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YYZ To YVR Via Interstate 94 And US2.  
User currently offlineGhYHZ From Canada, joined Feb 2008, 233 posts, RR: 0
Posted (5 years 6 months 2 days 8 hours ago) and read 3156 times:

Just arrived in YVR and the best way to describe our route today was YYZ direct to Green Bay then mostly following I-94 and US2 to Seattle before turning to YVR.

Don’t fly YYZ-YVR regularly, but anytime previously we have stayed within Canada (overhead the Soo) or Duluth before reentering Canada along the North Dakota-Saskatchewan border. Never crossed almost entirely in US airspace.

http://flightaware.com/live/flight/ACA181

[Edited 2008-10-19 16:03:59]

[Edited 2008-10-19 16:06:30]

[Edited 2008-10-19 16:07:05]

18 replies: All unread, jump to last
 
User currently offlineBakersdozen From Canada, joined Nov 2006, 336 posts, RR: 0
Reply 1, posted (5 years 6 months 2 days 7 hours ago) and read 3147 times:

That's almost the most direct route. Just south of the border.

Haven't checked any weather maps but the jetstream must be further south today pushing flights down to try to avoid it.


User currently offlineViscount724 From Switzerland, joined Oct 2006, 24075 posts, RR: 22
Reply 2, posted (5 years 6 months 2 days 7 hours ago) and read 3089 times:

That route isn't unusual. I have flown YVR-YYZ many times where almost the entire route is over the US. Depends on the winds. Similarly, I have also flown routes like JFK/EWR-SEA where you are over Canada almost all the way.

Another reason these days for avoiding overflying Canada when feasible is to avoid the NavCan overflight fees for ATC/navigation services which can be significant.


User currently offlineThreepoint From Canada, joined Oct 2005, 2127 posts, RR: 9
Reply 3, posted (5 years 6 months 2 days 6 hours ago) and read 3003 times:



Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 2):
Another reason these days for avoiding overflying Canada when feasible is to avoid the NavCan overflight fees for ATC/navigation services which can be significant.

Do passenger manifests (to DHS) become an issue when transiting over US airspace - even briefly?



The nice thing about a mistake is the pleasure it gives others.
User currently offlineCubsrule From United States of America, joined May 2004, 22303 posts, RR: 20
Reply 4, posted (5 years 6 months 2 days 6 hours ago) and read 2964 times:



Quoting Threepoint (Reply 3):
Do passenger manifests (to DHS) become an issue when transiting over US airspace - even briefly?

There's a chance that, if it's ever required on a given route AC automatically sends manifests because-- even when the flight plan doesn't call for it-- there's a good chance of a routing which crosses into US airspace.



I can't decide whether I miss the tulip or the bowling shoe more
User currently offlineGhYHZ From Canada, joined Feb 2008, 233 posts, RR: 0
Reply 5, posted (5 years 6 months 2 days 6 hours ago) and read 2933 times:



Quoting Cubsrule (Reply 4):
There's a chance that, if it's ever required on a given route AC automatically sends manifests because-- even when the flight plan doesn't call for it-- there's a good chance of a routing which crosses into US airspace.

Just about everything between the Maritimes (YHZ, YQM, YYG, YSJ, YFC) and central Canada also transits US airspace: about 200 miles across Maine.


User currently offlineGte439u From Canada, joined Nov 2003, 360 posts, RR: 1
Reply 6, posted (5 years 6 months 1 day 11 hours ago) and read 2549 times:



Quoting Cubsrule (Reply 4):
Quoting Threepoint (Reply 3):
Do passenger manifests (to DHS) become an issue when transiting over US airspace - even briefly?

There's a chance that, if it's ever required on a given route AC automatically sends manifests because-- even when the flight plan doesn't call for it-- there's a good chance of a routing which crosses into US airspace.

Have there been any privacy actions taken in regards to transmitting domestic Canadian passenger manifests to US authorities?


