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Alitalia Investors Walk Out Of Meeting With Unions  
User currently offlinePanAm747 From United States of America, joined Feb 2004, 4242 posts, RR: 8
Posted (5 years 10 months 4 weeks 1 day 1 hour ago) and read 10138 times:

The drama continues:

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20081030/ap_on_bi_ge/eu_italy_alitalia

The Italian investors walked out of a meeting in a dispute over contracts. According to the article, the unions demanded time to study the proposal from CAI (Compagnia Aerea Italiana).

The leader of CAI is the president of Piaggi Scooters, and he urged the unions not to forget about the world economic downturn.

The drama continues.


Pan Am:The World's Most Experienced Airline - P(oor) S(ailor's) A(irline): San Diego's Hometown Airline-Catch Our Smile!
45 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineOOer From United States of America, joined Oct 2005, 1467 posts, RR: 2
Reply 1, posted (5 years 10 months 4 weeks 1 day 1 hour ago) and read 10084 times:

Take the dog out back and shoot it. She has been bleeding for years, time to put her down!!!

User currently offlineBP1 From United States of America, joined Aug 2007, 593 posts, RR: 1
Reply 2, posted (5 years 10 months 4 weeks 1 day 1 hour ago) and read 9999 times:

Tick tock tick tock

Cheers,
BP1



"First To Fly The A-380" / 26 October 2007 SYD-SIN Inaugural
User currently offlineBW424 From Trinidad and Tobago, joined Sep 2008, 1432 posts, RR: 1
Reply 3, posted (5 years 10 months 4 weeks 1 day 1 hour ago) and read 9988 times:



Quoting PanAm747 (Thread starter):
The leader of CAI is the president of Piaggi Scooters, and he urged the unions not to forget about the world economic downturn.

Most unions are always asking for more than what they deserve or more than what is available!Why can't they just swallow their pride,take whatever pay cuts,get the airline profitable and then start talking about sustainable collective agreements!!



It is what we think we know already that prevents us from learning.......
User currently offlinePanAm747 From United States of America, joined Feb 2004, 4242 posts, RR: 8
Reply 4, posted (5 years 10 months 4 weeks 1 day 1 hour ago) and read 9912 times:



Quote:
Most unions are always asking for more than what they deserve or more than what is available!Why can't they just swallow their pride,take whatever pay cuts,get the airline profitable and then start talking about sustainable collective agreements!!

I disagree with the part about "most" unions, but in the case of Alitalia's unions, they have been backed up year after unprofitable year by a government that bails them out, under the threat that, should the government ever decide NOT to help them, they will vote them out and elect someone who WILL keep bailing them out.

When one feels "entitled" to a government job, regardless of the drain on the financial couffers of a country, one will do anything to protect it. EU rules are specific - Italy's relentless propping up of this unprofitable government-subsidized financial black hole must stop. But, like a horror movie villain that refuses to die, the cycle continues.



Pan Am:The World's Most Experienced Airline - P(oor) S(ailor's) A(irline): San Diego's Hometown Airline-Catch Our Smile!
User currently offlineBW424 From Trinidad and Tobago, joined Sep 2008, 1432 posts, RR: 1
Reply 5, posted (5 years 10 months 4 weeks 23 hours ago) and read 9690 times:



Quoting PanAm747 (Reply 4):
I disagree with the part about "most" unions, but in the case of Alitalia's unions, they have been backed up year after unprofitable year by a government that bails them out, under the threat that, should the government ever decide NOT to help them, they will vote them out and elect someone who WILL keep bailing them out.

"Most" was a bad choice of word to use.I should have said "alot".

Quoting PanAm747 (Reply 4):
When one feels "entitled" to a government job, regardless of the drain on the financial couffers of a country, one will do anything to protect it. EU rules are specific - Italy's relentless propping up of this unprofitable government-subsidized financial black hole must stop. But, like a horror movie villain that refuses to die, the cycle continues.

 checkmark 



It is what we think we know already that prevents us from learning.......
User currently offlineAvek00 From United States of America, joined Oct 2004, 4387 posts, RR: 19
Reply 6, posted (5 years 10 months 4 weeks 20 hours ago) and read 9443 times:



Quoting PanAm747 (Reply 4):
But, like a horror movie villain that refuses to die, the cycle continues.

