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DC-9 And Modern Appearances  
User currently offlineAFKL From Netherlands, joined Feb 2008, 219 posts, RR: 0
Posted (5 years 6 months 6 days 20 hours ago) and read 5146 times:

Hey all,

I was wondering whether NW would still be operating the DC-9 (some of which were built back in the 60's) if well... it did not have the modern appearance it has. If I were not the aviation nut I was, I would not be able to say from exterior looks, nor from the interior looks (due to the updates) that the plane I was about to fly on could well be 40 years old, yet other similar airliners such as the the BAC1-11 have a distinct 'vintage' look to them, and still being this aviation-ignorant person, I would not be comfortable flying in such an old bird.

So I guess its due to the Mad Dogs we have flying around, which of course are not as old, that passengers are ignorant about this fact, and I clearly know that the DC9's are still very safe planes to fly in, but the flying public will obviously have different personal opinions.

So, what I'm trying to get at, if the DC-9 looked more 'vintage', would it scare potential passengers off, thus resulting in NW having retired its DC-9 fleet earlier?

Sorry if I'm not being very clear (I have the tendency to be that way  Wink)!


ALLARD.


ALLARD. First flight: KLM DC-10, LLW - AMS.
23 replies: All unread, jump to last
 
User currently offlineOzarkD9S From United States of America, joined Oct 2001, 4877 posts, RR: 22
Reply 1, posted (5 years 6 months 6 days 20 hours ago) and read 5140 times:

Looks have nothing to do with it. That the aircraft are paid for does.


Next Up: STL-TPA-BWI-PWM-BWI-STL
User currently offlineAFKL From Netherlands, joined Feb 2008, 219 posts, RR: 0
Reply 2, posted (5 years 6 months 6 days 20 hours ago) and read 5119 times:



Quoting OzarkD9S (Reply 1):
Looks have nothing to do with it. That the aircraft are paid for does.

And I respect that, however, if the plane just generally looked as though it was built in the 60's (which in my opinion is does not), would passengers avoid NW due to the fact of their old planes (as well... people just generally feel less safe in older aircarft), which due to its more modern look is less obvious? And if NW would be loosing revenue from this, would they have retired their fleet earlier?

I am sorry if this is too much 'unconventional history', but I thought it would lead to an interesting discussion. (Though, granted, I've been wrong before  Wink) hehe.


ALLARD.



ALLARD. First flight: KLM DC-10, LLW - AMS.
User currently offlineRampart From United States of America, joined Aug 2005, 3067 posts, RR: 7
Reply 3, posted (5 years 6 months 6 days 20 hours ago) and read 5071 times:

I'm not sure I understand how a DC-9 looks "modern" but a BAC111 looks "vintage". Sounds like a personal preference or perception. What about 737-200s? Do those look modern? To me, they're hard to discern from more modern 737s, aside from the engines. Yet, a 737 nose has heritage to the 707, and that's "vintage". The DC-9's nose traces to the DC-8, also vintage.

I don't doubt your perception, I just think this is a hard one to generalize, compared to many other factors.

-Rampart


User currently offlineDALMD88 From United States of America, joined Jul 2000, 2501 posts, RR: 14
Reply 4, posted (5 years 6 months 6 days 20 hours ago) and read 5054 times:

I think part of the reason one may consider the BAC 'vintage looking' while the DC9 is 'modern looking' has to do with the short lifespan of the BAC. We only associate the BAC with the 60's and 70's. The DC9 on the other had is regularly seen with more modern Airbus and Embraer models. Also the contiuation of the family with the MD80 models brings it into the current age.

User currently offlinePGNCS From United States of America, joined Apr 2007, 2752 posts, RR: 45
Reply 5, posted (5 years 6 months 6 days 19 hours ago) and read 4951 times:

This is an aesthetics discussion, and the average traveler knows or cares nothing about the aesthetics of an airliner. They want it to be clean, comfortable, quiet, and expect reliability, all of which NW's DC-9's provide on par with other competitors. The average passenger couldn't tell the difference between a BAC-111, a DC-9, or a 717.

