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IB 319's: MAD-DME  
User currently offlineCragley From Australia, joined Jul 2004, 427 posts, RR: 0
Posted (5 years 11 months 1 week 2 days 19 hours ago) and read 3174 times:

I took a flight a few weeks back and was unfortunate enought to fly with IB from MAD to DME on a 319 after an earlier flight from EZE to MAD also with IB but obviously on a larger plane.

I am 5ft9 but manager to have my legs in the aisle as the legroom was abismal! There was 1 empty seat on the plane and I was lucky enough to be sitting next to it. Why does IB operate such a small aircraft for a 5 hour flight? And on top of that, with the tiniest of legroom. I could understand it for a domestic flight or a 1 hour short haul, but 5 hours on a 319 felt longer than the flight from EZE to MAD.

There were about 20 people at any one time standing in the aisle to stretch their legs.

Sad.

30 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineMIgAiR54 From Spain, joined Jun 2007, 1726 posts, RR: 0
Reply 1, posted (5 years 11 months 1 week 2 days 19 hours ago) and read 3129 times:

Lack of planes.

I think they will operate with a bigger plane if they could, like Tel Aviv.

IMO if they buy A-330 this must be one of the routes for them.

Tel Aviv, Malabo, Moscow, Lagos, all routes could be operated better with an A-330 and also offering a better bussines product. TLV will see some A340 soon.

Quoting Cragley (Thread starter):
tiniest of legroom

Almost every A319 in the market has the same legroom.


User currently offlineCOERJ145 From United States of America, joined Jun 2005, 1421 posts, RR: 1
Reply 2, posted (5 years 11 months 1 week 2 days 19 hours ago) and read 3121 times:



Quoting Cragley (Thread starter):
Why does IB operate such a small aircraft for a 5 hour flight? And on top of that, with the tiniest of legroom. I could understand it for a domestic flight or a 1 hour short haul, but 5 hours on a 319 felt longer than the flight from EZE to MAD.

Probably not enough demand for an A340(IBs only longhaul aircraft) for that route. IB's seat pitch is the same as almost all US Airlines(31'' of pitch). Try and get an exit row next time.


User currently offlineN328KF From United States of America, joined May 2004, 6485 posts, RR: 3
Reply 3, posted (5 years 11 months 1 week 2 days 19 hours ago) and read 3115 times:

I hate their A319s. Cramped, dirty, and then you've got the Spanish boarding style (every person for themselves, and no line...) Iberia passengers do this even at Iberia stations in the US.


When they call the roll in the Senate, the Senators do not know whether to answer 'Present' or 'Not guilty.' T.Roosevelt
User currently offlineAH332 From Algeria, joined Mar 2007, 276 posts, RR: 0
Reply 4, posted (5 years 11 months 1 week 2 days 18 hours ago) and read 3065 times:

Hi,

I flew on IB 319s on MAD-ALG-MAD, also coming in from a larger aircraft (346 from MIA). I thought it was a nice enough flight and really can't complain about the aircraft. Although, MAD-ALG is only 1h 35 min.

Cheers,
Imad



Bledi Heya Al Djazaeer! // Next Flights: AB MIA-DUS-ORY, AF ORY-MRS-ALG
User currently offlineAtlanta From United States of America, joined Jun 2008, 473 posts, RR: 1
Reply 5, posted (5 years 11 months 1 week 2 days 18 hours ago) and read 3065 times:



Quoting MIgAiR54 (Reply 1):
IMO if they buy A-330 this must be one of the routes for them.

It's a question of when not if.

One day IB will order a 767 sized aircraft, but not the A330 or 767 I think 787 or A350 for them, why would you order a 10-20 year old design when you could order a brand new aircraft.

Quoting MIgAiR54 (Reply 1):
if they buy A-330

Also the 330 seems too big for some intra-european routes.



Welcome To The New Delta- The World's Largest Airline
User currently offlineUPPERDECKFAN From Spain, joined Jun 2007, 992 posts, RR: 1
Reply 6, posted (5 years 11 months 1 week 2 days 18 hours ago) and read 3035 times:

As said before IB seat pitch on the A320 series is more or less the same as many of the competitors, the issue is that none of them uses it on 5+ hr flights as IB does.

