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AA DFW-IAH  
User currently offlineJcchristie From United States of America, joined Nov 2006, 39 posts, RR: 0
Posted (5 years 9 months 4 days 2 hours ago) and read 5970 times:

Why does AA only operate 6 dailies in between these DFW and IAH?

- They have city-city competition with southwest

- They have airport-airport competition with Continental

But still, you would think an aggressive airline like AA would operate a lot more than 6 daily flights between these two airports.

24 replies: All unread, jump to last
 
User currently offlineTranspac787 From United States of America, joined Jul 2007, 3184 posts, RR: 13
Reply 1, posted (5 years 9 months 4 days 2 hours ago) and read 5956 times:

AA also operates DFW-HOU on AA Eagle, keep in mind, so their presence on the Dallas to Houston market on the whole is still fairly large.


A340-500: 4 engines 4 long haul. 777-200LR: 2 engines 4 longer haul
User currently offlineJcchristie From United States of America, joined Nov 2006, 39 posts, RR: 0
Reply 2, posted (5 years 9 months 4 days 2 hours ago) and read 5944 times:

yeah I realize that...and I guess HOU is closer to downtown kind of like (LGA and MDW?) so it may be more important than IAH

User currently offlineSsides From United States of America, joined Feb 2001, 4059 posts, RR: 21
Reply 3, posted (5 years 9 months 4 days 2 hours ago) and read 5939 times:



Quoting Transpac787 (Reply 1):
AA also operates DFW-HOU on AA Eagle, keep in mind, so their presence on the Dallas to Houston market on the whole is still fairly large.

That's a big part of it. The Southwest factor is the other part. Keep in mind that CO only has a relative handful of flights as well.

Here's the Dallas-Houston schedule breakdown:

AA:
6 daily DFW-IAH
6 daily DFW-HOU

CO:
10 daily DFW-IAH
10 daily DAL-IAH

WN:
30 daily DAL-HOU

So, while CO has a few more daily flights than AA, both of them have essentially ceded the O&D Dallas-Houston market to Southwest. CO may have a few more flights, but they tend to fly smaller aircraft, so I'd guess that the number of seats betweeen Dallas and Houston is pretty even between AA and CO.

Essentially, the people flying AA and CO between Dallas and Houston are (1) connecting passengers, or (2) O&D passengers from Fort Worth or the northern Houston suburbs for whom DFW and IAH are more convenient airports. Other than that, WN pretty much has this market wrapped up.



"Lose" is not spelled with two o's!!!!
User currently offlineLonghornmaniac From United States of America, joined Jun 2005, 3275 posts, RR: 45
Reply 4, posted (5 years 9 months 4 days 1 hour ago) and read 5916 times:

I'd imagine there's just too many seats in the market for them to try and do any more. I mean, when you consider WN has 30 flights, that's a lot of seats.

By my count, for October 13th (Monday), there are 6620 seats on the Dallas-Houston market.

4110 are WN DAL-HOU, or 62.08% of the market.

300 are AA DFW-HOU, or 4.53% of the market.

816 are AA DFW-IAH, or 12.33% of the market.

894 are CO DFW-IAH, or 13.50% of the market.

500 are CO DAL-IAH, or 7.55% of the market.

Totals:
WN: 62.08%
CO: 21.05%
AA: 16.86%

All in all, it's clear that WN dominates this market, but AA controls 55.52% of the DFW-Houston market. Pretty even with CO, in that regard. Suffice to say, CO has an advantage (63.07%) on number of seats to/from IAH.

DAL-HOU has long been one of WN's niche markets, lots of advertising etc..., so its not surprising that AA and CO have "conceded" the majority of O&D traffic to WN. I'm sure these flights exist primarily for connecting passengers, but admittedly I don't have figures to prove that.

Cheers,
Cameron

edit: forgot CO DAL-IAH, numbers should be correct now.

[Edited 2008-10-11 23:37:30]

User currently offlineBooDog From United States of America, joined Nov 2007, 257 posts, RR: 0
Reply 5, posted (5 years 9 months 3 days 19 hours ago) and read 5765 times:



Quoting Longhornmaniac (Reply 4):
DAL-HOU has long been one of WN's niche markets, lots of advertising etc...,

Oh man oh man... I remember the commercials from the 80's in the Dallas market. It was nothing but the DAL-HOU departure times scrolling across the screen.

