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Non Allied Airlines In West-Berlin Pre 1990  
User currently offlineColumba From Germany, joined Dec 2004, 7078 posts, RR: 4
Posted (6 years 1 week 3 days 18 hours ago) and read 3483 times:

In a German Forum I saw a picture of a SAS Dc 7 in Tempelhof and which made me wonder:

How came that a non allied airline could land in West Berlin when only airlines of France, Great Britain and the US were allowed to fly to West-Berlin ?
According to the photographer also JAT, KLM and Central African Airways (Viscount 748, VP-YND, Tempelhof June 28th 1956) have been in THF.

How was that possible in that day and age ?

PS
Link to the picture you have to be registerd though to see it:
http://www.flugzeugforum.de/forum/showthread.php?t=28602&page=24


It will forever be a McDonnell Douglas MD 80 , Boeing MD 80 sounds so wrong
17 replies: All unread, jump to last
 
User currently offlineJohningrr From United States of America, joined Sep 2008, 19 posts, RR: 0
Reply 1, posted (6 years 1 week 3 days 11 hours ago) and read 3319 times:

I think it had to do with regularly scheduled flights versus charter flights. This is what I remember from "back in the day" when I was an exchange student in 1986 and 1987 in Stuttgart, and we used to fly to TXL on BA.

User currently offlineViscount724 From Switzerland, joined Oct 2006, 25652 posts, RR: 22
Reply 2, posted (6 years 1 week 3 days 7 hours ago) and read 3267 times:

The only A.net photos of aircraft at THF prior to 1990 without U.S., British or French registrations (civil or military) appear to be two LOT An-24s that were both hijacked in 1981 and 1982.


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Photo © Peter Seemann
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Photo © Peter Seemann



User currently offlineSimairlinenet From United States of America, joined Oct 2005, 917 posts, RR: 2
Reply 3, posted (6 years 1 week 3 days 7 hours ago) and read 3241 times:



Quoting Columba (Thread starter):
How came that a non allied airline could land in West Berlin when only airlines of France, Great Britain and the US were allowed to fly to West-Berlin ?

Only French, British, and American carriers were allowed to fly domestic flights to West Berlin.


User currently offlineViscount724 From Switzerland, joined Oct 2006, 25652 posts, RR: 22
Reply 4, posted (6 years 1 week 3 days 6 hours ago) and read 3205 times:



Quoting Simairlinenet (Reply 3):
Quoting Columba (Thread starter):
How came that a non allied airline could land in West Berlin when only airlines of France, Great Britain and the US were allowed to fly to West-Berlin ?

Only French, British, and American carriers were allowed to fly domestic flights to West Berlin.

As far as I know, that restriction applied to ALL flights, domestic and international, to/from West Berlin prior to reunification in 1990. If memory correct, virtually the only international flights to/from West Berlin then were to/from the UK and France.


User currently offlineColumba From Germany, joined Dec 2004, 7078 posts, RR: 4
Reply 5, posted (6 years 1 week 3 days 1 hour ago) and read 3140 times:



Quoting Simairlinenet (Reply 3):
Only French, British, and American carriers were allowed to fly domestic flights to West Berlin.


No, this had not nothing to do with domestic flights all airlines that were flying to West Berlin had either be American, British or French.

Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 4):
If memory correct, virtually the only international flights to/from West Berlin then were to/from the UK and France.

No, I flew with Dan Air to Portugal, BA to Spain, Air Berlin USA to Spain, Portugal, Turkey, Pan Am to Turkey and Spain etc...

I grew up in West-Berlin and can remember all my flights from my childhood.



It will forever be a McDonnell Douglas MD 80 , Boeing MD 80 sounds so wrong
User currently offlineTango-Bravo From United States of America, joined Jun 2001, 3806 posts, RR: 29
Reply 6, posted (6 years 1 week 2 days 9 hours ago) and read 3011 times:



Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 4):
If memory correct, virtually the only international flights to/from West Berlin then were to/from the UK and France.

And according to pre-1990 timetables in my collection, it appears that same-plane flights between West Berlin and international points were required to make one or more intermediate stop(s) somewhere in West Germany (such as CGN, DUS or HAJ). Non-stop flights from West Berlin to points outside of West Germany were apparently not allowed, at least on the scheduled services of BE, AF and PA.



Quoting Columba (Thread starter):
In a German Forum I saw a picture of a SAS Dc 7 in Tempelhof and which made me wonder

The aircraft may have been operating on lease to BE, AF or PA. Also, there was a time when other airlines were also allowed to operate services within West Germany, SAS and Sabena being among them ...although I cannot confirm whether any of the airlines other than BE, AF and PA were allowed to serve West Berlin on a scheduled basis.

SAS may have been considered an airline of a nation aligned with the Allies in WWII due to its association with Denmark and Norway. Although both spent nearly the entire war as nations conquered and occupied by Nazi Germany, both (like France) had strong resistance movements that were vital to the Allies in the outcome of the war.


User currently offlineViscount724 From Switzerland, joined Oct 2006, 25652 posts, RR: 22
Reply 7, posted (6 years 1 week 2 days 9 hours ago) and read 3008 times:



Quoting Columba (Reply 5):
Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 4):
If memory correct, virtually the only international flights to/from West Berlin then were to/from the UK and France.


