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Air France To Tokyo HANEDA, Scheduled!  
User currently offlineConcordeBoy From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Posted (5 years 10 months 1 week 3 days 14 hours ago) and read 15374 times:

The buzz from the bees is that AF has succeeded in becoming the first intercontinental carrier to be granted nonstop scheduled service into HND since NRT took over primary gateway duties.

No official release yet, but should see something in short order. Interestingly enough, there's quite a lotta blog activity on it too.


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Interesting too... because I always figured that HND's int'l re-introduction would be strictly regional. Maybe it'll become the new LHR, in terms of exclusivity?  Wink

67 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineMHTripple7 From United States of America, joined Feb 2008, 1105 posts, RR: 8
Reply 1, posted (5 years 10 months 1 week 3 days 14 hours ago) and read 15368 times:

Very interesting. I bet this flight will do very well because HND is much more convenient than NRT and it has better domestic connections.

[Edited 2008-10-24 19:08:09]

User currently offlineShamrock604 From Ireland, joined Sep 2007, 4169 posts, RR: 13
Reply 2, posted (5 years 10 months 1 week 3 days 14 hours ago) and read 15333 times:

I'm shocked. But Pleasantly so.

AF will now, via it's codesharing relationship with JL, be able to offer a choice of both NRT and HND.



Flown EI,FR,RE,EIR,VE,SI,TLA,BA,BE,BD,VX,MON,AF,YS,WX,KL,SK,LH,OK,OS,LX,IB,LTU,HLX,4U,SU,CO,DL,UA,AC,PR,MH,SQ,QF, EY, EK
User currently onlineCubsrule From United States of America, joined May 2004, 22924 posts, RR: 20
Reply 3, posted (5 years 10 months 1 week 3 days 14 hours ago) and read 15320 times:



Quoting MHTripple7 (Reply 1):
I bet this flight will do very well because HND is much more convenient than NRT and it has better domestic connections.

You'd think so. OTOH, though, didn't DL drop JFK-ORY before they began it? It's not a perfect analog, but it's the closest recent example I can come up with.



I can't decide whether I miss the tulip or the bowling shoe more
User currently offlineVC10DC10 From United States of America, joined Apr 2006, 1036 posts, RR: 3
Reply 4, posted (5 years 10 months 1 week 3 days 14 hours ago) and read 15305 times:

Well, that's a blast from the past (wasn't HND the main intercontinental gateway in the 1960s?). I expect that AF will be able to charge a premium for this service. Would there be any technical difficulties (e.g., runways, aprons, etc.) that would slow this down?

User currently offlineHeeseokKoo From South Korea, joined Jan 2005, 639 posts, RR: 1
Reply 5, posted (5 years 10 months 1 week 3 days 14 hours ago) and read 15265 times:

Wonder how AF will fit into HND night slot, which is 10PM to 7AM. Well, I guess it will be like,

CDG 10am - HND 5am // HND 6:30am - CDG 11am

but HND departure is too early for an international flight, unless park one aircraft whole day at HND. If Japan side also should use night slot to be fair (I'm not sure this part), it will be much easier for them.

HND 11pm - CDG 4am // CDG 11am - HND 6am

Same issue for other nations' airliners who also permitted to use night slot only. Singapore, Malaysia, and Korea agreed on HND night slot, or more. SQ or MH will be able to use it wisely as

KUL or SIN 4pm - HND 10:30pm // HND 11:30pm - KUL or SIN 5am

but not for Korean airliners. Still there's no doubt that HND slot is super valuable even it is a night slot.


User currently offlineFXramper From United States of America, joined Dec 2005, 7263 posts, RR: 85
Reply 6, posted (5 years 10 months 1 week 3 days 14 hours ago) and read 15245 times:
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Would AF use CDG or ORY?

Great news.  bigthumbsup 


User currently offlinePellegrine From United States of America, joined Mar 2007, 2437 posts, RR: 8
Reply 7, posted (5 years 10 months 1 week 3 days 11 hours ago) and read 14868 times:

I saw this and I almost fainted. HND is SO SO SO SO much more convenient for people going to say Marunouchi, Nihonbashi, Ginza, Shinagawa, Yokohama, etc. I say bring on a JFK flight!

