Sponsor Message:
Civil Aviation Forum
My Starred Topics | Profile | New Topic | Forum Index | Help | Search 
BA, Why No Dedicated Freighters?  
User currently offlineKLMCedric From Belgium, joined Dec 2003, 810 posts, RR: 22
Posted (5 years 6 months 3 days 21 hours ago) and read 6696 times:

AF, KL,LH, the other majors in Europe have a fleet of dedicated freighter aircraft.
I am wondering how come BA didn't go down that same street?

It would be nice to see some BA CARGO 744's.

26 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineLAXintl From United States of America, joined May 2000, 24312 posts, RR: 47
Reply 1, posted (5 years 6 months 3 days 20 hours ago) and read 6651 times:

Well BA uses 3 dedicated GSS 747-400F for cargo flying out of STN.

They used be BA logo'd, but now sport GSS own paint scheme.


View Large View Medium
Click here for bigger photo!

Photo © Adam Rowden
View Large View Medium
Click here for bigger photo!

Photo © Bernhard Bauske




From the desert to the sea, to all of Southern California
User currently offlineTristarSteve From Sweden, joined Nov 2005, 3930 posts, RR: 34
Reply 2, posted (5 years 6 months 3 days 20 hours ago) and read 6633 times:

The rest of BAs cargo fleet is mostly provided by long term wet lease aircraft. BA once bought a B747-200 freighter, but sold it to CX two years later. There was a thread about it being scrapped a month ago.

User currently offlineLAXintl From United States of America, joined May 2000, 24312 posts, RR: 47
Reply 3, posted (5 years 6 months 3 days 20 hours ago) and read 6581 times:



Quoting TristarSteve (Reply 2):
BA once bought a B747-200 freighter

That would be G-KILO.


View Large View Medium
Click here for bigger photo!

Photo © Howard Chaloner



Off course back in the day BA had dedicated cargo operation with other types also.


View Large View Medium
Click here for bigger photo!

Photo © AlainDurand
View Large View Medium
Click here for bigger photo!

Photo © Eduard Marmet



View Large View Medium
Click here for bigger photo!

Photo © Ralf Manteufel




From the desert to the sea, to all of Southern California
User currently offlineBongodog1964 From United Kingdom, joined Oct 2006, 3471 posts, RR: 3
Reply 4, posted (5 years 6 months 3 days 18 hours ago) and read 6411 times:

I would imagine that one of the main reasons why BA and other carriers choose not to own their own freighters is that it is less expensive to wet lease capacity.
Of course freight doesn't have eyes to see that it is being carried by a 3rd party; passengers might notice that their BA service wasn't seamless, and someone elses plane was involved; but for freight, all the customer sees is BA at either end.


User currently offlineBlueFlyer From United States of America, joined Jan 2006, 3696 posts, RR: 2
Reply 5, posted (5 years 6 months 3 days 18 hours ago) and read 6300 times:
Support Airliners.net - become a First Class Member!



Quoting LAXintl (Reply 1):
Well BA uses 3 dedicated GSS 747-400F for cargo flying out of STN

And occasionally an EAT A300.

Quoting Bongodog1964 (Reply 8):
I would imagine that one of the main reasons why BA and other carriers choose not to own their own freighters is that it is less expensive to wet lease capacity.

Bingo. The costs of operating a small fleet of freighters do not outweigh the benefits, and this is where carriers such as Atlas, Southern Air and Air Atlanta come in, operating ACMI cargo flights for passenger airlines such as QF, NZ, MU or EY.
GSS is a joint-venture between BA and Atlas.



I've got $h*t to do
User currently offlineTristarSteve From Sweden, joined Nov 2005, 3930 posts, RR: 34
Reply 6, posted (5 years 6 months 3 days 17 hours ago) and read 6244 times:



Quoting BlueFlyer (Reply 9):
And occasionally an EAT A300.

And probably lots more only BA Cargo know about.
For example twice a week, on Wed and Sat a DHL A300 leaves ARN on a round trip to the UK on a wet lease for BA. It has a DHL flight number and no one would know.


