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Manitoba Taking Air Canada To Court Over Job Cuts  
User currently offlineCB97 From Canada, joined Mar 2008, 90 posts, RR: 0
Posted (5 years 9 months 3 days 8 hours ago) and read 4085 times:

I was reading CBC and came across this article, apparently the province of Manitoba is taking Air Canada to court over the closure of the flight attendant base. They are claiming that it violates the 1988 Air Canada Public Participation Act, which was created when the airline was privatized that year.

Full story here:

http://www.cbc.ca/canada/manitoba/st...008/10/30/air-canada-winnipeg.html

18 replies: All unread, jump to last
 
User currently offlineThreepoint From Canada, joined Oct 2005, 2129 posts, RR: 9
Reply 1, posted (5 years 9 months 3 days 8 hours ago) and read 4071 times:

If AC is deemed to be violating the Act, then they are obliged to adhere to it in full, with punitive actions taken if they fail.
However, I'm sure that there are many on this board who agree with my feeling that the Act is an unfair and uncompetitive burden placed upon a now-publicly traded business.



The nice thing about a mistake is the pleasure it gives others.
User currently offlineRP TPA From United States of America, joined Oct 1999, 852 posts, RR: 0
Reply 2, posted (5 years 9 months 3 days 8 hours ago) and read 4033 times:

With any luck, this (the Air Canada act) was be appealed to the Canadian Supreme Court, which it will (hopefully) be declared unconstitutional.

User currently offlineZBBYLW From Canada, joined Nov 2006, 1983 posts, RR: 6
Reply 3, posted (5 years 9 months 2 days 22 hours ago) and read 3860 times:



Quoting Threepoint (Reply 1):
However, I'm sure that there are many on this board who agree with my feeling that the Act is an unfair and uncompetitive burden placed upon a now-publicly traded business.

It is this is pure BS. WS does not have to adhere to a WS public participation act or anything. But AC does, is it fair. NOT AT ALL. I really hope the act gets thrown out the door. Nova Scoatia never sued AC when YHZ got closed down, YWG f/as while it is disapointing you have to commute, are just going to have to suck it up. That is what it is like to be an employee for a major airline. When/If I hopefully become a pilot with AC, I know I am going to have to move to YYZ, and if I get say based in YUL, YYC or YVR I know that I could be close to be moving to YYZ it is all part of the job.



Keep the shinny side up!
User currently offlineDaBuzzard From Canada, joined Sep 2007, 136 posts, RR: 0
Reply 4, posted (5 years 9 months 2 days 14 hours ago) and read 3783 times:



Quoting Threepoint (Reply 1):
However, I'm sure that there are many on this board who agree with my feeling that the Act is an unfair and uncompetitive burden placed upon a now-publicly traded business.

 thumbsup 

Don't get me wrong, I am not AC's biggest fan (too many old timers with an entitlement mentality) but if AC is to be competitive and profitable (without handouts), the playing field must be level. If a route is not profitable it should not be flown. If a base costs more than it is worth it should be closed. If staff levels are too high, there should be layoffs.

I understand the rationel of "forcing" service to some outlying communities even though there is no hope of profit but there must be a better way. Even (shudder) subsidies where service is needed but let the airlines decide if it is worth it and compete for the routes.

Allow AC to operate as a business, under the same rules and requirments as any other airline.


User currently offlineCayMan From Canada, joined Aug 2003, 905 posts, RR: 9
Reply 5, posted (5 years 9 months 2 days 13 hours ago) and read 3738 times:

This is purely political and always will be.

In 1988 upon privitization there was a very good likelihood that AC would have moved its corporate head office to YYZ. That would have been a political disaster in Quebec, Mulroney was in power at time and would never have done anything to undermine his base in Quebec. That's a legitimate political decision.

No susbequent government will ever touch this for same reason. Harper has tried and continues to try to make inroads in Quebec so his government would never touch this.

Mind you, AC would probably have no commercial need or desire to re-locate the corproate offices now anyway. They do well in YUL, while maintianing primary operations hub at YYZ. If it aint broke don't fix it.


User currently offlineRobsawatsky From Canada, joined Dec 2003, 597 posts, RR: 0
Reply 6, posted (5 years 9 months 2 days 12 hours ago) and read 3694 times:



Quoting CayMan (Reply 5):
Mind you, AC would probably have no commercial need or desire to re-locate the corproate offices now anyway. They do well in YUL, while maintianing primary operations hub at YYZ. If it aint broke don't fix it.

Most of the real HQ functions are in Toronto now anyway. The Montreal HQ is mostly for legal and PR purposes.