The EU rules apply to the weakling member states, not the politico-economic titan of Europe. Britain, France, Germany, and Italy will always be exceptions to whatever rules EU superstate bureaucrats cook up....  Wink



Live life to the fullest.
User currently offlineDualQual From United States of America, joined Mar 2006, 769 posts, RR: 1
Reply 7, posted (5 years 10 months 4 weeks 20 hours ago) and read 9368 times:

Quoting BW424 (Reply 3):
Most unions are always asking for more than what they deserve or more than what is available!Why can't they just swallow their pride,take whatever pay cuts,get the airline profitable and then start talking about sustainable collective agreements!!

Because once you give away management doesn't like to give back. Certainly in a perfect world one can easily argue that the employee groups should look at concessions as a means of helping sustain the company through tough times. The problem comes when during the good times, generally management makes it a battle to give back to the employee groups that sacrificed. Look at UA and AA. Employee concessions to save the company and management rewards themselves with bonuses. At some point when the company becomes unsustainable all the concessions in the world mean nothing. The company is toast.

[Edited 2008-10-30 20:11:05]

User currently offlineMMEPHX From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 8, posted (5 years 10 months 4 weeks 19 hours ago) and read 9283 times:

How on earth is AZ still alive?? They were supposed to be out of cash weeks ago, I don't recall anyone actually buying them but plenty of talk of potential investors, CAI, LH, AF-KLM etc.

User currently offlineIL96M From United Kingdom, joined Jun 2005, 137 posts, RR: 0
Reply 9, posted (5 years 10 months 4 weeks 19 hours ago) and read 9268 times:

Disgraceful. Utopian, really. In any other country AZ would e long defunct...

DIE! DIE DIE!!!!!


User currently offlinePnwtraveler From Canada, joined Jun 2007, 2243 posts, RR: 12
Reply 10, posted (5 years 10 months 4 weeks 19 hours ago) and read 9182 times:

The Vultures are circling. Even if by some miracle Alitalia survives much long airlines like LH and others are going to keep chipping away at them. I know a bunch of people who save a lot of money going to places like Lebanon and fly from YYZ to Italy to connect. They are fed up and not only are not flying Alitalia but are also by passing Italy due to the constant strikes.

User currently offlineJanmnastami From Italy, joined Apr 2008, 828 posts, RR: 0
Reply 11, posted (5 years 10 months 4 weeks 16 hours ago) and read 8773 times:

Today the unions will have to accept the working contracts proposed by CAI or refuse them, because CAI needs to send its offer to the special commissioner of AZ before midnight (deadline).

User currently offlineSSTsomeday From Canada, joined Oct 2006, 1276 posts, RR: 1
Reply 12, posted (5 years 10 months 4 weeks 15 hours ago) and read 8680 times:

I don't understand this...

1) How does Alitalia keep getting more money when they have been bleeding cash for over a year and were supposed to have run out a long time ago? I thought there were EEC rules that prevent infusions of cash to keep an airline operating. Alitalia has received many. What gives?

2) Apparently the union had agreed in general to the terms. Is it unreasonable for them to want to read the fine print, or are they now attempting to renege on what they agreed to in principle?

Frankly I think Alitalia SHOULD fold and a new airline be resurrected from the ashes, like Swiss. This is ridiculous.



I come in peace
User currently offlineSKAirbus From Norway, joined Oct 2007, 1738 posts, RR: 1
Reply 13, posted (5 years 10 months 4 weeks 13 hours ago) and read 8268 times:

I reckon there is some foul play by the Italian government here... they are obviously handing cash over to Alitalia on the side....

I guess the EU will investigate in due course....