User currently offlineArrow From Canada, joined Jun 2002, 2675 posts, RR: 2
Reply 7, posted (5 years 6 months 1 day 10 hours ago) and read 2468 times:
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Quoting GhYHZ (Reply 5):
Just about everything between the Maritimes (YHZ, YQM, YYG, YSJ, YFC) and central Canada also transits US airspace: about 200 miles across Maine.



Quoting Cubsrule (Reply 4):
There's a chance that, if it's ever required on a given route AC automatically sends manifests because-- even when the flight plan doesn't call for it-- there's a good chance of a routing which crosses into US airspace.

This causes huge problems for people on the US no-fly list -- Maher Arar being the highest profile example. When he travels within Canada - west to east -- he has to make sure he books a flight that stays north of the US border. I think it means he has to go through Edmonton or Winnipeg, which is the only way he can be assured that the flight won't enter US territory. I'm not sure how the rules work, but if an Air Canada flight has a US no-fly person on it, it doesn't get to fly in US airspace. That would be very expensive for a lot of flights, especially YVR-YYZ flights, which are almost always flown in US airspace.

Hopefully regime change south of the border will fix this, but I wouldn't bet money on it.



Never let the facts get in the way of a good story.
User currently offlineCubsrule From United States of America, joined May 2004, 22303 posts, RR: 20
Reply 8, posted (5 years 6 months 1 day 8 hours ago) and read 2414 times:



Quoting Arrow (Reply 7):
Hopefully regime change south of the border will fix this, but I wouldn't bet money on it.

IMO, if Canada or AC wants a change, they need to be more vocal about it on this side of the border.



I can't decide whether I miss the tulip or the bowling shoe more
User currently offlineLongHauler From Canada, joined Mar 2004, 4760 posts, RR: 43
Reply 9, posted (5 years 6 months 1 day 7 hours ago) and read 2353 times:

The flights are built to minimum cost. Normally this is "minimum time track". That is to say the flight flies the route, altitude and speed to take advantage of the best winds. Sometimes it is routed through Canada, sometimes not.

Another variable is ATC costs. Apparently it costs about CAD 700 more to fly in Canadian airspace on a YYZ-YVR flight than through US airspace. This too is factored when building a flight plan.

Quoting Arrow (Reply 7):
I'm not sure how the rules work, but if an Air Canada flight has a US no-fly person on it, it doesn't get to fly in US airspace.

This is not the case. Flight Dispatch, which builds the flight plans do not have access nor do they consult with passenger manifests.

The US was suggesting that they wanted access to Canadian passenger manifests as some Canadian flights use US airspace. They did get some sympathy from Canadians, but then the US Department of Homeland Security went too far. They also demanded passenger lists of ANY Canadian flight, under the guise that some Canadian flights come close to US airspace.

When Homeland Security suggested they would not allow any Canadian aircraft in US airspace unless the Canadians complied, they were eventually forced to back down. The retaliation, namely not allowing US aircraft in Canadian airspace would have a far greater impact ... affecting some Asian, and most European flights from the US.



Never gonna grow up, never gonna slow down .... Barefoot Blue Jean Night
User currently offlineGmonney From Canada, joined Jan 2001, 2159 posts, RR: 20
Reply 10, posted (5 years 6 months 1 day 6 hours ago) and read 2298 times:

I flew the red eye a few years back and did it in 3.5 hrs, it was windy and we landed on 06L, don't think we made a turn all night.... strait out on 8? i think and strait in.... great flight!

G



Drive it like you stole it!
User currently offlinePnwtraveler From Canada, joined Jun 2007, 2199 posts, RR: 12
Reply 11, posted (5 years 6 months 1 day 5 hours ago) and read 2282 times:

Some times I have skirted south of the border but mostly have turned North somewhere much before Seattle. I have tuned North south of Calgary and come North below the Okanagan. But I have never been South of Mount Baker which would be necessary to fly direct to Seattle. Seattle is a three hour drive south of Vancouver so that is a fair distance. The winds must have been very favourable to add at least another half hour flying time.