6:30am
7:00am
7:30am
7:45am
8:00am
8:30am
9:00am
9:30am
10:00am
etc.

They absolutely saturated local TV sports events with that commercial.

IIRC, they've done close to 40 flights a day between DAL and HOU before.



B1B - best looking aircraft ever.
User currently offlineCschleic From United States of America, joined Feb 2002, 1246 posts, RR: 0
Reply 6, posted (5 years 9 months 3 days 16 hours ago) and read 5450 times:

I wonder if AA's DFW-IAH is more for connections at DFW than local traffic? Local flyers would use the closer airports.

User currently offlineLonghornmaniac From United States of America, joined Jun 2005, 3275 posts, RR: 45
Reply 7, posted (5 years 9 months 3 days 16 hours ago) and read 5428 times:



Quoting Cschleic (Reply 6):
I wonder if AA's DFW-IAH is more for connections at DFW than local traffic?

Almost without a doubt. I'm sure neither AA nor CO has failed to grasp that WN owns the O&D market between Dallas and Houston. As Ssides pointed out, I'd imagine the only O&D that AA gets is people who live in Ft. Worth or the Northwest part of the Metroplex, or AAdvantage loyals in the Metroplex or Houston (of which there are probably 2  Wink). Similarly, CO probably gets some O&D from people living on the north side of Houston or any OnePass loyals in the Metroplex area.

Almost solely for connection purposes.

Cheers,
Cameron


User currently offlineSsides From United States of America, joined Feb 2001, 4059 posts, RR: 21
Reply 8, posted (5 years 9 months 2 days 23 hours ago) and read 3227 times:



Quoting Cschleic (Reply 6):
I wonder if AA's DFW-IAH is more for connections at DFW than local traffic? Local flyers would use the closer airports.

Absolutely. That's also why AA serves HOU, and CO serves DAL. This allows both airlines to serve pax that might otherwise fly WN, or get them to destinations that WN doesn't serve. AA and CO they can't compete full-on with WN from these airports, but they do have a mall niche of loyal frequent flyers and other pax they can serve by doing this.



"Lose" is not spelled with two o's!!!!
User currently offlineCO1787 From United States of America, joined Jul 2008, 36 posts, RR: 0
Reply 9, posted (5 years 9 months 2 days 16 hours ago) and read 3090 times:

I remember when AA used to have a lot of flights out of IAH. I think it was pre 911 though.

User currently offlineBlueFlyer From United States of America, joined Jan 2006, 3901 posts, RR: 2
Reply 10, posted (5 years 9 months 2 days 15 hours ago) and read 3012 times:
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Quoting Jcchristie (Thread starter):
Why does AA only operate 6 dailies in between these DFW and IAH?



Quoting Ssides (Reply 3):
So, while CO has a few more daily flights than AA, both of them have essentially ceded the O&D Dallas-Houston market to Southwest

I fly CO quite a bit between DFW and IAH, and my experience tells me the vast majority of passengers are "connecting traffic," as witnessed whenever my plane gets delayed for one reason or another, connecting passengers are asked to line up at the podium and nearly everyone ends up in the queue.
Given the location of DAL and HOU, I can see why WN would have the majority of the traffic. I'm one of the odd ones out, obviously, because:
a) Corporate contract says I have to fly CO whenever possible;
b) DFW is far more convenient to me than DAL given where I live and when I fly;
c) I like CO.



I've got $h*t to do
User currently offlineRFields5421 From United States of America, joined Jul 2007, 7503 posts, RR: 32
Reply 11, posted (5 years 9 months 2 days 15 hours ago) and read 2994 times:

You have to remember the history.

Southwest made DAL-HOU a top priority - recognizing it as the most lucrative route in the state - back 20-30 years ago - and concentrated upon that route.

At the same time AA and CO were concentrating on building national and international networks.