User currently offlineB747-4U3 From United Kingdom, joined Jan 2002, 988 posts, RR: 0
Reply 7, posted (5 years 6 months 3 days 16 hours ago) and read 6120 times:

I think BA have major agreements with other Cargo airlines as well, which reduces the need for dedicated freighters.

I am sure it was stated on here somewhere that BA have some sort of agreement (code-share or buying capacity) on Korean Air Cargo's London to Seoul flights.

Don't forget that BA also carry a lot of cargo in the holds of their regular pax aircraft.


User currently offlineN328KF From United States of America, joined May 2004, 6482 posts, RR: 3
Reply 8, posted (5 years 6 months 3 days 15 hours ago) and read 6072 times:

How much cargo does BA send to ORD? My desk is just a few hundred meters from the giant BA World Cargo facility at ORD. I am surprised that they have the volume to justify such a building.


When they call the roll in the Senate, the Senators do not know whether to answer 'Present' or 'Not guilty.' T.Roosevelt
User currently offlineReadytotaxi From United Kingdom, joined Dec 2006, 3049 posts, RR: 3
Reply 9, posted (5 years 6 months 3 days 15 hours ago) and read 6041 times:

Could some explain the term "Wet lease", and I suppose there is a "Dry lease"  Confused
Thanks



you don't get a second chance to make a first impression!
User currently offlineBongodog1964 From United Kingdom, joined Oct 2006, 3471 posts, RR: 3
Reply 10, posted (5 years 6 months 3 days 14 hours ago) and read 5967 times:



Quoting Readytotaxi (Reply 13):
Could some explain the term "Wet lease", and I suppose there is a "Dry lease"
Thanks

With a wet lease, you hire the plane complete with crew, servicing etc, all the customer does is supply the cargo (freight or passengers) and pay the bill

With a dry lease, the customer rents the plane and supplies their own crew etc


User currently offlineReadytotaxi From United Kingdom, joined Dec 2006, 3049 posts, RR: 3
Reply 11, posted (5 years 6 months 3 days 12 hours ago) and read 5829 times:



Quoting Bongodog1964 (Reply 14):

Thanks for that.  Smile



you don't get a second chance to make a first impression!
User currently offlineDaleaholic From UK - England, joined Oct 2005, 3204 posts, RR: 13
Reply 12, posted (5 years 6 months 3 days 11 hours ago) and read 5695 times:

BA must be making enough money from freight on PAX flights... Remember somebody saying that the freight on passenger flights can often make the airline more money than the actual people sat above it.


Religion is an illusion of childhood... Outgrown under proper education.
User currently offlineTristarSteve From Sweden, joined Nov 2005, 3930 posts, RR: 34
Reply 13, posted (5 years 6 months 3 days 10 hours ago) and read 5544 times:



Quoting Daleaholic (Reply 16):
Remember somebody saying that the freight on passenger flights can often make the airline more money than the actual people sat above it.

Last week we had a scheduled B763. The aircraft was not available, so OPS replaced it with an A321. This could carry the pax, but not the freight. Cargo pointed out that they had 13.5 tons freight booked, and OPS changed the A321 to a B777, which meant a whole crew was called from standby, just for this freight. Must have been worth it.


User currently offline1peter From Netherlands, joined Jul 2005, 149 posts, RR: 0
Reply 14, posted (5 years 6 months 3 days 8 hours ago) and read 5097 times:

As has already been mentioned BA uses GSS to provide it's dedicated longhaul freighter capacity, operating to places such ATL, ORD, IAH, FRA, STN, HKG, DEL and BOM to name a few. In addition to that capacity is also purchased with JL, KE and BR as a way of accessing into the respective markets that these airlines serve without the need for BA having to supply it's own freighter equipment.

Furthermore BA also buys space ex LHR on the 3 above mentioned carrier's again to provide more options for it's global customers ex London, although one of the 3 is hardly ever used ex LHR!!!

