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AZ Closing LIS  
User currently offlineRicardoFG From Spain, joined Feb 2005, 677 posts, RR: 0
Posted (5 years 10 months 1 week 1 day 21 hours ago) and read 4458 times:

Sorry if this is old news, but I just heard that Alitalia will be discontinuing its service FCO-LIS effective Nov 1st 2008.

What other routes are on the chopping block for AZ in Europe?? Should we expect TP to boost service to FCO or MXP now??

34 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineJanmnastami From Italy, joined Apr 2008, 828 posts, RR: 0
Reply 1, posted (5 years 10 months 1 week 1 day 21 hours ago) and read 4389 times:



Quoting RicardoFG (Thread starter):

I don't know if AZ will discontinue FCO-LIS (and I don't understand why they should stop that route), but LH will begin to fly MXP-LIS from next March.


User currently offlineLambert747 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 2, posted (5 years 10 months 1 week 1 day 21 hours ago) and read 4382 times:



Quoting Janmnastami (Reply 1):
I don't know if AZ will discontinue FCO-LIS (and I don't understand why they should stop that route), but LH will begin to fly MXP-LIS from next March.

 checkmark 

Every AZ loss is a possible LH gain. Sad as AZ used to operate FCO and LIN to LIS with the aircraft as large as the A300.

Quoting RicardoFG (Thread starter):
What other routes are on the chopping block for AZ in Europe?? Should we expect TP to boost service to FCO or MXP now??

TP also operates BLQ and VCE..


User currently offlineBAW716 From United States of America, joined Nov 2003, 2028 posts, RR: 27
Reply 3, posted (5 years 10 months 1 week 1 day 20 hours ago) and read 4315 times:

I think you will see AZ start to cut other routes on which they do not perform well...this I suspect will be part of their strategy to downsize and operate routes on which they will have a better than even chance of success...and FCO-LIS is predominantly a leisure route for AZ.

More to follow.

ciao
baw716



David L. Lamb, fmr Area Mgr Alitalia SFO 1998-2002, fmr Regional Analyst SFO-UAL 1992-1998
User currently offlineLambert747 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 4, posted (5 years 10 months 1 week 1 day 20 hours ago) and read 4257 times:



Quoting BAW716 (Reply 3):

I think you will see AZ start to cut other routes on which they do not perform well...this I suspect will be part of their strategy to downsize and operate routes on which they will have a better than even chance of success...and FCO-LIS is predominantly a leisure route for AZ.

Hate to say it...

MIL-LIS was better performing for AZ..

The FCO move is going to haunt AZ for as long as they are in business. If not in the obituaries when the airline is locked, sealed, and nothing more than a memory.


User currently offlineAvek00 From United States of America, joined Oct 2004, 4368 posts, RR: 19
Reply 5, posted (5 years 10 months 1 week 1 day 14 hours ago) and read 3927 times:

Is ORD-FCO likely on the chopping block as well?


Live life to the fullest.
User currently offlineMAH4546 From Sweden, joined Jan 2001, 32686 posts, RR: 72
Reply 6, posted (5 years 10 months 1 week 1 day 14 hours ago) and read 3885 times:



Quoting Avek00 (Reply 5):
Is ORD-FCO likely on the chopping block as well?

No, but EWR-FCO and LAX-FCO are. Though the O'Hare and Boston route nonetheless typically bleed money; I don't know how the switch to Rome has helped, if at all.



a.
User currently offlineAvek00 From United States of America, joined Oct 2004, 4368 posts, RR: 19
Reply 7, posted (5 years 10 months 1 week 1 day 11 hours ago) and read 3758 times:

IMHO, it would be disastro

Quoting BAW716 (Reply 3):
I think you will see AZ start to cut other routes on which they do not perform well

...I agree, and I think such downsizing is most unfortunate in part because, IMHO, Alitalia is one of the few airlines that can legitimately blame its problems in part on being *too small* as opposed to offering too much capacity in the marketplace.

Every city cut will be just that much more traffic that AZ cannot hope to compete for, and that of course makes the airline that much less attractive to business traffic that demands (and most importantly, is willing to pay a premium of some sort for) broad network connectivity and frequent flights at key times.



Live life to the fullest.
User currently offlineJoost From Netherlands, joined Apr 2005, 3167 posts, RR: 4
Reply 8, posted (5 years 10 months 1 week 1 day 3 hours ago) and read 3557 times:



Quoting Lambert747 (Reply 4):
Hate to say it...

