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Frontier Fleet Change  
User currently offlineEnilria From Canada, joined Feb 2008, 6838 posts, RR: 14
Posted (5 years 5 months 3 weeks 9 hours ago) and read 11569 times:

It appears Frontier dropped 1 mainline airplane from their schedule starting in January.

The reduced flying involves cutting Denver-Spokane to just 1 roundtrip from 2 and Denver-San Jose,CA from 4 roundtrips to 2 roundtrips. In April they reduced frequency on most of the remaining Mexico routes and dropped Kansas City-Puerto Vallarta earlier than usual. Mazatlan has been dropped as of May and Cozumel as of July. Those may be seasonal moves, but they are earlier than usual (both used to be all year).

This may proceed the sale of another aircraft or it could be a precursor to an announcement of new service.

71 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlinePhelpsie87 From United States of America, joined Apr 2006, 498 posts, RR: 2
Reply 1, posted (5 years 5 months 3 weeks 9 hours ago) and read 11544 times:

I wouldn’t call this "early" considering many airlines will be on reduced schedules as of next week. Also, I wouldn't call this a "fleet change." It is simply a reduction in service. Even if it is for the sale of one aircraft, it wouldn't surprise me considering their current state.

Perhaps we need an F9 insider on this one.


User currently offlineEnilria From Canada, joined Feb 2008, 6838 posts, RR: 14
Reply 2, posted (5 years 5 months 3 weeks 9 hours ago) and read 11461 times:



Quoting Phelpsie87 (Reply 1):
I wouldn’t call this "early" considering many airlines will be on reduced schedules as of next week.

No I mean the routes are being dropped for the season "earlier", meaning the season is shorter than it has been in the past.


User currently offlineDfanucci From United States of America, joined Jul 2008, 214 posts, RR: 0
Reply 3, posted (5 years 5 months 3 weeks 8 hours ago) and read 11406 times:

Quoting Enilria (Thread starter):
The reduced flying involves cutting Denver-Spokane to just 1 roundtrip from 2

Yup. I was on the phone with them yesterday ( I live in Spokane ) and as of right now their schedule only shows out to the 22nd of April. I was trying to book in May and as far as Customer Service knew, this is a seasonal change. The schedule update should be out in a couple days, so we should know more then.

Usually the morning flight out of Spokane is pretty booked as it is a good feeder for MCO in the summer months.

[Edited 2008-10-31 06:43:08]

User currently offlineEnilria From Canada, joined Feb 2008, 6838 posts, RR: 14
Reply 4, posted (5 years 5 months 3 weeks 6 hours ago) and read 11113 times:



Quoting Phelpsie87 (Reply 1):
It is simply a reduction in service.

I have confirmed there is one less aircraft line in this schedule versus last week starting in January. It could be going to maintenance for all I know, but it is one less scheduled aircraft.

Quoting Dfanucci (Reply 3):

Usually the morning flight out of Spokane is pretty booked as it is a good feeder for MCO in the summer months.

I'm sure they would run GEG with 2 in the Summer. They would just cut something else instead if they have reduced the fleet.


User currently offlineSuper80DFW From United States of America, joined Oct 2007, 1661 posts, RR: 11
Reply 5, posted (5 years 5 months 3 weeks 1 hour ago) and read 10700 times:

And what does this have to do with a fleet change?


"Things change, friends leave, life doesn't stop for anybody." -- EAT'EM UP EAT'EM UP KSU!!
User currently offlineDTWAGENT From United States of America, joined Jan 2006, 1283 posts, RR: 0
Reply 6, posted (5 years 5 months 3 weeks ago) and read 10489 times:

This is the sign of the times. But, I have the same question as Super80DFW has. What does this have to do with a fleet change?

Chuck


User currently offlinePlanesNTrains From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 5267 posts, RR: 29
Reply 7, posted (5 years 5 months 3 weeks ago) and read 10120 times:



Quoting Super80DFW (Reply 5):
And what does this have to do with a fleet change?



Quoting DTWAGENT (Reply 6):
But, I have the same question as Super80DFW has. What does this have to do with a fleet change?

Perhaps instead of Fleet Change, he meant Change to the Fleet?

