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Olympic Axes GVA  
User currently offlineOlympicATH From United Kingdom, joined Jul 2001, 292 posts, RR: 0
Posted (5 years 10 months 4 weeks 9 hours ago) and read 3033 times:

Hi guys,

Olympic posted a press release on its website today stating that it will stop flying to GVA. This is not a big surprise, since GVA has been the worst performing route in Europe for OA (the second one is VIE) and there have been rumors about this for quite a while. So after ZRH a few years back, now GVA is gone too. It's really a pity to see OA shrink like this....

What's interesting and totally unexpected though is that they will be codesharing with Flybaboo (?!), which will begin 5 weekly flights between Geneva and Athens for the winter season.

All changes will be effective on October 26.


Press realease in Greek only

31 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineFLYYUL From Italy, joined Jun 2000, 4980 posts, RR: 51
Reply 1, posted (5 years 10 months 4 weeks 9 hours ago) and read 3031 times:

When is longhaul going to happen?

User currently offlineBA From United States of America, joined May 2000, 11153 posts, RR: 58
Reply 2, posted (5 years 10 months 4 weeks 9 hours ago) and read 3016 times:

Wow, this is shocking that they are exiting the Swiss market completely...


"Generosity is giving more than you can, and pride is taking less than you need." - Khalil Gibran
User currently offlineOlympicATH From United Kingdom, joined Jul 2001, 292 posts, RR: 0
Reply 3, posted (5 years 10 months 4 weeks 9 hours ago) and read 3000 times:



Quoting BA (Reply 2):
Wow, this is shocking that they are exiting the Swiss market completely...

My point exactly. However, with the competition being Swiss and its 3 daily flights to ZRH and 1 to GVA (plus the daily SKG-ZRH service) this was bound to happen.

Quoting FLYYUL (Reply 1):
When is longhaul going to happen?

I don't think they will touch long-haul before the privatisation process is over (whatever the outcome may be). It's a big decision and the potential investor will need to have a saying. However, I don't think OA is interested in giving up long-haul altogether. JNB and YUL are rumored to be somehow problematic but it looks like JFK and YYZ are definitely staying.


User currently offlineOA260 From Ireland, joined Nov 2006, 26977 posts, RR: 57
Reply 4, posted (5 years 10 months 4 weeks 1 hour ago) and read 2902 times:



Quoting OlympicATH (Reply 3):
My point exactly. However, with the competition being Swiss and its 3 daily flights to ZRH and 1 to GVA (plus the daily SKG-ZRH service) this was bound to happen.

Why is this such a surprise? Its not to the people who know OA closely and the staff. There are many more routes to be axed in the next few months and it has been said for months now that OA will shrink in size.


User currently offlineZRH From Switzerland, joined Nov 1999, 5568 posts, RR: 36
Reply 5, posted (5 years 10 months 4 weeks ago) and read 2865 times:

Excuse my ignorance: but to which longhaul destinations does OA fly and with what aircrafts? It is really sad not see the nice Olympic colours here in Switzerland anymore.

User currently offlineOA260 From Ireland, joined Nov 2006, 26977 posts, RR: 57
Reply 6, posted (5 years 10 months 3 weeks 6 days 23 hours ago) and read 2812 times:



Quoting ZRH (Reply 5):

JFK/YUL/YYZ/JNB With A340's. All from ATH.

Sad to see for the Swiss members but no airline not even LH can compare to the Swiss service out of Greece.


User currently offlineME AVN FAN From Switzerland, joined May 2002, 13920 posts, RR: 25
Reply 7, posted (5 years 10 months 3 weeks 6 days 22 hours ago) and read 2761 times:



Quoting OlympicATH (Thread starter):
after ZRH

-
I still remember OA Switzerland declaring that they were to concentrate onto the far far more interesting GVA market. This came after ZRH introduced restrictions on too old airplanes, which OA then WAS flying. When being told about this, OA reacted in a fury. Now it looks as if the GVA market was not that spectular after all .
-

Quoting OlympicATH (Reply 3):
My point exactly. However, with the competition being Swiss and its 3 daily flights to ZRH and 1 to GVA

-
Your "point" however is wrong as only the withdrawal of OA from ZRH-ATH, where planes always were full enabled Swiss International to expand in the way it did. And as I strongly DISlike monopolies, I did and do dislike what is going on here.
-

Quoting OA260 (Reply 6):
no airline not even LH can compare to the Swiss service out of Greece

-
Nice in some ways, BUT I detest monopolies. And so I hope that FlyBaboo can and will persevere on this route !


