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Delta Gives Up One U.S.-Brazil Frequency  
User currently offlineMAH4546 From Sweden, joined Jan 2001, 33286 posts, RR: 71
Posted (6 years 1 month 3 weeks 1 day 5 hours ago) and read 9045 times:

Today Delta notified DOT that service between Atlanta and Manaus will launch at 6x weekly rather than daily, and has forfeited one U.S.-Brazil frequency to the Department of Transportation.

Smart first move by Delta. Delta and AA are competing for United's unallocated two frequencies, but AA only wants one of them. This allows AA to take this unused frequency, and Delta can take the two from United - which can be used to GRU - and problem solved absent AA amending their application for United's frequencies.

So out of the original application for 21 U.S.-Brazil frequencies opened this year, looks like American Airlines will end up getting 52% of the frequencies and 100% of their original application, while Delta gets 48% of the frequencies and 66% of their original application.


a.
102 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineOA412 From United States of America, joined Dec 2000, 5373 posts, RR: 24
Reply 1, posted (6 years 1 month 3 weeks 1 day 5 hours ago) and read 8989 times:

I agree that this is a smart move. As long as AA doesn't amend their application, it looks like it will be win/win for everyone involved.


Hughes Airwest - Top Banana In The West
User currently offlineSCL767 From Chile, joined Feb 2006, 8862 posts, RR: 5
Reply 2, posted (6 years 1 month 3 weeks 1 day 5 hours ago) and read 8949 times:

Hopefully, AA will be able to increase frequency to CNF.

User currently offlineLipeGIG From Brazil, joined May 2005, 11459 posts, RR: 58
Reply 3, posted (6 years 1 month 3 weeks 23 hours ago) and read 8580 times:
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Quoting MAH4546 (Thread starter):
Today Delta notified DOT that service between Atlanta and Manaus will launch at 6x weekly rather than daily, and has forfeited one U.S.-Brazil frequency to the Department of Transportation.

And i still doubt they can sustain this flight even 6x weekly. It should be later reduced to 4x weekly.

Quoting MAH4546 (Thread starter):
Smart first move by Delta. Delta and AA are competing for United's unallocated two frequencies, but AA only wants one of them. This allows AA to take this unused frequency, and Delta can take the two from United - which can be used to GRU - and problem solved absent AA amending their application for United's frequencies

Well, it is a smart move as it will allow both airlines to marketing the routes even for the high season, but sales right now to Brazil are not so strong as two months ago.



New York + Rio de Janeiro = One of the best combinations !
User currently offlineLipeGIG From Brazil, joined May 2005, 11459 posts, RR: 58
Reply 4, posted (6 years 1 month 3 weeks 22 hours ago) and read 8503 times:
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That's the comments from AA and DL regarding the 2 ex-UA frequencies

AA:


http://airlineinfo.com/ostpdf72/157.pdf
- AA enphasizes that 73% of restricted frequencies serves São Paulo
- CNF-MIA will connect 20 city's while GRU-LAX only 7, being 2 already serviced to São Paulo by DL (ATL/JFK)
- DOT precedent focus on serving bad served markets over well served ones

American Airlines, Inc., in response to Order 2008-10-20, October 21, 2008, hereby supplements its application of August 14, 2008 in OST-2008-0247 for the re-allocation of one of two dormant U.S.-Brazil weekly combination frequencies from United Air Lines, Inc. We propose to use this authority to increase our Miami-Belo Horizonte service (which begins on November 4) from three times a week to four.

On August 29, 2008, Delta Air Lines, Inc. reacted to American's initiative by filing a competing application in OST-2008-0270 seeking both of United's dormant frequencies, which would leave American with none. Delta proposes nonstop service between Los Angeles and Sao Paulo three times a week, using the two frequencies at issue here plus one from Delta's existing portfolio by reducing New York/Atlanta-Brazil operations.

The Department should re-allocate one of United's two ex-frequencies to American, and one to Delta. It would be contrary to the public interest for Delta to receive both to the exclusion of American. Belo Horizonte has a greater need for additional service than Sao Paulo. The Department should conclude this case promptly so that American can finalize plans for increasing its Miami-Belo Horizonte frequencies from three to four times a week.


DL response

Delta proposes to maximize the public benefit derived from two long-dormant unrestricted U.S.-Brazil combination frequencies. Delta will leverage those frequencies by combining them with a third in Delta’s existing portfolio to open a brand new U.S. carrier gateway connecting the second largest metropolitan area in the United States to the largest in Brazil. Delta will bring Los Angeles its only U.S. carrier nonstop service to Brazil. In fact, Delta will provide the only such service from anywhere on the West Coast to any point in South America.