DHL do provide quite an extensive schedule across Europe for BA, that over the last couple of years has been extended to include more destinations and more frequencies during the week supplementing weekend services.

As far as BA using it's own aircraft and not leasing........well the DHL services were started due to a reducing 767 fleet and to maintain a strong cargo presence in some markets. The longhaul fleet was fairly recently evaluated, options were looked at with a view to BA buying freighters out right against the GSS deal......however the GSS way was seen to be the way forward and has been extended for the next few years.



Airlines flown; AA, AC, AY, BA, BD, BY, CX, DA, DP, IB, KL, LH, LA, LP, MA & MH
User currently offlineVV701 From United Kingdom, joined Aug 2005, 7255 posts, RR: 17
Reply 15, posted (5 years 6 months 3 days 6 hours ago) and read 4505 times:



Quoting B747-4U3 (Reply 11):
I think BA have major agreements with other Cargo airlines as well, which reduces the need for dedicated freighters.

As 1peter reports (Reply 18) BA World Cargo buys space on MD-11F BR flights (LHR-TPE on Days 6 and 7 routed through DXB), and on 747F JL flights (LHR-NRT routed direct (Day 3), through AMS (Day 5) and through ANC (Day 7)) and KE flights (LHR-ICN (Day 4 and 6)).

Quoting 1peter (Reply 18):
DHL do provide quite an extensive schedule across Europe for BA

I believe DHL provide BA with A300F cargo flights from LHR to FRA (Days 2,3,4,6,7), MXP (Days 3, 4, 5, 6, 7), ARN (Days 3, 6), BCN (Day 6), MAD (Day 6), OPO (Day 6), CDG (Day6), AMS (Day 6), LEJ (Day 6, 7), MUC (Day 6) and BRU (Day 7). I believe but am not certain that most of the weekday services are routed through BRU or CGN but that most of the Saturday and Sunday flights are direct.

The 3 GSS 744Fs exclusively operated for BA World Cargo operate out of STN to the Far East, India, the Middle East and the USA. They used to also fly to South Africa stopping at OPO on the northerly leg but that route has been discontinued.

The GSS flights to ATL (2 weekly) are routed STN-FRA-PIK-ATL-STN. The weekly flight to IAH is routed STN-FRA-PIK-ORD-IAH-STN-DMM-DXB. The aircraft then flies on to HKG and returns to STN via MAA.

Finally as I understand it BA World Cargo has a lot of say as to where the BA passenger short-haul 763s fly to but not the actual flight timing.


User currently offlineSB From United Kingdom, joined Aug 2006, 216 posts, RR: 0
Reply 16, posted (5 years 6 months 3 days 5 hours ago) and read 4224 times:



Quoting Readytotaxi (Reply 13):

Also, an aircraft on a wet-lease will be operated on the owner's AOC (Air Operating Certificate) while an aircraft on a dry-lease will be operated on the renter's AOC.

S.



"Confirm leave the hold and maintain 320kts?!"
User currently offline1peter From Netherlands, joined Jul 2005, 149 posts, RR: 0
Reply 17, posted (5 years 6 months 2 days 21 hours ago) and read 3182 times:



Quoting VV701 (Reply 19):
I believe DHL provide BA with A300F cargo flights from LHR to FRA (Days 2,3,4,6,7), MXP (Days 3, 4, 5, 6, 7), ARN (Days 3, 6), BCN (Day 6), MAD (Day 6), OPO (Day 6), CDG (Day6), AMS (Day 6), LEJ (Day 6, 7), MUC (Day 6) and BRU (Day 7). I believe but am not certain that most of the weekday services are routed through BRU or CGN but that most of the Saturday and Sunday flights are direct.

Correct although some of those services mentioned do operate ex LTN and not LHR and in the event of technical delays inbound to LHR will generally arrive in LTN.