Quoting ConcordeBoy (Thread starter):
Maybe it'll become the new LHR, in terms of exclusivity?

This is a natural fit for HND, but probably more like LCY than LHR. They won't allow that many flights, and Narita will never play 2nd fiddle.

Quoting MHTripple7 (Reply 1):
I bet this flight will do very well because HND is much more convenient than NRT and it has better domestic connections.

Yes the connex rock! NRT is **** for domestic connections.



oh boy!!!
User currently offlineAp305 From India, joined Jan 2000, 555 posts, RR: 0
Reply 8, posted (5 years 10 months 1 week 3 days 10 hours ago) and read 14669 times:

Given filed performance considerations I guess equipment will be 330?

User currently offlineCarpethead From Japan, joined Aug 2004, 2954 posts, RR: 3
Reply 9, posted (5 years 10 months 1 week 3 days 9 hours ago) and read 14619 times:

Nevertheless, it's still two years before this can happen.

I'd think many airlines will park their aircraft most of the day at HND due to the restrictions on operating times. It's not like HND has ramp space problems because the ramps are usually occupied by domestic aircraft at night while they are empty during the day.


User currently offlineKaitak From Ireland, joined Aug 1999, 12436 posts, RR: 37
Reply 10, posted (5 years 10 months 1 week 3 days 9 hours ago) and read 14606 times:



Quoting HeeseokKoo (Reply 5):
Wonder how AF will fit into HND night slot, which is 10PM to 7AM. Well, I guess it will be like,

CDG 10am - HND 5am // HND 6:30am - CDG 11am

but HND departure is too early for an international flight, unless park one aircraft whole day at HND. If Japan side also should use night slot to be fair (I'm not sure this part), it will be much easier for them.

HND 11pm - CDG 4am // CDG 11am - HND 6am

Same issue for other nations' airliners who also permitted to use night slot only. Singapore, Malaysia, and Korea agreed on HND night slot, or more. SQ or MH will be able to use it wisely as

KUL or SIN 4pm - HND 10:30pm // HND 11:30pm - KUL or SIN 5am

but not for Korean airliners. Still there's no doubt that HND slot is super valuable even it is a night slot.

I was thinking about the scheduling and it appears to me that Japanese carriers have an advantage*, in that in order to get the optimum times, AF will probably want to have an aircraft on the ground all day at HND,so that it arrives at (say) 5-6am and leaves at 11pm at night. However, don't forget that AF is only the first European carrier and no doubt we will see more agreements of this sort and with time, HND will become so congested that these late hours that the authorities will be forced to extend and ultimately abolish the curfew.

As I see it, an arrival into HND at c.11pm would demand a departure from CDG at about 2am, so that's not going to be popular; an overnight from HND to CDG should be popular; AF currently operates a 77W from NRT to CDG, leaving at 22.00 or so; a departure from HND at midnight would result in an arrival time at about 6.30.

Here's one possible option: how about one of the A319LR aircraft, configured in an all-J Class layout.

(*This is because Japanese carriers can use their aircraft, even if configured for international flights, on domestic routes).


User currently offlineHNL-Jack From United States of America, joined Mar 2001, 819 posts, RR: 0
Reply 11, posted (5 years 10 months 1 week 3 days 9 hours ago) and read 14534 times:

If true, that's great news. It's been rumored for quite some time that HND would be opened up to limited international service. I suspect the next carrier may be HA who would like to serve there and could do well as most traffic between HNL and Tokyo is O&D . The convenience of HND would be very appealing.


Grew up in the business and continued the family tradition.
User currently offlineFlySSC From United States of America, joined Aug 2003, 7411 posts, RR: 57
Reply 12, posted (5 years 10 months 1 week 3 days 9 hours ago) and read 14495 times:



Quoting Kaitak (Reply 10):
Here's one possible option: how about one of the A319LR aircraft, configured in an all-J Class layout.

Air France doesn't operate any A319LR configured in an all-J Class.

Air France currently operates 3 x Daily CDG-NRT-CDG.

During the winter season, AF will operate 5 x Weekly A332 (A272/279) + 1 x Daily B77W (A276/275) + 1 x Daily B77W (AF278/277).