User currently offlineCrimsonNL From Netherlands, joined Dec 2007, 1798 posts, RR: 42
Reply 6, posted (5 years 6 months 6 days 18 hours ago) and read 4882 times:
AIRLINERS.NET CREW
CHAT OPERATOR

Keep in mind that 95% of the people on board those NW domestic flights don't give a rip about what plane they're on. We in the Netherlands don't have domestic flights! For most of the travelers there its as normal as taking the train.

I do agree that most people are so ignorant that they think that old planes, and any plane from the Russia area is unsafe.



Fly DC-Jets!
User currently offlineBravoGolf From United States of America, joined Apr 2005, 538 posts, RR: 1
Reply 7, posted (5 years 6 months 6 days 16 hours ago) and read 4717 times:

Is it me or was there something magical with Douglas and the number 3? You have the DC3
2x3 = DC6 and 3x3 = DC 9. I wonder if the DC(MD) 12 would have worked?


User currently offlineSeaBosDca From United States of America, joined Sep 2007, 5077 posts, RR: 4
Reply 8, posted (5 years 6 months 6 days 16 hours ago) and read 4709 times:

To me, DC-9s (and MD-80s) look old because of their narrow, low-bypass engines. Like everyone else said, though, it doesn't matter, because they have updated interiors and fresh paint.

Quoting PGNCS (Reply 5):
They want it to be clean, comfortable, quiet, and expect reliability, all of which NW's DC-9's provide on par with other competitors.

You're 3 for 4 here...  Wink two screaming JT8Ds don't strike me as exactly "quiet"...



Most gorgeous aircraft: Tu-204-300, 757-200, A330-200, 777-200LR, 787-8
User currently offlineZBBYLW From Canada, joined Nov 2006, 1965 posts, RR: 7
Reply 9, posted (5 years 6 months 6 days 15 hours ago) and read 4638 times:



Quoting SeaBosDca (Reply 8):
You're 3 for 4 here... Wink two screaming JT8Ds don't strike me as exactly "quiet"...

Well if you sit up near the front its quiter then an A320 today!



Keep the shinny side up!
User currently offlineJetJeanes From United States of America, joined Oct 2004, 1429 posts, RR: 1
Reply 10, posted (5 years 6 months 6 days 15 hours ago) and read 4634 times:

Well yes but keep in mind about everything on that dc-9 has been replaced with modern parts
and about the only thing orginal is its shadow. as far s the bac- i dont know if the public knows if its a crj or a bac1-11 but just our a.netters. but then again i dont know of any bacs left in the us..
.
I know Nw,s dc-9,s are paid for and they are gas gusslers, but i really just have some doubts Delta would keep them and paint them in their livery as they are bringing on more cr900. through Pinnacle and I think they even own a few now.
.
Its really hard to believe technology from 50 years ago have outlasted some aircraft in the bone yards half their age. MD just built a great aircraft. You are right it is hard to tell the age of the plane unless you look in the door frame at the plate,. I just dont see these composite aircraft lasting s long as the dc-9s or dc-3 as we will eventually with enough hours start to see cracks in these planes causeing early reitirment but that is my opinon.. i dont think they are built to last 50 years or more like the good old days



i can see for 80 miles
User currently offlineHaggis79 From Germany, joined Jun 2006, 1096 posts, RR: 1
Reply 11, posted (5 years 6 months 6 days 14 hours ago) and read 4607 times:

I think I can see the OP's point.... if the planes did not have the updated interiors many people would probably not feel comfortable flying them - as it is most people would probably be surprised if you told them the plane's age given that it feels even quite new once you're inside.

As for the exterior - maybe. I think it helps that the T-tail design is the same as with the newer MDs and with the CRJ - so we're still used to it. A 707 today would probably look weird due to the antenna at the tail. So if the DC-9 were the last remaining plane in a T-tail config, that might play a role, too. But I think the interiors plays a larger role here - which is probably why NW updated them to begin with  Wink.