Having a fleet of just A320's and A340's leaves them with a weak spot in their network being medium haul missions (4-6 hrs) where the A340 is too big and the A320 too uncomfortable

Quoting Atlanta (Reply 5):
One day IB will order a 767 sized aircraft, but not the A330 or 767 I think 787 or A350 for them, why would you order a 10-20 year old design when you could order a brand new aircraft.

It depends on avalability, if IB can get A330's 5 years before A350's they will go for it.

BTW, A330 vs.767 isn't a fair comparison as A330 deliveries are still at full strength while767 production line is almost closed.

Quoting Atlanta (Reply 5):
Also the 330 seems too big for some intra-european routes.

Of course it is, so these routes will keep the A320's regardless of whether IB gets A330's.



744,742,741,772,773,762,732,735,738,752,727,717,DC10,DC9,M82,M87,319,320,321,343,346,L1011,CRJ2,CRJ9,E190,ATR42,DSH8,
User currently offlineMIgAiR54 From Spain, joined Jun 2007, 1726 posts, RR: 0
Reply 7, posted (5 years 11 months 1 week 2 days 18 hours ago) and read 3008 times:



Quoting Atlanta (Reply 5):
One day IB will order a 767 sized aircraft, but not the A330 or 767 I think 787 or A350 for them

Yes, but until 2014 or 2015 when A350 will be available IB is going to need something. And they could lease or buy some A330.

Quoting Atlanta (Reply 5):
Also the 330 seems too big for some intra-european routes.

It could be but IB is planning an expansion so more destination an more freqs mean an increase in some intra-european routes. And as I said before I consider that IB need an improve in its European Bussines model to attract higher yield paxs.


User currently offlineGatoVolador From Spain, joined Apr 2007, 435 posts, RR: 1
Reply 8, posted (5 years 11 months 1 week 2 days 18 hours ago) and read 2988 times:

Cragley, you're right: an A319 is not the most suitable aircraft for a MAD-DME flight. It's not a matter of the model, but of the configuration of this aircraft. Unfortunately, Iberia lacks of a good aircraft for long-haul. If they use short-haul aircrafts, as you already know, you cannot offer a proper business class. If they use long-haul aircrafts, this would mean less frequencies and/or poor loads. Moreover, the A340s are quite scarce, so Iberia cannot "waste" them flying medium-haul. But medium-haul is significant enough to have some A319/320/321 in a medium-haul configuration. (Well.... I'd say that medium-haul is significant, but that the flights are concentrated, and this leads you to a situation in which you cannot have short-haul A319 and medium-haul A319).

As others said, Iberia is already thinking how the medium-haul could be improved in order to offer a true business class (maybe it won't be a "Business Plus" but a normal "Business Class" with a Business Plus or similar seat). The solution will probably be the A330-200. Iberia already played with this idea some years ago, and now they once again are studying to have a fleet of A330-200. This kind of aircraft is cheap to operate and offers about 210 seats (a bit more than a simple A321) in a two-class configuration with true business class seats (flat seat) and a decent tourist class.

My opinion is that the A332 is a versatile aircraft which could be used for long-haul and also short-haul. On long-haul, the A332 could be good for low-density airports in the US (BOS and IAD during the low season, and also other future airports), Central America (small countries), new airports in Africa, an some Asian destinations. On medium haul, Tel-Aviv is already demanding an A343, Moscow is growing fast, as well as Istanbul, Lagos, Dakar, bla, bla. Finally, on short-haul it can be used to Tenerife North and Las Palmas (x2 each, daily), Frankfurt (x1 weekly), London for sure (A330s instead of A321s), and very probably Paris and Rome, which already see a lot of A321s.

This versatility (in terms of seats and also in terms of classes offered, because even this short-haul stations could see very positively a true business product) is very interesting, and makes the A332 option feasible.

I know that Airbus promised a "regional" A350, with the size of the A350 but with the costs of a short-haul aircraft (due to the lower weight and range). I'd like this option, but the A350-800 seems much more like an A343 more than an A332, and also the A350 will stil need years to come. That's why the A332, at least as an interim solution, would make sense.