User currently offlineCambrian From United Kingdom, joined Sep 2003, 619 posts, RR: 5
Reply 8, posted (5 years 10 months 3 weeks 6 days 12 hours ago) and read 2596 times:

This is a shame for OA. Will this mean an increase in capacity on LX between GVA and ATH? I flew this route last week in C class- it was packed.

ATH is one of the few routes ex GVA that Swiss kept on after scaling back so much at Geneva.

Could this go to 2x daily to complement the ZRH services, and offer more opportunities for connections via GVA on LX?


User currently offlineZRH From Switzerland, joined Nov 1999, 5568 posts, RR: 36
Reply 9, posted (5 years 10 months 3 weeks 6 days 11 hours ago) and read 2561 times:



Quoting Cambrian (Reply 8):
Could this go to 2x daily to complement the ZRH services, and offer more opportunities for connections via GVA on LX?

I doubt, because of the lack of aircrafts and crews. Furthermore does LX not use GVA mainly as a transfer airport but rather for point to point flights. The connection services LH/LX offer are via FRA/MUC and ZRH.


User currently offlineEk773er From Greece, joined Oct 2008, 49 posts, RR: 0
Reply 10, posted (5 years 10 months 3 weeks 6 days 1 hour ago) and read 2475 times:



Quoting OlympicATH (Reply 3):
I don't think they will touch long-haul before the privatisation process is over (whatever the outcome may be). It's a big decision and the potential investor will need to have a saying.

Yes they are. The government stated that the potential buyer will get OA free of any obligation and with equipment and workforce to operate a 65% of the current flight schedule. This means that they will drop some European and some long haul destinations by April 2009. It is up to the potential buyer to decide what to do after April provided that OA still owns the slots in question.



Quoting OlympicATH (Reply 3):
I don't think OA is interested in giving up long-haul altogether. JNB and YUL are rumored to be somehow problematic but it looks like JFK and YYZ are definitely staying.

Yeap that is correct. They will probably scrap YUL and perhaps fly to JNB seasonally but they are definitely keeping JFK and YYZ.


User currently offlineME AVN FAN From Switzerland, joined May 2002, 13920 posts, RR: 25
Reply 11, posted (5 years 10 months 3 weeks 5 days 16 hours ago) and read 2313 times:



Quoting Cambrian (Reply 8):
This is a shame for OA. Will this mean an increase in capacity on LX between GVA and ATH? I flew this route last week in C class- it was packed.

-
Not necessarily. Much depends on whether LX is to increase capacitiy, and /or how successful FlyBaboo will be on this route.

Quoting Cambrian (Reply 8):
Could this go to 2x daily to complement the ZRH services, and offer more opportunities for connections via GVA on LX?

-
As "ZRH" outlined above, LH/LX are to get connection-traffic through FRA/MUC/ZRH. One of the problems of OA in Switzerland was that they never realized the regional realities of Switzerland, failed to realize that ZRH and GVA, and to a good extent BSL/MLH are not one market but three nicely different markets.


User currently offlineCambrian From United Kingdom, joined Sep 2003, 619 posts, RR: 5
Reply 12, posted (5 years 10 months 3 weeks 5 days 13 hours ago) and read 2236 times:



Quoting ME AVN FAN (Reply 11):
Not necessarily. Much depends on whether LX is to increase capacitiy, and /or how successful FlyBaboo will be on this route.

I wonder if there is potential for a twice daily service on LX on the Geneva-Athens route.

As for GVA not being a connecting airport, there is some potential for connections via GVA on LX. I regularly connect onto the Athens flight from London City. It is also possible to connect to JFK via Geneva.

Of course, the lack of GVA-LHR flights is a major hole in the LX network. LX made a massive strategic error in giving up their slots for this flight. Now BA have a monopoly from LHR. Sometimes in the winter there are Saturday only flights from LHR to GVA on LX.

Will LX ever serve Heathrow from Geneva again?

