwv: And I am sure that TK flight to GRU will boost trade between the two countries even further. There is a direct link between air service and trade and
50 MaverickM11: I'd rather see them split, as I think GRUIST would be killer, and perhaps DKRIST on a 319, although I think there are better African markets for TK t
51 DCAjet: Can you clarify the source you are using to make that statement? FYI, it is wrong (or outdated) on both counts - MH being poorly managed (it was - no
52 Hardiwv: Maybe indeed I am outdated on this matter. I know for sure that MH is among the very best airlines in the world, but until some time ago it was deepl
53 MaverickM11: I find it hard to believe that it does well, seeing as there are so many daily one stop connections between Southeast Asia and Latin America that a t
54 MAH4546: Though it's the only link between Argentina and South Africa. I bet it does okay based just on local Argentina-South Africa traffic.
55 Hardiwv: Apparently I was right. I just checked and KUL-JNB-CPT-EZE is indeed a loss making route and apparently is only kept in MH network because of "pretig
56 LipeGIG: Those are the largest players with import/exports bigger than US$ 10 million. 2007 Largest Exporters Vale Fiat Tecumseh Brazil MBR (Vale Group) Amcel
57 Hardiwv: Thanks for the impressive list which shows again the consolidating business between Turkey and Brazil. The "diversified" customer base of the Brazilia
58 LAXintl: Two primary reasons. 1) Its not felt a nonstop would be commercialy viable. DKR is estimated to provide 30-40% of the load. So far TKs growing Africa
59 TKfan: Thanks for the listing. Indeed impressive list showing the healthy nature of the trade. And as Hardiwv said, the Airlink will definately boost the ec
60 Hardiwv: Interesting enough, Brazil is Senegal's 3rd most important trade partner, ranking as no. 3 after France and Nigeria with a total of USD150 million in
61 MaverickM11: They'll get killed by nonstops over Europe or DXB. I'll bet a dollar the flight goes nonstop very soon. I'm also pretty bullish on a DKRGRU link, or
62 C010T3: Impossible it is not, since G3 got Aloha's ETOPS certified 737s. The main problem would be the crew.[Edited 2008-10-24 07:01:47]
63 LipeGIG: Petrobras has a very extensive operation with drillings or activities going on in Angola, Senegal, Venezuela, Mexico, Ecuador, Mozambique, Colombia,
64 Hardiwv: " target=_blank>http://www2.petrobras.com.br/ri/port...a.htm Indeed, Lipe. In addition to Petrobras, Odebrecht also got major contracts in Senegal an
65 LipeGIG: Yes, Brazil's three big players on international operations in terms of capital: 1) Petrobras 2) Vale 3) Odebrecht In terms of number of employees (e
66 Hardiwv: Correction: Sierra Leone Thanks for the interesting list. Brazilian companies are increasingly investing abroad in non-traditional markets hence the
67 LipeGIG: Thanks for your short report, very interesting. I just talked with one Petrobras Mgr responsible for all off-shore operations and he mentioned that t
68 Hardiwv: This is a very important point. However, TK would certainly not represent any problem as it is a top quality airline, but some connections available
69 LipeGIG: Yes, TK isn't a problem, but you shall need DKR-LAD for example and flights thru DKR will be available only 2x weekly (which is also a problem giving