I've flown DFW-IAH about six times over the past 10 years - and very time was because the company routed me on a DFW-IAH-SDF or return flight on CO as being cheaper than AA.

To CO - DFW is just another outlying airport to collect passengers for their hub traffic out of IAH.

To AA - IAH is just another outlying airport to collect passengers for their hub traffic out of DFW.

Neither want to, or can afford to, get into a fare war for the O&D traffic with WN.

Now, if WN ever moved to DFW - AA would have a major problem on their hands - one reason AA wants to keep WN at DAL with a restriction on the maximum number of gates.


User currently offlineTN757Flyer From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 12, posted (5 years 9 months 2 days 13 hours ago) and read 2919 times:



Quoting BooDog (Reply 5):
IIRC, they've done close to 40 flights a day between DAL and HOU before.

True, I recall when living in Dallas. Every half hour, and during peak times, on the quarter hour as well. Since I moved from Dallas I haven't flown through DAL. Does WN still use three gates for it's HOU flights? Seems like it was 4 A-B-C. The boarding areas could get quite crowded at times.


User currently offlineCjpark From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 1248 posts, RR: 6
Reply 13, posted (5 years 9 months 2 days 8 hours ago) and read 2815 times:



Quoting RFields5421 (Reply 11):
Now, if WN ever moved to DFW - AA would have a major problem on their hands - one reason AA wants to keep WN at DAL with a restriction on the maximum number of gates.

What a load of bull.

WN wanted the gate restrictions to keep other airlilnes out of their private little Downtown Dallas airport. WN never had any intention at all of moving to DFW.

Question is on the Dallas Houston traffic when the restrictions end how many of those DAL- HOU flights will remain since WN will no longer have to connect passengers through HOU?



"Any airline that wants to serve the [region] can go to DFW today and fly anywhere they want," WN spokesman Ed Stewart
User currently offlineSsides From United States of America, joined Feb 2001, 4059 posts, RR: 21
Reply 14, posted (5 years 9 months 2 days 3 hours ago) and read 2703 times:



Quoting RFields5421 (Reply 11):
one reason AA wants to keep WN at DAL with a restriction on the maximum number of gates.

That's actually not true -- AA would likely prefer WN to serve DFW and shut down DAL completely. That way, AA wouldn't have to waste money on its DAL operation, and could compete with WN at DFW by way of its vastly superior network. Some airlines don't want WN to compete at their hubs, but AA and DL are not near as fearful of WN competition as some of their weaker competitors.

That being said, short of forcing WN to move to DFW, AA is very happy that DAL now has gate restrictions.

Quoting Cjpark (Reply 13):

WN wanted the gate restrictions to keep other airlilnes out of their private little Downtown Dallas airport. WN never had any intention at all of moving to DFW.

I don't think that's true, either. In WN's perfect world, they would be able to fly all over the US from DAL with no gate restrictions. However, when faced with the choice of moving to DFW or gate restrictions, they chose gate restrictions. Plus, WN also agreed that if other airlines want to serve DAL, they have to give up or share some of their gates to accommodate them.

Quoting Cjpark (Reply 13):
Question is on the Dallas Houston traffic when the restrictions end how many of those DAL- HOU flights will remain since WN will no longer have to connect passengers through HOU?

Probably most will stay. Before the Wright Amendment repeal, WN's DAL-HOU operation served primarily O&D passengers. After the Wright Amendment repeal, more DAL passengers are connecting through HOU, but WN has not significantly changed the number of flights. Once the Wright Amendment is fully gone, I doubt you'll see much change. DAL-HOU is still a huge O&D market, and WN isn't going to cede any significant number of frequencies.



"Lose" is not spelled with two o's!!!!
User currently offlineRFields5421 From United States of America, joined Jul 2007, 7503 posts, RR: 32
Reply 15, posted (5 years 9 months 2 days 3 hours ago) and read 2690 times:

Enjoy the KoolAid - it looks like both of you bought the fake PR war over Love -- hook line and sinker. AA and WN both got exactly what they wanted out of the new law.

AA and WN both have their perfect scenario in Dallas, and CO in Houston.

All three airlines and their management are smart enough to know that the status quo provides a strong defensible base in Texas for each airline without a strong competitor.