The only competing proposal is American’s. American seeks only one frequency and would use it to add one additional weekly flight to its Miami-Belo Horizonte schedule. American would open no new U.S.-Brazil gateway and leave the West Coast without U.S. carrier service to Brazil. It would also squander an unrestricted U.S.-Brazil frequency on a destination in Brazil that, unlike São Paulo, can be served with any of the many new frequencies that came available in 2008 or that will come available in 2009 and 2010.

American has so many U.S.-Brazil frequencies, it cannot even fully use the ones it already has. Although American had 47 frequencies at its disposal through October 2008 (excluding the ten gateway-restricted frequencies it was recently awarded), American’s Brazil service pattern over the course of the last three years has varied widely on a seasonal basis and has ranged to as few as 39 weekly flights during many periods. Significantly, the U.S.-Brazil Aviation Services Agreement allows carriers of both parties to operate extra combination service sections without a frequency allocation during the peak periods of June 15 – August 15 and December 15 – February 28. If these peak periods are excluded, American has failed to fully utilize its existing 47 unrestricted frequencies almost 80% of the time since January 2006. Adding yet another unrestricted frequency to American’s huge stash when it fails to fully use those it already has cannot possibly serve the public interest.

http://airlineinfo.com/ostpdf72/158.pdf



New York + Rio de Janeiro = One of the best combinations !
User currently offlineDavescj From United States of America, joined Jun 2007, 2307 posts, RR: 0
Reply 5, posted (6 years 1 month 3 weeks 21 hours ago) and read 8491 times:



Quoting LipeGIG (Reply 4):
On August 29, 2008, Delta Air Lines, Inc. reacted to American's initiative by filing a competing application in OST-2008-0270 seeking both of United's dormant frequencies, which would leave American with none.



Quoting LipeGIG (Reply 4):
American has so many U.S.-Brazil frequencies, it cannot even fully use the ones it already has.

Does this sound like two children to anyone else?

That said, why so many restrictions to fly into Brazil? Is it a USDOT restriction? Brazil? Joint?


LipeGIG, thanks for this posting! This is an interesting topic.


Dave



Can I have a mojito on this flight?
User currently onlineC010T3 From Brazil, joined Jul 2006, 3736 posts, RR: 19
Reply 6, posted (6 years 1 month 3 weeks 17 hours ago) and read 8405 times:



Quoting Davescj (Reply 5):
Does this sound like two children to anyone else?

That said, why so many restrictions to fly into Brazil? Is it a USDOT restriction? Brazil? Joint?

No, it seems like a big inscenation to me. Come on, Delta giving up a frequency so quickly as a response to AA's argumentation? It was all already discussed in advance. The only reason they didn't file a joint motion was not raise any cartel issues as they are dividing up the frequencies as they please.

The restrictions were imposed by Brazil as a condition for the expansion of the number of frequencies.


User currently offlineMaverickM11 From United States of America, joined Apr 2000, 17824 posts, RR: 46
Reply 7, posted (6 years 1 month 3 weeks 7 hours ago) and read 7249 times:



Quoting Davescj (Reply 5):
Does this sound like two children to anyone else?

It sounds like DL's 'route planning by throwing it against the wall and hoping it sticks' is alive and well



E pur si muove -Galileo
User currently offlineLipeGIG From Brazil, joined May 2005, 11459 posts, RR: 58
Reply 8, posted (6 years 1 month 3 weeks 6 hours ago) and read 7073 times:
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Quoting Davescj (Reply 5):
That said, why so many restrictions to fly into Brazil? Is it a USDOT restriction? Brazil? Joint?

Some says to protect the market, i prefer to say as Brazil doesn't know how to handle air traffic the only way to control is being restrictive.

Quoting Davescj (Reply 5):
LipeGIG, thanks for this posting! This is an interesting topic.

My pleasure.

Quoting Davescj (Reply 5):
Does this sound like two children to anyone else?

Funny is that these 2 frequencies remain unused for more than 6 years, and now both airlines begin to fight for them like being the last ones available. One clear thing is that DL only reacts because of AA has asked for the frequencies.



New York + Rio de Janeiro = One of the best combinations !
User currently offlineADXMatt From United States of America, joined Jul 2006, 954 posts, RR: 1
Reply 9, posted (6 years 1 month 3 weeks 6 hours ago) and read 7058 times:

Where is CO getting their frequencies for IAH-GIG nonstop?

Are these dormant rights that they are reviving or new ones?


User currently offlineMaverickM11 From United States of America, joined Apr 2000, 17824 posts, RR: 46
Reply 10, posted (6 years 1 month 3 weeks 6 hours ago) and read 6969 times:



Quoting ADXMatt (Reply 9):
Where is CO getting their frequencies for IAH-GIG nonstop?