No, I flew with Dan Air to Portugal, BA to Spain, Air Berlin USA to Spain, Portugal, Turkey, Pan Am to Turkey and Spain etc...

I should have limited my comments to scheduled flights. Weren't the interenational flights you mention charters?


User currently offlineColumba From Germany, joined Dec 2004, 7078 posts, RR: 4
Reply 8, posted (6 years 1 week 2 days 1 hour ago) and read 2909 times:



Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 7):
Weren't the interenational flights you mention charters?

That I don´t know for sure, I just know that my last flight with Pan Am was in 1989 or 1990 with an A310 to Izmir in Turkey.
I was in the cockpit and the pilot gave me the Jeppsen Card of the flight which I sadly have lost a few years ago  Sad



It will forever be a McDonnell Douglas MD 80 , Boeing MD 80 sounds so wrong
User currently offlinePanHAM From Germany, joined May 2005, 9532 posts, RR: 31
Reply 9, posted (6 years 1 week 2 days ago) and read 2883 times:

The stop in West Germany was not required. I flew THF-LHR on BE in Bac1-11s several times. PA had a 707/DC8 service to JFK ex TXL (even when THF was still operational for the IGS services) and the charter services to the sun destinations did all go non stop. That was usually UK or US carriers like Dan Air and Modern Air (CV-990!!!)

The only requirement was the usae of the air corridors, the corridors were restricted in width and height,

An SK DC7 - if it ever was in West Berlin, needed a US registration to fly there.



E's passed on! That parrot is no more! He has ceased to be! E's expired and gone to meet 'is maker!
User currently offlineColumba From Germany, joined Dec 2004, 7078 posts, RR: 4
Reply 10, posted (6 years 1 week 1 day 23 hours ago) and read 2842 times:



Quoting PanHAM (Reply 9):
An SK DC7 - if it ever was in West Berlin

Since I don´t know who has the copyright on the photo I can not post it here, the picture shows a SAS Dc 7 under the typical roof of the airfield in Tempelhof.



It will forever be a McDonnell Douglas MD 80 , Boeing MD 80 sounds so wrong
User currently offlinePanHAM From Germany, joined May 2005, 9532 posts, RR: 31
Reply 11, posted (6 years 1 week 1 day 22 hours ago) and read 2784 times:



Quoting Columba (Reply 10):
Since I don´t know who has the copyright on the photo I can not post it here, the picture shows a SAS Dc 7 under the typical roof of the airfield in Tempelhof.

I believe you, but without US reg the aircraft could not fly there. The Russian would not have allowed a hi-jack to THF either, they would have forced the a/c down on one of the military fields in East Germany. The LOT flights diverting to THF was another case due to the short distance between SXF and THF, there was no reaction time for the Soviets.



E's passed on! That parrot is no more! He has ceased to be! E's expired and gone to meet 'is maker!
User currently onlineN747PE From United States of America, joined Jul 2005, 107 posts, RR: 0
Reply 12, posted (6 years 1 week 1 day 21 hours ago) and read 2728 times:

I lived in Berlin during the unshed. diversions of the LOT flights. The joke at school was LOT ment Land On THF.

User currently offlineZRH From Switzerland, joined Nov 1999, 5569 posts, RR: 36
Reply 13, posted (6 years 1 week 1 day 18 hours ago) and read 2648 times:



Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 4):
If memory correct, virtually the only international flights to/from West Berlin then were to/from the UK and France.

This is not correct. PanAm flew scheduled flights between ZRH and TXL with B 727 for years.


User currently offlineSimairlinenet From United States of America, joined Oct 2005, 917 posts, RR: 2
Reply 14, posted (6 years 1 week 1 day 18 hours ago) and read 2609 times:



Quoting ZRH" class=quote target=_blank>ZRH (Reply 13):
Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 4):
If memory correct, virtually the only international flights to/from West Berlin then were to/from the UK and France.

This is not correct. PanAm flew scheduled flights between ZRH and TXL with B 727 for years.

AMS as well--1973 timetable.


User currently offlineTango-Bravo From United States of America, joined Jun 2001, 3806 posts, RR: 29
Reply 15, posted (6 years 1 week 1 day 13 hours ago) and read 2520 times:



Quoting PanHAM (Reply 9):
An SK DC7 - if it ever was in West Berlin, needed a US registration to fly there.

Although... weren't Air France and BEA allowed to serve West Berlin with F- and G- registered aircraft?

as evidenced by...
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Photo © Jürgen Lutz



User currently onlineTheSonntag From Germany, joined Jun 2005, 3631 posts, RR: 29
Reply 16, posted (6 years 1 week 1 day 13 hours ago) and read 2515 times:



Quoting Tango-Bravo (Reply 15):

Although... weren't Air France and BEA allowed to serve West Berlin with F- and G- registered aircraft?

Well, they had the same rights, of course, as UK, France and US were equal winners of WW2 according to the treaties.


User currently offlineViscount724 From Switzerland, joined Oct 2006, 25652 posts, RR: 22
Reply 17, posted (6 years 1 week 1 day 13 hours ago) and read 2508 times:



Quoting ZRH" class=quote target=_blank>ZRH (Reply 13):
Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 4):
If memory correct, virtually the only international flights to/from West Berlin then were to/from the UK and France.

This is not correct. PanAm flew scheduled flights between ZRH and TXL with B 727 for years.

That's why I said "virtually" (meaning almost). I knew there were a few exceptions but not many.


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