300 310 319/20/21 332/3 343 AT4/7 143 B19 732/3/4/5/G/8/9 742/4 752/3 763/4 77E/W CR2/7/9 D95 E45/70 F50 F70 100 M11 M90
User currently offline747400sp From United States of America, joined Aug 2003, 3301 posts, RR: 2
Reply 12, posted (5 years 6 months 6 days 14 hours ago) and read 4552 times:

Well as said earlier, look really has nothing to do with moder design. Look at the 737, to me 737 NG with winglets, look just as modern as an A320, CRJ and E170-190, but it is base off the 707 and 727 design. Also look at the A340 500,600. The A340 is Basicly a stretch A300 with four large engines. I even call them a mixer of DC-8 & A300, but they are some off the most modern, luxurious, and state of the art airliners flying today.

User currently offlineRikkus67 From Canada, joined Jun 2000, 1577 posts, RR: 1
Reply 13, posted (5 years 6 months 6 days 6 hours ago) and read 4251 times:


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Photo © Mike Genovese


original interior with "hat racks" instead of bins

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Photo © Fabrice Sanchez - Brussels Aviation Photography


early overhead bin style

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Photo © Justin Cederholm


70's-80's overhead style bin

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Photo © Dan Brownlee


NW airlines "modernized" interior and bins

..and, by comparison, the Boeing 717 interior (what would have been the MD-95)

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Photo © Harri Koskinen




AC.WA.CP.DL.RW.CO.WG.WJ.WN.KI.FL.SK.ACL.UA.US.F9
User currently offlineStratosphere From United States of America, joined Sep 2007, 1647 posts, RR: 4
Reply 14, posted (5 years 6 months 6 days 6 hours ago) and read 4214 times:



Quoting PGNCS (Reply 5):
This is an aesthetics discussion, and the average traveler knows or cares nothing about the aesthetics of an airliner. They want it to be clean, comfortable, quiet, and expect reliability, all of which NW's DC-9's provide on par with other competitors. The average passenger couldn't tell the difference between a BAC-111, a DC-9, or a 717.

PGNCS is exactly right. Passengers really are ignorant. That is why NWA took the data plate from the door jam and put in the cockpit so that pax could not see the age of the aircraft. Pax look at the interior and they have no idea what goes on after that. However I do and I don't fly on scab maintained NWA aircraft.



NWA THE TRUE EVIL EMPIRE
User currently offlineDocLightning From United States of America, joined Nov 2005, 18666 posts, RR: 58
Reply 15, posted (5 years 6 months 6 days 3 hours ago) and read 4036 times:



Quoting Rikkus67 (Reply 13):
NW airlines "modernized" interior and bins

The interior of those birds is essentially indistinguishable from that of the 717. Remarkable job they did on those.

The only part of the planes that looks old is the tiny engines. The rest of the plane looks just like...well...a 717.

There's a certain basic look to all jetliners. They are sleek, beautiful machines, but not just to be pretty. They have to look like that in order to fly efficiently. The 707's nose still flies today at the front of every 737. To those of us in the know, we'll always know an old bird when we see one because we can identify them. But if it's kept well-maintained, shiny, and polished, the flying public would never know without a look in that awful puke-green cockpit.


User currently offlineMax Q From United States of America, joined May 2001, 4057 posts, RR: 19
Reply 16, posted (5 years 6 months 6 days 2 hours ago) and read 3772 times:

Good aircraft, but it looks old to me !


The best contribution to safety is a competent Pilot.
User currently offlineSwissA330 From Switzerland, joined Mar 2002, 613 posts, RR: 15
Reply 17, posted (5 years 6 months 6 days 1 hour ago) and read 3609 times:

I always think that one of the main points if an aircraft looks 'old' or not is the engines.

More specifically: bare-metal engines look older to the general public than painted engines.
Also, the general way of the livery displays a youthful image or the opposite.