Add to this a codeshare on the DAILY B773 operated by JAL on NRT-CDG-NRT (AF280/271).

This AF flight to HND is planned to be started after AF will introduce the A380 on the CDG-NRT route. The frequencies would be then reduced to 2 x Daily and the Third frequency will be moved to HND.

Note also that frequencies on CDG-KIX-CDG should be doubled from 1 x Daily to 2 x Daily.


User currently offlineBA From United States of America, joined May 2000, 11153 posts, RR: 59
Reply 13, posted (5 years 10 months 1 week 3 days 8 hours ago) and read 14417 times:



Quoting FlySSC (Reply 12):

Impressive! Quite a strong presence for AF in Japan.



"Generosity is giving more than you can, and pride is taking less than you need." - Khalil Gibran
User currently offlineCentrair From Japan, joined Jan 2005, 3598 posts, RR: 20
Reply 14, posted (5 years 10 months 1 week 3 days 7 hours ago) and read 14057 times:

I thought the authority that runs HND had a restriction on international flights that went as far west as Hong Kong and east to some Japanese islands.

Would be interesting if other carriers try to get into HND. If the Japanese government would just open it up to the world, it would be a far more popular airport than NRT. NRT would end up be like LGW.

On the other hand it would hurt KIX and NGO even more.



Yes...I am not a KIX fan. Let's Japanese Aviation!
User currently offlineAmirs From Israel, joined Dec 2003, 1333 posts, RR: 4
Reply 15, posted (5 years 10 months 1 week 3 days 5 hours ago) and read 13466 times:

i know EL AL was trying to get slots at HND because its apparently imposible to get slots at NRT.

User currently offlineKaitak From Ireland, joined Aug 1999, 12436 posts, RR: 37
Reply 16, posted (5 years 10 months 1 week 3 days 5 hours ago) and read 13446 times:



Quoting FlySSC (Reply 12):
Air France doesn't operate any A319LR configured in an all-J Class.

It may not now, but it has the A319LR - and two years to do it, if it chooses to. Given that HND will probably be a predominantly J class route (and no doubt international landing charges at HND will be quite high), it is feasible.

Quoting Centrair (Reply 14):
I thought the authority that runs HND had a restriction on international flights that went as far west as Hong Kong and east to some Japanese islands.

I thought that was a Japanese govt (MoT) rule. Not anymore, it would appear. Japan would not have signed this agreement if the ruling were still in place.

I recall that the regional govt of Yokohama refused to provide funding for the expansion of HND if international operations were severely restricted; I wonder if this is still in place.


User currently offlineAaron747 From Japan, joined Aug 2003, 8135 posts, RR: 26
Reply 17, posted (5 years 10 months 1 week 3 days 5 hours ago) and read 13321 times:



Quoting Ap305 (Reply 8):
Given filed performance considerations I guess equipment will be 330?

It would have to be. HND's longest runways are each 3,000m, so especially given typical summer conditions in Tokyo (70% humidity, 28-32C), that negates 744, 77W and A343 equipment without substantial penalties.



If you need someone to blame / throw a rock in the air / you'll hit someone guilty
User currently offlineSkyhigh From Australia, joined Nov 2005, 235 posts, RR: 6
Reply 18, posted (5 years 10 months 1 week 3 days 4 hours ago) and read 13195 times:

Considering that JL is in oneworld, where is BA or AY in all of this. It seems that JL is closer to AF and joined the wrong alliance by mistake!

User currently offlineFlySSC From United States of America, joined Aug 2003, 7411 posts, RR: 57
Reply 19, posted (5 years 10 months 1 week 3 days 4 hours ago) and read 13050 times:



Quoting Skyhigh (Reply 18):
It seems that JL is closer to AF and joined the wrong alliance by mistake!

JL & AF have together a long history of cooperation begun back in the 50s when it wasn't so common.

Today, they codeshare on CDG-NRT-CDG, CDG-KIX-CDG, but also on CDG-NGO-CDG operated by a JL aircraft on behalf of AF/JL.