-Dave



Totes my goats!
User currently offlineBOSSHEP From United States of America, joined Mar 2007, 8 posts, RR: 0
Reply 8, posted (5 years 5 months 3 weeks ago) and read 10092 times:

I saw a Frontier a/c sitting in a hangar in JAX last week.. Do they have contract mx there or is this possibly for a sale...?

User currently offlineMariner From New Zealand, joined Nov 2001, 24638 posts, RR: 86
Reply 9, posted (5 years 5 months 2 weeks 6 days 23 hours ago) and read 9857 times:
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Quoting BOSSHEP (Reply 8):
I saw a Frontier a/c sitting in a hangar in JAX last week.. Do they have contract mx there or is this possibly for a sale...?

The A318's are having a seat modification at JAX.

mariner

[Edited 2008-10-31 15:54:29]


aeternum nauta
User currently offlineJetdeltamsy From United States of America, joined Nov 2000, 2986 posts, RR: 8
Reply 10, posted (5 years 5 months 2 weeks 6 days 18 hours ago) and read 7719 times:

Frontier is in serious financial trouble.

Southweest is devastating their business. And United, i'm sure is flying below cost to defend their position at DEN.

Sad to see. Frontier brought a little bit of civility to the Denver market. I'm a big Southwest fan, but I hate it that they have the power to destroy whole companies.....Morris, Transtar, etc....



Tired of airline bankruptcies....EA/PA/TW and finally DL.
User currently offlineMariner From New Zealand, joined Nov 2001, 24638 posts, RR: 86
Reply 11, posted (5 years 5 months 2 weeks 6 days 17 hours ago) and read 7635 times:
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Quoting Jetdeltamsy (Reply 10):
but I hate it that they have the power to destroy whole companies.....Morris, Transtar, etc....

Southwest purchased Morris Air at the invitation of June Morris, who, at the time, has serious concerns about her health.

The purchase was completely amicable, and Ms. Morris was appointed to the board of Southwest.

http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpag...9F0CE3DA1F30F937A25751C1A965958260

Of Ms. Morris, Mr. Kelleher said:

""We are kindred spirits," said Herbert D. Kelleher, Southwest's chief executive."

Muse Air/Transtar was in serious financial doo-doo and Southwest's purchase of it allowed the founder, Lamar Muse, to leave the stage with some dignity.

A note dis-similar course of action happened with ATA. Southwest gave George Mikelsons the one thing that Airtran would have taken away - for the airline to continue under it's own (original) name.

That ATA later went belly-up had nothing to do with Southwest.

mariner



aeternum nauta
User currently offlineF9Animal From United States of America, joined Dec 2004, 4947 posts, RR: 28
Reply 12, posted (5 years 5 months 2 weeks 6 days 17 hours ago) and read 7441 times:



Quoting Mariner (Reply 11):
Southwest purchased Morris Air at the invitation of June Morris, who, at the time, has serious concerns about her health.

The purchase was completely amicable, and Ms. Morris was appointed to the board of Southwest.

http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpag...9F0CE3DA1F30F937A25751C1A965958260

Of Ms. Morris, Mr. Kelleher said:

""We are kindred spirits," said Herbert D. Kelleher, Southwest's chief executive."

Muse Air/Transtar was in serious financial doo-doo and Southwest's purchase of it allowed the founder, Lamar Muse, to leave the stage with some dignity.

A note dis-similar course of action happened with ATA. Southwest gave George Mikelsons the one thing that Airtran would have taken away - for the airline to continue under it's own (original) name.

That ATA later went belly-up had nothing to do with Southwest.

mariner

Very well said Mariner. I have said it a thousand times, and I am sure this wont be my last. WN has never to my knowledge "killed" an airline. WN is out to make money, and they saw an opportunity in DEN. It was not if WN would ever serve DEN again, but when. Sure the timing was not great. F9 is holding its own, and they are finding an altitude without so much turbulence. Great thing in their favor is the drop in oil.



I Am A Different Animal!!
User currently offlineAAden From United States of America, joined Jan 2006, 834 posts, RR: 0
Reply 13, posted (5 years 5 months 2 weeks 6 days 16 hours ago) and read 7310 times:

Could anyone tell me how much trouble frontier is in?

