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New DL Small Hub Cuts, Fleet Realignment, Etc  
User currently offlineCentrair From Japan, joined Jan 2005, 3598 posts, RR: 20
Posted (5 years 11 months 4 weeks 1 day ago) and read 18474 times:

Goodbye Northwest: And then there were five

The article is mostly about the approval of the DL/NW merger by the board. But there were a few sections that caught my attention.

The fate of the hubs

Quote:
Despite Delta's party line, it seems inevitable that Northwest's smaller Memphis hub and Delta's Cincinnati hub, which operate in the shadow of much larger hubs at Atlanta and Detroit respectively, will be downsized. When airlines reduce capacity, other airlines often move in to replace that lost capacity. But with record high oil prices, most airline expansion plans have been trimmed or shelved altogether, so it is unlikely that much of the lost capacity will be replaced by existing airlines or new entrants. For business travelers dependent on frequent air service at Cincinnati or Memphis, the Delta-Northwest merger may prove problematic.

Eliminating smaller regional jets

Quote:
"We are in the process of rationalizing across both our commuter network and our regional carrier network," he told me. With well over half of Delta's Cincinnati operation flown aboard RJs, the airline has already reduced capacity by 25% at that hub. Anderson says RJ flying must be "right sized," which means additional capacity cuts are likely for hubs in Cincinnati, Memphis and Salt Lake City, where RJs dominate. Besides the loss of service at these smaller hubs, displaced connecting passengers will be rerouted over the more congested hubs in Atlanta, Detroit or Minneapolis.

So it sounds like MEM, CVG and SLC will see some major cuts or MEM and CVG will be going Bye Bye.

The article also discusses International Realignment and the fleet incompatibilities.
This quote stood out here:

Quote:
It is also highly likely the new Delta Air Lines will move capacity on many of Northwest's former Pacific routes to New York and Atlanta. For corporations and business travelers, winners and losers depend on geography.


[Edited 2008-10-08 15:49:00]


Yes...I am not a KIX fan. Let's Japanese Aviation!
175 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently onlineLAXdude1023 From India, joined Sep 2006, 7642 posts, RR: 25
Reply 1, posted (5 years 11 months 4 weeks 1 day ago) and read 18455 times:

Ohh...say it aint so!!!  Silly

No surprises here.



Stewed...Lewd...Crude...Irreverent...Belligerent
User currently onlineOA412 From United States of America, joined Dec 2000, 5295 posts, RR: 25
Reply 2, posted (5 years 11 months 4 weeks 1 day ago) and read 18408 times:



Quoting Centrair (Thread starter):
So it sounds like MEM, CVG and SLC will see some major cuts or MEM and CVG will be going Bye Bye.

While most are in agreement that MEM and CVG will see dramatic cuts, I don't think you will see anything major at SLC when you consider that, as of now, SLC will be DL/NW's main Western hub.



Hughes Airwest - Top Banana In The West
User currently offlineAWACSooner From United States of America, joined Jan 2008, 1919 posts, RR: 1
Reply 3, posted (5 years 11 months 4 weeks 1 day ago) and read 18406 times:

MEM and CVG are duh's...but cutting SLC service is plain dumb.

User currently offlineCentrair From Japan, joined Jan 2005, 3598 posts, RR: 20
Reply 4, posted (5 years 11 months 4 weeks 22 hours ago) and read 18069 times:



Quoting OA412 (Reply 2):
SLC will be DL/NW's main Western hub.

But that makes me really wonder.
SEA is not a "HUB" in the traditional term but certainly has a lot of NW traffic. Plus LAX could see an increase.

According to the article the number of RJ flights at SLC would be slashed.



Yes...I am not a KIX fan. Let's Japanese Aviation!
User currently offlineSANFan From United States of America, joined Aug 2006, 5440 posts, RR: 12
Reply 5, posted (5 years 11 months 4 weeks 22 hours ago) and read 18009 times:



Quoting Centrair (Reply 4):
SEA is not a "HUB" in the traditional term but certainly has a lot of NW traffic. Plus LAX could see an increase.

But the article says:

Quoting Centrair (Thread starter):
It is also highly likely the new Delta Air Lines will move capacity on many of Northwest's former Pacific routes to New York and Atlanta

That seems to be pretty clear to me.

Quoting Centrair (Reply 4):
According to the article the number of RJ flights at SLC would be slashed.

Right; I would think they will cut the small jets, and therefore, total op's out of SLC, and probably replace some of the loss with mainline service. I.E., many of the west coast stations have lots of RJs to SLC so I would expect to see a few less flights but on larger a/c.

And has been said already on this thread, "Oh my! MEM and CVG might lose flights!!" Such a shock... (But it looks like MSP remains the big "?")

bb


User currently onlineLAXdude1023 From India, joined Sep 2006, 7642 posts, RR: 25
Reply 6, posted (5 years 11 months 4 weeks 22 hours ago) and read 17972 times:



Quoting SANFan (Reply 5):
Right; I would think they will cut the small jets, and therefore, total op's out of SLC, and probably replace some of the loss with mainline service. I.E., many of the west coast stations have lots of RJs to SLC so I would expect to see a few less flights but on larger a/c.

Im in the camp that thinks that if DL/NW does anything to SLC, they should upgrade it. They have a valuble mountain hub there.

I wonder what will happen to the European routes from CVG and MEM.