MIL-LIS was better performing for AZ..

It seems like you have access to all financial information about Alitalia, information that is typically kept secret. Do you care to enlighten us here on the forum what your source is of all this information?


User currently offlineLIPZ From Austria, joined Jun 2006, 1075 posts, RR: 0
Reply 9, posted (5 years 10 months 1 week 1 day 2 hours ago) and read 3487 times:

According to aviazionecivile.com AZ is going to cut the following routes :

MXP AMS
MXP GVA
MXP SXB
MXP MUC
MXP BIO
MXP TRS
MXP NAP
MXP BEG
MXP PRG
MXP STR

FCO LIS
FCO TXL
FCO AGP
FCO SKG
FCO VLC
FCO VIE
FCO DXB
FCO ZRH

NAP VCE

And probably more to come as AZ is grounding several planes


User currently offlineAIR MALTA From Malta, joined Sep 2001, 2497 posts, RR: 1
Reply 10, posted (5 years 10 months 1 week 1 day 1 hour ago) and read 3415 times:



Quoting LIPZ (Reply 9):
FCO VIE

That means AZ will no longer be serving Vienna. I guess OS and HG were too much of a competition to AZ.

Happy to see that AZ will keep its 3 daily flights to TUN (2 x FCO and 1 x MXP).



Next flights : BRU-ZRH-CAI (LX)/ BRU-FCO-TLV (AZ)
User currently offlineAirbazar From United States of America, joined Sep 2003, 8281 posts, RR: 10
Reply 11, posted (5 years 10 months 1 week 1 day 1 hour ago) and read 3366 times:



Quoting RicardoFG (Thread starter):
Should we expect TP to boost service to FCO or MXP now??

They already have. IIRC, earlier on TP boosted nearly all of their Italian destinations with either increased frequencies or increased capacity. Not only was that move a pre-emptive strike against a possible AZ collapse but also because Italy accounts for one of the largest sources of their Brazilian traffic.


User currently offlineLambert747 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 12, posted (5 years 10 months 1 week 23 hours ago) and read 3258 times:



Quoting Joost (Reply 8):
It seems like you have access to all financial information about Alitalia, information that is typically kept secret. Do you care to enlighten us here on the forum what your source is of all this information?

Relatives in the employ of SEA...

Which I find to be a much more reliable source than Flight Attendants..  thumbsup 


User currently offlineTrystero From Portugal, joined Oct 2008, 247 posts, RR: 0
Reply 13, posted (5 years 10 months 1 week 23 hours ago) and read 3243 times:

I´ve been in Italy twice, separated by 2-3 years. The first i flew to Rome and the second to Bologna, in both cases TP prices were by far more competitive than AZ. Anyway it's always sad to loose either diferent planes or airlines in LIS, wich is alredy a bit monotonous...


Of course I love you. Now get me a beer.
User currently offlineLambert747 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 14, posted (5 years 10 months 1 week 23 hours ago) and read 3220 times:



Quoting LIPZ (Reply 9):
MXP AMS
MXP GVA
MXP SXB
MXP MUC
MXP BIO
MXP TRS
MXP NAP
MXP BEG
MXP PRG
MXP STR

Sad thing is that if AZ had invested in its product and not taken a strike every time employees wanted an espresso break none of the above mentioned cuts would have to have had taken place. If AZ needs to cut routes such above the writing is more than on the walls. As has been said before airlines cannot shrink to profitability. Certainly not when the people that are running the airline are told not to take a bathroom break without the threat of a Union strike. More certainly not when the people running the airline cannot comprehend the need to "keep up with the times" and invest in the onboard product, and consistent service standards.

AZ is the proverbial "toast", as we all know it. Anyone who has ideas that AZ will some how rise and reclaim its position on the global stage is sorely disillusioned. If AZ cannot make heavy business routes such as MXP-AMS, MXP-GVA, MXP-MUC, MXP-PRG, MXP-SXB sustainable they have much bigger problems than just strikes at espresso break times.

Quoting LIPZ (Reply 9):
FCO LIS
FCO TXL
FCO AGP
FCO SKG
FCO VLC
FCO VIE
FCO DXB
FCO ZRH

The above transfers to FCO should have never taken place. MXP on a per seat basis returns a healthier yield than that of FCO. None of the above markets should have been transferred to FCO. The decision to transfer AZ services from MXP to FCO was one of the most moronic and haphazard by any airline to date. You cannot simply shift an airlines route structure overnight as AZ attempted to do. Success cannot be achieved with such an upheaval, most certainly when you are taking routes from a key business market and transferring it to a lower yield mostly leisure market. AZ is an airline based on national, or rather Roman pride, it is run more like a Pizzeria than an airline.