They can each concentrate on expanding and building stronger networks across the nation without a potentially fatal fare battle in Texas.

Quoting Ssides (Reply 14):
Plus, WN also agreed that if other airlines want to serve DAL, they have to give up or share some of their gates to accommodate them.

Yes, FOUR gates maximum will not be exclusively WN. That ensures no one comes into DAL strong enough to threaten WN either O&D within Texas or connection wise.


User currently offlineRFields5421 From United States of America, joined Jul 2007, 7503 posts, RR: 32
Reply 16, posted (5 years 9 months 2 days 3 hours ago) and read 2676 times:



Quoting Cjpark (Reply 13):
Question is on the Dallas Houston traffic when the restrictions end how many of those DAL- HOU flights will remain since WN will no longer have to connect passengers through HOU?



Quoting Ssides (Reply 14):
After the Wright Amendment repeal, more DAL passengers are connecting through HOU,

I'm seeing more connecting traffic DAL-STL, DAL-BHM, DAL-ELP/ABQ than DAL-HOU these days. Most of the connecting people I see when I fly out of DAL are headed north, and would not fly to HOU for a connection.

There also seems to be a lot of through ticketing via ABQ or ELP to PHX, LAS, OAK and Los Angeles rather than going to HOU first.

Though frankly Wright was never a problem when my ex-wife lived in San Diego and the kids would fly WN via ABQ or ELP back through out the 90's.

That negates the advantages of DAL over DFW and lengthens the flight time to make non-stop on AA more cost effective for business travel.

Most DAL folks avoid HOU like the plague when possible.

Now since I take 8 flights north, east or west from DAL for every trip I take to HOU - my views might be skewed.


User currently offlineRFields5421 From United States of America, joined Jul 2007, 7503 posts, RR: 32
Reply 17, posted (5 years 9 months 2 days 2 hours ago) and read 2657 times:

Okay I went through the SWA booking web site - the only destinations SWA tries to route me though HOU to read are all in Florida, except of course for Corpus and Harlingen - and half the flights to New Orleans - but that was the same before.

I was actually surprised how many it wanted to route me through OKC.

That included researching individual flights on FlightAware to check the enroute stops.


User currently offlineRFields5421 From United States of America, joined Jul 2007, 7503 posts, RR: 32
Reply 18, posted (5 years 9 months 2 days 2 hours ago) and read 2647 times:



Quoting Jcchristie (Thread starter):
But still, you would think an aggressive airline like AA would operate a lot more than 6 daily flights between these two airports.

The real key is that AA tried somewhat a long time ago - and it was too expensive of a battle which they could not win without a long multi-year losing streak.

Those routes are WN's base - their core - WN will not give away significant market share without a long bloody flight which would have to result in the end of WN as we know it today for anyone else to be a big player on those routes.

As Longhornmaniac researched above - WN has over 4,000 seats per day DAL-HOU - even at my average cost of $100 per flight - that's still $ 700-800,000 per day for WN.

Would AA like to have the Dallas to Houston O&D traffic, would CO like to have that traffic?

Of course, but the time to battle WN and keep their main routes from developing was 30 years ago. Now it's too late.

AA can spend their money and develop better routes elsewhere in the world for a much lower costs and higher returns than Dallas to Houston. The same with CO.


User currently offlineScottB From United States of America, joined Jul 2000, 6696 posts, RR: 32
Reply 19, posted (5 years 9 months 1 day 10 hours ago) and read 2465 times:



Quoting Cjpark (Reply 13):
WN wanted the gate restrictions to keep other airlilnes out of their private little Downtown Dallas airport. WN never had any intention at all of moving to DFW.

At least some things are as predictable as the sun rising in the east and setting in the west.

Southwest never asked for gate restrictions at DAL. When SWA first started their campaign for Wright Amendment repeal, all they asked for was a simple repeal of the Wright Amendment, with no restrictions on DAL aside from agreeing to be bound by the city's Love Field Master Plan, which envisioned, as I recall, something in the neighborhood of 32-35 gates being available at DAL (including the former Legend terminal). Heck, they even offered to let American use some of their gates when AA started using its DAL gates in violation of their lease terms of the city.