Next Flights: LHR-OSL (319-BA), OSL-LHR (319-BA), LHR-CPH (320-BA), VXO-BMA (S20-TF), ARN-CPH (738-SK), CPH-LHR (320-BA)
User currently offlineBeagleboys From Italy, joined Jun 2006, 230 posts, RR: 0
Reply 14, posted (5 years 10 months 4 weeks 11 hours ago) and read 7414 times:

as i said in another topic the unions are now discussing with CAI about the rules on how CAI will hire the ex-AZ/AP/VA employees. It's very difficult to decide how to handle the seniority of these guys that come from different airlines. They agreed some months ago on the contract...
I have first hand news from the room... A friend of mine works for one of these union..



Nervous? Yes. First Times? No, I've been nervous lots of times. -Airplane!
User currently offlineMBJ2000 From Germany, joined Dec 2005, 426 posts, RR: 0
Reply 15, posted (5 years 10 months 4 weeks 10 hours ago) and read 7059 times:



Quoting SKAirbus (Reply 13):
I reckon there is some foul play by the Italian government here... they are obviously handing cash over to Alitalia on the side....

I guess the EU will investigate in due course....

The problem is, now with governments all over Europe spending billions of € to save this or that bank, AZ can easily ask for the same form of help and nobody will notice...



Like most of life's problems, this one can be solved with bending -- Bender Unit 22
User currently offlineDavescj From United States of America, joined Jun 2007, 2307 posts, RR: 0
Reply 16, posted (5 years 10 months 4 weeks 10 hours ago) and read 7031 times:



Quoting MBJ2000 (Reply 15):
The problem is, now with governments all over Europe spending billions of € to save this or that bank, AZ can easily ask for the same form of help and nobody will notice...

It is a problem with the unions in general with Italy. They can (and do) cause paralysis in the country. I think anyone who would accept AZ would first have to force the unions to void all contracts, and make them see reality -- the gov. won't be paying any more.

Dave



Can I have a mojito on this flight?
User currently offlineMax777geek From Italy, joined Mar 2007, 538 posts, RR: 0
Reply 17, posted (5 years 10 months 4 weeks 8 hours ago) and read 6394 times:

last news says that or unions sign the agreement by midnight or tomorrow there will be no Alitalia to save from failure.

User currently offlineAircraftGeek From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 18, posted (5 years 10 months 4 weeks 7 hours ago) and read 6152 times:



Quoting Max777geek (Reply 17):
last news says that or unions sign the agreement by midnight or tomorrow there will be no Alitalia to save from failure.

I don't trust anymore those "last call" warnings... Always bleeding and never dieing.

Quoting IL96M (Reply 9):
Disgraceful. Utopian, really. In any other country AZ would e long defunct...

DIE! DIE DIE!!!!!

 thumbsup  And the generic Mario Rossi will continue to pay for this national shame...


User currently offlineJouy31 From France, joined May 2003, 447 posts, RR: 10
Reply 19, posted (5 years 10 months 4 weeks 6 hours ago) and read 5807 times:

CAI has decided NOT to submit a binding offer for Alitala (until the next episode ...)

Source : Forbes
http://www.forbes.com/afxnewslimited...eds/afx/2008/10/31/afx5633565.html


User currently offlineBeaucaire From Syria, joined Sep 2003, 5252 posts, RR: 24
Reply 20, posted (5 years 10 months 4 weeks 6 hours ago) and read 5784 times:

I expected something like that to happen- you ain't no fooli'n arround with investors trying to pump billions into a sinkink ship and try to impose non-compatible ideas..
Italian trade unions are solely responsible for this particular situation.Time to end the drama and pull the plug..



Please respect animals - don't eat them...
User currently offlineFlyDreamliner From United States of America, joined Jan 2006, 2759 posts, RR: 15
Reply 21, posted (5 years 10 months 4 weeks 5 hours ago) and read 5671 times:

The smart thing for the investors would be to just let it die, buy out the functional pieces after it has crumbled, and let the unions die off with their host. At this point, all they are is a parasite slowly killing off their host.

The longer this goes on, the more foreign competitors will creep in and set up markets, just as LH is doing right now.



"Let the world change you, and you can change the world"
User currently offlineBW424 From Trinidad and Tobago, joined Sep 2008, 1432 posts, RR: 1
Reply 22, posted (5 years 10 months 4 weeks 5 hours ago) and read 5537 times:



Quoting Beaucaire (Reply 20):
The smart thing for the investors would be to just let it die, buy out the functional pieces after it has crumbled, and let the unions die off with their host. At this point, all they are is a parasite slowly killing off their host.