When I think of the MD11 and A330 that LX would send from ZRH, the Crossair MD's from BSL and multiple daily frequencies from GVA that happened in the recent past, LX is a shadow of its former self at Heathrow.

Of course, they have massively ramped up their operation at LCY.


User currently offlineElven From Greece, joined Apr 2006, 33 posts, RR: 0
Reply 13, posted (5 years 10 months 3 weeks 5 days 12 hours ago) and read 2206 times:

How do you think a possible aquisition of Olympic by Qatar Airways will affect the status of Olympic.

As Reuters is reporting this evening:

http://www.portfolio.com/news-market...rways-interested-in-olympic-greece


User currently offlineFLYYUL From Italy, joined Jun 2000, 4980 posts, RR: 51
Reply 14, posted (5 years 10 months 3 weeks 5 days 12 hours ago) and read 2195 times:



Quoting OlympicATH (Reply 3):
I don't think they will touch long-haul before the privatisation process is over (whatever the outcome may be). It's a big decision and the potential investor will need to have a saying. However, I don't think OA is interested in giving up long-haul altogether. JNB and YUL are rumored to be somehow problematic but it looks like JFK and YYZ are definitely staying.

Yeah OA has to fly YUL per Canadian bilateral. Believe it or not, they pick up more PAX in YUL than YYZ, mostly BEY/CAI flow an

Quoting Ek773er (Reply 10):
Yeap that is correct. They will probably scrap YUL and perhaps fly to JNB seasonally but they are definitely keeping JFK and YYZ.

As per Canada - Greece bilateral, Montreal and Toronto must be served mutually.

The rumour is them pulling of Canada all together given the tag flight (YYZ-YUL-ATH)


User currently offlineViscount724 From Switzerland, joined Oct 2006, 25311 posts, RR: 22
Reply 15, posted (5 years 10 months 3 weeks 5 days 12 hours ago) and read 2192 times:



Quoting Cambrian (Reply 12):
Will LX ever serve Heathrow from Geneva again?

I don't see the point. LCY is probably much more profitable and is more attractive to high-yield business traffic. BA can connect GVA-LHR passengers to their worldwide network. For LX it would be almost totally O&D traffic. They're best to stick with LCY, where they were successful in driving BA out of the market a few years ago when they briefly offered GVA-LCY service.


User currently offlineOA260 From Ireland, joined Nov 2006, 26977 posts, RR: 57
Reply 16, posted (5 years 10 months 3 weeks 5 days 6 hours ago) and read 2092 times:



Quoting Elven (Reply 13):
How do you think a possible aquisition of Olympic by Qatar Airways will affect the status of Olympic.

As expected political meetings between Greece and Qatar as this is the best option for OA. Greece is pushing heavily for a QR deal.


User currently offlineEk773er From Greece, joined Oct 2008, 49 posts, RR: 0
Reply 17, posted (5 years 10 months 3 weeks 5 days 2 hours ago) and read 2033 times:



Quoting Elven (Reply 13):
How do you think a possible aquisition of Olympic by Qatar Airways will affect the status of Olympic.

Well for starters they will organize OA and run it properly as an airline something that is missing for a long time now. Secondly they will probably renew the fleet retiring the aging 737 and ATR and probably introducing new equipment. They should keep the A340s as they are relative new (9 years old) and probably expand the long haul fleet with some A330s.
I really want to see this go through as IMO this is the only real chance OA has right now to survive...


User currently offline6thfreedom From Bermuda, joined Sep 2004, 3328 posts, RR: 20
Reply 18, posted (5 years 10 months 3 weeks 5 days 2 hours ago) and read 2025 times:



Quoting Ek773er (Reply 17):
Well for starters they will organize OA and run it properly as an airline something that is missing for a long time now. Secondly they will probably renew the fleet retiring the aging 737 and ATR and probably introducing new equipment. They should keep the A340s as they are relative new (9 years old) and probably expand the long haul fleet with some A330s.
I really want to see this go through as IMO this is the only real chance OA has right now to survive...

Qatar can run the airline, and greek shipping tankers can move Qatar's natural gas all over the globe.

a joint venture that has air and sea covered!