User currently offlineSLCUT2777 From United States of America, joined Dec 2005, 4028 posts, RR: 11
Reply 7, posted (5 years 9 months 2 days 1 hour ago) and read 3549 times:

Manitoba has continually elected NDP governments, and the NDP as the "Socialist Party of Canada" is committed to forcing AC back to becoming a federal crown corporation once again. The Manitoba provincial NDP will think no differently since the Regina Manifesto calls for government ownership of all major forms of transportation. Since they can't legislate AC back to being a federal crown corporation, they will attempt to litigate it. U.S. Congressional House Representative James Oberstar (D-Minnesota) thinks along the same lines. He might oppose the DL+NW merger but he would welcome a U.S. flag national airline owned by the U.S. Government similar to Amtrak, all in the name of propping up unionized labor.
Perhaps a few Manitoba MLA's haven't visited Cuba enough!   

[Edited 2008-10-31 21:36:51]


DELTA Air Lines; The Only Way To Fly from Salt Lake City; Let the Western Heritage always be with Delta!
User currently offlineQ120 From Canada, joined Aug 2008, 278 posts, RR: 0
Reply 8, posted (5 years 9 months 1 day 18 hours ago) and read 3494 times:

I’ve always wondered why they had their HQ in Montreal, it’s actually about what? 30 min. from the airport. As long as I can remember, I had a meeting at the head office with the big man back in 2007, great experience... was an expensive taxi ride .. But the flights were free  Smile
Upon my arrival back in YYZ I had a personal tour of the new STOC center which opened the very next day.

ahhhh... good times wish I could relive that day!



However beautiful the strategy, you should occasionally look at the results
User currently offlineViscount724 From Switzerland, joined Oct 2006, 24891 posts, RR: 22
Reply 9, posted (5 years 9 months 1 day 7 hours ago) and read 3382 times:



Quoting Q120 (Reply 8):
I’ve always wondered why they had their HQ in Montreal, it’s actually about what? 30 min. from the airport.

Isn't AC's YUL headquarters building still at the airport, near the eastern end between the two runways and near their maintenance base? However by road it's a rather roundabout route from the terminal as you have to drive around the airport property. I don't think it would take 30 minutes except possibly in very slow rush hour traffic.


User currently offlineQ120 From Canada, joined Aug 2008, 278 posts, RR: 0
Reply 10, posted (5 years 9 months 1 day 1 hour ago) and read 3292 times:

the head office is no where near the airport, like I said it took me quite the taxi ride to get there.


However beautiful the strategy, you should occasionally look at the results
User currently offlineQ120 From Canada, joined Aug 2008, 278 posts, RR: 0
Reply 11, posted (5 years 9 months 1 day 1 hour ago) and read 3284 times:

Driving directions to 5100 Boulevard De Maisonneuve Ouest, Montréal, QC
15.8 km – about 16 mins

alright 16 min. without traffic .. that confirms it !

that's where I had my meeting... that was a real long day for me.. left my house around 4am to make it for that meeting and it was valentines day prior .. I was tired

[Edited 2008-11-01 21:48:25]


However beautiful the strategy, you should occasionally look at the results
User currently offlineYyz717 From Canada, joined Sep 2001, 16245 posts, RR: 56
Reply 12, posted (5 years 9 months 1 day ago) and read 3244 times:



Quoting Threepoint (Reply 1):
If AC is deemed to be violating the Act, then they are obliged to adhere to it in full, with punitive actions taken if they fail.

True, but AC also has a for-profit mandate. So when the Act contradicts or harms a profit motive, then AC is in a no-win situation. On another note, this suit also sends a bad message to would-be companies thinking of investing in MB (assuming there are some) that the provincial government is not business-friendly.

Quoting Threepoint (Reply 1):
However, I'm sure that there are many on this board who agree with my feeling that the Act is an unfair and uncompetitive burden placed upon a now-publicly traded business.

Yes, and no. Yes it is unfair, but keep in mind that AC was able to retain some very lucrative route authorities handed to it decades ago when it was a crown corporation. AC continues to benefit from this age-old government largesse. If you really want AC to have a level playing field, then auction off its international routes authorities (maybe WS or TS would win some) in addition to eliminating the Act.

Quoting ZBBYLW (Reply 3):
I really hope the act gets thrown out the door.

So do I. Then AC can (opt to) move its HQ to YYZ or YYC and access a larger and better pool of management talent.

Quoting CayMan (Reply 5):
They do well in YUL, while maintianing primary operations hub at YYZ. If it aint broke don't fix it.

It is broken. Any political decision to dictate the location of an HQ can only lead to substandard management. AC's anemic profit history attests to this.