Stewed...Lewd...Crude...Irreverent...Belligerent
User currently offlineWorldTraveler From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 7, posted (5 years 11 months 4 weeks 22 hours ago) and read 17909 times:

It doesn't take too long to realize the author has no idea what he is talking about.

he says that DL and NW have "higher cost structures than many competitors" which is far from true. DL and NW are tied for having the lowest CASM among the network competitors. Even among LFCs, DL compares very favorably against its primary rival FL.

he says that DL will move capacity over the Pacific to DL's hubs and implies that such a move would harm NW communities. DL's 777s are just as capable if not more so than NW's aircraft and will be used to add MORE, not LESS routes. NW itself realized 5 years ago that funnelling all of itsAsian traffic through NRT doesn't work. DL has the right equipment to put that traffic where it needs to go - not double connecting via the US and NRT.

Finally, he takes the a.net assumption that because AA killed hubs, DL will also. There is absolutely no basis for his assertion. AA has killed more airlines and more hubs than any other ailine in the history of aviation.

BTW, I blew through my 5000th post today. Happy a.netting to us all!


User currently offlineSANFan From United States of America, joined Aug 2006, 5440 posts, RR: 12
Reply 8, posted (5 years 11 months 4 weeks 22 hours ago) and read 17872 times:



Quoting LAXdude1023 (Reply 6):
Im in the camp that thinks that if DL/NW does anything to SLC, they should upgrade it. They have a valuble mountain hub there.

I believe DL has space issues already at SLC don't they? Seems to me there have been some discussions in the last few months about airport expansion there, with nothing decided yet. Therefore, considering gate shortages and the cost of RJs these days, it seems logical to think we will see more mainline service and fewer small jets, resulting in more seats and fewer op's.

I do agree that SLC is the perfect location for a western hub and ultimately, I would expect expansion there by Delta, including some of that Pacific service, perhaps in lieu of a west coast gateway. That assumes the runway, climate and fleet situations allow such service.

bb


User currently offlineCIDflyer From United States of America, joined Apr 2005, 2313 posts, RR: 3
Reply 9, posted (5 years 11 months 4 weeks 22 hours ago) and read 17867 times:

the article is really only speculative of what will happen, nothing in there I haven't already seen on this forum at one point or another. I don't think you can really compare this to US/America West. I think DL/NW will do fine.

User currently offlineJkudall From United States of America, joined Mar 2004, 615 posts, RR: 1
Reply 10, posted (5 years 11 months 4 weeks 20 hours ago) and read 17617 times:

It should be noted this is an article by USA Today.

'Nuff said.


User currently offlineSESGDL From United States of America, joined Jan 2001, 3489 posts, RR: 10
Reply 11, posted (5 years 11 months 4 weeks 20 hours ago) and read 17579 times:



Quoting SANFan (Reply 5):
And has been said already on this thread, "Oh my! MEM and CVG might lose flights!!" Such a shock... (But it looks like MSP remains the big "?")

MSP is NW's largest mainline hub, I doubt that MSP would suddenly be slashed, it's a higher yield market than DTW and has equal O&D despite the city being roughly 80% of the size.

Jeremy


User currently offlineGte439u From Canada, joined Nov 2003, 361 posts, RR: 1
Reply 12, posted (5 years 11 months 4 weeks 19 hours ago) and read 17546 times:



Quoting SANFan (Reply 5):
And has been said already on this thread, "Oh my! MEM and CVG might lose flights!!" Such a shock... (But it looks like MSP remains the big "?")

I would not be so sure that MEM will see significant cuts or an entire loss of the hub. Michael Boyd, an airline consultant who is frequently correct, argues that MEM will provide DL with a good hub in the southern US to relieve ATL.

Read his blog's Sept. 29, 2008 entry.

http://www.aviationplanning.com/asrc1.htm


User currently offlineCentrair From Japan, joined Jan 2005, 3598 posts, RR: 20
Reply 13, posted (5 years 11 months 4 weeks 19 hours ago) and read 17482 times:

So would the SEA "Focus-Non-HUB" be a problem for SLC?
And would a rebuilding of LAX as an internationa/domestic west coast HUB cause problems for SLC and SEA?

DL would have LAX, SLC and SEA all in one region.
SEA having ICN, NRT, PEK, AMS, and CDG all on KE, NW or AF.
LAX having NRT, ICN, CDG and AMS on NW, KL, AF and KE.

What does SLC have that is so great for Skyteam and the merged NW/DL over say SEA which is only 598nm away?

Could we see a whole new HUB/Focus concept from the new DL?

Maybe a Primary HUBs, Secondary HUBs and Focus cities.

Primary HUBs would have the majority international and domestic connections.
Secondary HUBs would have limited international service to maybe AMS, CDG, and maybe NRT or ICN.
Focus cities would provide service to all hubs and popular destinations within the US, maybe Canada and Mexico.

Wow now wouldn't that be expensive to operate? Not to mention would be a lot of cities.



Yes...I am not a KIX fan. Let's Japanese Aviation!
User currently offlineJkudall From United States of America, joined Mar 2004, 615 posts, RR: 1
Reply 14, posted (5 years 11 months 4 weeks 19 hours ago) and read 17414 times:



Quoting Centrair (Reply 13):
So would the SEA "Focus-Non-HUB" be a problem for SLC?

No, it won't.

Quoting Centrair (Reply 13):
What does SLC have that is so great for Skyteam and the merged NW/DL over say SEA which is only 598nm away?

Location, location, location. SLC is in a much more ideal location geographically (for the western U.S.) for hub and spoke operations.

Additionally, SLC has more gates available to DL, more facilities, the large skywest operation, good and loyal employees, and even more loyal customers. They can run a much larger operation in SLC at a much lower cost, at an airport which can better handle large amounts of traffic simultaneously without ATC delays. DL will have many more options available to them in SLC than they would in SEA or LAX for that matter. DL has a generally smooth running, low cost operation in SLC. You have great weather for the large majority of the year which translates to on-time operations (SLC is the number one on-time airport in the country) and thus have much lower expenses due to irregular operations.

