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MD-11's Ever At LGA?  
User currently offlineBrucek From United States of America, joined Nov 2004, 262 posts, RR: 0
Posted (5 years 10 months 2 weeks 4 days 19 hours ago) and read 5857 times:

I believe that the DC-10 was designed with being able to operate into and out of LGA, as this was one of the criteria laid down by AA, the launch customer. I’m not sure if the DC-10 ever did operate from LGA, though.

If it’s correct about the DC-10, was this a factor in the design of the MD-11? And if so, did any ever operate into and out of LGA?

Thanks, Bruce.

50 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently onlineSTT757 From United States of America, joined Mar 2000, 16860 posts, RR: 51
Reply 1, posted (5 years 10 months 2 weeks 4 days 18 hours ago) and read 5837 times:

No, besides the weight the wingspan does not allow for adequate gate access.


Eastern Air lines flt # 701, EWR-MCO Boeing 757
User currently offlineViscount724 From Switzerland, joined Oct 2006, 25170 posts, RR: 22
Reply 2, posted (5 years 10 months 2 weeks 4 days 18 hours ago) and read 5828 times:



Quoting Brucek (Thread starter):
I believe that the DC-10 was designed with being able to operate into and out of LGA, as this was one of the criteria laid down by AA, the launch customer. I’m not sure if the DC-10 ever did operate from LGA, though.

Yes, both the DC-10 and L-1011 were designed to operate from LGA and they did for many years. United, American and National all operated DC-10s and TWA, Delta and Eastern operated L1011s from LGA.


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Quoting Brucek (Thread starter):
If it’s correct about the DC-10, was this a factor in the design of the MD-11? And if so, did any ever operate into and out of LGA?

No, being able to operate from LGA definitely wasn't an MD-11 design criteria and I doubt if an MD-11 ever visited LGA.


User currently offlineA342 From Germany, joined Jul 2005, 4681 posts, RR: 3
Reply 3, posted (5 years 10 months 2 weeks 4 days 18 hours ago) and read 5785 times:



Quoting STT757 (Reply 1):
No, besides the weight the wingspan does not allow for adequate gate access.

IIRC the B764ER was designed with LGA in mind. It's wingspan is actually a few inches longer than that of the MD-11.



Exceptions confirm the rule.
User currently offlineCAL764 From United States of America, joined May 2008, 377 posts, RR: 0
Reply 4, posted (5 years 10 months 2 weeks 4 days 14 hours ago) and read 5540 times:



Quoting A342 (Reply 3):
B764ER

DL to ATL



1. Fly to Win 2. Fund Future 3. Reliability 4. Work Together CO: Work Hard, Fly Right...
User currently offlineWannabe From United States of America, joined Jun 1999, 677 posts, RR: 3
Reply 5, posted (5 years 10 months 2 weeks 4 days 13 hours ago) and read 5424 times:

I flew on both L-1011's (Delta and Eastern) and DC-10's (American) back in the 70's and early 80's. It was also great sport to sit in the upper deck of Shea Stadium and watch them inbound to Runway 31.

User currently offlineSeaBosDca From United States of America, joined Sep 2007, 5409 posts, RR: 4
Reply 6, posted (5 years 10 months 2 weeks 4 days 12 hours ago) and read 5385 times:

DC-10-10 MTOW: 430,000 lbs.
MD-11 MTOW (lightest available): 602,500 lbs.

Hope this helps...  Smile


User currently onlineSTT757 From United States of America, joined Mar 2000, 16860 posts, RR: 51
Reply 7, posted (5 years 10 months 2 weeks 4 days 12 hours ago) and read 5358 times:



Quoting Wannabe (Reply 5):
I flew on both L-1011's (Delta and Eastern) and DC-10's (American) back in the 70's and early 80's. It was also great sport to sit in the upper deck of Shea Stadium and watch them inbound to Runway 31.

Christmas week 1989 My family and I flew on a Eastern Airlines L-1011 LGA-MIA, we were delayed several hours and eventually took off in near blizzard conditions. The in flight movie was "Honey I shrunk the kids", and the meal was Lasagna.



Eastern Air lines flt # 701, EWR-MCO Boeing 757
User currently offlineViscount724 From Switzerland, joined Oct 2006, 25170 posts, RR: 22
Reply 8, posted (5 years 10 months 2 weeks 4 days 11 hours ago) and read 5266 times:



Quoting SeaBosDca (Reply 6):
DC-10-10 MTOW: 430,000 lbs.
MD-11 MTOW (lightest available): 602,500 lbs.

