LAXintl From United States of America, joined May 2000, 22055 posts, RR: 51 Reply 1, posted (4 years 7 months 1 week 3 days 19 hours ago) and read 5966 times:
Well BA uses 3 dedicated GSS 747-400F for cargo flying out of STN.
They used be BA logo'd, but now sport GSS own paint scheme.
TristarSteve From Sweden, joined Nov 2005, 3693 posts, RR: 34 Reply 2, posted (4 years 7 months 1 week 3 days 19 hours ago) and read 5948 times:
The rest of BAs cargo fleet is mostly provided by long term wet lease aircraft. BA once bought a B747-200 freighter, but sold it to CX two years later. There was a thread about it being scrapped a month ago.
LAXintl From United States of America, joined May 2000, 22055 posts, RR: 51 Reply 3, posted (4 years 7 months 1 week 3 days 19 hours ago) and read 5896 times:
Bongodog1964 From United Kingdom, joined Oct 2006, 3018 posts, RR: 2 Reply 4, posted (4 years 7 months 1 week 3 days 18 hours ago) and read 5726 times:
I would imagine that one of the main reasons why BA and other carriers choose not to own their own freighters is that it is less expensive to wet lease capacity.
Of course freight doesn't have eyes to see that it is being carried by a 3rd party; passengers might notice that their BA service wasn't seamless, and someone elses plane was involved; but for freight, all the customer sees is BA at either end.
BlueFlyer From United States of America, joined Jan 2006, 3125 posts, RR: 1 Reply 5, posted (4 years 7 months 1 week 3 days 17 hours ago) and read 5615 times:
Quoting LAXintl (Reply 1): Well BA uses 3 dedicated GSS 747-400F for cargo flying out of STN
And occasionally an EAT A300.
Quoting Bongodog1964 (Reply 8): I would imagine that one of the main reasons why BA and other carriers choose not to own their own freighters is that it is less expensive to wet lease capacity.
Bingo. The costs of operating a small fleet of freighters do not outweigh the benefits, and this is where carriers such as Atlas, Southern Air and Air Atlanta come in, operating ACMI cargo flights for passenger airlines such as QF, NZ, MU or EY.
GSS is a joint-venture between BA and Atlas.
And probably lots more only BA Cargo know about.
For example twice a week, on Wed and Sat a DHL A300 leaves ARN on a round trip to the UK on a wet lease for BA. It has a DHL flight number and no one would know.
B747-4U3 From United Kingdom, joined Jan 2002, 983 posts, RR: 0 Reply 7, posted (4 years 7 months 1 week 3 days 15 hours ago) and read 5435 times:
I think BA have major agreements with other Cargo airlines as well, which reduces the need for dedicated freighters.
I am sure it was stated on here somewhere that BA have some sort of agreement (code-share or buying capacity) on Korean Air Cargo's London to Seoul flights.
Don't forget that BA also carry a lot of cargo in the holds of their regular pax aircraft.
N328KF From United States of America, joined May 2004, 6222 posts, RR: 3 Reply 8, posted (4 years 7 months 1 week 3 days 15 hours ago) and read 5387 times:
How much cargo does BA send to ORD? My desk is just a few hundred meters from the giant BA World Cargo facility at ORD. I am surprised that they have the volume to justify such a building.
When they call the roll in the Senate, the Senators do not know whether to answer 'Present' or 'Not guilty.' T.Roosevelt
Bongodog1964 From United Kingdom, joined Oct 2006, 3018 posts, RR: 2 Reply 10, posted (4 years 7 months 1 week 3 days 13 hours ago) and read 5282 times:
Quoting Readytotaxi (Reply 13): Could some explain the term "Wet lease", and I suppose there is a "Dry lease"
Thanks
With a wet lease, you hire the plane complete with crew, servicing etc, all the customer does is supply the cargo (freight or passengers) and pay the bill
With a dry lease, the customer rents the plane and supplies their own crew etc
Readytotaxi From United Kingdom, joined Dec 2006, 2596 posts, RR: 3 Reply 11, posted (4 years 7 months 1 week 3 days 12 hours ago) and read 5144 times:
Daleaholic From UK - England, joined Oct 2005, 3184 posts, RR: 15 Reply 12, posted (4 years 7 months 1 week 3 days 10 hours ago) and read 5010 times:
BA must be making enough money from freight on PAX flights... Remember somebody saying that the freight on passenger flights can often make the airline more money than the actual people sat above it.
Religion is an illusion of childhood... Outgrown under proper education.
TristarSteve From Sweden, joined Nov 2005, 3693 posts, RR: 34 Reply 13, posted (4 years 7 months 1 week 3 days 9 hours ago) and read 4859 times:
Quoting Daleaholic (Reply 16): Remember somebody saying that the freight on passenger flights can often make the airline more money than the actual people sat above it.