DXB should have never been augmented to FCO over MXP. If AZ had dedicated resources to innovating its onboard product, and in some way stemming its hemorrhaging relationship with the Unions all of this disaster could have been halted from day one. AZ needs one hub. It cannot be be a success with a leisure hub and a business traffic hub. More so an airline cannot make money when it essentially closes a hub that can return business yield with over 7 million people in the most industrious Metro area in the nation, and more than 15 million within a 3 hour drive to that area. The idea that some have that the location of FCO was an advantage over MXP is lost in reality. FCO is a top heavy leisure/VFR market, and a more than uneven seasonal market at that.

AZ is lost. An airline without focus. An airline without purpose. An airline beyond borrowed time.

Addio Alitalia.


User currently offlineAirbazar From United States of America, joined Sep 2003, 8281 posts, RR: 10
Reply 15, posted (5 years 10 months 1 week 23 hours ago) and read 3196 times:



Quoting Lambert747 (Reply 14):
As has been said before airlines cannot shrink to profitability.

Regardles of whether this will be the solution for AZ, that's not true at all. Virtually every time an airline goes into Ch11 it results in shrinking and a return to profitability. TAP, managed to shrink significantly and return to profitability after decades of losses. They had to cut every N.American destination except EWR, countless European destinations as well as Asia. They have been profitable nearly every year since the "shrink".


User currently offlineLambert747 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 16, posted (5 years 10 months 1 week 23 hours ago) and read 3180 times:



Quoting Airbazar (Reply 11):
They already have. IIRC, earlier on TP boosted nearly all of their Italian destinations with either increased frequencies or increased capacity. Not only was that move a pre-emptive strike against a possible AZ collapse but also because Italy accounts for one of the largest sources of their Brazilian traffic.

 checkmark 

BLQ, VCE, MXP, FCO flights are timed to connect with the TP Brazilian flghts. Indeed TP does feed from the Italian market, if not just for the VFR alone. Looking at the Italian VFR markets in Brazil, these all make sense and the majority of Italians came from Veneto.

Source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Italian_Brazilians

Current Italian Population in Brazil - 28.000.000/15%:

State
Italian-Brazilian Population = Percentage of Italian-Brazilian in State


São Paulo
13,000,000 = 32.5%
Minas Gerais
2,000,000 = 10.6%
Rio de Janeiro
1,000,000 = 6.7%
Espírito Santo
1,700,000 = 59.0%
South Rio Grande do Sul
3,000,000 = 28.7%
Santa Catarina
3,000,000 = 51.8%
Paraná
4,000,000 = 40.0%

Quoting Trystero (Reply 13):
I´ve been in Italy twice, separated by 2-3 years. The first i flew to Rome and the second to Bologna, in both cases TP prices were by far more competitive than AZ. Anyway it's always sad to loose either diferent planes or airlines in LIS, wich is alredy a bit monotonous...

 checkmark 

That is the sad thing. TP has a much better and more reliable product than AZ and in many cases offers tickets at a lower cost than that of AZ. With AZ you pay a premium in many cases and you have no idea if you are going to be hit with a atrike, a flight cancellation, crappy service, or better yet all three.


User currently offlineTrystero From Portugal, joined Oct 2008, 247 posts, RR: 0
Reply 17, posted (5 years 10 months 1 week 22 hours ago) and read 3173 times:



Quoting Airbazar (Reply 15):
TAP, managed to shrink significantly and return to profitability after decades of losses.

 checkmark 

But TP had a lot of waste to cut. Begining by stop being one of the golden shelves of the regime, cut "political statements" like the flight to Macau and other ruining routes and reducing staff. I beleive that there are some paralelism beetwen TP problems in the past and the actual AZ, fortunately TP resolved them with a more favourable economic situation. But even with teh fantastici results CEO Fernando Pinto was getting there were pressures to return to the political comnitee era.



Of course I love you. Now get me a beer.
User currently offlineJoost From Netherlands, joined Apr 2005, 3167 posts, RR: 4
Reply 18, posted (5 years 10 months 1 week 22 hours ago) and read 3138 times:



Quoting Lambert747 (Reply 14):
If AZ cannot make heavy business routes such as MXP-AMS, MXP-GVA, MXP-MUC, MXP-PRG, MXP-SXB sustainable they have much bigger problems than just strikes at espresso break times.