It would cost too much to move something that isn't broke (SLC hub) to SEA which has no cost benefit, no additional gate space, more competition, and an airport which sees a lot of delays due to the airport's inability to handle traffic even on clear days.

LAX has been tried a couple times, and hasn't really worked for DL. It would also have many of the same "cons" as SEA if they wanted to establish something big there.

I think LAX and SEA will continue to see a significant presence but they won't be large hubs.


User currently offlineLambert747 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 15, posted (5 years 11 months 4 weeks 18 hours ago) and read 17374 times:



Quoting AWACSooner (Reply 3):
MEM and CVG are duh's...but cutting SLC service is plain dumb.

It has been discussed that CVG has the proven O/D to sustain the TATL traffic, at least the majority of it from the market.

Quoting Centrair (Reply 4):
Plus LAX could see an increase.

LAX will not see any meaningful increase until at the very least 2010.

Quoting Centrair (Reply 4):
According to the article the number of RJ flights at SLC would be slashed.

The CRJ flying will be slashed and multiple flights combined into one on mainline aircraft where at all possible the conversion can take place.

Quoting LAXdude1023 (Reply 6):
Im in the camp that thinks that if DL/NW does anything to SLC, they should upgrade it. They have a valuble mountain hub there.

It is a great location for a hub, but does indeed suffer from a lack of higher yielding business traffic. That is the exact traffic that NW is going after in SEA, and DL is going after in LAX. However a decision will have to be made. That decision will be to focus on SLC, SEA, and LAX long-term as the DL Western Hub, that is the DL Western Hub that can sustain TPac service on DL metal.

Quoting SESGDL (Reply 11):
MSP is NW's largest mainline hub, I doubt that MSP would suddenly be slashed, it's a higher yield market than DTW and has equal O&D despite the city being roughly 80% of the size.

MSP is the highest O/D market in the NW system. It maintains some of the most, of not the most valuable contract, that is business contract flying in the NW system. DTW is an excellent hub but it massively reliant as a connecting hub rather than an O/D market. MEM is the stepchild living in fear of Ma Ma Atlanta.

Quoting LAXdude1023 (Reply 6):
I wonder what will happen to the European routes from CVG and MEM.

MEM-AMS is going to probably be one of the first TATL route reductions in the merged airline. Instead MEM will be used as a reliever to ATL with East - West traffic with very, very little international traffic including Mexico. The resources are put to much better use elsewhere in the merged NW-DL system.

Quoting Centrair (Reply 13):
So would the SEA "Focus-Non-HUB" be a problem for SLC?

It more than likely will for at least the interim. There are only two viable routes TPac from the SLC market and they are both connection reliant on the SLC end. SLC does not have the demand for service to Asia from a O/D standpoint. SEA is much, much better positioned and has a much, much stronger natural demand for Asian service than SLC ever will.

Quoting Centrair (Reply 13):
SEA having ICN, NRT, PEK, AMS, and CDG all on KE, NW or AF.

SEA as has been discussed may very well see HKG and ICN added on NW-DL metal in the next year or two.


User currently offlineSlcDeltaRUmd11 From United States of America, joined Jan 2004, 3476 posts, RR: 0
Reply 16, posted (5 years 11 months 4 weeks 18 hours ago) and read 17191 times:

How unrealistic are people on this board?

Delta is not going to re-hub LAX anytime soon. The last build up was a total failure and delta lost tons of money, AGAIN. This isnt the first time they have cancelled LAX from the schedules they cant make money their internationally or domestically! both have been tried more than once. Its not gonna happen. DL would not have cancelled almost every single flight if it was a failure. Even some money producing routes were cut because it was a pull out and run from the market. Look at what remains at LAX compared to a year ago, hub flights.

SEA will never be a large delta hub. It is a horrible geographical location for domestic connections and will never be more than a large o&d city. DL has no interest in making SEA a hub nor are they in any position financially to do so. The shareholders would go crazy, delta does not have the money to do this. DL needs to reduce frequencies not make more domestic ones!

With fuel prices so high the NRT hub is even more valuable for Asian connections! Delta is not going to launch a massive SEA and LAX pacific route service. Newsflash DL did this out of LAX and PDX and every single route lost money, hence we see none today


User currently offlineJkudall From United States of America, joined Mar 2004, 615 posts, RR: 1
Reply 17, posted (5 years 11 months 4 weeks 18 hours ago) and read 17182 times:

Quoting Lambert747 (Reply 15):
It more than likely will for at least the interim. There are only two viable routes TPac from the SLC market and they are both connection reliant on the SLC end. SLC does not have the demand for service to Asia from a O/D standpoint. SEA is much, much better positioned and has a much, much stronger natural demand for Asian service than SLC ever will.

This comes up a lot where someone will say SLC can't support a flight to somewhere but low and behold, they do it just fine. For example, several years ago when people were speculating about DL flying SLC-HNL. People thought that was a crazy idea. 6 years (+ or -) later, it is going strong and is one of the most successful routes out of SLC, and has the highest load factor of any DL flight to Hawaii. Then came time when people were saying SLC could never support nonstops to Europe. Well, now we do and aside of the some weight restriction problems, it seems to be doing pretty well with full, oversold flights and all. A switch to a different aircraft type (perhaps the A-330) will likely be in order since it is more capable for this trip.

