Short notice, but last FCO-LAX service will be Nov 8th. Subsequent flights have been zero'd out.
The announcement of the EWR termination should be within the next few weeks at the most..
Quoting LAXintl (Thread starter): Also effective 10/25 service is reduced to only 3x week on Wed/Thu/Sat. Affected passengers are being rerouted on Delta and Air France.
Flight lasted for a whole 5 months.
The return to LAX was ill-concieved and lacked the connections that were once available on the old LAX-MXP sector. The demand simply is not there for an LAX-FCO flight to be profitable, or to serve a purpose. There is no distinct connections that can be made with AZ via FCO that cannot already be flown with AF or KL in the LAX market. The connectivity of the old LAX-MXP flight at MXP was much, much more robust.
This is beyond the beginning of the end, we are watching the final curtain call system-wide on AZ. The airline cannot shrink to become profitable. The airline for all intents and purposes has not one person to blame but a combination of poorly skilled management teams who were unable to plan for the future, and considered national, or rather regional pride for decisions that have no place for such childlike ideals. More so the Unions who yell and screamed for decades now have run the airline into its literal grave. AZ employees need look no further than their Unions, and management for the shape that the airline is in.
MAH4546 From Sweden, joined Jan 2001, 34615 posts, RR: 70
Reply 2, posted (7 years 7 months 2 weeks 3 days 17 hours ago) and read 10649 times:
No surprise there. I'll miss Alitalia here in LA, but it was obviously going to happen.
I wonder if they will transfer the long-haul capacity elsewhere. In the midst of all their problems and rumors that they will shift back to a Malpensa hub next year, I think that re-opening Buenos Aires and Miami from Malpensa would be a good idea, and they probably have the equipment free to open up both routes at 3x weekly.
Lambert747 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 4, posted (7 years 7 months 2 weeks 3 days 17 hours ago) and read 10581 times:
Quoting MAH4546 (Reply 2):
I wonder if they will transfer the long-haul capacity elsewhere. In the midst of all their problems and rumors that they will shift back to a Malpensa hub next year, I think that re-opening Buenos Aires and Miami from Malpensa would be a good idea, and they probably have the equipment free to open up both routes at 3x weekly
The fundamental problem is now as can be seen AZ is chopping its European network nearly in half. Now we have LAX on the chopping block and EWR is soon to follow. I cant help but think AZ as is will not make it as much as the Italian Press and Berlusconi would like beyond Christmas, if that.
AZ is a dead brand. Even if LH, BA, or AF-KL come in and invest money, the name will remain. The AZ name for many, many people is associated with crappy service, shoddy quality, and hit and miss employee strikes. Things cant get much better when your national airline is the brunt of most jokes. Malitalia - Case in point. Indeed AZ that we knew, those of us that flew it in better times is truly nothing but a memory. This is all reminding me of Pan Am at the end, as well as TWA. Both tried to shrink smaller, and smaller in an effort to stave off death. In the end they both died, and both were much, much more globally recognized airlines.
Quoting MAH4546 (Reply 2): No surprise there. I'll miss Alitalia here in LA, but it was obviously going to happen.
The announcement that FCO would gain LAX service over MXP sealed its fate before the wheels first pushed back from the gate at FCO. There was no chance. What little sustainable West Coast to Italy traffic on a nonstop basis for all intents and purposes as far as the business end goes heads to the Northern Italian regions. There is no point to go to Rome besides vacationers, VFR traffic, or connecting feed(of which FCO connections were outnumbered by the connections once available at MXP nearly 2-1). The fate was sealed from day one. Additionally I cannot help but think AZ LAX-FCO was impacted as well by the DL LAX draw down, the same way that even AF has had to discontinue LAX-LHR.
Flyyul From Italy, joined Jun 2000, 5038 posts, RR: 50
Reply 5, posted (7 years 7 months 2 weeks 3 days 16 hours ago) and read 10560 times:
LAX and now DXB-FCO, that is also on been zero'd out.