The very same plane in my eyes may look very old indeed or relatively new just judging by these two:


View Large View Medium
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Photo © Paul Goddard



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Photo © Tim Rees



View Large View Medium
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Photo © Javier Rodriguez - Iberian Spotters



this being from the outside. On the inside it's of course even easier to hide the age by the seats etc you use. I've seaten in A320's that looked older than a 727 from the inside...



swissair/+/ we care
User currently offlineXaphan From United States of America, joined Apr 2003, 129 posts, RR: 2
Reply 18, posted (5 years 6 months 6 days ago) and read 3386 times:

One of the more humorous examples of how passengers perceive "modern" airliners, was shown when several of us were waiting to board a then new Eastern 727-100 in KSDF. Eastern had just begun their rebranding with the "WhisperJet" cs (hockeystick). At the time, Eastern had no jetways at Standiford Field. The first passenger in line to board on the ramp was annoyed when the gate agent announced there would be a 15 minute delay in boarding. He became very vocal about his fear that Eastern might swap equipment, and he would not be able to fly aboard a WhisperJet. He was assured his flight would indeed be the fabled WhisperJet. When the boarding announcement was finally made, and the door opened, he bolted ahead of the rest of us, and ran up the internal steps of a nearby CV-440! Evidently he didn't notice the large propeller right beside the steps he was climbing. Trying not to laugh too loudly, I yelled at him that our flight was over here. I suppose he could have bragged to his friends that he at least got to fly a WhisperProp.

User currently offlineMoek2000 From United States of America, joined Jun 2006, 128 posts, RR: 0
Reply 19, posted (5 years 6 months 5 days 23 hours ago) and read 3044 times:

I think the new NW livery makes the DC-9 look modern regardless of its age...You take 2 DC-9's and put them side-by-side, one with the silver NW livery and the other with Northwest Orient livery and you'll see what I'm talking about...

User currently offlineVanguard737 From United States of America, joined Aug 2001, 680 posts, RR: 4
Reply 20, posted (5 years 6 months 5 days 22 hours ago) and read 2590 times:



Quoting BravoGolf (Reply 7):
Is it me or was there something magical with Douglas and the number 3? You have the DC3
2x3 = DC6 and 3x3 = DC 9. I wonder if the DC(MD) 12 would have worked?

and 8 + 3 = 11, hence: MD-11 !!!!! HAHA

I don't think you're onto something, buddy  Smile



320 717 722 732 733 735 737 738 744 752 753 763 772 DC9 DC10 MD80 B1900 S340 E120 ERJ CRJ CR7
User currently offlineMHG From Germany, joined Dec 2004, 755 posts, RR: 1
Reply 21, posted (5 years 6 months 5 days 22 hours ago) and read 2499 times:



Quoting CrimsonNL (Reply 6):
Keep in mind that 95% of the people on board those NW domestic flights don't give a rip about what plane they're on. We in the Netherlands don't have domestic flights! For most of the travelers there its as normal as taking the train.

As long it has jet engines attached to it people consider it as modern and safe.

There´s no logic in that as we all know. But that´s how general folks look at it.

No matter whether you´re in the U.S. or Europe or anywhere else !



I miss the sound of rolls royce darts and speys
User currently offlineManfredj From United States of America, joined Mar 2007, 1132 posts, RR: 0
Reply 22, posted (5 years 6 months 5 days 21 hours ago) and read 2423 times:

The -15 series looks very vintage, the -50 looks like an MD-80. If everything in between is painted in modern colors, they fit very well among todays modern aircraft.

I would prefer to fly a DC-9 over an A320,19, 18, 21. I also prefer it over a 73/6/7/8, but not a 900ER.



757: The last of the best
User currently offlineSpacecadet From United States of America, joined Sep 2001, 3517 posts, RR: 12
Reply 23, posted (5 years 6 months 5 days 9 hours ago) and read 1733 times:

The DC-9's look modern to you because they are still flying and you are used to seeing them. The fact that they're wearing modern liveries doesn't hurt.

You would feel the same way about the BAC-111 or the DC-8 or hell, the Comet if they were still flying around in large numbers today and wearing modern color schemes.

Many airplanes designed in the 1960's are still flying around and they don't look "vintage" either simply because they're your whole frame of reference. That's what you know as "modern" because that's aviation today.



I'm tired of being a wanna-be league bowler. I wanna be a league bowler!
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