MXP-GVA has not been operating for a while. (why is it in the list anyways?) I wonder why no other carrier has taken on the route, for example easyJet. Maybe because it is not such a busy route after all? Maybe because (a bit exaggerated) MXP is situated somewhat halfway between Geneva and Milan? The train takes a little more than 4 hours to Milano Centrale from Geneva.

MXP-SXB is by no means a heavy business route. Actually, the route is subsidized by the French government by means of a PSO (restriced access type).

(FYI: many routes ex SXB are subsidized: AMS, CPH, MAD, PRG; the tender is open for VIE, WAW but no carrier has shown interest)

In general, I agree with you though: AZ from MXP is just not competitive enough in the current landscape.


User currently offlineAirbazar From United States of America, joined Sep 2003, 8281 posts, RR: 10
Reply 19, posted (5 years 10 months 1 week 22 hours ago) and read 3086 times:



Quoting Trystero (Reply 17):
But TP had a lot of waste to cut.

So does AZ  Smile

Quoting Trystero (Reply 17):
But even with teh fantastici results CEO Fernando Pinto was getting there were pressures to return to the political comnitee era.

And there are still today, and a lot of it is due to the chronic Portuguese mentality of not being able to see a good thing until it's gone, especially if the good thing is foreign. They couldn't stop complaing about Scolari, look at they have today. By the same token, most people don't like Fernando Pinto. I can only imagine what will happen if he leaves.


User currently offlineTrystero From Portugal, joined Oct 2008, 247 posts, RR: 0
Reply 20, posted (5 years 10 months 1 week 20 hours ago) and read 2846 times:



Quoting Airbazar (Reply 19):
And there are still today, and a lot of it is due to the chronic Portuguese mentality of not being able to see a good thing until it's gone, especially if the good thing is foreign. They couldn't stop complaing about Scolari, look at they have today. By the same token, most people don't like Fernando Pinto. I can only imagine what will happen if he leaves.

 checkmark 


I believe no one is irreplaceable, bur Fernando Pinto is the best life insurance TP has. The privatization is on the table again, probably not in 2009, because, not only, it's an election year, but also this recent bumps in oil price and in the economy has brought to life old fears, but in 2010 I believe it will go forward ( or go to LH...). Anyway, and in spite of bad mouthing in Portugal about TP ( We seem to have a twisted pleasure in self-punishment) most people I talk to (and there was a survey that confirmed that) thinks its good to have a state owned airline.



Of course I love you. Now get me a beer.
User currently offlineAvek00 From United States of America, joined Oct 2004, 4368 posts, RR: 19
Reply 21, posted (5 years 10 months 1 week 11 hours ago) and read 2612 times:



Quoting AIR MALTA (Reply 10):
That means AZ will no longer be serving Vienna.

This I find perplexing most of all.

If there is just ONE clear network strength Alitalia should possess, it should be in services to Central and Eastern Europe, where Italy's (and especially MXP's) geographic location offers a natural advantage shared only by Germany (amongst the major "Western European" countries) in terms of cachement area. Alitalia should be more than holding its own in Switzerland, Austria, the Czech Republic, the former Yugoslavia and elsewhere even in the face of any stiff head-to-head competition.



Live life to the fullest.
User currently offlineLambert747 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 22, posted (5 years 10 months 1 week 10 hours ago) and read 2587 times:



Quoting Joost (Reply 18):
MXP-GVA has not been operating for a while. (why is it in the list anyways?) I wonder why no other carrier has taken on the route, for example easyJet. Maybe because it is not such a busy route after all? Maybe because (a bit exaggerated) MXP is situated somewhat halfway between Geneva and Milan? The train takes a little more than 4 hours to Milano Centrale from Geneva.

 checkmark 

Quoting Avek00 (Reply 21):
If there is just ONE clear network strength Alitalia should possess, it should be in services to Central and Eastern Europe, where Italy's (and especially MXP's) geographic location offers a natural advantage shared only by Germany (amongst the major "Western European" countries) in terms of catchment area. Alitalia should be more than holding its own in Switzerland, Austria, the Czech Republic, the former Yugoslavia and elsewhere even in the face of any stiff head-to-head competition

 checkmark 

What we are witnessing is an airline that once was on top of its game and todays cannot even begin to lift its head above the ground. You are both correct in what each of you are saying. If AZ was a stable, reliable, and consistent airline a route such as LIN or MXP-GVA could be operated 3x per day with an ERJ-145 with no problem. However the fundamental problem is that most corporations want nothing to do with AZ. A route such as MIL-GVA is a business route. If you lack the corporate confidence to patronize your product you are dead in the water.