User currently offlineMariner From New Zealand, joined Nov 2001, 24638 posts, RR: 86
Reply 14, posted (5 years 5 months 2 weeks 6 days 15 hours ago) and read 7189 times:
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Quoting AAden (Reply 13):
Could anyone tell me how much trouble frontier is in?

They are in Chapter 11.

mariner



aeternum nauta
User currently offlineLuv2cattlecall From United States of America, joined Sep 2007, 1650 posts, RR: 2
Reply 15, posted (5 years 5 months 2 weeks 6 days 13 hours ago) and read 6932 times:
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Quoting Mariner (Reply 9):

The A318's are having a seat modification at JAX.

mariner

What are they having done to the seats? They are relatively new, aren't they?



When you have to breaststroke to your connecting flight...it's a crash!
User currently offlinePetteri From United States of America, joined Aug 2007, 264 posts, RR: 0
Reply 16, posted (5 years 5 months 2 weeks 6 days 11 hours ago) and read 6645 times:

They are adding seats to the 318s and I do think that there are still a few 319s that are waiting for the additional seats.


The above comments are my personal comments and in no way should be viewed as the views,policy or statements of JetBlue
User currently onlineSPREE34 From United States of America, joined Jun 2004, 2195 posts, RR: 9
Reply 17, posted (5 years 5 months 2 weeks 5 days 19 hours ago) and read 5937 times:



Quoting Jetdeltamsy (Reply 10):
I hate it that they have the power to destroy whole companies.....Morris, Transtar, etc....

Give us some examples please.



I don't understand everything I don't know about this.
User currently offlineNASCARAirforce From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 3150 posts, RR: 5
Reply 18, posted (5 years 5 months 2 weeks 5 days 18 hours ago) and read 5835 times:



Quoting Mariner (Reply 14):
They are in Chapter 11.

When they went into Chapter 11, it wasn't because they were in so much financial trouble - because they have a lot of assets - it had more to do with a financing company they deal with that was having troubles.


User currently offlineEnilria From Canada, joined Feb 2008, 6838 posts, RR: 14
Reply 19, posted (5 years 5 months 2 weeks 4 days 22 hours ago) and read 5461 times:



Quoting Enilria (Reply 4):
I have confirmed there is one less aircraft line in this schedule versus last week starting in January. It could be going to maintenance for all I know, but it is one less scheduled aircraft.



Quoting Enilria (Reply 4):
And what does this have to do with a fleet change?

1 less aircraft in the scheduled fleet is by definition a change in the fleet. Not a big one, but a change.

Quoting Mariner (Reply 11):
Muse Air/Transtar was in serious financial doo-doo and Southwest's purchase of it allowed the founder, Lamar Muse, to leave the stage with some dignity.

A note dis-similar course of action happened with ATA. Southwest gave George Mikelsons the one thing that Airtran would have taken away - for the airline to continue under it's own (original) name.

That ATA later went belly-up had nothing to do with Southwest.

As I've stated many times I completely disagree, but there is not point rearguing it. I have made a point of asking management people in the industry whether they think WN ran ATA and Muse out of business over the last several months (as well as attempting it with F9) and even though it appears that the majority of posters on a.net think WN is passive, my informal poll is 100% the opposite. I have yet to find someone in management and in the industry (who doesn't work at WN of course) who doesn't think WN stuck the knife in and twisted. It's interesting how a.net seems to diverge from that, but everybody is entitled to an opinion.

I suppose there is also the use of the term "caused". When anything happens whether it be an auto accident or a liquidation there are always many factors. Pinning an event on a single factor is probably simplistic. Despite all of that I still disagree that WN is innocent of the desire to ween the industry of weaker players since that is synonymous with the Darwinian basis of capitalism. Just ask Iceland!


User currently offlineMariner From New Zealand, joined Nov 2001, 24638 posts, RR: 86
Reply 20, posted (5 years 5 months 2 weeks 4 days 21 hours ago) and read 5370 times:
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Quoting Enilria (Reply 19):
As I've stated many times I completely disagree, but there is not point rearguing it.

They why do so?