Quoting Beaucaire (Reply 20):
Italian trade unions are solely responsible for this particular situation.Time to end the drama and pull the plug..

Hopefully we do see the plug pulled,and as you said,let the unions die with them.



It is what we think we know already that prevents us from learning.......
User currently offlineMax777geek From Italy, joined Mar 2007, 538 posts, RR: 0
Reply 23, posted (5 years 10 months 4 weeks 5 hours ago) and read 5473 times:



Quoting AircraftGeek (Reply 18):

Quoting Max777geek (Reply 17):
last news says that or unions sign the agreement by midnight or tomorrow there will be no Alitalia to save from failure.

I don't trust anymore those "last call" warnings... Always bleeding and never dieing.

Well, if you check repubblica, flying crews did not sign and Cai retired the bid.
So by tomorrow Alitalia should have flying ops permission retired.


User currently offlineBobnwa From United States of America, joined Dec 2000, 6477 posts, RR: 9
Reply 24, posted (5 years 10 months 4 weeks 5 hours ago) and read 5385 times:



Quoting Max777geek (Reply 23):
So by tomorrow Alitalia should have flying ops permission retired.

It seems as though I have read that at least 132 times before. Why is this time different?


25 Luvflng : Will somebody put this airline out of misery?
26 Heavierthanair : G'day Not going to happen. Remember, this is Italy. Problems are not resolved here, they are talked away. Silvio Bu.... err Berlusconi can simply not
27 Davescj : We have hit the reality. Italy is not going to let its flag carrier go. It doesn't matter what it takes. If the gov has to give a million euro a day
28 Flighty : Why can't the scurrilous citizens and investors of Italy just submit to the powerful and righteous will of union workers? Is it so hard to accept that
29 Mutu : A stunningly ignorant comment. Could you give some examples of business and trade matters where Britain has ignored the rules? (OK I can think of a b
30 Beaucaire : There is still the the matter of Air operating licence - the director of the Italian office for issuing the AOL's has insisted that without binding fi
31 Janmnastami : CAI has presented its bid.
32 Max777geek : Cai presented its bid but pilots and flying crew unions did not sign the agreement so cai born as the first airline .... without pilots !
33 Janmnastami : Maybe CAI is introducing planes without pilots
34 YULWinterSkies : Well, if there is such a supposed economic downturn, why invest in the airline? Don't know why this guy has taken this responsibility. It looks kind
35 PanHAM : ....or the Director is gone... Die Welt has a short article saying that the investors returned and will submit an offer. Hard to believe that the uni
36 Post contains links Heavierthanair : G'day The saga appears to go on http://news.yahoo.com/s/afp/20081031...;_ylt=AskxaQ9FTnnrU6kVxpqUmLumOrgF Cheers Peter
37 Max777geek : Piaggio produces also an innovative ariplane, which is a good product of its category. Well, if the airline will be over not raising incomes existing
38 Malaysia : The Piaggio P-108 Bomber was a cool plane, it had engine turrets
39 Max777geek : My vespa was fine too, it had engine
40 Post contains links Oa260 : EU rules warning on Alitalia deal The rescue deal for the Italian airline Alitalia must not breach European Union competition rules, the carrier's ban
41 AircraftGeek : Hmmm... another day passed and Alitalia is still alive... The shame goes on...
42 Davescj : And has been said by others, do you think Italy will really listen? I doubt it (personally). Again, I think it is a shame that what could be a great
43 ComeAndGo : It wasn't the unions that put AZ into it's current shape. The earlier squabbles were about union contracts. The issue now is pilot seniority. As you
44 Janmnastami : The point is that AP hasn't declared insolvency. AZ has declared insolvency. You can't fire AP's workers: AP is bought from CAI, while CAI buys only s
45 Rj777 : For Pete's sake! isn't their some board or something out there that can ORDER Alitalia to shut down? All this back and forth, on again-off again stuff
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