The LAX route wouldnt have lasted long because your flying a B772 a long distance for mediocre unit revenue. Alitalia was much better focusing on the eastern seaboard, where im sure BOS/YYZ/MIA make money for them.
Yes well Delta certainly did not help the situation. When the flight was announced atleast AZ had some connections it could market albeit on RJs to popular destinations such as SFO and LAS which all disappeared after the flight commenced.
From the desert to the sea, to all of Southern California
Hardiwv From Brazil, joined Oct 2004, 8780 posts, RR: 46
Reply 8, posted (7 years 7 months 2 weeks 3 days 16 hours ago) and read 10434 times:
Quoting MAH4546 (Reply 2): I wonder if they will transfer the long-haul capacity elsewhere. In the midst of all their problems and rumors that they will shift back to a Malpensa hub next year, I think that re-opening Buenos Aires and Miami from Malpensa would be a good idea, and they probably have the equipment free to open up both routes at 3x weekly.
I think we could see FCO-GIG coming in the new weeks or months this is a route AZ showed interest in the past and could have excellent returns.
Davescj From United States of America, joined Jun 2007, 2328 posts, RR: 0
Reply 17, posted (7 years 7 months 2 weeks 3 days 11 hours ago) and read 9718 times:
AZ (with its new investors) needs to decide who is their fundamental market. The problem is that they are getting into the game so late. AF/KLM, BA, and LH/LX have a massive intra-Europe connection shedule, OK has the connections to Eastern Europe/Russia, Air One has taken a massive bit into the Milan route network, including flights to North America.
What is left for AZ? Niche player into Italy? I think more is possible, but currently it is an O/D service more than a true European connector.
It will be interesting to see what happens in the coming months.
GermanInItaly From Germany, joined Sep 2008, 43 posts, RR: 0
Reply 18, posted (7 years 7 months 2 weeks 3 days 9 hours ago) and read 9446 times:
As i have said already, i do not understand how some people make judgments without knowing what they speak about.
The new owners of Alitalia and Air One (CAI) will receive by the end of this month the license to take over the companies and the launch of the new Alitalia will be later this year.
The decision to disconnect LAX is due to the planning of the old and new properties. Alitalia will not leave LAX forever but only until it will be integrated the long-haul fleet.
As the new Alitalia will be managed entirely by privates, they will keep the most profitable routes. LAX can probably be replaced by a more profitable destination until the new Alitalia will not receive new long-haul aircrafts.
Jfk777 From United States of America, joined Aug 2006, 9782 posts, RR: 6
Reply 19, posted (7 years 7 months 2 weeks 3 days 6 hours ago) and read 8749 times:
The LAX-FCO route is a ROME problem not so much an LAX problem. FCO has terrible yields as most Premuim Class Italian traffic is from the rich north in Milan, Italy's business center. I wonder how Miami to FCO is doing instead of MXP to MIA.
Lambert747 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 22, posted (7 years 7 months 2 weeks 3 days 4 hours ago) and read 7996 times:
Quoting Davescj (Reply 21): I have to say, I"m surprised it isn't a 777 now. But, then again, look how many of AA's flignt to Europe are also 767 (including to FCO). Must be a capacity issue.
I think there has been an ongoing argument from over the years that the money to be made in the business market is ORD-MXP, while the summer is offset with the Economy Class driven tourist traffic to FCO. Perhaps a return to the way AZ used to do things. As with LAX they would operate a 747, then MD-11 on LAX-MXP-FCO. The same for a number of years with the 747 on MIA-MXP-FCO. One flight that was marketed as serving both markets and passengers could connect to respective services in either MXP or FCO. However each time I flew LAX-MXP, the majority of the onboard traffic in Business and a very healthy chunk of Economy would deplane at MXP, while a sporadic few would continue to FCO.
Quoting FlyMD (Reply 20): Maybe we can now see the AZ 777 here at ORD (doubtful, but I can hope!)