Nothing you say changes my opinion, and I do not not see how you can possibly deny that June Morris initiated the Southwest purchase since it is a matter of public record.

For the rest, I speak for myself, I do not speak for "a.net."

There are - obviously - some people on a.net who disagree with me, such as the poster to whom I replied.

mariner



aeternum nauta
User currently offlineLAXintl From United States of America, joined May 2000, 24325 posts, RR: 47
Reply 21, posted (5 years 5 months 2 weeks 4 days 19 hours ago) and read 5254 times:



Quoting Enilria (Reply 19):
I have made a point of asking management people in the industry whether they think WN ran ATA and Muse out of business over the last several months (as well as attempting it with F9) and even though it appears that the majority of posters on a.net think WN is passive, my informal poll is 100% the opposite.

Well with my near 30 years of living and breathing this industry, I would be one that disagrees.

Yes Southwest is a very fierce competitor, with relatively deep pockets vis-a-vis many of their peers.
However in my view, the airline has never declared war on any market or carriers with the intent of wiping someone off the map. Yes thru SWA actions many carriers have suffered. Just look at California for instance -- in a little more then a decade, SWA managed to become the largest carrier at most of the states airports and to carry the most passengers intra-state at the expense of competitors as US Air, American, Delta and United. However just because SWA achieved what it did, does not mean the carrier set out run 4 major carriers out of much of the intra-state transportation business. SWA simply had a better mouse trap - one that appealed and served the consumers better.

And as Mariner mentions the Morris merger was absolutely at the behest of Morris, while the Muse one more of a symbolic gesture to an old friend and certainly not one based one economics as Muse did not have much to bring to the table with its continued loss making operation. As far as ATA, my view is that SWA relationship with ATA was meant to do two things 1) allow additional facilities at MDW 2) managed to provide incremental system revenue and feed for SWA. However when the end was insight for sick man ATA, it simply did not provide enough value for SWA to step in and help keep it afloat. (p.s. - I hope you remember ATA's last coffin nails was the loss of its AMC charter business, not something SWA did or did not do.)

At the end of the day, I don't believe its justified to state that SWA killed airline A or B. In many ways most airlines were casualties of their own doing, and its not SWA's fault that it has a more successful and efficient operation over its peers.



From the desert to the sea, to all of Southern California
User currently offlineF9Animal From United States of America, joined Dec 2004, 4947 posts, RR: 28
Reply 22, posted (5 years 5 months 2 weeks 4 days 17 hours ago) and read 5124 times:

Quoting Enilria (Reply 19):
As I've stated many times I completely disagree, but there is not point rearguing it. I have made a point of asking management people in the industry whether they think WN ran ATA and Muse out of business over the last several months (as well as attempting it with F9) and even though it appears that the majority of posters on a.net think WN is passive, my informal poll is 100% the opposite. I have yet to find someone in management and in the industry (who doesn't work at WN of course) who doesn't think WN stuck the knife in and twisted. It's interesting how a.net seems to diverge from that, but everybody is entitled to an opinion.

WN is going to go on ones turf. The one that "supposedly owns the turf" will put up one hell of a fight to get WN out of their turf. That is where WN will whoop some airplane tail. Take US Airways as a classic example. When WN announced BWI as their next city, US Airways started Metro Jet. US was going to teach WN a lesson, and get them out of BWI. They painted 737's in a sharp color, put up a hell of a show, and shook their fists as WN taxied past. They thought WN would just back away, and fear US Airways. What happened? Who threw the first punch? And what did WN do? Nothing. They putted along, doing what they do best, which is running a good airline.

If an airline approaches WN as a hostile destroyer, the chances are high that the airline that chooses to put up a fight to rid WN from their turf is going to hurt itself badly. WN is going to fly where it wants to fly, and will choose where it will go next. Airlines have learned to adapt to the change, and because of that, WN is not a killer. WN is a company out to make money. If DEN was not going to result in any future money for WN, then they would not have flown there. If WN does not think it won't make money in MSP, it won't fly there.

WN is all about dollars and cents. The name of the game is making money, and running a good airline. WN will try to attract competitors traffic, no doubt. But at the same time, airlines are trying to attract WN traffic.