Last week we had a scheduled B763. The aircraft was not available, so OPS replaced it with an A321. This could carry the pax, but not the freight. Cargo pointed out that they had 13.5 tons freight booked, and OPS changed the A321 to a B777, which meant a whole crew was called from standby, just for this freight. Must have been worth it.
1peter From Netherlands, joined Jul 2005, 147 posts, RR: 0 Reply 14, posted (4 years 7 months 1 week 3 days 7 hours ago) and read 4412 times:
As has already been mentioned BA uses GSS to provide it's dedicated longhaul freighter capacity, operating to places such ATL, ORD, IAH, FRA, STN, HKG, DEL and BOM to name a few. In addition to that capacity is also purchased with JL, KE and BR as a way of accessing into the respective markets that these airlines serve without the need for BA having to supply it's own freighter equipment.
Furthermore BA also buys space ex LHR on the 3 above mentioned carrier's again to provide more options for it's global customers ex London, although one of the 3 is hardly ever used ex LHR!!!
DHL do provide quite an extensive schedule across Europe for BA, that over the last couple of years has been extended to include more destinations and more frequencies during the week supplementing weekend services.
As far as BA using it's own aircraft and not leasing........well the DHL services were started due to a reducing 767 fleet and to maintain a strong cargo presence in some markets. The longhaul fleet was fairly recently evaluated, options were looked at with a view to BA buying freighters out right against the GSS deal......however the GSS way was seen to be the way forward and has been extended for the next few years.
Airlines flown; AA, AC, AY, BA, BD, BY, CX, DA, DP, IB, KL, LH, LA, LP, MA & MH
VV701 From United Kingdom, joined Aug 2005, 6628 posts, RR: 17 Reply 15, posted (4 years 7 months 1 week 3 days 5 hours ago) and read 3820 times:
Quoting B747-4U3 (Reply 11): I think BA have major agreements with other Cargo airlines as well, which reduces the need for dedicated freighters.
As 1peter reports (Reply 18) BA World Cargo buys space on MD-11F BR flights (LHR-TPE on Days 6 and 7 routed through DXB), and on 747F JL flights (LHR-NRT routed direct (Day 3), through AMS (Day 5) and through ANC (Day 7)) and KE flights (LHR-ICN (Day 4 and 6)).
Quoting 1peter (Reply 18): DHL do provide quite an extensive schedule across Europe for BA
I believe DHL provide BA with A300F cargo flights from LHR to FRA (Days 2,3,4,6,7), MXP (Days 3, 4, 5, 6, 7), ARN (Days 3, 6), BCN (Day 6), MAD (Day 6), OPO (Day 6), CDG (Day6), AMS (Day 6), LEJ (Day 6, 7), MUC (Day 6) and BRU (Day 7). I believe but am not certain that most of the weekday services are routed through BRU or CGN but that most of the Saturday and Sunday flights are direct.
The 3 GSS 744Fs exclusively operated for BA World Cargo operate out of STN to the Far East, India, the Middle East and the USA. They used to also fly to South Africa stopping at OPO on the northerly leg but that route has been discontinued.
The GSS flights to ATL (2 weekly) are routed STN-FRA-PIK-ATL-STN. The weekly flight to IAH is routed STN-FRA-PIK-ORD-IAH-STN-DMM-DXB. The aircraft then flies on to HKG and returns to STN via MAA.
Finally as I understand it BA World Cargo has a lot of say as to where the BA passenger short-haul 763s fly to but not the actual flight timing.
Also, an aircraft on a wet-lease will be operated on the owner's AOC (Air Operating Certificate) while an aircraft on a dry-lease will be operated on the renter's AOC.
1peter From Netherlands, joined Jul 2005, 147 posts, RR: 0 Reply 17, posted (4 years 7 months 1 week 2 days 21 hours ago) and read 2497 times:
Quoting VV701 (Reply 19): I believe DHL provide BA with A300F cargo flights from LHR to FRA (Days 2,3,4,6,7), MXP (Days 3, 4, 5, 6, 7), ARN (Days 3, 6), BCN (Day 6), MAD (Day 6), OPO (Day 6), CDG (Day6), AMS (Day 6), LEJ (Day 6, 7), MUC (Day 6) and BRU (Day 7). I believe but am not certain that most of the weekday services are routed through BRU or CGN but that most of the Saturday and Sunday flights are direct.
Correct although some of those services mentioned do operate ex LTN and not LHR and in the event of technical delays inbound to LHR will generally arrive in LTN.