The majority of time we have either cut over the Great Lakes and sometimes cut the corner of Michigan or Wisconsin and come into Canada just south of Winnipeg and crossed Brandon.

All depends on the wind conditions. When those conditions have changed mid flight there have also been some altitude and or course changes.


User currently offlineArrow From Canada, joined Jun 2002, 2675 posts, RR: 2
Reply 12, posted (5 years 6 months 1 day 1 hour ago) and read 2192 times:
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Quoting LongHauler (Reply 9):
When Homeland Security suggested they would not allow any Canadian aircraft in US airspace unless the Canadians complied, they were eventually forced to back down. The retaliation, namely not allowing US aircraft in Canadian airspace would have a far greater impact ... affecting some Asian, and most European flights from the US.

I didn't know that. Thanks for the clarification.



Never let the facts get in the way of a good story.
User currently offlineVisityyj From Canada, joined Jun 2000, 519 posts, RR: 0
Reply 13, posted (5 years 6 months 11 hours ago) and read 1978 times:



Quoting Gte439u (Reply 6):
Have there been any privacy actions taken in regards to transmitting domestic Canadian passenger manifests to US authorities?

No, nobody in the Canadian government has the b***s to stand up to the US and their nonsensical (and ineffective) 'lists'
 Angry


User currently offlineThreepoint From Canada, joined Oct 2005, 2127 posts, RR: 9
Reply 14, posted (5 years 6 months 6 hours ago) and read 1852 times:



Quoting Arrow (Reply 7):
Hopefully regime change south of the border will fix this, but I wouldn't bet money on it.

Exceedingly unlikely I'm afraid. They'll remain a quasi-police state for a while yet.



The nice thing about a mistake is the pleasure it gives others.
User currently offlineAAH732UAL From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 15, posted (5 years 6 months 6 hours ago) and read 1840 times:

They might have used that flight as sort of a "test" to see if using a more straight line route with the NRS waypoints was a good idea. Looks like the day before was another test via the conventional airways. I think UA did something similar to this on a IAD-SAN flight the other day. They used a Q airway and went sorta south to get it then on toward SAN.

 twocents 


User currently offlineAWACSooner From United States of America, joined Jan 2008, 1800 posts, RR: 1
Reply 16, posted (5 years 6 months 6 hours ago) and read 1822 times:



Quoting Arrow (Reply 7):
Maher Arar

Who?

Quoting Arrow (Reply 7):
Hopefully regime change south of the border will fix this, but I wouldn't bet money on it.

No matter who gets elected, it's not going to change.


User currently offlineLongHauler From Canada, joined Mar 2004, 4760 posts, RR: 43
Reply 17, posted (5 years 6 months 5 hours ago) and read 1752 times:



Quoting Gte439u (Reply 6):
Have there been any privacy actions taken in regards to transmitting domestic Canadian passenger manifests to US authorities?

The only passenger manifests given to US authorities are those for flights destined to or originating from the US. Passenger manifests for flights overflying, or flying near US airspace is not given to US authorities.

The US wanted those lists but was denied. Especially when it was asked publicly to the US, "What do you propose to do if you see a passenger on an Air Canada flight from say Ottawa to Edmonton, that is on your inaccurate and ineffective "no-fly" list?" Remember, it was not just overflights they were concerned about, but also flights that remained within Canadian airspace, but might flight near US airspace!

Also, remember, Air Canada flies Cuban nationals every over the US, on its several daily Canada - Cuba flights.



Never gonna grow up, never gonna slow down .... Barefoot Blue Jean Night
User currently offlineGte439u From Canada, joined Nov 2003, 360 posts, RR: 1
Reply 18, posted (5 years 6 months 4 hours ago) and read 1718 times:



Quoting AWACSooner (Reply 16):
Quoting Arrow (Reply 7):
Maher Arar

Who?

http://www.cbc.ca/news/background/arar/

As an American expat in Canada, I asked the same question. He's big news here in Canada.

To everyone else, thank you for the information.


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