As with the above, I question the longevity of ORD-FCO. AZ does not receive that much connecting traffic at ORD, much unlike that of the AA ORD-FCO service. AA has a direct advantage. Even if AZ were to resume ORD-MXP I dont see the route viable for the long term. The core confidence that the business traffic had, or shall I say what little confidence they had is now lost. Booking a ticket on AZ is nothing more than a gamble. The 777 to ORD is much to much plane. The only scenario that AZ could operate a 777 to ORD is if frequency was reduced to 3 or 4x per week and the route combined into ORD-MXP-FCO.
Quoting Jfk777 (Reply 19): The LAX-FCO route is a ROME problem not so much an LAX problem.
Each time I flew LAX-MXP over the years. I started flying on the route in 1988 when it was a 747-200Combi, and stopped flying the route in 2001 when it was a M1M, the route had a very different crowd heading to Milan vs Rome. The Milanese traffic was mainly in the premium classes, and the ones in Economy were mainly Northern Italian tourists, or Californians of Italian descent visiting family in Northern Italy. Even more so when MXP became the de-facto hub over FCO there was a very healthy amount of Persian, and African connecting traffic. With the Rome crowd it was mainly backpackers, and American tourists, or the Southern Italian tourists who were in love of the idea of the Wild West and Hollywood.
Quoting Davescj (Reply 17): What is left for AZ? Niche player into Italy? I think more is possible, but currently it is an O/D service more than a true European connector.
The problem is AZ even struggles in strong O/D markets. How can AZ continue as is when it is cutting routes that are O/D driven such as MXP-VLC, FCO-VIE, or MXP-MUC.
Quoting Davescj (Reply 17): AZ (with its new investors) needs to decide who is their fundamental market. The problem is that they are getting into the game so late. AF/KLM, BA, and LH/LX have a massive intra-Europe connection shedule, OK has the connections to Eastern Europe/Russia, Air One has taken a massive bit into the Milan route network, including flights to North America
For all intents and purposes as I have said before AZ is like some kind of person dealing with a multiple personality disorder. Everyone knows there is a problem with AZ, however no one is willing to take the medication to calm or stem the issue. AZ in every sense of the word is a lost cause. There is nothing left to salvage. The image on the tail is just that. It is no longer an image associated with quality, with consumer confidence, or even national pride. Alitalia has become a joke in Italy.. Malitalia
Quoting MAH4546 (Reply 15): BOS is profitable during the summer; but the winter losses make the route a money loser.
At best AZ is wise to change BOS to a seasonal route = Apr-Oct
Quoting MAH4546 (Reply 15): So far, though, the switch to FCO - I don't think it was a good idea
It was a seriously foul idea aided only by a sense of regionalistic pride.
Quoting MAH4546 (Reply 15): Supposedly they will re-enter China next summer.
That is the rumor. The problem still remains can AZ get its operation in order to make the I believe 3rd attempt at China work. In addition I do not see FCO as a useful gateway to the Far East, as it caters to a very touristic market. While as has been said time and time again MXP is much, much more of a business market. I can see HKG, PEK, PVG from MXP, but certainly not FCO.
Quoting AirxLiban (Reply 16): Nice to have the green 777 at Los Angeles, but at least AZ's departure will roughly coincide with the arrival of EK's 777-200LR
A friend was talking about this very same thing the other day, he described it as:
"Trading a tug boat, for a Luxury Liner"
Quoting Hardiwv (Reply 11): KIX and EWR have good chance of being dropped before the end of the year.
Another case in point of two markets that should have never been moved from MXP.
GermanInItaly From Germany, joined Sep 2008, 43 posts, RR: 0
Reply 23, posted (7 years 7 months 2 weeks 3 days 3 hours ago) and read 7637 times:
Quoting Lambert747 (Reply 22): For all intents and purposes as I have said before AZ is like some kind of person dealing with a multiple personality disorder. Everyone knows there is a problem with AZ, however no one is willing to take the medication to calm or stem the issue. AZ in every sense of the word is a lost cause. There is nothing left to salvage. The image on the tail is just that. It is no longer an image associated with quality, with consumer confidence, or even national pride. Alitalia has become a joke in Italy.. Malitalia
Fortunately, you're not leading any airline otherwise there could be a risk of failure even before starting.