I hope a reaction from Iberia. I wish Iberia could maintain and grow on medium-haul with A332, but if this is not possible, I'd like to see A319/20/21 configured for medium haul or even a mix of A332 and medium-haul A319s in order to maintain the frequencies and keep the loads high. Do you imagine one daily frequency to DME with an A332 and the other one with a special A319?


User currently offlineAtlanta From United States of America, joined Jun 2008, 473 posts, RR: 1
Reply 9, posted (5 years 11 months 1 week 2 days 18 hours ago) and read 2988 times:



Quoting MIgAiR54 (Reply 7):
IB is going to need something. And they could lease or buy some A330.

I like the thinking, 10 or so A330's would be great intrim intra-european lift until A350/787's are availible.



Welcome To The New Delta- The World's Largest Airline
User currently offlineMIgAiR54 From Spain, joined Jun 2007, 1726 posts, RR: 0
Reply 10, posted (5 years 11 months 1 week 2 days 17 hours ago) and read 2965 times:



Quoting GatoVolador (Reply 8):

 bigthumbsup  It is what i was thinking.

Quoting GatoVolador (Reply 8):
I'd like to see A319/20/21 configured for medium haul or even a mix of A332 and medium-haul A319s in order to maintain the frequencies and keep the loads high

Very important. AF does.


User currently offlineLufthansa747 From Philippines, joined May 1999, 3201 posts, RR: 42
Reply 11, posted (5 years 11 months 1 week 2 days 17 hours ago) and read 2957 times:



Quoting MIgAiR54 (Reply 1):
Almost every A319 in the market has the same legroom.

For sure not.

IB A319 in the back is the most uncomfortable flight I've ever had. Legroom worse than any other plane I've flown. First few rows with generous pitch means probably 29" for the back. Absolutely awful.

141 seats is probably the maximum you can have without the extra exit like U2/5J. Add galleys and generous pitch in first few rows, the rest is a complete disaster.



Air Asia Super Elite, Cebu Pacific Titanium
User currently offlineMIgAiR54 From Spain, joined Jun 2007, 1726 posts, RR: 0
Reply 12, posted (5 years 11 months 1 week 2 days 17 hours ago) and read 2931 times:



Quoting Lufthansa747 (Reply 11):
h generous pitch means probably 29" for the back.

Oficially 31´´ in IB.

You can check more airlines in www.seatguru.com, you will see that almost everybody has 31´´ in coach.

Quoting Lufthansa747 (Reply 11):
in the back

all planes are worst in the back.


User currently offlineLufthansa747 From Philippines, joined May 1999, 3201 posts, RR: 42
Reply 13, posted (5 years 11 months 1 week 2 days 17 hours ago) and read 2907 times:

It looked like at least 34" in business and a few rows after the divider. Maybe 31" is the average, but it certainly wasn't that where I was sitting.


Air Asia Super Elite, Cebu Pacific Titanium
User currently offlineBwaflyer From United Kingdom, joined Jun 2004, 689 posts, RR: 0
Reply 14, posted (5 years 11 months 1 week 2 days 16 hours ago) and read 2838 times:



Quoting Lufthansa747 (Reply 11):
141 seats is probably the maximum you can have without the extra exit like U2/5J. Add galleys and generous pitch in first few rows, the rest is a complete disaster.

BD operate A319s in two configurations, 130 seats with convertible seating for 2 class operations, and 144 seats for all economy routes (3 wardrobes and 1 galley removed). Seat pitch is 31-32 inches throughout.


User currently offlineCRJ900 From Norway, joined Jun 2004, 2191 posts, RR: 1
Reply 15, posted (5 years 11 months 1 week 2 days 16 hours ago) and read 2798 times:
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If IB use only an A319 on MAD-DME, demand can't be all that big... otherwise they would use an A321?


Come, fly the prevailing winds with me
User currently offlineMAH4546 From Sweden, joined Jan 2001, 32783 posts, RR: 72
Reply 16, posted (5 years 11 months 1 week 2 days 16 hours ago) and read 2792 times:



Quoting UPPERDECKFAN (Reply 6):
the issue is that none of them uses it on 5+ hr flights as IB does.