I agree with you that SEA has much greater ties to Asia than SLC has or ever will. But I think some people are overlooking the fact that there is a good amonut of O/D demand between SLC and Asia as well. Of course, not nearly as much as SEA but DL can easily offset it with the people who are already connecting in SLC. The SLC O/D demad is getting bigger as well. The SLC area has seen a tremendous population increase in recent years (SLC airport is the closest commercial airport for a population of almost 3 million living in and around the wasatch front) and the high-tech workforce in SLC and high-tech companies in the SLC area do a lot of business in Asia and vice-versa. So I think some people underestemate the potential SLC has. It is one of the few locations in the country maintaining a relatively strong economy during this recession.

My point is, SLC easily serves as a good niche for DL and I don't think anyone is seriously worried about it's status as a hub once the merger happens. Utah and Salt Lake will bend over backwards to keep them here if worse comes to worse.

People are also still failing to see that SEA doesn't exactly have a whole lot of gate space left to support large banks of flights.

So, I'll reiterate my opinion. I think
User currently offlineRwSEA From Netherlands, joined Jan 2005, 3105 posts, RR: 2
Reply 18, posted (5 years 11 months 4 weeks 17 hours ago) and read 17091 times:



Quoting Jkudall (Reply 14):
It would cost too much to move something that isn't broke (SLC hub) to SEA which has no cost benefit, no additional gate space, more competition, and an airport which sees a lot of delays due to the airport's inability to handle traffic even on clear days.

SEA does not have a lot of delays. It is not a delay-prone airport.

Quoting Jkudall (Reply 17):
People are also still failing to see that SEA doesn't exactly have a whole lot of gate space left to support large banks of flights.

So, I'll reiterate my opinion. I think SEA will remain mostly unchanged post merger. Thats just my opinion. We'll have to wait until the actual merger deal is signed and done to get the real news.

You might be right, but NW has done extraordinarily well at SEA given that it's not a hub. There has to be a reason that they chose SEA for their first mainland-PEK service, as well as using one of their coveted LHR slots there. Someone at NW sees some potential.


User currently offlineJkudall From United States of America, joined Mar 2004, 615 posts, RR: 1
Reply 19, posted (5 years 11 months 4 weeks 17 hours ago) and read 16985 times:

Quoting RwSEA (Reply 18):
SEA does not have a lot of delays. It is not a delay-prone airport.

Sorry, I wasn't trying to portray SEA as an airport like JFK or LGA. I didn't mean to do that. I was just pointing out you have hub airport (SLC) with over 1100 take-offs and landings per day and have an on time percentage on average anywhere from 84-90 % with very few days of irregular operations due to weather, you should consider it as a good place to set up shop. Obviously not just for that reason, but it is a good plus. It saves money.

If DL for some reason wanted to start a hub in SEA (I've already mentioned the logistical challenges), but if they hypothetically wanted to do it, you would be saturating an already busy chunk of airspace and an airport not as well suited for an influx of more flights all at once. SEA does a great job with what they have already, but adding more to the mix would be tricky.

I have nothing against SEA at all. I think it would be awesome to have a bigger presence there. But I just don't think DL is looking at making it any bigger than it already is. I think the current nw asian flights should stay.

[Edited 2008-10-08 22:35:10]

User currently offlineAtlanta From United States of America, joined Jun 2008, 473 posts, RR: 1
Reply 20, posted (5 years 11 months 4 weeks 12 hours ago) and read 16485 times:



Quoting AWACSooner (Reply 3):
but cutting SLC service is plain dumb

I thought SLC was high yield  confused 

Atlanta



Welcome To The New Delta- The World's Largest Airline
User currently offlineEnilria From Canada, joined Feb 2008, 7230 posts, RR: 13
Reply 21, posted (5 years 11 months 4 weeks 10 hours ago) and read 15969 times:



Quoting SESGDL (Reply 11):
it's a higher yield market than DTW



Quoting Atlanta (Reply 20):
I thought SLC was high yield

Anywhere there is Southwest isn't a high yield market...which brings us to March 2009 and MSP. MSP will be a lower yield market than any of NW's hubs by then. If you pull the average fare data from DOT, MEM is the highest fare NW hub in terms of local traffic and the other two are almost tied. MSP will be third after WN enters.


User currently offlineFloridaflyboy From United States of America, joined Jun 2006, 2015 posts, RR: 0
Reply 22, posted (5 years 11 months 4 weeks 9 hours ago) and read 15689 times:



Quoting SANFan (Reply 8):
I believe DL has space issues already at SLC don't they? Seems to me there have been some discussions in the last few months about airport expansion there, with nothing decided yet. Therefore, considering gate shortages and the cost of RJs these days, it seems logical to think we will see more mainline service and fewer small jets, resulting in more seats and fewer op's.

The issues at SLC aren't quite that simple. Essentially, DL complains about the lack of gates at SLC, but yet the gates there are only full during a large bank, while an incredibly large number of them sit empty for large parts of the day. However, in spirit of full disclosure, SLC is in fact handling far more passengers than the facility was built for. I'd just rather see DL make better use of its gates in SLC. Secondly, it would be very difficult to just replace regional capacity with mainline capacity because the overwhelming majority of SkyWest flights go out of concourse E, which is usable only for smaller regional jets. Yes, the SkyWest gates on B-concourse could be used to bolster mainline capacity, but not by a huge amount.



Good goes around!
User currently offlineJkudall From United States of America, joined Mar 2004, 615 posts, RR: 1
Reply 23, posted (5 years 11 months 4 weeks 8 hours ago) and read 15338 times:

Quoting Floridaflyboy (Reply 22):
Yes, the SkyWest gates on B-concourse could be used to bolster mainline capacity, but not by a huge amount.