User currently offlineME AVN FAN From Switzerland, joined May 2002, 13920 posts, RR: 25
Reply 19, posted (5 years 10 months 3 weeks 4 days 17 hours ago) and read 1890 times:



Quoting Cambrian (Reply 12):
I wonder if there is potential for a twice daily service on LX on the Geneva-Athens route.

-
Difficult to say. I hope they will NOT do so, as they otherwise might sweep FlyBaboo out of that route.
-


User currently offlineOlympicATH From United Kingdom, joined Jul 2001, 292 posts, RR: 0
Reply 20, posted (5 years 10 months 3 weeks 4 days 15 hours ago) and read 1853 times:



Quoting FLYYUL (Reply 14):
Believe it or not, they pick up more PAX in YUL than YYZ, mostly BEY/CAI flow

FLYYUL could you please tell me if you have any official data to support this? I'm actually pretty interested in knowing how this route performs for OA. I think I saw some official figures at some point showing heavier numbers for YYZ. Besides, I fly ATH-YUL and YUL-ATH pretty often and it usually seems like most passengers fly from/to YYZ. Of course I could be wrong...

I don't know if you remember this, but during summer 2007, on top of the 4 weekly tag flights, OA added a fifth flight to YYZ only. Apparently this weekly flight was a huge success and according to the Greek press it was actually the only profitable long-haul route OA flew in a long time. I'm just wondering, if YUL was more successful, wouldn't the added flight have been to YUL and not YYZ? (I suppose they could not add a fifth typical YUL-YYZ flight because the whole rotation with the tag takes over 24 hours and the aircraft wasn't available for longer than that.) BTW this flight wasn't performed this summer because the A300s left and the A340s were heavily used to LHR.

Quoting FLYYUL (Reply 14):
As per Canada - Greece bilateral, Montreal and Toronto must be served mutually.

The rumour is them pulling of Canada all together given the tag flight (YYZ-YUL-ATH)

I had no idea about the bilateral. Could someone please explain? OA actually has to fly to both YUL and YYZ? I suppose they could fly to YYZ and YUL seperately though, say 2 weekly to both. How many weekly flights are allowed? Also, how many slots does OA own? (Isn't YYZ kind of restricted?)

Apparently AC has rights to ATH and there have been rumors that they might be considering YYZ-ATH. If OA axes the route, something tells me it might actually happen.


User currently offlineFlyyul From Italy, joined Jun 2000, 4980 posts, RR: 51
Reply 21, posted (5 years 10 months 3 weeks 4 days 13 hours ago) and read 1815 times:



Quoting OlympicATH (Reply 20):
FLYYUL could you please tell me if you have any official data to support this? I'm actually pretty interested in knowing how this route performs for OA. I think I saw some official figures at some point showing heavier numbers for YYZ. Besides, I fly ATH-YUL and YUL-ATH pretty often and it usually seems like most passengers fly from/to YYZ. Of course I could be wrong...

I don't know if you remember this, but during summer 2007, on top of the 4 weekly tag flights, OA added a fifth flight to YYZ only. Apparently this weekly flight was a huge success and according to the Greek press it was actually the only profitable long-haul route OA flew in a long time. I'm just wondering, if YUL was more successful, wouldn't the added flight have been to YUL and not YYZ? (I suppose they could not add a fifth typical YUL-YYZ flight because the whole rotation with the tag takes over 24 hours and the aircraft wasn't available for longer than that.) BTW this flight wasn't performed this summer because the A300s left and the A340s were heavily used to LHR

The route is unsuccesful because of the tag. Flying an A340 between Montreal and Toronto means an additional $25,000-$30,000 of one way cost per flight. As you may know, Toronto is the most expensive airport in the world to land at, with an A340 costing triple of any other airport in North America unfortunately.

OA picks up more pax in Montreal because it proposes a 1 stop from Montreal and a 2 stop in Athens for beyond passengers. OA is very succesful leveraging high yield VFR markets such as Beirut, Cairo, Amman, Tel Aviv from YUL vs. YYZ precisely for that reason.

The market size Montreal/Toronto-Athens is fairly equal given that there almost the same number of expats in each city.

If OA wants to save this route, it should dig its head out of the sand and limit the tag. Flying 2/7 YYZ-YUL-ATH and 2/7 YYZ-ATH n/s (or 2/7 YUL-ATH n/s), will save themselves a ton of avoidable cost.