User currently offlineMisbeehavin From United States of America, joined Mar 2005, 914 posts, RR: 3
Reply 20, posted (5 years 10 months 1 week 3 days 4 hours ago) and read 12904 times:



Quoting BA (Reply 13):
Impressive! Quite a strong presence for AF in Japan.

It definitely is! Add to that the codeshare on JL's daily 777 NGO-CDG flight. Throw in the NH flight and you have a pretty damn good Japan-Paris lineup.

Speaking of, your namesake (BA) seems to be happy in its North America-India bubble!


User currently offlineBOAC911 From United States of America, joined Sep 2004, 452 posts, RR: 0
Reply 21, posted (5 years 10 months 1 week 3 days 3 hours ago) and read 12691 times:



Quoting Skyhigh (Reply 18):
Considering that JL is in oneworld, where is BA or AY in all of this. It seems that JL is closer to AF and joined the wrong alliance by mistake!

Joining a particular airline alliance does not necessarily prohibit or preclude the pursuit of agreements with other airlines. Nothing is etched in stone.


User currently offlineB742 From United Kingdom, joined Mar 2005, 3767 posts, RR: 19
Reply 22, posted (5 years 10 months 1 week 3 days ago) and read 11721 times:

Just to note, some restrictions:


  • Air France will only be given rights for flights starting after October 2010.
  • A Japanese carrier also will be given rights; most likely JAL or ANA.
  • Air France is now permitted to operate the A380 to NRT.
  • From 2011 Air France will go two times daily on KIX.
  • No codeshare limitations.


Rob!  wave 


User currently offlineMIgAiR54 From Spain, joined Jun 2007, 1701 posts, RR: 0
Reply 23, posted (5 years 10 months 1 week 3 days ago) and read 11692 times:



Quoting Misbeehavin (Reply 20):
Speaking of, your namesake (BA) seems to be happy in its North America-India bubble!

AF has great links, they serve the same BA does except (Dallas, Phoenix, Denver, Baltimore, Vancouver and Calgary) and they serve Detroit.

And in India only Dhaka and Kolkata are served by BA and not by AF.

All of this excluding KLM.

EK has a great network and is expanding in North america and India very fast. (NYC, LAX, HOU, SFO and Toronto). And some more airlines in the gulf area and the indian airlines.

I think AF has the best network, I remenber once I saw here a world map and AF is the airline who serve more countries.


User currently offlineBurnsie28 From United States of America, joined Aug 2004, 7539 posts, RR: 8
Reply 24, posted (5 years 10 months 1 week 3 days ago) and read 11638 times:

Well if this is true, I'm waiting for NW to say they want back in since they used to be in HND before having to move to NRT.


