PlaneInsomniac From Canada, joined Nov 2007, 612 posts, RR: 0 Posted (4 years 7 months 2 weeks 2 days 23 hours ago) and read 7209 times:
The commission which investigates the recent Spanair crash in Madrid (JK 5022) has released a preliminary report on the cause of the accident. The experts conclude that the flaps had not been lowered, and the corresponding warning system in the cockpit did not function for unknown reasons. No warning sound is audible in the cockpit audio recordings.
PlaneInsomniac From Canada, joined Nov 2007, 612 posts, RR: 0 Reply 1, posted (4 years 7 months 2 weeks 2 days 23 hours ago) and read 7195 times:
Addendum: Neither of the two engines failed. The investigation now focuses on a "certain relay", which may have caused the flap alarm system to fail. The final report is expected in 1-2 years.
Am I cured? Slept 5 hours on last long-haul flight...
Quote:
Durante todo el recorrido de despegue y hasta el final de la grabación del CVR, no se registró ningun sonido relacionado con el sistema de advertencia de configuración inadecuada para el despegue (TOWS20). Durante todo el periodo comprendido entre la puesta en marcha de los motores en la posición de aparcamiento R11 y el final de la grabacióndel DFDR, los valores registrados de deflexión de flaps fueron de 0º.
Citing sources of the investigation, EL PAIS affirms the sentence "Flaps, slats OK" was recorded in the CVR.
SpeedBirdA380 From United Kingdom, joined Jul 2008, 539 posts, RR: 2 Reply 3, posted (4 years 7 months 2 weeks 2 days 21 hours ago) and read 7024 times:
I dont know If anyone on this website has experience as a crash investigator but seriously they have all the data and evidence.- What take's so long to determine the cause of the crash?
DingDong From United States of America, joined Jan 2007, 661 posts, RR: 0 Reply 4, posted (4 years 7 months 2 weeks 2 days 21 hours ago) and read 6945 times:
Quoting PlaneInsomniac (Reply 1): Addendum: Neither of the two engines failed. The investigation now focuses on a "certain relay", which may have caused the flap alarm system to fail. The final report is expected in 1-2 years.
DingDong From United States of America, joined Jan 2007, 661 posts, RR: 0 Reply 5, posted (4 years 7 months 2 weeks 2 days 21 hours ago) and read 6932 times:
I dont know If anyone on this website has experience as a crash investigator but seriously they have all the data and evidence.- What take's so long to determine the cause of the crash?
Can't speak as to the UK's AAIB, but that's the normal time for the U.S. NTSB due to a relatively small staff, budget, and a large backlog of cases. It also takes some time to move an investigation of this size forward - have to coordinate testing of various components with different manufacturers, people, and whatnot, chasing down records (health, maintenance, weather, etc), analyzing them, and preparing documents. Due diligence takes a while, even for the smallest Cessna 152 crash (typically about a year to final report) to a midsize or large airliner.
For certain crashes, it can take 3-5 years (e.g. SR 111), but I doubt this will be one of these really long investigations. I'm not familiar with the Spanish investigations branch, but I have confidence they'll prepare a good final report in a reasonable amount of time.
Tdscanuck From Canada, joined Jan 2006, 12709 posts, RR: 80 Reply 6, posted (4 years 7 months 2 weeks 2 days 15 hours ago) and read 6723 times:
Quoting SpeedBirdA380 (Reply 3): I dont know If anyone on this website has experience as a crash investigator but seriously they have all the data and evidence.- What take's so long to determine the cause of the crash?
They physically have all the evidence, but it takes a long time (lots of lab testing and inspections and investigations) to physically tease out all the information into a form you can actually use to do the investigation. For example, they recovered all the bits of the BA 777 essentially instantly, and in pretty good condition, and it still took many months to figure out what happened.
SpeedBirdA380 From United Kingdom, joined Jul 2008, 539 posts, RR: 2 Reply 7, posted (4 years 7 months 2 weeks 2 days 14 hours ago) and read 6645 times:
R2rho From Germany, joined Feb 2007, 2249 posts, RR: 1 Reply 8, posted (4 years 7 months 2 weeks 2 days 3 hours ago) and read 5817 times:
Quoting Tdscanuck (Reply 6):
They physically have all the evidence, but it takes a long time (lots of lab testing and inspections and investigations) to physically tease out all the information into a form you can actually use to do the investigation.
The preliminary report can at best tell what happened, but it will never say why. That's the tough part to figure out, and the one that makes it last 1-2 years. Also keep in mind that whatever is said in the final report can potentially have huge implications (for the airline, manufacturer, authorities, ...) so quite a bit of thought must go into it.
David L From United Kingdom, joined May 1999, 9216 posts, RR: 42 Reply 9, posted (4 years 7 months 2 weeks 2 days 3 hours ago) and read 5756 times:
Quoting Tdscanuck (Reply 6): For example, they recovered all the bits of the BA 777 essentially instantly, and in pretty good condition, and it still took many months to figure out what happened.
Lufthansi From Germany, joined May 2002, 454 posts, RR: 2 Reply 10, posted (4 years 7 months 2 weeks 2 days 3 hours ago) and read 5650 times:
What I've read in the German article is not too detailed though. I'm interested in the big report which is supposed to come up in some 1 to 2 years. As an aircraft technician I can hardly believe that only one single relay needed to fail for this accident. I'm not trained for any MD aircraft but normally systems are redundant.