Um, yeah they do.

Austrian A320s to the Middle East and Central Asia; bmi A320s to the Middle East, Central Asia, and Africa. Air France A319s to Africa and the Middle East (which, while configured with a long-haul C product, still have a regular Y product). SAS A320s to Dubai. Those are just some off the top of my head.



a.
User currently offlineStylo777 From Germany, joined Feb 2006, 2976 posts, RR: 12
Reply 17, posted (5 years 11 months 1 week 2 days 16 hours ago) and read 2792 times:

is there a difference of the seatpitch within the fleet? I was onboard of one of their latest delivered A319 with the new leather seats (white) and felt very comfortable on a 2.5hrs flight. Maybe the older aircrafts have other interiours?!?

User currently offlineViscount724 From Switzerland, joined Oct 2006, 25332 posts, RR: 22
Reply 18, posted (5 years 11 months 1 week 2 days 15 hours ago) and read 2760 times:



Quoting UPPERDECKFAN (Reply 6):
As said before IB seat pitch on the A320 series is more or less the same as many of the competitors, the issue is that none of them uses it on 5+ hr flights as IB does.

BMI operates the A320 family LHR-THR nonstop, 2389 nm, almost 6 hrs eastbound and 7 hrs westbound.
LHR-THR 2389 nm
MAD-DME 1859 nm


User currently offlineLufthansa747 From Philippines, joined May 1999, 3201 posts, RR: 42
Reply 19, posted (5 years 11 months 1 week 2 days 15 hours ago) and read 2735 times:



Quoting Stylo777 (Reply 17):
is there a difference of the seatpitch within the fleet? I was onboard of one of their latest delivered A319 with the new leather seats (white) and felt very comfortable on a 2.5hrs flight. Maybe the older aircrafts have other interiours?!?

You were probably lucky to sit in the forward part of the cabin with pitch meant for C.

I was in the third last row for 2 flights, it was almost unbearable. I'm 6ft2". Certainly worse than FR, AK etc pitch.



Air Asia Super Elite, Cebu Pacific Titanium
User currently offlineGatoVolador From Spain, joined Apr 2007, 435 posts, RR: 1
Reply 20, posted (5 years 11 months 1 week 2 days 15 hours ago) and read 2720 times:



Quoting Lufthansa747 (Reply 11):
Legroom worse than any other plane I've flown. First few rows with generous pitch means probably 29" for the back. Absolutely awful.



Quoting Lufthansa747 (Reply 13):
It looked like at least 34" in business and a few rows after the divider. Maybe 31" is the average, but it certainly wasn't that where I was sitting.

They have their A319/20/21 configured with 34'' in business class and 31'' in tourist class (except emergency exit rows). 31'' is not the average. If you ever try Vueling or Clickair you will see an aircraft with the same seats but with only 28 or 29'' (I can't remember) and you will see the difference.

I can tell you for sure that what they sell is what they offer. If they sell 31'' it's because their seats have 31''. This is not a random measurement: it was calculated to see how many rows each model of aircraft could take.

What it's true is that the new seats can modify your perception. With the Recaro super slim seats, the pitch is maintained, but they put more rows, because having seats with less volume liberates some space. The seat is configured to have more legroom BUT then you have the magazine pocket touching your nose. In other words, the bottom part is spacious, but the other one is tight. Having the magazine pocket too close to you makes you think that the pitch is worse than it really is.

Quoting CRJ900 (Reply 15):
If IB use only an A319 on MAD-DME, demand can't be all that big... otherwise they would use an A321?

Actually DME is a route with surprising results. Now they operate twice a day with the A319 (and sometimes I saw the A321, even to LED, which is a good surprise!). Two A319 are 280 daily seats MAD-DME and back. Good enough for an A332. In order to maintain the frequencies (which is good for connectivity reasons), I can see a mix of A332 and A319 configured for medium haul with a true business class (flat seats), IFE, etc.