There are so many mis-steps for AZ in recent years I cannot even begin to comprehend where each individual mis-step occurred first. Of my own opinion AZ could have made MXP a powerful, very powerful competitor to SR/LX at ZRH, OS at VIE, and LH at MUC for Central and Southern European connections. Instead AZ who was much to focused on the food, or rather the Unions good, was less focused on its audience and business based flyers who while AZ ran around like a crazed person with 5 personalities, went and gave all of their business to other more stable, reliable, and consistent airline in the market. It is not hard to imagine that routes such as LAX-MXP-DEL, JFK-MXP-DXB, GRU-MXP-HKG, or LHR-MXP-ACC could not have been profitable, if it were for AZ having its proverbial head on straight on focused on its core product and not on some sort of Union friendly ideal.

We can sit here and debate the would of, should of, and could of all night long. In the end and in the morning we will still wake up to AZ. An airline that once flew movie stars, royalty, and religious icons, and is now sadly settling into a damp and muddy grave it unfortunately has dug of its own misconceived and unfocused business plans. I will say it again.

Addio Alitalia


User currently offlineHardiwv From Brazil, joined Oct 2004, 8780 posts, RR: 50
Reply 23, posted (5 years 10 months 1 week 9 hours ago) and read 2544 times:



Quoting Lambert747 (Reply 16):
Current Italian Population in Brazil - 28.000.000/15%:

State
Italian-Brazilian Population = Percentage of Italian-Brazilian in State

São Paulo
13,000,000 = 32.5%
Minas Gerais
2,000,000 = 10.6%
Rio de Janeiro
1,000,000 = 6.7%
Espírito Santo
1,700,000 = 59.0%
South Rio Grande do Sul
3,000,000 = 28.7%
Santa Catarina
3,000,000 = 51.8%
Paraná
4,000,000 = 40.0%

Hence you can note that out of the almost 30 million Italian descends living in Brazil the ample majority lives in Sao Paulo and the Southern States (Santa Catarina, Parana and Rio Grande do Sul) which explains why GRU is such a strong route for AZ.

It would be interesting if AZ could operate FCO-POA.

Rgs,


User currently offlineLambert747 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 24, posted (5 years 10 months 1 week 9 hours ago) and read 2539 times:



Quoting Hardiwv (Reply 23):

It would be interesting if AZ could operate FCO-POA.

In theory I am sure they could, however I dont trust the AZ brand to be aorund long enough to make it work. I spoke with a relative in Italy today and they said that they dont even think that the FCO-GIG flight will see the light of day. Many were looking forward to it. Sadly AZ has decided to shrink to profitability, and in the interim ruin what is left of the airline and its route network.


25 Hardiwv : Agree with you, no chance here. AZ is cutting routes and destinations. Rgs,
26 BAW716 : No doubt, the move to FCO was the dumbest thing AZ has ever done. It killed their ability to carry business traffic and when you have full planes, a
27 Avek00 : Looks like FCO-EWR just got canned. The Coach inventory on my Dec. FCO-EWR flight has just been zeroed out in the same style as the FCO-LAX...
28 BAW716 : AZ is pulling down EWR entirely. As I understand it, they are consolidating their operation in New York at JFK. I believe this has a great deal to do
29 MillwallSean : Consolidating at one NY airport, withdrawing from the US west coast and further reductions of their overall network is a good thing. Right now Alitali
30 Avek00 : Rome can most certainly function as an airline hub, but Alitalia simply lacks the resources -- and namely, fleet --- to make a comprehensive hub in R
31 MAH4546 : They are also reducing service to Boston, Chicago, and Toronto; and ending 777 service to JFK. Only Miami will see the 777 in North America. I used th
32 Janmnastami : Limited market? A catchment area of about 9 millions of people in the range of 90 minutes from MXP is a limited market?
33 Flyyul : How far do you want to draw your catchment? How many leakage points are there in the catchment for MXP (LIN/VCE/BLQ/TRN/ZRH).
34 Post contains images Janmnastami : The source is a report of LH:
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