Airlines flown; AA, AC, AY, BA, BD, BY, CX, DA, DP, IB, KL, LH, LA, LP, MA & MH
TristarSteve From Sweden, joined Nov 2005, 3693 posts, RR: 34 Reply 19, posted (4 years 7 months 1 week 2 days 18 hours ago) and read 2231 times:
Quoting VV701 (Reply 19): I believe DHL provide BA with A300F cargo flights from LHR to FRA (Days 2,3,4,6,7), MXP (Days 3, 4, 5, 6, 7), ARN (Days 3, 6),
I have not seen the ARN flights go to LHR. I must try harder but I think they normally fly to EMA.
As a point these DHL freighters are a good use of a daystopping aircraft. The DHL aircraft arrives ARN about 0600, and then parks all day before it leaves at 2200 that evening. So a wet lease for BA ARN-EMA-ARN is a good idea for DHL.
AirbusA6 From United Kingdom, joined Apr 2005, 1911 posts, RR: 0 Reply 21, posted (4 years 7 months 1 week 2 days 15 hours ago) and read 2067 times:
Quoting VV701 (Reply 19): Finally as I understand it BA World Cargo has a lot of say as to where the BA passenger short-haul 763s fly to but not the actual flight timing.
I wonder how this will affect BA's future fleet planning. Will BA use 787s in the future on certain shorthaul routes, where the 767s currently go, because of the cargo demand?
it's the bus to stansted (now renamed national express a4 to ruin my username)
VV701 From United Kingdom, joined Aug 2005, 6628 posts, RR: 17 Reply 22, posted (4 years 7 months 1 week 2 days 14 hours ago) and read 2039 times:
Quoting 1peter (Reply 21): Correct although some of those services mentioned do operate ex LTN and not LHR and in the event of technical delays inbound to LHR will generally arrive in LTN.
Thanks for these clarifications. The published timetables at http://www.baworldcargo.com/schedule/
are difficult to interpret because they are for the guidance of freight forwarders. And, for example, a 03:30 am LHR departure is clearly not possible for an aircraft as it is slap bang in the middle of the night curfew. So it is clearly a truck departure. And with BA World Cargo running trucks all over the British Isles and often, I believe, into continental Europe it is difficult to get a proper handle on their short haul schedules.
Quoting AirbusA6 (Reply 25): I wonder how this will affect BA's future fleet planning. Will BA use 787s in the future on certain shorthaul routes, where the 767s currently go, because of the cargo demand?
I do not see BA having no need for twin-isle short-haul aircraft in the future if they are prepared today, for example, to add to their existing 763 freight capacity by operating a long haul 772 on a rotation to ARN. (In volume terms, of course, the 772's total freight capacity is above that of both a 744 and a 380. So it will also be interesting to see where BA puts its 6 773s into service once they are delivered.)
Hovitzer From Israel, joined Jul 2005, 50 posts, RR: 0 Reply 23, posted (4 years 7 months 1 week 2 days 14 hours ago) and read 2011 times:
I wonder, Let's take a BA 777 for example. The aircraft is a 220 seater (for some versions) and has a 20 Ton capacity for cargo (in some routes). Now, I'm assuming that the a/c is fully loaded in pax and cargo, and that the flight is 100% profitable. How many precent from that 100 is a benefit comong from the cargo?
Once heared that cargo is no more than 10% profit from a PAX flight and therefore have very low priority but I read here the BA OPS changed a/c because of a lot of cargo was booked on that flight.
1peter From Netherlands, joined Jul 2005, 147 posts, RR: 0 Reply 24, posted (4 years 7 months 1 week 2 days 11 hours ago) and read 1892 times:
Quoting Hovitzer (Reply 27): I wonder, Let's take a BA 777 for example. The aircraft is a 220 seater (for some versions) and has a 20 Ton capacity for cargo (in some routes). Now, I'm assuming that the a/c is fully loaded in pax and cargo, and that the flight is 100% profitable. How many precent from that 100 is a benefit comong from the cargo?
Once heared that cargo is no more than 10% profit from a PAX flight and therefore have very low priority but I read here the BA OPS changed a/c because of a lot of cargo was booked on that flight.
I'm unsure of the exact figures with regards to revenue contribution from cargo on a specific sector. But something that has be remembered is that particularly on the shorthaul network not every service carry's cargo, whether be due to demand or lack of, operational reasons or anything else that I can't think of at the moment. So as such whatever the cargo contribution maybe overall it's diluted by the fact that not every aircraft moves freight.
That said though there of late have been big movements of perishable pharmacuticals, that as luck would have it generate excellent revenue and therefore in some cases can warrant an aircraft change or not as there have been instances where aircraft haven't been changed due to such traffic.
Airlines flown; AA, AC, AY, BA, BD, BY, CX, DA, DP, IB, KL, LH, LA, LP, MA & MH
25 Bmacleod: Leasing capacity is hell of a lot cheaper than dedicated freighters as AC found out. They ditched thier DC-8Fs in 1994 after 12 or so years, turning
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