[Edited 2008-11-02 20:41:42]


I Am A Different Animal!!
User currently offlineEnilria From Canada, joined Feb 2008, 6838 posts, RR: 14
Reply 23, posted (5 years 5 months 2 weeks 4 days 8 hours ago) and read 4950 times:



Quoting Mariner (Reply 20):

Nothing you say changes my opinion, and I do not not see how you can possibly deny that June Morris initiated the Southwest purchase since it is a matter of public record.

I didn't argue the points, but if you are going to bring it up I'm going to at least state I disagree lest people think that is canon.

Quoting F9Animal (Reply 22):
If an airline approaches WN as a hostile destroyer

Who has ever done that? Maybe Muse, but I don't think he believed he could destroy WN.

Quoting F9Animal (Reply 22):

WN is all about dollars and cents.

Which is not at all incompatible with economic Darwinism.

In general, I don't see why people (not you) equate survival of the fittest with EVIL. It's nature...it's capitalism. The weak die at the hands of the strong. The strong survive and prosper until somebody stronger comes along and knocks them from their perch. Are people implying that we are supposed to be more evolved? Capitalism isn't any more evolved than that. If people think it's evil there aren't many places left to live...Cuba?


User currently offlineDfanucci From United States of America, joined Jul 2008, 214 posts, RR: 0
Reply 24, posted (5 years 5 months 2 weeks 4 days 7 hours ago) and read 4887 times:

Interesting....

http://www.rockymountainnews.com/new...ontier-gets-ok-to-toss-union-pact/

The judge telling Frontier that they "don't get it" is sure different than the blasting the IBT lawyers took in reading the dockets regarding the hearing.....

Oil prices is what is driving this thing. It's like trying to nail jello to a wall regarding the future...