It seems somewhat specious to argue that Southwest fears competition at DAL or anywhere else for that matter. Did they try to block AA's service from DAL to MCI/STL/AUS/SAT/ORD? No, I suspect they were happy to let AA blow through millions of dollars in the hope of making some kind of point, whatever it was.

Believe me, if AA, DFW, and the City of Fort Worth hadn't insisted on limitations at DAL, there wouldn't be limitations at DAL. The history of service at HOU vs. IAH pretty much tells you that just about everyone would stay at DFW; service at HOU by airlines other than WN is extremely limited, and it's not due to a lack of gates or pressure from the City of Houston.


User currently offlineDrerx7 From United States of America, joined Jun 2000, 5144 posts, RR: 8
Reply 20, posted (5 years 9 months 1 day 9 hours ago) and read 2423 times:

Yep in fact from Hobby save for WN flights the only other cities connect by the remaining carriers are, Dallas, Atlanta, and New York.


Third Coast born, means I'm Texas raised
User currently offlineSsides From United States of America, joined Feb 2001, 4059 posts, RR: 21
Reply 21, posted (5 years 9 months 1 day 2 hours ago) and read 2292 times:



Quoting ScottB (Reply 19):
The history of service at HOU vs. IAH pretty much tells you that just about everyone would stay at DFW; service at HOU by airlines other than WN is extremely limited, and it's not due to a lack of gates or pressure from the City of Houston.

The different dynamic affecting DFW and DAL, when compared to IAH and HOU, is that while IAH and HOU are owned and operated by the same authority, while DFW and DAL are owned by separate entities. It's much easier for Houston to manage its traffic because of this.

Obviously, that's only one part of the entire puzzle, but it (along with the greater distance between IAH and HOU) goes a long way in explaining why the DFW area has more issues in managing its air traffic than Houston does.



"Lose" is not spelled with two o's!!!!
User currently offlineRFields5421 From United States of America, joined Jul 2007, 7503 posts, RR: 32
Reply 22, posted (5 years 9 months 18 hours ago) and read 2216 times:

If you've been around Dallas for a while, you'll remember the discussions and talks Kellerher and Crandall were giving back in the late 1980s about the future of aviation in North Texas and the future of Wright at various business forums and groups.

Both expected Wright restrictions to be removed from Love in some 15-20-25 years.

Kellerher's main point is that Southwest needed a transition period. That a sudden lifting of Wright would make Love lucrative for other LCC carriers while WN was trying to shift their system around and put WN at a disadvantage. He was also very concerned that removing Wright restrictions and a sudden increase in traffic at Love might result in NIMBY limitations being imposed.

He expected those limitations to hurt Southwest more than other carriers because the other carriers would have set their planned maximum flight levels by the time WN was nearing completion of it's restructuring. One thing Kellerher emphasized, and all WN management has emphasized since, is that WN does not make knee jerk sudden changes to its network or scheduled. They plan and work out the impacts of those changes system wide to make sure they are not creating unintended adverse impacts.

Crandall wanted Love to become like Stapleton - a housing development/ park. He also wanted Chicago Midway, Houston Hobby, two or three airports in the LA basin to also go the route of extinction.

He acknowledged that would probably never happen in Dallas, or the other cities, in his lifetime. He was concerned about WN possibly moving to DFW. AA had finally gotten Braniff out of the picture and was building and stabilizing. Their next goal was to get DL to stop using DFW as a hub/focus city.

He was happy with WN at DAL while AA consolidated DFW. He didn't particularly want to be competiting side by side with WN on routes like ATL, DCA, ORD, LAS, LAX, SFO. He thought that WN would eventually be a player in those markets, but as long as the two airlines were not side by side in Dallas, AA would retain it's advantages as a full service legacy carrier.

He was also concerned about the impact WN might have on DFW operations, especially with it's focus on quick turnaround of aircraft. He thought moving WN to DFW might upset the balance on the DFW Airport Board and the management priorities of the airport.

He did not see anyway that Wright restrictions would stay in place at DAL for more than 20-25 years. He did not want DAL unrestricted.