There are 8 gates on B concourse currently being used by Skywest which can easily be converted back to mainline use and could handle quite a few more mainline flights if need be.

[Edited 2008-10-09 07:26:28]

User currently offlineSESGDL From United States of America, joined Jan 2001, 3489 posts, RR: 10
Reply 24, posted (5 years 11 months 4 weeks 7 hours ago) and read 14982 times:



Quoting Enilria (Reply 21):

Anywhere there is Southwest isn't a high yield market...which brings us to March 2009 and MSP. MSP will be a lower yield market than any of NW's hubs by then.

Ridiculous. You do know that DTW is served by WN as well? LAX has WN and it's by no means a low-yield market. A good amount of O&D, connections, and business contracts make for a great, high-yield market. MSP will remain just that even with WN's entry into the market.

Jeremy


25 Imapilotaz : Yes, but MEM is a very small O&D market. For a fairly large hub operation (270+ departures to 80+ cities), they only have a little over 5,500 PDEWs.
26 Jfk777 : The article states Delta will move some NW Asian assets to New York and Atlanta, JFK to NRT will be back soon in early 2009.
27 JSquared : One would think that since WN has only announced 8x daily service to MDW that it would take quite a few more destinations to make this even remotely
28 FlyDreamliner : WN may not survive in MSP. I think even the people in ATL don't even know what they are going to do long term yet. The market is too dynamic right now
29 Ocracoke : The Cincinnati market is actually failry decent with O/D numbers. It's just because of DL's pricing policy out of CVG that the numbers look smaller t
30 Wedgetail737 : I could see DL realigning their international system to may involve loss of service at SEA. But I believe the gap left will be filled fairly rapidly.
31 Jetlanta : The article is not fact, it is opinion. And inaccurate on many counts. Though ATL and JFK will see Pacific growth.
32 Mayor : I would say, at least in SLC's case, that RJ flying may be drawn down, to be replaced, in part by DC-9's from NW. Somewhere, down the road, the 9's c
33 Centrair : So cut SEA service all together and move those flights to SLC or ATL or other hub? Sounds a little dangerous to drop a city like Seattle which makes
34 OA412 : Would the DC9's have the same takeoff restrictions out of SLC that the M88's have? If so I don't see DL using them in/out of SLC.
35 Burnsie28 : Just got word yesterday that Delta plans to move a lot of NW's Airbus fleet to SLC for east coast flights... why I don't know when they already have t
36 DeltaL1011man : A319s. They have the 738s but they have nothing the size of the A319. (or better say nothing they want to move out to SLC.)
37 Mayor : Not sure, but I hadn't thought of that. Maybe the RJ's would have to be replaced sooner than I thought by the ER175/190 or the CR900.
38 Jkudall : Just to make it clear, the MD-88's wouldn't be significantly restricted in SLC unless they wanted to use them on longer routes to the east coast. DL d
39 Mayor : Would the same apply to the NW DC-9's?
40 WESTERN737800 : I think MEM would be a good reliver hub to ATL. I hope we dont see any sizeable cuts there. I'm kinda a pessimest, when AA bought TW STL was gonna be
41 SlcDeltaRUmd11 : I could see DL using the 319 well out of SLC. Where would the 319s be coming from? This does support the article that delta would like to reduce RJ fl
42 Jkudall : I can't say for sure, but I doubt there would be any restrictions if they were used on SLC to other western cities.
43 Mayor : Good point. Sure would beat those 2 1/2+ hour flights in the CRJ200.
44 Rwy04LGA : Congratulations! I tried to IM you but I got some quasi-police state message.
45 Burnsie28 : Its called the 737-700.
46 Viscount724 : Not just the climate. The high summer temperatures at SLC combined with the 4200 ft altitude would no doubt mean more operational challenges on long-
47 Mayor : Depending on the a/c used, maybe the departure time could be adjusted to late evening, to allow for the temp to drop a bit and make for a decent arri
48 Jkudall : This is true, for the time being. The 767 did have some weight restrictions on the SLC-CDG route this summer but I imagine DL/NW will choose to switc
49 SLCUT2777 : Look at what WN has done to DEN, DL has had to deal with this issue in SLC since the mid 1990s. I highly doubt we will see the remaining NW DC-9s in
50 Mayor : I don't know about that. The way I hear it, the guys in network are drooling over the possibility of using the 9's to replace the 50 seaters. Maybe n
51 Jkudall : Lets not forget the price of oil has been cut almost in half since its peak just several weeks ago. There may be life yet for 50 seaters and many othe
52 Phatfarmlines : Apples to oranges comparison w/ FL vs. DL/NW. You have to remember the combined DL/NW will operate some of the longest stage-length flights in the sy
53 Burnsie28 : I doubt that you will see the DC-9 in SLC due to restrictions. When NW flew the DC-9 to COS it was taking massive payload restrictions going back to
54 PSU.DTW.SCE : DC-9's in SLC....hahahahahaha That has to be one of the most rediculous DL/NW rumors yet. There is no way, ever, that -9's would go to SLC. Operationa
55 Mayor : Tell that to the guys at network planning at DL. There are many cities thruout the west that are within 600 miles of SLC, most of which are now flown
56 DeltaL1011man : All M90s are SLC based......during the winter you see one or two M90 routes out of ATL but in the summer all 16 are in SLC. Its called they only have
57 Jfk777 : I really doubt the new Delta to has enough Pacific range airplanes to fly Salt Lake to Tokyo. 787 have better routes to fly. 767's don't have enough c
58 TN757Flyer : Geez lets hope not. The HP/US merger may well supplant the Pan Am/National merger as the poster child for how not to merge two airlines. DL is too sm