DC-10s and L1011s at LGA wouldn't have been close to MTOW considering the LGA perimeter rule. LGA-DFW (1207 nm) and LGA-MIA (953 nm) were probably about the longest sectors operated by these types. For the first couple of years after AA put the DC-10 into service they used them on some much shorter sectors from LGA including BUF and YYZ. Eastern also used the L1011 LGA-YUL.

The April 1974 OAG shows about 16 daily nonstop DC-10 and L1011 departures to LGA from ATL, BUF, CLT, ORD, FLL, MIA, YUL, TPA, YYZ, PBI.

By 1983 the 767 and A300 had replaced the DC-10 and L1011 on several routes, although AA had 4 daily DC-10s DFW-LGA in July 1983 (plus 3 767-200s and 1 727-200). TW also had 2 daily L1011s STL-LGA in 1983.


User currently offlineBrucek From United States of America, joined Nov 2004, 262 posts, RR: 0
Reply 9, posted (5 years 10 months 2 weeks 4 days 10 hours ago) and read 5230 times:

Thanks for all the replies.

Bruce.


User currently offlineSpacecadet From United States of America, joined Sep 2001, 3624 posts, RR: 12
Reply 10, posted (5 years 10 months 2 weeks 3 days 22 hours ago) and read 4999 times:

I think the reason for the MD-11 not appearing at LGA is more economic than technical. The 767-400 is literally almost exactly the same size as the MD-11 (within 1 foot in any dimension), and the 767-400 operated at LGA just fine. The weights between the two planes are a bit different, but total weight is not really the main restriction at LGA - it's weight distribution among the wheels that's the restriction. And the MD-11 has an extra center bogey.

By the time the MD-11 was being purchased, airlines were already scaling back widebody use on domestic routes. And not many US airlines bought them to begin with. Delta is the only airline that was flying airliners that large out of LGA during the MD-11's heyday, but they chose to fly 767's there instead, probably because the MD-11 would be a lot less efficient on the relatively short routes that they were flying out of LGA.

That said, I would not be surprised if MD-11's *have* made the odd appearance at LGA, as equipment subs or whatever. But I don't think they were ever in scheduled service, simply because widebody use by that time was not nearly as common on domestic routes (and the MD-11 was never the most popular widebody to begin with).



I'm tired of being a wanna-be league bowler. I wanna be a league bowler!
User currently offlineCatIII From United States of America, joined Mar 2008, 3029 posts, RR: 4
Reply 11, posted (5 years 10 months 2 weeks 3 days 20 hours ago) and read 4893 times:



Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 2):
Yes, both the DC-10 and L-1011 were designed to operate from LGA and they did for many years. United, American and National all operated DC-10s and TWA, Delta and Eastern operated L1011s from LGA.

Boy do I miss those days...


User currently offlineQuickmover From United States of America, joined Mar 2004, 2494 posts, RR: 0
Reply 12, posted (5 years 10 months 2 weeks 3 days 20 hours ago) and read 4853 times:



Quoting SeaBosDca (Reply 6):
DC-10-10 MTOW: 430,000 lbs.
MD-11 MTOW (lightest available): 602,500 lbs.

Good grief!

What is it different between a MD11 and DC10 to account for almost 200,000 lbs? I thought these aircraft were similar, but evidently not.


User currently offlineTimz From United States of America, joined Sep 1999, 6819 posts, RR: 7
Reply 13, posted (5 years 10 months 2 weeks 3 days 20 hours ago) and read 4801 times:



Quoting Quickmover (Reply 12):
What is it different between a MD11 and DC10 to account for almost 200,000 lbs?

Better to compare the MD11 to the DC10-30, which could gross... 570,000 lb? Or was it 555,000?


User currently offlineQuickmover From United States of America, joined Mar 2004, 2494 posts, RR: 0
Reply 14, posted (5 years 10 months 2 weeks 3 days 19 hours ago) and read 4775 times:



Quoting Timz (Reply 13):
Better to compare the MD11 to the DC10-30, which could gross... 570,000 lb? Or was it 555,000?

OK.

So the -30 was a stretch version of the DC10?


User currently offlineCatIII From United States of America, joined Mar 2008, 3029 posts, RR: 4
Reply 15, posted (5 years 10 months 2 weeks 3 days 19 hours ago) and read 4745 times:



Quoting Quickmover (Reply 12):
What is it different between a MD11 and DC10 to account for almost 200,000 lbs? I thought these aircraft were similar, but evidently not.

Well, the MD-11 was a bigger airplane.

DC-10

Length: 170 ft 6 in (51.97 m); Height: 58 ft 1 in (17.7 m); Span: 155 ft 4 in OR 165 ft 4 in depending on the variant.