Panam, TWA, Ansett, Eastern.......AC next? Might be good for Canada.
User currently offlineGte439u From Canada, joined Nov 2003, 361 posts, RR: 1
Reply 13, posted (5 years 9 months 1 day ago) and read 3235 times:



Quoting RP TPA (Reply 2):
With any luck, this (the Air Canada act) was be appealed to the Canadian Supreme Court, which it will (hopefully) be declared unconstitutional.

On what grounds would the the Supreme Court of Canada find the Act unconstitutional?


User currently offlineJamincan From Canada, joined Aug 2006, 775 posts, RR: 0
Reply 14, posted (5 years 9 months 15 hours ago) and read 3163 times:

I think this would be a tough case, the Air Canada Public Participation Act states that:

Quote:
6. (1) The articles of continuance of the Corporation shall contain

(d) provisions requiring the Corporation to maintain operational and overhaul centres in the City of Winnipeg, the Montreal Urban Community and the City of Mississauga;

I think it would be hard to argue that removing a flight attendant base would eliminate Winnipeg as an overhaul centre, and I think it would also be difficult, though more plausible, to argue that it is no longer an operational centre. Unfortunately, the act doesn't provide a specific definition to the meaning of "operational centre", so that would probably be where the argument would lie. I think as long as Air Canada can show that they maintain significant operations and maintenance in Winnipeg (which they do), they should be fine.


User currently offlineSLCUT2777 From United States of America, joined Dec 2005, 4028 posts, RR: 11
Reply 15, posted (5 years 9 months 11 hours ago) and read 3106 times:



Quoting Yyz717 (Reply 12):
If you really want AC to have a level playing field, then auction off its international routes authorities (maybe WS or TS would win some) in addition to eliminating the Act.

With the WS/WN partnership coming on line next year, I think you'll see the playing field leveled on trans-border routes particularly. Also factor in the other 330lb gorilla hitting that scene in the form of the DL/NW merger.

Quoting Yyz717 (Reply 12):
I really hope the act gets thrown out the door.

So do I. Then AC can (opt to) move its HQ to YYZ or YYC and access a larger and better pool of management talent.

Either Toronto or Calgary makes MUCH more business sense for AC headquarters than does Montreal.

Quoting Yyz717 (Reply 12):
It is broken. Any political decision to dictate the location of an HQ can only lead to substandard management. AC's anemic profit history attests to this.

But that isn't going to happen unless Quebec succeeds from the dominion. Quebec as it stands is a government $$$ sucking black-hole for Canada, that rivals Capitol Hill and the White House in Washington, DC!

Quoting Yyz717 (Reply 12):
On another note, this suit also sends a bad message to would-be companies thinking of investing in MB (assuming there are some) that the provincial government is not business-friendly.

Any province with an NDP controlled legislative assembly is NEVER business friendly, and hopefully the voters in B.C. will realize that next May. "Whats that sucking sound I'm hearing?" "AC and WS pulling flights, operations and crews from B.C. since they put the NDP back into a majority in YYJ!"  irked 



DELTA Air Lines; The Only Way To Fly from Salt Lake City; Let the Western Heritage always be with Delta!
User currently offlineViscount724 From Switzerland, joined Oct 2006, 24891 posts, RR: 22
Reply 16, posted (5 years 9 months 6 hours ago) and read 3049 times:



Quoting SLCUT2777 (Reply 15):
Either Toronto or Calgary makes MUCH more business sense for AC headquarters than does Montreal.

In today's world of instant worldwide communications it really doesn't make any difference where an airline's head office is located. Lufthansa's head office is CGN which is hardly a major LH hub. LX's head office is BSL where they operate only a handful of flights.


User currently offlineRobsawatsky From Canada, joined Dec 2003, 597 posts, RR: 0
Reply 17, posted (5 years 8 months 4 weeks 1 day 23 hours ago) and read 2980 times:



Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 16):
In today's world of instant worldwide communications it really doesn't make any difference where an airline's head office is located.

It isn't about communications - it is about relationships - schmoozing with all the other big-boys in person. You want the head-office to be where the other players important to your business have their head-offices.

At least in North America, that seems to be the way.


User currently offlineSLCUT2777 From United States of America, joined Dec 2005, 4028 posts, RR: 11
Reply 18, posted (5 years 8 months 4 weeks 1 day 15 hours ago) and read 2899 times:



Quoting Robsawatsky (Reply 17):
It isn't about communications - it is about relationships - schmoozing with all the other big-boys in person. You want the head-office to be where the other players important to your business have their head-offices.

At least in North America, that seems to be the way.

Hence the reason the top offices for DL will remain in ATL rather than MSP or DTW for the combination of DL+NW.



DELTA Air Lines; The Only Way To Fly from Salt Lake City; Let the Western Heritage always be with Delta!
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