It is you the person to whom i referred before that too often speaks without having the foundation and knowledge making comments out of the reality.
I suggest you to be much more cautious and to be better informed in the future because this is not the first time that the facts show the opposite of what you say.
Let me conclude with irony: the only thing that has become a joke are your comments.
FLYYUL From Italy, joined Jun 2000, 5038 posts, RR: 50
Reply 24, posted (7 years 7 months 2 weeks 3 days 3 hours ago) and read 7552 times:
Lambert747 obviously shoots from the hip, with very little information to back it up.
At the end of the day, Alitalia could not attract Milan's top end market segment. Most of the person travellings on Alitalia's intercontinental services were low-yield leisure and significant amount of flow traffic coming from various parts of North Africa/Middle East and Europe. Popular high-yield destinations such as Shanghai, Delhi and Mumbai were all unprofitable, and were let go... of course the new CAI, wants to bring them back, because they know better
To say that things were rosy at Milan compared to now, is an obvious misrepresentation of reality.
The reality is that Alitalia is losing 5 B767-300 additional to the 3 that were let go this summer. This has forced AZ to cancel all the weakest intercontinental routes. These 5 763s are being let go because AZ does not have the short-term capital to finance the renewing of the leases.
To claim that the move to Rome is a disaster, is once again short-sighted. The move was made in April, and it has been less than 6 months.. who expected an overnight turn around of the company?
: Ahh... Regional pride agian? Not because the Northern Italian traffic did not have the yield, it was solely because of AZ and its lack of concentrati
: The privatization of Alitalia. You were sure that the company failed and also the negotiations with CAI. Sorry for you.
: Go back and read what I have written, more specifically read about the failures of the FCO route network in just the past few months alone. Those fai
: It doesn't change you must be much more cautious and better informed.
: Read my posts, you are talking into circles.. What do you mean about informed? Is it not a fact the AZ has not made a overhaul of Magnifica since its
: He was sure that the company WOULD fail (because in the end, AZ did), and, unfortunately, it didn't (through a new holding company) though it should
: Just like many others did already. Too many hoped AZ to fail.. to blame "someone"..
: Especially when you see SkyTeam partner AF having a 343 or 332 on a less than daily basis. +, Italy is farther away from most European big spots for
: Technically, AZ has been declared INSOLVENT by a judge of the Court of Rome, the debt made before September has been FROZEN (it can't be paid and it
: Well, in less than two months, it was upgraded to a 777-200ER year-round.
: They would lose more money by operating widebodies on the MXP-FCO sector than they would make on the longhaul sector. The days of those tag-on widebo
: No, I (like many) hoped it would fail to stop bleeding precious tax Euros that could have gone to much, much better causes (like cleaning all the gra
: Hi, Obviously the AZ saga has been going on for a while now. It is sad that so many routes are being cut. However, I noticed that both FCO-ALG and MXP
: Next thread will read "Alitalia discontinues all routes". Even then I get the feeling they will still keep their staff and keep paying them, even if t
: AZ used to fly those routes because all AZ long-haul crews were based in Rome and not Milan. Either the crews flew empty long-haul planes from Rome t
: This was the start-up LF on FCO-LAX-FCO Jun 79,8% Jul 84,4% Aug 84,5% Sep 72,3% Please note that Sep was affected by strikes and the general fear of A
: I've been told by airport sources that AZ is returning back to LAX on March 26, 2009. Can anyone confirm booking schedules because that should be load
: Just booked a flight in April on AZ's website...so I guess they are coming back. This thread is kaput. BN747
: Yes, LAX comes back at the end of March. The suspension is seasonal. EWR appears to stay as well, with the lower-density 767 taking the place of the 7
: The problem is that AZ won't be here at the end of March! We'll have to see what the new owners of AZ (CAI) will decide.
: Spoke with AZ's reps who advise the published LAX schedules are nothing more then place holders. No one has a clue as to what the schedule will be com