59 DeltaL1011man : DL/NW have 787s on order plus 777s. A 763 might make it. The problem will be the summer high and hot. A332 would also work.
60 PSU.DTW.SCE : The DC-9 would face significant operational restrictions out of SLC it would render it pointless. The DC-9 now out East, at sea level, on longer rout
61 Sampa737 : What will the combined fleet of the new Delta look like? How many planes? What types? And does any one have a route map of cities to be served, not in
62 Mayor : By the time the SLC-NRT route goes into effect, they should have one or two more 77L's available.
63 Jetjeanes : I had heard about the cvg cuts but it wont hurt my feelings at all to see the red tails leave Mem as the airfares have always been high since they cam
64 Sampa737 : AA has always had a good presence in Memphis. I'm with you, I'd like to see more AA but if DL can remain DL after the merger, it would be really cool
65 Planefxr : No DC-9's in SLC. Rumor has it MD-90's are headed to MSP, they won't have range limitations from there they can fly any route east or west. MD-90 doe
66 Planefxr : I think we will see A332's to CDG, AMS and NRT by 2010 out of SLC.
67 JetJeanes : AA at one tie had daily dc-10 service to dallas of all places,,, and if you flew a 727 some flights stopped in little rock....
68 DeltaL1011man : They haven't said anything about cuts Ok I knew over the winter they had 2-3 flights out of here. 1 use to be ATL-MEM. I think you have a pretty good
69 Jetdeltamsy : Well of course Delta is going to be moving Asian capacity to Atlana and New York. I don't really know the specifics of NWA's Japan-Asian hub agreemen
70 Ocracoke : There are/were recently MD90s on the CVG-LGA, CVG-DEN, and CVG-TPA segments.
71 LACA773 : If DL is going to realign their new fleet by moving 319s to SLC for east flights, are there plans to expidite the "Deltaizing" of the NW fleet up to D
72 SLCUT2777 : DHL has used DC-9s from SLC for some time (not sure if they still do), but SNA would NEVER allow them given the noise levels they generate. I'm also
73 Lambert747 : FALSE FALSE FALSE FALSE SFO, LAX, SNA, SEA and a score of others a relatively high yield markets.
74 Planefxr : CVG has seen an increase in flying already, more block hours are going to CVG MD-88 crews as well. I think a lot of what will be determined if DL acq
75 Burnsie28 : The DC-9's that fly ATL-MSP/DTW are often weight restricted, I have even had a DC-9 weight restricted MSP-GFK and thats just a 285 mile flight... the
76 Planefxr : DL does not plan on flying DC-9's out of SLC. DC-9's will take some flying out of ATL while MD-88's and MD-90's fly more out of MSP.
77 Mayor : Just how stupid do you think DL people are? Most of this speculation of 9's flying out of SLC was on my part, not DL's. I hadn't thought it thru enou
78 Aeroflot777 : Very well put. SLC is not going anywhere. No doubt about that. SLC works extremely well for DL as a Western base. They have connections to many desti
79 Imapilotaz : How is WN wanting more in SLC? WN at SLC is mature, and likely grew too much over the past few years in the market. Look for very little if any growt
80 WESTERN737800 : I dont think we'll see any DC9s at SLC. I think DL would've tried the DC9 at SLC when they operated them during the 80s and early 90s, but they had th
81 Mayor : Just as an interesting aside to this. Right after the DL/WA merger, I was working in the ramp coordinator's office in SLC. We had one coordinator tha
82 Planefxr : It is more than intriging, it is going to happen. I have maintenance friends in SLC that have already gone to A319/320 school last month in MSP, and
83 Imapilotaz : Wow, 2 whole guys learning the A330? That's practically good enough for a mechanical diversion. I somehow think if SLC was going to receive an A330 a
84 OA412 : People here are extremely loyal to DL. Notice, for instance, WN's inability to make much of an inroad into the SLC market. While they remain a solid
85 Mayor : All he said was that he had two friends who were attending school in November. Possibly there are more mechanics going to that school that are not hi
86 Planefxr : Imapilotass you are a genious! The problem is the class is four weeks long. It is called staffing levels and what is feasible at this time. The SLC h
87 SlcDeltaRUmd11 : Surprisingly southwest does want some more gates, but like delta they are at capacity at certain times so it might be just to east things more than a
88 NWAESC : Delta uber alles. Awesome.
89 Mayor : Say what you want....I really don't care but I would hate to have to work with someone with the attitudes you have. Do you really plan to be a disgru
90 NWAESC : First, you make the mistake of assuming I'm disgruntled. Second, take of the rose colored glasses, and put yourself in the shoes of an NWA'er for just
91 Mayor : My mistake. I just assumed it from what you wrote. I don't get bent any more than some of the NW people do, assuming that working for DL is working f
92 Brettdespain : While any comment is pure speculation at this point, do not expect to see SLC down sized. SLC is a star performer in DL's route structure and if any
93 NWAESC : Same here. Imagine that.... Fierce. Can't you tell?
94 NWAdeicer : Mayor, I would just like to chime in here a moment. I, along with my fellow rampers are very nervous, nothing has been said about our futures with the
95 Bobnwa : Dl has never said the 9's were going to SLC and your analysis of the reason for the merger is a bit juvenile grom my view. Agree totally. it is going
96 Mayor : I would imagine alot of it has to do with whether the unions will still be there or not, after the merger. I have also read on DL websites that unifo
97 Nwaesc : First, let me say that I completely agree with your post; I think it echoes the sentiments of almost every NWA ESE out there. The wall of silence fro
98 Mayor : What's even more maddening is that when we dispute something you've heard about DL, you blow it off like what we say doesn't matter and then you file