MD-11

Length: 192 ft 5 in (58.6 m); Height: 57 ft 9 in (17.60 m); Span: 169 ft 6 in (51.70 m)


User currently offlineSpacecadet From United States of America, joined Sep 2001, 3624 posts, RR: 12
Reply 16, posted (5 years 10 months 2 weeks 3 days 19 hours ago) and read 4733 times:



Quoting Quickmover (Reply 12):
Good grief!

What is it different between a MD11 and DC10 to account for almost 200,000 lbs? I thought these aircraft were similar, but evidently not.

Guys, you're talking about MTOW. Not empty weight. MTOW is as much a function of power and lift and strength as it is capacity or how heavy the plane is when empty. Any plane can weigh as much as you want it to weigh if you just give it big enough fuel tanks. The question is what the maximum weight is that it can actually take off. The MD-11 had enough revisions that it could carry more live weight than a DC-10.

If you're just talking similarities between planes, then you have to compare the DC-10-30 or 40 to the MD-11, and they are not much different in empty weight.

I'm not sure DC-10-30's ever flew into LGA, though, although they probably could have (nothing comes up in a Google search yea or nay). I seem to remember reading somewhere that that was the reason for the extra bogey under the body, though, for weight distribution on LGA's runways, even though nobody ever flew the -30 there, or at least not regularly. There's always this disputed photo:


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I don't think that's LGA, though.

Bottom line about the MD-11 is this: its physical dimensions are exactly the same as the 767-400, and its weight per wheel was probably the same or less than the 767-400 (with the extra center wheel). So I don't see any reason why it couldn't have flown into LGA.



I'm tired of being a wanna-be league bowler. I wanna be a league bowler!
User currently offlineAtlanta From United States of America, joined Jun 2008, 473 posts, RR: 1
Reply 17, posted (5 years 10 months 2 weeks 3 days 19 hours ago) and read 4715 times:



Quoting STT757 (Reply 7):
Christmas week 1989 My family and I flew on a Eastern Airlines L-1011 LGA-MIA, we were delayed several hours and eventually took off in near blizzard conditions. The in flight movie was "Honey I shrunk the kids", and the meal was Lasagna.

Wow that's ironic, did you like the EA lasagna?

Before DL had the shuttle routes I used to fly EA's shuttle BOS-LGA at least twice a week on the A300 and 727 boy do I miss that..  cloudnine 



Welcome To The New Delta- The World's Largest Airline
User currently offlineIkramerica From United States of America, joined May 2005, 21511 posts, RR: 60
Reply 18, posted (5 years 10 months 2 weeks 3 days 19 hours ago) and read 4701 times:



Quoting Spacecadet (Reply 16):
Bottom line about the MD-11 is this: its physical dimensions are exactly the same as the 767-400, and its weight per wheel was probably the same or less than the 767-400 (with the extra center wheel). So I don't see any reason why it couldn't have flown into LGA.

I would wager that FedEx has brought the MD11 into LGA before...



Of all the things to worry about... the Wookie has no pants.
User currently offlineTimz From United States of America, joined Sep 1999, 6819 posts, RR: 7
Reply 19, posted (5 years 10 months 2 weeks 3 days 16 hours ago) and read 4567 times:



Quoting Ikramerica (Reply 18):
I would wager that FedEx has brought the MD11 into LGA before

Does FedEx fly into LGA at all?


User currently offlineViscount724 From Switzerland, joined Oct 2006, 25170 posts, RR: 22
Reply 20, posted (5 years 10 months 2 weeks 3 days 16 hours ago) and read 4536 times:



Quoting Quickmover (Reply 14):
So the -30 was a stretch version of the DC10?

No, the -30 (and -40) had the same size fuselage as the -10 but longer wingspan, more fuel capacity, more powerful engines,and much higher MTOW and range. National's four DC-10-30s, mainly used on their MIA-Europe routes, occasionally appeared at LGA.


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User currently onlineUltimateDelta From United States of America, joined Sep 2007, 2118 posts, RR: 6
Reply 21, posted (5 years 10 months 2 weeks 3 days 16 hours ago) and read 4529 times:



Quoting SeaBosDca (Reply 6):
MD-11 MTOW (lightest available): 602,500 lbs.

Wow. That would crush the dock that the runway was built on (at least I think there's one- can anyone confirm this?)



Midwest Airlines- 1984-2010
User currently offlineLexy From United States of America, joined Jun 2006, 2515 posts, RR: 8
Reply 22, posted (5 years 10 months 2 weeks 3 days 16 hours ago) and read 4489 times:



Quoting Timz (Reply 19):
Does FedEx fly into LGA at all?

JFK I do believe.



Nashville, Tennessee KBNA
User currently offlineATA L1011 From United States of America, joined Feb 2001, 1383 posts, RR: 6
Reply 23, posted (5 years 10 months 2 weeks 3 days 15 hours ago) and read 4466 times:



Quoting Spacecadet (Reply 10):

I do recall reading someplace regarding the weight distribution is why the A300 was not flown there long, I read that it was putting too much stress on some pier/beam.