Airlines flown; AA, AC, AY, BA, BD, BY, CX, DA, DP, IB, KL, LH, LA, LP, MA & MH
User currently offlineAirbuseric From Netherlands, joined Jan 2005, 4207 posts, RR: 51
Reply 18, posted (5 years 6 months 2 days 21 hours ago) and read 3086 times:



Quoting VV701 (Reply 19):
JL flights (LHR-NRT routed direct (Day 3), through AMS (Day 5) and through ANC (Day 7))

Day 3 and 5 are direct LHR-NRT.
Day 7 is through AMS and nonstop NRT. No stop at ANC.



"The whole world steps aside for the man who knows where he is going"
User currently offlineTristarSteve From Sweden, joined Nov 2005, 3930 posts, RR: 34
Reply 19, posted (5 years 6 months 2 days 19 hours ago) and read 2916 times:



Quoting VV701 (Reply 19):
I believe DHL provide BA with A300F cargo flights from LHR to FRA (Days 2,3,4,6,7), MXP (Days 3, 4, 5, 6, 7), ARN (Days 3, 6),

I have not seen the ARN flights go to LHR. I must try harder but I think they normally fly to EMA.
As a point these DHL freighters are a good use of a daystopping aircraft. The DHL aircraft arrives ARN about 0600, and then parks all day before it leaves at 2200 that evening. So a wet lease for BA ARN-EMA-ARN is a good idea for DHL.


User currently offlineGCT64 From United Kingdom, joined Nov 2007, 1323 posts, RR: 1
Reply 20, posted (5 years 6 months 2 days 18 hours ago) and read 2855 times:

LHR is now getting fairly busy with DHL A300s on a Saturday evening, last Saturday (11 Oct) 4 transitted through LHR as follows:

ARN-LHR-OPO
BRU-LHR-FRA
AMS-LHR-CDG-LHR (night stop) - BRU (Sun am)
FRA-LHR-MXP

It also gets lesser numbers of DLH aircraft 2-3 every (or most?) other evening of the week (both 757s & A300s).

For example during afternoon/evening Thu 9 Oct:

B757 OPO-LHR-BRU
B757 OPO-LHR-BRU
(2 757s on the same routing)
A300 MXP-LHR-LEJ



Flown in: A30B,A306,A310,A319,A320,A321,A332,A333,A343,A346,BA11,BU31,B190, B461,B462,B463,(..50 types..),VC10,WESX
User currently offlineAirbusA6 From United Kingdom, joined Apr 2005, 2004 posts, RR: 0
Reply 21, posted (5 years 6 months 2 days 16 hours ago) and read 2752 times:



Quoting VV701 (Reply 19):
Finally as I understand it BA World Cargo has a lot of say as to where the BA passenger short-haul 763s fly to but not the actual flight timing.

I wonder how this will affect BA's future fleet planning. Will BA use 787s in the future on certain shorthaul routes, where the 767s currently go, because of the cargo demand?



it's the bus to stansted (now renamed national express a4 to ruin my username)
User currently offlineVV701 From United Kingdom, joined Aug 2005, 7255 posts, RR: 17
Reply 22, posted (5 years 6 months 2 days 15 hours ago) and read 2724 times:



Quoting 1peter (Reply 21):
Correct although some of those services mentioned do operate ex LTN and not LHR and in the event of technical delays inbound to LHR will generally arrive in LTN.



Quoting TristarSteve (Reply 23):
I have not seen the ARN flights go to LHR.

Thanks for these clarifications. The published timetables at
http://www.baworldcargo.com/schedule/
are difficult to interpret because they are for the guidance of freight forwarders. And, for example, a 03:30 am LHR departure is clearly not possible for an aircraft as it is slap bang in the middle of the night curfew. So it is clearly a truck departure. And with BA World Cargo running trucks all over the British Isles and often, I believe, into continental Europe it is difficult to get a proper handle on their short haul schedules.

Quoting AirbusA6 (Reply 25):
I wonder how this will affect BA's future fleet planning. Will BA use 787s in the future on certain shorthaul routes, where the 767s currently go, because of the cargo demand?