"Some People Just Know How To Fly"- Best slogan ever, RIP NW 1926-2009
25 FlySSC : That's the case of ALL the airlines who were serving Tokyo before NRT opened in May 1978 ...
26 Flyboy_se : Dhaka is in Bangladesh, not India
27 MAH4546 : Dhaka is not in India. Air France serves BOM, DEL, BLR and MAA. British Airways serves BOM, DEL, MAA, BLR, MAA, CCU, and, starting in December, HYD.
28 YULWinterSkies : Definitely not the perfect example indeed. CDG-Paris is decent as a commute, ORY-Paris is somewhat shorter, but not direct by train. ORY is only bett
29 CityofAthens : From a romantic perspective, I agree. Although I personally love America, I do find BA's obsession with the US and India rather frustrating, and wish
30 Cubsrule : I don't think the connection situation is so much different. Isn't NRT as good or better for anywhere outside of Japan?
31 Ap305 : At the edge of its capabilities? Not for the cf6-80e1a3 powered 330s that AF has . The 777-200er would carry more payload on the route than the 332 b
32 Jfk777 : 772ER should be able to make CDG, LHR and FRA from Haneda from a 3000 meter runway. With a high premuim configuration a lighter load should be no pro
33 JRadier : not if you want to connect to domestic Japan destinations, whose connections from NRT suck (for the lack of a better word)
34 Burnsie28 : I'm well aware of that, but NW had such a large presense and still does.
35 Cubsrule : That's why I asked what I did: just as CDG is better for connections to anywhere outside of France, isn't NRT better for connections to anywhere outs
36 JRadier : And where would you want to connect to from Japan? It's not exactly a convenient location coming from the west.....
37 Cubsrule : No it isn't; this isn't specifically about AF, it's more of a general question about more carriers seeking to move to HND.
38 Pellegrine : Yes NRT has more international connections, but this will be less important as more and more Asian destinations get their own nonstops. Carriers woul
39 OzGlobal : Great news! I enjoy the commute to and from NRT like an enema. AF seem to have some sort of inside connections in Japan. Just a few months before JL j
40 FlyDreamliner : A332 and 77E both could not take off at MTOW on the hottest summer days, both would incur some degree of penalties in terms of cargo. 77E could carry
41 Andaman : Right, and actually AY codeshares with both JL and AF.
42 WorldTraveler : remember that NW is the largest foreign carrier at NRT and once it merges with DL will have even stronger ties to AF. DL will grow its presence in Ja
43 Ktachiya : This news was on the Japanese newspaper tonight as well. It said that JL would be the Japanese carrier serving Europe from HND. Can anybody confirm th
44 UpperDeck79 : Not so much from Europe, where the AF flight is coming from. From the U.S., yes,
45 Viscount724 : I don't think the A319LR has the range to reliably operate a 5254 nm nonstop sector. Why do you say that? QF operates the 332 SYD-BOM and has used it
46 Centrair : I remember a thread where this was discussed. But I think I remember that it was also stated in that thread that the flight had penalties in both dir
47 Misbeehavin : AF continue to deploy the 332 on one of the Narita flights.
48 6thfreedom : What about something along the lines of: CDG 0130 HND 2205+1 HND 2355 CDG 0530+1
49 Centrair : That would work for efficient aircraft use. It would also work well for Europe-CDG-HND connections and Japan-HND-CDG-Europe. But it doesn't work so w
50 Centrair : Tried to edit the above but it wouldn't let me so I will just write here. The greatest advantage for having increased international flights out of HND
51 6thfreedom : what is the make up of the Japan-France O&D market by nationality. More Japanese going to France, or the other way around? any info available?
52 FlySSC : They don't. And in any case, AF doesn't operate any A319LR in an all J class config. Moreover, they are not designed for this kind of market. AF272/A
53 CX288 : While such a non-stop operation arguably has advantages, I could also envision a one-stop service with the following schedule, offering excellent con
54 WorldTraveler : market presence, not connections. NW has an aggressive marketing operation in Japan and I'm sure other Skyteam airlines do as well. Combined, it pres
55 6thfreedom : Aren't flights restricted to 22.00-07.00?? or is the regulation that one sector needs to arrive or depart during that period?
56 Jfk777 : What a terible CDG to HND schedule, Leave CDG seven hours earlier, CDG 1830- HND1505+1.
57 MAH4546 : France might be the first country, but looks like Japan is moving ahead with both Singapore and the United States to open access to Haneda for interna
58 ConcordeBoy : I said it first
59 A380forana : No, I don't think so. They have apparently enough room for a 4th runway as they are planning it.
60 Centrair : Yes but they have to change the international arrival/departure rule to allow day-time arrivals and departures. It would become an LHR between 22:00
61 6thfreedom : I think you're missing the parametres. according to earlier postings, arrivals/departures are only permitted 2200-0700, hence the 0130 departure ex-C
62 FlySSC : This is what is surprising me ... Is this information accurate? Usually, the 22:00/07:00 part is a curfew when NO FLIGHTS are allowed (like in NRT, m
63 HeeseokKoo : Yes. According to wikipedia, longhauls are permitted only between 2200-0700 because NRT is closed at this time. Also news articles say one French air
64 6thfreedom : if the above is true, how is the schedule below possible?
65 Carpethead : Your timings are little off. CDG departure would be 0400 during the winter and 0300 summer. Thus most European carriers would have to arrive in the m
66 Post contains links Viscount724 : According to Boeing's data on airports with noise abatement restrictions, the NRT curfew is 1400-2100 UTC (GMT) which is 2300-0600 local time, not 22
67 Goldorak : I have doubts that AF will have its new flight departing HND around 10 or 11 pm, because this will be in direct competition with their flight at NRT d
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