Treat others as you expect to be treated!
User currently offlineN62NA From United States of America, joined Aug 2003, 4452 posts, RR: 7
Reply 24, posted (5 years 10 months 2 weeks 3 days 13 hours ago) and read 4414 times:



Quoting UltimateDelta (Reply 21):
Wow. That would crush the dock that the runway was built on (at least I think there's one- can anyone confirm this?)

Yes, the "dock" is actually a pier which is on the northern and western ends of the LGA runways.


25 TrijetsRMissed : These figures are a bit off. Going by memory I can tell you that the MD-11 is 200 ft in length, while the DC-10 was about 20 ft shorter. I think a li
26 CatIII : According to the Boeing website, the MD-11 is 192 feet 5 inches from nosecone to tail cone. The number you reference is the measurement from the nose
27 AA777223 : The 764 may be similar to the MD-11 in many ways, but it can't be all... Most MD-11s were nine abreast, most 767s are 7 abreast. So fuselage width is
28 RFields5421 : Current KLGA configuration: Runway Information Runway 13/31 Dimensions: 7003 x 150 ft. / 2135 x 46 m Surface: asphalt/concrete/grooved, in good condit
29 Spacecadet : You guys realize all this info is right here on this site, right? 767-400 length: 201ft, 4in 767-400 wingspan: 170ft, 4in MD-11 length: 200 ft, 11in
30 UltimateDelta : Tha's what I meant. Thanks for the info.
31 ATA L1011 : None of those Tristars are 10's went out of LGA any where near MGTW, if they did they would be in the water or in barrelling across a freewyay. Heavy
32 Josh32121 : That is a DC-10-10. -10 series did not have the center bogey because they didn't need it like the heavier -30 series and the MD-11.
33 FXramper : No MD11's at LGA. No. Yes. #1612 IND 22:23L (02:23Z) 10/23/2008 12:50L (04:50Z) MD10-10 #3625 IND 08:50L (12:50Z) 10/23/2008 11:06L (15:06Z) MD10-10 #
34 Viscount724 : That photo is definitely LGA. I have compared it to several other photos taken at the same gate position. And it's definitely a DC-10-30 as you can s
35 Josh32121 : If this is true (which is obviously entirely possible), why would an aircraft choose to land without all available gear deployed to distribute the we
36 ATA L1011 : Its true, JAL used this practice on there DC-10's alot when they were operating short domestic runs. One less item for maintenance and saves on weigh
37 Viscount724 : Sorry, that's not correct. As mentioned in the previous reply you can just make out the N83NA registration if you blow up the photo and that was defi
38 EXAAUADL : The A300 flew in to LGA quite a bit, It was used on the Shuttle for a bit to BOS, not to DCA.
39 ATA L1011 : I know it did, but after they realized that is was putting alot of stress on that pier do to the way its gears were it did nort for long. There were
40 TrijetsRMissed : I think we're all aware of the aircraft database. But thanks for posting the figures, they proved my point.
41 Timz : No one at LGA knew how heavy A300s were, until one day somebody told them? Have A300s been outlawed ever since? Is that rule published anywhere?
42 RFields5421 : The rule is right above - 360,000 lbs max weight for a double tandam main gear allowed on the runways at LGA - including the overwater extensions. Th
43 Jfk777 : MD-11 at LGA is overkill, ITS a huge airplane. IF it could be done, why you you want to do it ? MD-11 are a long range DC-10-30 derivative operated mo
44 Cubastar : Delta also operated their leased DC-10's into LGA while they were waiting on their delayed L-1011's to be delivered. (Rolls Royce engines/bankrupkcy)
45 Post contains images Viscount724 : JL DC-10-40s being used on domestic routes with the center gear retracted.
46 Timz : So no rule prohibiting A300s-- they just have to stay below 360,000 lb? (Which wouldn't be hard.) If you pick an OAG at random from 1980-1990 I'd say
47 Post contains links ATA L1011 : I was referring to what the guy in post 14 on this thread was saying, thanks. http://www.airliners.net/aviation-forums/tech_ops/read.main/235713/ "II
48 LGA777 : The A-300 was operated at LGA by EA on many routes including BOS, ATL, PBI, FLL, MIA, and MCO. By PA to MIA and BOS, and by CO to IAH. It has also be
49 CatIII : What ever was the reason they wanted such a large plane on the Shuttle?
50 RFields5421 : Carry more people. I know that large an aircraft seems to be a huge pain for something like the shuttle - but I've flown the B747 shuttle Tokyo-Osaka
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