I do not see BA having no need for twin-isle short-haul aircraft in the future if they are prepared today, for example, to add to their existing 763 freight capacity by operating a long haul 772 on a rotation to ARN. (In volume terms, of course, the 772's total freight capacity is above that of both a 744 and a 380. So it will also be interesting to see where BA puts its 6 773s into service once they are delivered.)


User currently offlineHovitzer From Israel, joined Jul 2005, 50 posts, RR: 0
Reply 23, posted (5 years 6 months 2 days 14 hours ago) and read 2696 times:

I wonder, Let's take a BA 777 for example. The aircraft is a 220 seater (for some versions) and has a 20 Ton capacity for cargo (in some routes). Now, I'm assuming that the a/c is fully loaded in pax and cargo, and that the flight is 100% profitable. How many precent from that 100 is a benefit comong from the cargo?
Once heared that cargo is no more than 10% profit from a PAX flight and therefore have very low priority but I read here the BA OPS changed a/c because of a lot of cargo was booked on that flight.


User currently offline1peter From Netherlands, joined Jul 2005, 149 posts, RR: 0
Reply 24, posted (5 years 6 months 2 days 12 hours ago) and read 2577 times:



Quoting Hovitzer (Reply 27):
I wonder, Let's take a BA 777 for example. The aircraft is a 220 seater (for some versions) and has a 20 Ton capacity for cargo (in some routes). Now, I'm assuming that the a/c is fully loaded in pax and cargo, and that the flight is 100% profitable. How many precent from that 100 is a benefit comong from the cargo?
Once heared that cargo is no more than 10% profit from a PAX flight and therefore have very low priority but I read here the BA OPS changed a/c because of a lot of cargo was booked on that flight.

I'm unsure of the exact figures with regards to revenue contribution from cargo on a specific sector. But something that has be remembered is that particularly on the shorthaul network not every service carry's cargo, whether be due to demand or lack of, operational reasons or anything else that I can't think of at the moment. So as such whatever the cargo contribution maybe overall it's diluted by the fact that not every aircraft moves freight.

That said though there of late have been big movements of perishable pharmacuticals, that as luck would have it generate excellent revenue and therefore in some cases can warrant an aircraft change or not as there have been instances where aircraft haven't been changed due to such traffic.



Airlines flown; AA, AC, AY, BA, BD, BY, CX, DA, DP, IB, KL, LH, LA, LP, MA & MH
25 Bmacleod : Leasing capacity is hell of a lot cheaper than dedicated freighters as AC found out. They ditched thier DC-8Fs in 1994 after 12 or so years, turning
26 Plobax : Not to forget the " DAMP LEASE "
Top Of Page
Forum Index

This topic is archived and can not be replied to any more.

Printer friendly format

Similar topics:More similar topics...
Why No 737 Freighters? posted Fri Sep 26 2003 23:01:34 by N601BN
BA, Why No IAH-LHR posted Mon Nov 27 2000 04:00:02 by Cba
Why No BA Codeshare To BOG, CCS? posted Sun Apr 6 2008 04:17:37 by UPPERDECKFAN
Why No BA Flights To NZ? posted Mon Nov 20 2006 22:22:12 by EMA747
Why No Leather Seats For BA Long Haul? posted Wed Sep 6 2006 19:23:42 by 8herveg
Why No MD-80 Srs Freighters? posted Thu Jun 29 2006 23:01:46 by DHHornet
Why No Ankara On Ba.com posted Sun Mar 12 2006 02:16:58 by Firiko
Why No 767-200/200ERs With BA? posted Mon Jan 30 2006 01:31:59 by AirCanada014
Why No First Class On MAN-JFK On BA? posted Sun Oct 23 2005 00:19:13 by Wrighbrothers
Why No A-380's For BA posted Sun Aug 28 2005 08:04:03 by Fiaz
Why No A-380's For BA posted Sun Aug 28 2005 08:04:03 by Fiaz