Morever, do not forget that now the A319 service is quite subpar. If they offered a true business class, and a tourist class with the corresponding amenities, probably the demand would grow, as in the past it grew dramatically when they increased the frequencies from 1 to 2. We already have some examples. In the past, CAI, TLV, and ATH made one stop at BCN. Now that everything goes nonstop, the demands went up. Why? Because before some passengers avoided Iberia and switched to other carriers with a more suitable product. The case of TLV is also significant: IB started one frequency with the A343 (before it was an A320, I think), and the demand grew, particularly in business. People prefer the A343 than the A320 family for a relatively long leg, even more if they fly in business. Add the cargo revenues too.

The lesson learned is that an A332 could substitute the A321 (and most of the other A320 family aircrafts) in many medium-haul routes where it is used, particularly TLV, ATH, LOS, DKR, etc. There is also an important cargo business. I think that in the past IB used to send the B757 to Dakar precisely because of the cargo loads.


User currently offlineGatoVolador From Spain, joined Apr 2007, 435 posts, RR: 1
Reply 21, posted (5 years 11 months 1 week 2 days 15 hours ago) and read 2716 times:



Quoting Lufthansa747 (Reply 19):
I'm 6ft2".

Well, this is collateral damage for being that tall.  Wink

Somebody like you doesn't fits easily in an aircraft seat (tourist class), no matter the airline. hehehe.


User currently offlineStylo777 From Germany, joined Feb 2006, 2976 posts, RR: 12
Reply 22, posted (5 years 11 months 1 week 2 days 14 hours ago) and read 2697 times:



Quoting Lufthansa747 (Reply 19):
You were probably lucky to sit in the forward part of the cabin with pitch meant for C.

I had row 19


User currently offlineLufthansa747 From Philippines, joined May 1999, 3201 posts, RR: 42
Reply 23, posted (5 years 11 months 1 week 2 days 12 hours ago) and read 2637 times:

Ok so maybe it's the seat design or whatever.

But Air Asia's 180-seat A320 is a luxury ride compared to what I expedienced on EC-KOY FRA-MAD (when the bird was 3 weeks old). Out of about 1000 flights I have taken, legroom in row 22 on this bird was absymal. And no way to stretch your legs under the seat because of the design.



Air Asia Super Elite, Cebu Pacific Titanium
User currently offlineViscount724 From Switzerland, joined Oct 2006, 25332 posts, RR: 22
Reply 24, posted (5 years 11 months 1 week 2 days 12 hours ago) and read 2618 times:



Quoting GatoVolador (Reply 20):
With the Recaro super slim seats, the pitch is maintained, but they put more rows, because having seats with less volume liberates some space. The seat is configured to have more legroom BUT then you have the magazine pocket touching your nose. In other words, the bottom part is spacious, but the other one is tight. Having the magazine pocket too close to you makes you think that the pitch is worse than it really is.

I've flown on many LX A319/320/321s with the new Recaro seats and I much prefer them to the old seats. The effective leg/kneeroom has increased although the pitch is tighter than before, and I've never had a problem with the magazine slot at the top of the seatback seeming to be too close. The seats don't recline far enough for that to be noticeable. The legroom is much more important.

The new Recaro seats are especially good on LX Avro RJ100s (same 5-abreast 2-3 layout as the old seats) since they didn't reduce the pitch or increase total seating from the previous 97. If they'd added another row of seats it would have required another flight attendant. With the new seat design but the same pitch as before the RJ100 seats seem very spacious.


25 AFGMEL : And you were still uncomfortable! Well, I am 6'4" and not to put too fine a point on it, endomorphic. That's why I only fly business longhaul. Even J
26 UN_B732 : I don't think we'll see an A330 on Madrid-Moscow. As someone said, I think the A319 is flying it cause there isn't demand for anything bigger. Aeroflo
27 Flyingfool : Didn't know SK has A320's... Regards, Flyingfool
28 NAVEGA : I recenly flew to and from Mexico City on Mexicana Airlines and they have a 32 inch pitch in Coach. My 4 hour flight was very confortable indeed for m
29 UN_B732 : Is part of the problem seat design? SU's A320s have 32" of pitch but I've always been quite comfortable in them (I think they use Recaro seats) -A
30 San747 : They have 319s and 321s... perhaps he meant A320 family?
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