And just in case there really is only one relay that triggers the take off warning in case of a wrong a/c configuration, there must also have been a mistake done by the stressed pilots. As another poster wrote it is said that the pilots did not set the flaps for take-off and didn't even notice that when rushing through their take-off checklist. That would be bad but can happen to anyone of us. And that's why there is a take-off warning system.
It would be interesting to know if it is redundant like the pilots are or not.
Whatever the investigators will find out it won't save the lifes lost in this tragic event. My condolences to those who lost their beloved friends and family members. May the results of the report inhibit this fault in the nearby future.
P.S.: I also don't want to be in the place of the releasing engineer who signed the logbook. Events like this make us technicians think twice (not only) these days.
Spacecadet From United States of America, joined Sep 2001, 3251 posts, RR: 14 Reply 11, posted (4 years 7 months 2 weeks 2 days 3 hours ago) and read 5557 times:
Quoting Tdscanuck (Reply 6): They physically have all the evidence, but it takes a long time (lots of lab testing and inspections and investigations) to physically tease out all the information into a form you can actually use to do the investigation. For example, they recovered all the bits of the BA 777 essentially instantly, and in pretty good condition, and it still took many months to figure out what happened.
Not to mention those reports don't write themselves instantly. I don't think anyone should underestimate the time it takes just to write the report. Because it's not just writing - it's technical writing, and it all has to be absolutely 100% correct. Those reports can take months just to reach initial draft stage, then they'll go back and forth for several months more between specialists as corrections are made before final approval. We're talking about reports that are hundreds of pages long and include lots of very specific, highly technical data. And even a misplaced pronoun can throw the meaning of the entire report out of whack.
The safety board can know the cause of an accident with absolute certainty down to the finest detail six months before the report is released. That's why you start to see safety recommendations dribbling out long before the final report is issued.
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EZEIZA From Argentina, joined Aug 2004, 4929 posts, RR: 28 Reply 12, posted (4 years 7 months 2 weeks 2 days 1 hour ago) and read 4918 times:
Quoting Mestrugo (Reply 2): Citing sources of the investigation, EL PAIS affirms the sentence "Flaps, slats OK" was recorded in the CVR.
Was this said during the checklist? or did they have at some point during the take off roll doubts and relied only on the warning system?
Reminds me of the LAPA crash .. same apparent reasons (flaps), but with the big difference that in the LAPA the warning system was working but was ignored.
Caspritz78 From Germany, joined Aug 2007, 518 posts, RR: 0 Reply 13, posted (4 years 7 months 2 weeks 2 days 1 hour ago) and read 4794 times:
Until the final report is released we can only speculate on the cause or causes. It was probably a chain of events that finally let to this tragic accident. The question will be at what stage the chain could have broken to prevent the accident.
Trystero From Portugal, joined Oct 2008, 243 posts, RR: 0 Reply 14, posted (4 years 7 months 2 weeks 2 days ago) and read 4513 times:
I don't know if there is an answer in previous threads about thid accident, if so i'm sorry. But could the pilots had the flaps/slats lever in the correct position, but the mecanism somhow failed to move them, wich together with the failure of the warning system caused the crash? Was it possible to change the flaps/slats position during take-off run?
BCAL From United Kingdom, joined Jun 2004, 3384 posts, RR: 18 Reply 15, posted (4 years 7 months 1 week 3 days 10 hours ago) and read 3823 times:
According to a report just released on BBC News, the two mechanics who who checked the plane before take-off, and Spanair's head of maintenance at Barajas, have formally been cited for the manslaughter of 154 people and for the injuries suffered by 18 survivors. They are expected to give evidence in court next month.
Saab2000 From Switzerland, joined Jun 2001, 1605 posts, RR: 12 Reply 16, posted (4 years 7 months 1 week 3 days 8 hours ago) and read 3679 times:
Quoting Lufthansi (Reply 10): Whatever the investigators will find out it won't save the lifes lost in this tragic event. My condolences to those who lost their beloved friends and family members. May the results of the report inhibit this fault in the nearby future.
You are correct in saying that the results will not change the facts of the accident. But over time we have learned very much from accidents and changed/updated procedures and equipment to help ensure that such accidents don't happen again.
It is in this sense that hopefully the lost lives will not have been lost in vain.
Aviation is far safer than it was 20 or 30 years ago because of these detailed investigations and the changes they (hopefully) bring about.
Readytotaxi From United Kingdom, joined Dec 2006, 2596 posts, RR: 3 Reply 17, posted (4 years 7 months 1 week 3 days 7 hours ago) and read 3616 times:
From the BBC news web site,
"Investigators say the two mechanics had deactivated a faulty temperature gauge, but failed to spot a problem with the aircraft's take-off warning system, which was operating on the same electronic relay.
Less than half an hour later, Spanair flight 5022 crashed after take-off, killing all but 18 passengers on board.
Investigators say the wing flaps - which should have provided lift - had not been deployed, and that the warning system failed to sound in the cockpit."
That sound serious for the people involved, why would a temp gauge be linked to a wing flap alarm?
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