The problem becomes that the market size from neither Montreal or Toronto is sufficiently large enough to justify profitability for Canada on a year-round basis, given the winter dies in terms of market demand.

So if we assumed that Olympic flew 540 flights to Canada (back and forth), and the tag cost them $30,000 of cost, that is $16.2M in additional cost just from the tag. Clearly the route profit is not $16M.

Hence the problem....


User currently offlineANITIX87 From United States of America, joined Mar 2005, 3305 posts, RR: 13
Reply 22, posted (5 years 10 months 3 weeks 4 days 13 hours ago) and read 1803 times:
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Quoting Ek773er (Reply 10):
Yeap that is correct. They will probably scrap YUL and perhaps fly to JNB seasonally but they are definitely keeping JFK and YYZ.

I've always been absolutely shocked that there is no ATH-ORD flight with the enormous Greek population there. I know it's mostly once-a-year traffic, but not even a seasonal flight???

What about flights to MEL or SYD since there is enormous Greek presence there?? Usen't there to be a ATH-SYD flight via some Asian city?? Why not re-instate in a few years when they're [hopefully] back on their feet?

TIS



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User currently offlineOa260 From Ireland, joined Nov 2006, 26977 posts, RR: 57
Reply 23, posted (5 years 10 months 3 weeks 4 days 12 hours ago) and read 1783 times:



Quoting ANITIX87 (Reply 22):
I've always been absolutely shocked that there is no ATH-ORD flight with the enormous Greek population there. I know it's mostly once-a-year traffic, but not even a seasonal flight???

It was started years ago and failed. ATH-ORD

Quoting ANITIX87 (Reply 22):
What about flights to MEL or SYD since there is enormous Greek presence there??

It failed also and always lost money. It will never return. If the QR deal goes through we may see a codeshare ATH-DOH-SYD but nothing on OA metal.


User currently offlineEk773er From Greece, joined Oct 2008, 49 posts, RR: 0
Reply 24, posted (5 years 10 months 3 weeks 4 days 11 hours ago) and read 1749 times:



Quoting Oa260 (Reply 23):
Quoting ANITIX87 (Reply 22):
What about flights to MEL or SYD since there is enormous Greek presence there??

It failed also and always lost money. It will never return. If the QR deal goes through we may see a codeshare ATH-DOH-SYD but nothing on OA metal.

Correct. And not because the load factors were poor. The main reason was the lack of equipment in order to run it efficiently. With only 4 A340s which had to fly to JFK, JNB, YUL, YYZ also, the route was served twice a week through SIN. I remember that the crews had to spend a hole week in SYD staying in luxury hotels etc... resulting in enormous costs. The leg was doomed before even started. You don't expect to have a profit if you gonna run the service like that no matter how big the load factors are.

IMHO there is a market (even seasonably) to destination where the Greek immigrants are. If you have the proper equipment and you use it wisely you can serve destinations like SYD, JNB, YYZ, JFK and why not ORD, SFO, even PHL. Even now the demand for JFK alone is so great that OA could have a daily flight and maybe one more on Saturdays. But not with 4 A340s ( the A343 can not complete the two legs (ATH-JFK-ATH) in 24 hours as the 742s have done in the past). If the deal with QR goes through I expect them to capitalize on these sectors....


25 6thfreedom : Agree. IF a closer relationship is formed with QR, I can see the following: QR operating to MEL and SYD, although the market is not growing, and it i
26 ME AVN FAN : - If QR takes over OA it will be WITHIN the E.U. and so have some quite new possibilities
27 Oa260 : Exactly. Thats what is making it an attractive proposition for QR apparantly. They are not doing it for charity. They will gain lots of benefits from
28 OA412 : Yup! I'm assuming the access to an open skies transatlantic market is a huge selling point for QR.
29 Viscount724 : If not mistaken, QR's ownership share of an EU-based airline could not exceed 49%.
30 Post contains links Oa260 : With regards the QR proposal I have set up a thread here :: http://www.airliners.net/aviation-fo...eneral_aviation/read.main/4194051/ I intend to upda
31 ME AVN FAN : - Yes, but if in conjunction with some banks, it would mean full control nevertheless. And the banks of course had to be Greek banks, but possibly Qa
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