99 MrLurker : What we are seeing in this back-and-forth "discussion" is the exhibition of the cultural differences between NW and DL. Generally DL employees trust t
100 Mayor : You just hit the nail on the head. Good job.
101 NWAdeicer : Mayor, I have no gripe with DL (yet that I know of) My concern is selfish, I want to know about my position with Delta, what is in store for me and my
102 Mayor : Maybe the problem is that you're asking the NW managers instead of getting it from DL. Have you looked at the "Fly Together/Win Together" website? Th
103 NWAESC : The problem is you haven't actually answered anyone's concerns. As for where I get the Info I "accumulate," if you're thinking it's the IAM, you're w
104 NWAdeicer : I would just like to add one thing to NWAESC' questions, I haven't found my answer to this question so I will ask the community. Say I am working at a
105 Mayor : Sorry, but that statement of mine had nothing to do with someone would get laid off or not. I just put it in the wrong place. I was responding to stu
106 Mayor : Looks to me like YOU'RE implying that the IAM members are idiots.
107 NWAESC : Nope. What I'm calling you out on is your continuously assumption that all I'm capable of doing is toeing the IAM party line, even after I've told yo
108 NWAESC : DL doesn't have exercise of seniority language like we do, but I also would like to hear the *specific* policy from an active DL employee.
109 Mayor : Let me pose this to you. Assuming this merger will go thru do you plan to work together with your new co-workers or not? If the IAM manages to get th
110 DTWAGENT : I know that if they would increase the number of flights from SLC to DTW I would fly that route when going out to the west coast or Hawaii. That is be
111 NWAESC : Yes. If the job is still viable financially & quality of life-wise, then I'll stay. If not, I'll go. No whining. That all depends on whether or not m
112 Mayor : Ok, fair enough. Here's the answer I have and I don't think it has changed all that much over the years. You are correct. DL has no bumping privilege
113 MCOAviationFan : There are discussions going on regarding new uniforms for below wing staff for the combined DL/NW. The final decisions have not yet been made so ther
114 C767P : Why? Because a columnist on USA Today says so? Everyone has this merger worked out already....So here is my two cents. CVG is Delta’s most profitab
115 Bobnwa : From my perspective, most NW employees though very well of Anderson and enjoyed dealing with him.
116 Planefxr : So you would prefer your current NW senior management over Anderson?
117 WA707atMSP : Yes, but none of these airlines have enough room to expand at DTW's new North terminal to pose a viable threat to NW / DL. DTW has two advantages ove
118 TN757Flyer : As someone who does not have a dog in this fight between current DL and NW employees, has the management really made any concrete announcements as of
119 Mayor : That's all I was trying to say......many times.
120 NWAESC : Once again, I have to ask; are you sure we both work (worked) for the same NWA? Is Anderson a dynamic speaker? You bet. Dealing with him one on one?
121 Rwy04LGA : Hold the applause, throw money! This current Delta ramp employee confirms that.
122 DeltaL1011man : With Steeland at the top........who wouldn't be running.......but it'd make you happy cause everyone would want a union. Though I can't tell you for
123 KingAir200 : BOS, LGA, JFK, EWR, DCA, IAD, BWI, ATL, MCO, TPA, FLL, RSW, MEM, DTW, IND, GRR, FNT, MKE, MSN, GRB, MSP, MCI, STL, DEN, PHX, LAS, LAX, SFO, PDX, SEA,
124 NWAESC : I figured that might draw you out of lurker mode to post... And yes, I know you said it in jest, but there are many people who mean it. With all due
125 Mayor : If it's technically correct, it is correct. In DL's mind, that is not a job loss and if you know that up front, it's not being hidden by them. I work
126 Nwaesc : Stop right there. Just because it's "technically" correct, doesn't mean it's the "correct" info. In everyone else's mind, it is. If I choose not to m
127 Nwaflyer : Well, the one main thing that's changed is that Anderson is at the helm. You may not have dealt with him, but we at NW have. You would be quite disapp
128 Bobnwa : His career as a lawyer was as a District Attorney, hardly an ambulance chaser Most NWA and DL folks would not agree with your opinion of Anderson. Ha
129 FlyDreamliner : CVG is the most profitable hub for Delta? People who don't know the first thing about flying would be able to deduce there is a reason all flights co
130 TN757Flyer : I agree with the most part, but why keep the 90's? It's such a small subfleet and DL has been rumored to get rid of them for years, seems like this c
131 Nwaflyer : Like I said he is a lawyer and in my mind a ambulance chaser. Always looking for the job without having to deal with difficult situations. Look at hi
132 Lambert747 : Take a look at the threads discussing the TATL yields and O/D from CVG. The 767-300's are to be used for TPac expansion, in addition to other fleet t
133 Nwaflyer : When have I ever bragged about being a MN taxpayer? Never! I live in MN so therefore I am a MN taxpayer. Do I like paying taxes? No. Do I like it whe
134 C767P : I have read on here for a long time that DL is interested in more MD-90s. Is that no longer the case? Anderson said at one point that the operating c
135 Bobnwa : How about if we agree to talk about it after the merger and see what effect it has had on the MN taxpayers. Talking about something that hasn't happe
136 Jfk777 : 744 with take over the ATL to NRT route. So what is going the routes to Kuwait, Dubai, Shanghai and Seoul from ATL ? not 744 but 777, so there aren't
137 LAXdude1023 : I agree with the part about the 330's being moved to ATL, but disagree with the part about the 744's. I think ATL-NRT/GRU will be flown with 744's bu