Both Crandall and Kellerher were talking 20 years ago that the best reasonable outcome for the financial health of both airlines was limits at Love in the maximum number of flights per day, or maximum number of gates. And that Wright restrictions be phased out rather than lifted immediately.

Though the current federal law is neither's perfect scenario - it certainly is very close to their optimal solution.

It also meets another criteria both men said was essential - that the changed situation be a federal law exempt from anti-trust requirements, not regulations, a city ordinance or a state law.


User currently offlineTN757Flyer From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 23, posted (5 years 9 months 17 hours ago) and read 2183 times:

Ah, the never ending argument over the WA again. IMO, for the zillionth time, the "compromise" is pretty much status quo other than open DAL up nationally. It's highly unlikely AA is or ever will make money on flights from DAL. The only reason they are there is to make sure those gates don't get leased to another carrier, say a Jet Blue or Airtran. When I lived in Dallas when the battle over Legend was going on. I recall the hollow threats about how AA would have to move a "significant" portion of it's DFW flights to DAL to compete. They rip out a bunch of seats on a few F100's, Legend can't compete and dies, and those little Fokkers are suddenly gone. How many different combinations of service has AA tried at Love, and how many times have those been drawn down? They finally fly a route that at least makes a slight bit of sense, RJ's to another hub, but based on what I've seen in other threads, it's not necessarily profitable. I have a feeling as 2014 nears, there will be some new legal challenges to this agreement from airlines that are basically shutout unless one of the incumbents leases gate space, which I don't see happening. Stay tuned?

User currently offlineScottB From United States of America, joined Jul 2000, 6696 posts, RR: 32
Reply 24, posted (5 years 9 months 14 hours ago) and read 2073 times:



Quoting TN757Flyer (Reply 23):
I have a feeling as 2014 nears, there will be some new legal challenges to this agreement from airlines that are basically shutout unless one of the incumbents leases gate space, which I don't see happening.

It will be extremely difficult to challenge the agreement because it has been written into law by the U.S. Congress. The only ways around it would be through some not-yet-seen loophole or a challenge on Constitutional grounds (highly unlikely). If memory serves, there are requirements for the incumbent airlines to share gates if any of those gates are underutilized. So new entrants won't be shut out of DAL; they may just have to work around the scheduling of the incumbents.

Quoting Ssides (Reply 21):
while IAH and HOU are owned and operated by the same authority, while DFW and DAL are owned by separate entities. It's much easier for Houston to manage its traffic because of this.

Except we really don't see Houston "managing" traffic between the two airports aside from all scheduled international service being at IAH. FL and B6 have chosen HOU, while F9 chose IAH. Airlines which used to serve both (like NW) have consolidated at IAH; AA and DL have both scaled back their HOU operations. DL used to offer service to ATL, DFW, and CVG from HOU, as an example, but now only serves ATL. CO has given up on its HOU flying, while AA abandoned its AUS-HOU-LGA route several years ago.

With DAL and DFW being closer to each other than HOU and IAH, it seems even less likely that airlines at DFW would move to DAL to directly compete with the 800-lb gorilla of LCC's.

Quoting RFields5421 (Reply 22):
He was also very concerned that removing Wright restrictions and a sudden increase in traffic at Love might result in NIMBY limitations being imposed.

He expected those limitations to hurt Southwest more than other carriers because the other carriers would have set their planned maximum flight levels by the time WN was nearing completion of it's restructuring.

What's important to put out, though, is that Herb's concern was directed toward how a different set of limitations on DAL (i.e. flight caps) might affect Southwest. It does take longer to re-engineer a 150-flight operation than it does to establish a 10-flight operation. I would imagine that in the absence of externally-imposed flight caps on DAL, however, that they would have been less concerned about some sort of transition period.

I do strongly doubt that Southwest pushed for an eight-year transition, though. They may be very gradual in changes they make to the business, but certainly two years would have been more than enough for them. Again, I think it's important to look at what Southwest advocated then they started their "Set Love Free" campaign -- unconditional repeal of Wright and adherence to the Love Field Master Plan, which would have made about a dozen gates available to other carriers.


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