25 Luv2fly : Easter for 2009 falls on April 12th that could be one reason for some early reductions in flying.
26 Mariner : Yet you keep saying: And still you do. To present some kind of informal straw poll that you have conducted is scarcely evidence - countless numbers o
27 Enilria : I firmly believe WN is out to kill F9 for the purpose of facilitating their own growth...not out of malice. That isn't the same as succeeding. It app
28 Mariner : I am fully aware of your position and you keep saying there is no point in "rearguing" it. I agree there is no point. Yet still you do. And still I b
29 ScottB : You simply cannot argue that at all. Morris didn't sell out to Southwest due to pressure or force. June Morris approached Southwest due to her health
30 Enilria : I said I wouldn't argue the details again now and I'm not, but suffice it to say I don't view it that way and a lot of people don't either. As I said
31 PlanesNTrains : Please tell me that you understand why he even said that. He was illustrating why June Morris went down the road she did, rather than it being "South
32 Mariner : And still you pursue it. How can I make it any clearer that I am not moved by what "a lot of people" think? The whole point of a Conventional Wisdom
33 Cubsrule : What forceful anti-TZ action did WN take?
34 Enilria : I'm not trying to change your mind. You have strongly held opinions and you have a right to them. My comments are intended for everybody. Some people
35 Mariner : If you quote me, I assume you are responding to my post. That's how it usually works on a.net. mariner
36 Cubsrule : I have a hard time believing that any of the adds in 2002 had an effect on TZ; they seemed to do just fine for quite a while afterward. Furthermore,
37 Enilria : As I said you can always take another factor and say it is the primary factor. It comes down to opinion as to which was the primary factor. Certainly
38 Cubsrule : But if TZ had had smaller aircraft, WN would have had much more trouble succeeding. Much as I feel like Bill Clinton saying this, it really comes dow
39 LAXintl : Sorry Enrila - I don't buy your theory that SWA was out to kill ATA with any MDW buildups. Instead of focusing in on a very narrow MDW flight frequenc
40 KingCavalier : How come every F9 thread turns into a WN thread? When I read the title "Frontier Fleet Change" I thought Frontier was adding a new aircraft or elimina
41 Mariner : Given the high number of hits the thread had very early, I think a lot of people thought the title meant they were switching the entire fleet from Ai
42 ScottB : Mmm, it's tough to say it's "demonstrably false" unless you know which metric they've chosen to determine success. If the metric is getting passenger
43 Enilria : ATA's fleet choices were a big factor in what happened, but I still think WN went in for the kill. There is no conspiracy. As I've said countless tim
44 KingCavalier : Are you including the Lynx markets in this?
45 LAXintl : Off course SWA entered most of ATA's markets. No coincidence but ATA pretty much covered every top Chicago market with its flights to the West Coast,
46 LAXintl : p.s. - dont forget also the fact that prior to the arrival of the 737-700 SWA lacked a plane that could succesfully operate longer routes such as the
47 Cubsrule : That's why I'm confused. The markets WN entered were the largest Chicago travel markets that they didn't serve... How can you show a connection to TZ
48 Enilria : Southwest has added service to Denver from every common F9/WN station except two last I counted. I'm not sure what you mean by Lynx, but ATA also ope
49 Dfanucci : Well to get this thread somewhat back on topic, it looks as if Frontier did in fact lose a flight from GEG to DEN. This throws a huge wrench in travel
50 TheGreatChecko : In the current economy, do you really think the same amount of people will be flying to MCO all the way from GEG? All the vacation destinations will
51 Cubsrule : Look at the pattern... lots of short-haul flying. That was once WN's strategy at all stations, and it was the strategy with which they started MDW. 7
52 Luv2cattlecall : Nice...it's not like management at other companies has an axe to grind/is jealous of WN or anything...
53 Enilria : In general, it is very difficult to fly a domestic spoke with 1 flight successfully because the number of roundtrip connections are usually diminishe
54 KingCavalier : You say WN has added service to Denver from every common F9/WN station except two but you always ignore the number of markets that are served by F9 b
55 LAXintl : Do you know what happended at MDW in 2001? That should help answer why SWA's flight activity expanded greatly in the following years. Answer - new te
56 Cubsrule : Elnira also ignores the WN stations that F9 has served but has now left... I believe that's just JAX and BDL, but there may be a couple more.
57 AirportGuy1971 : Okay, now I REALLY can't believe you think that's true. WP killed themselves and ALMOST killed F9 by initiating that merger. F9 was to dissappear int
58 KingCavalier : Add YYC, FAT, ACA, GDL, BTR and MEM as cities that F9 chose to leave that are/were not served by WN. The decision to leave was not based on a WN incu
59 Enilria : It's not ignoring if you specify "common stations" as I always do. I don't think it is really realistic to expect WN to add stations just so they can
60 Cubsrule : How would an all-Y 733 perform on MDW-LAX? No. WN has never flown from DEN to BDL BOI DTW ELP GEG JAX SDF TUS ...which proves what he said -The merge
61 LAXintl : Like we said earlier -- SWA did not have capable planes to make it to the West Coast from MDW in years prior. The 73G fleet was just starting to grow
62 Mariner : That is a revision of history. It did not happen like that, as is shown in your own link from Wikipedia. mariner
63 Enilria : BOI has gone back mainline, so that one is fair. ELP isn't mainline so I don't count it. F9 no longer serves JAX/SDF. So there are BOI/DTW/GEG/TUS. O
64 Enilria : ...at least the thread is back on Frontier again. Perhaps it is a good time to let this thread rest in peace since 97% of it is just rehashing umpteen
65 Mariner : Except that your interpretation of it is contrary to what actually happened. mariner
66 Dfanucci : I don't think the economy is going to change United's plans or Delta's plans with thier routes through DEN and SLC... Agree, which is why I think Fro
67 Mariner : It may be. But I would be wary, as so often with Frontier, of reading an entire Bible in one verse. However well they do in summer, a number of these
68 Cubsrule : Of course they did, but the decision not to merge didn't have anything to do with a desire to kill WP. You act like F9 dreamed up the whole merger as
69 AirportGuy1971 : You said... And then backed up you statement with... Do you see why people have trouble with your assesments? Frontier DID NOT offer a merge and force
70 Dfanucci : Sound advice. I'm hoping this is the case regarding this issue. Here in Spokane we have been treated to United, Delta, America West (US Air), Alaska
71 AirframeAS : There is no fleet change. There is a aircraft utilization and schedule change. If there was a fleet change, we would be seeing an addition or subtract
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