138 MCOAviationFan : I agree as well. The PVG route will probably see the 777LR which will free up an ER for something else.
139 Sampa737 : I would love to see and fly a Delta 747 out of Sao Paulo! I've flown 767, 777, and MD-11 to Atlanta. Bring on the 74!
140 Nwaflyer : Thank you for the response. Almost everything that I have read on this post is all speculative. What planes go where, what hubs get cut, we need all
141 Mayor : I don't know how much simpler it can be put to someone. If you know you don't have bumping privileges and your job is eliminated and you're given a c
142 Nwaflyer : I now see how this works. If you have a point that is great. If a question is asked of you there is no need to answer. All speculation, no facts, but
143 Nwaesc : Very easily. In any corporate communication, you tell them the *whole* story, not just what they think the masses want to hear. Why are you advocatin
144 Mayor : Good grief!! This forum operates on 90% speculation and you're just now realizing it? According to DL, NW a/c will start to be painted, early next ye
145 Nwaflyer : According to you Mr. Mayor you know all and NW employees should comply. Almost 40 years experience? Shoe, foot. Look at it as Foot, shoe. The world h
146 Mayor : No, I don't know all. I only expound on those things I know of, unlike many on here. If I don't know about it, you won't hear from me. 33+ years expe
147 DeltaL1011man : AFAIK BOS,LGA,JFK,DCA,ATL,MCO,TPA,FLL,LAS,SFO,LAX,DFW,MSY and CMH are all DL mainline. MEM,MSP,DTW are a given, DL is already starting to us NW in SE
148 Nwaflyer : First of all Mayor, Thank you for your service! The reason for the post to Bobnwa is he did not answer a single question I asked so I will agree to l
149 NWAESC : SFO, DFW & LAS are outsourced below wing. Maybe, maybe not. We were told yesterday if they're staffed mainline now, they'll stay that way. Take that
150 TN757Flyer : I'm not sure how current these numbers are today, but the annual ATW World Airline Report from July 2008 lists DL operating 16 M90's. It lists NW ope
151 Mayor : How am I doing that? I'm telling you what I know about DL's transfer policy and it's about as open as you can get it. This is funny. It's almost as i
152 Burnsie28 : As what I believe a lot of that had to do with Steenland and the unions believe he was forced out by the BOD because he didn't want to try and make t
153 Mayor : You know, they can treat paranoia, now.
154 C767P : Part of what is supposed to happen with this merger is to remove seats from the market. Removing the DC-9 fleet takes care of some of that, but they
155 NWAESC : That wasn't what I was referring to, and you know it. I said it's deceptive to only tell part of the story in a corporate communication, and you defe
156 Mayor : Please don't attribute statements to me that I have not made. I told you what DL's policy was as far as transferring to another station when the job
157 NWAESC : Mayor, I said this, And you replied with this. From there, you took off on a tangent about bumping rights. I'm not debating that. I'm asking why you
158 DeltaL1011man : DGS I assume. MCI and STL are DGS below and Delta above. I have been told the same........hope they are telling the truth I guess time shall tell....
159 Mayor : Because that's what the discussion was about. Someone asked and I told them about Delta's policies when it came to transfers. I have no idea where th
160 NWAESC : There were two different tangents running concurrently. You got the "wires crossed." We've discussed the bumping rights, and have an understanding be
161 TN757Flyer : Very true, but if all the speculative posts and sniping posts were removed, there might be maybe 5-6-7 comments left in this thread. This is why I as
162 Mayor : I "balked" at it because I thought you were still talking about the "bumping rights" and didn't understand what I was saying. That's why I said somet
163 Flyibaby : DFW is ATS below wing; SFO is Servisair below wing.
164 NWAESC : I know. I understood perfectly what you're saying about the bumping rights. Again, no debate there. So just to be clear, do you think it's wrong for
165 Mayor : Yes, I do. What statement are you referring to? I wouldn't know. All I've heard on this subject is what you and others have posted on the subject. I
166 NWAESC : Any in general... One that jumps to mind would be the "no frontline jobs will be lost" mantra. The unspoken part of that, of course, is that you may
167 Mayor : I think the actual details on this will be clarified once the DL and NW groups get together and vote to see if they want representation. Once that is
168 Panamair : You conveniently forget to mention that replacing 777/764s on ATL-Asia/Europe/South America routes with the 744 will also be a downgrade for many Del
169 Coronado : We should alll be celebrating the creation of the largest airline in the world: new Delta! With Andersons's lenghty experience in running NWA and shor
170 NWAESC : No question about that, put getting solid info out to the rank an file should have been/should be at the top of that list. Being busy is no excuse fo
171 Ocracoke : 1) What exactly does "our cities" mean? After DL/NW merge, all the cities will be DL/NW cities. Is there some part of DL/NW that will be spun off, an
172 Nwaflyer : You know "exactly" what that means. NW has the newest aircraft across the atlantic and now, according to some MSP and DTW will lose the 330 in favor
173 Ocracoke : You know, for someone who has promised everyone on here that s/he isn't going to fly the new DL/NW, and stick only to USAir, you sure are a bit smug
174 Bobnwa : Very good answer. Just think, Nwaflyer is never going to fly DL/NW again for what ever reason and another member is never going to fly NW/DL again ei
175 TN757Flyer : This thread is getting beyond ridiculous. My grandkids act better than this. Assuming some of the people here posting are DL and NW employees as impli
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