Next round of non GRU frequencies is up for award starting JUN08



E pur si muove -Galileo
User currently offlineLipeGIG From Brazil, joined May 2005, 11459 posts, RR: 58
Reply 11, posted (6 years 1 month 3 weeks 4 hours ago) and read 6808 times:
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Quoting ADXMatt (Reply 9):
Are these dormant rights that they are reviving or new ones?

To understand better, the Brazil-US old agreement allowed 105 "unrestricted" frequencies and from such 105,

UA holds 23
CO holds 14
DL holds 21
AA holds the rest, or 47

From UA 23 frequencies and they in fact use 7 for it's seasonal IAD-GIG service but 2 of them has never been used since at least 2001.

The "new agreement" celebrated this year allowed more 21 (ex-São Paulo) which has been awarded to AA (10) and DL (11)

Now in 2009 (June) more 7 will be awarded, but they do not allow flights to São Paulo or to the South of Brazil

In Oct 2009 another 7 (ex-São Paulo)

In Oct 2010 more 21 will be available (ex-São Paulo)



New York + Rio de Janeiro = One of the best combinations !
User currently offlineHardiwv From Brazil, joined Oct 2004, 8780 posts, RR: 49
Reply 12, posted (6 years 1 month 2 weeks 5 days 14 hours ago) and read 6443 times:

Any news regarding when DOT could make a final decision? If DL wants to starts GRU-LAX in December it seems they wont have much time to market tickets.

Rgs,


User currently offlineLipeGIG From Brazil, joined May 2005, 11459 posts, RR: 58
Reply 13, posted (6 years 1 month 2 weeks 5 days 12 hours ago) and read 6310 times:
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Quoting Hardiwv (Reply 12):
Any news regarding when DOT could make a final decision? If DL wants to starts GRU-LAX in December it seems they wont have much time to market tickets.

You're right... DL timing for the new LAX-GRU wouldn't be so worst. Also, sales from both Brazil to US and to Brazil aren't so strong as it use to be.



New York + Rio de Janeiro = One of the best combinations !
User currently offlineTonytifao From Brazil, joined Mar 2005, 1035 posts, RR: 0
Reply 14, posted (6 years 1 month 2 weeks 5 days 12 hours ago) and read 6289 times:



Quoting LipeGIG (Reply 11):
Now in 2009 (June) more 7 will be awarded, but they do not allow flights to São Paulo or to the South of Brazil

Felipe, why can't they fly south of Brazil?

Quoting LipeGIG (Reply 13):
You're right... DL timing for the new LAX-GRU wouldn't be so worst. Also, sales from both Brazil to US and to Brazil aren't so strong as it use to be.

Why do you think this is the case? The economic slow down? Do you think AA will fill all their 777s during the summer season in Brazil?


User currently onlineC010T3 From Brazil, joined Jul 2006, 3736 posts, RR: 19
Reply 15, posted (6 years 1 month 2 weeks 5 days 12 hours ago) and read 6283 times:



Quoting Tonytifao (Reply 14):
Felipe, why can't they fly south of Brazil?

Because the bilateral does not allow it.


User currently offlineLipeGIG From Brazil, joined May 2005, 11459 posts, RR: 58
Reply 16, posted (6 years 1 month 2 weeks 5 days 11 hours ago) and read 6237 times:
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Quoting Tonytifao (Reply 14):
Felipe, why can't they fly south of Brazil?

ANAC divided the country into areas, and they only allow South of Brazil by Oct 2009 draft.
The fact is that, POA and CWB does not have a good runway for long haul at this time... they have plans to extend them but we all know... not before 2010.

Quoting Tonytifao (Reply 14):

Why do you think this is the case? The economic slow down? Do you think AA will fill all their 777s during the summer season in Brazil?

The economic slow down in the US as well as the currency depreciation in Brazil. Fares are lower than last year and i believe they will fill it, but with lower yields than in 2007/2008 season.



New York + Rio de Janeiro = One of the best combinations !
User currently offlineIncitatus From Brazil, joined Feb 2005, 4069 posts, RR: 13
Reply 17, posted (6 years 1 month 2 weeks 4 days 10 hours ago) and read 5932 times:



Quoting LipeGIG (Reply 13):
You're right... DL timing for the new LAX-GRU wouldn't be so worst.

Not only that but it seems that ATL-MAO is doing a lot worse than anticipated. Typically, all flights between Brazil and the US are booked up in January (and July). If DL already knocked out a frequency in January, it means it does not expect to be able to make money in the route in January with 6 frequencies. If that is the case, the route might be able to support twice a week flights off season. Or not even. How thin is Delta willing to go? Run ATL-BEL-MAO-ATL 3 x week and get maybe 15-20 passengers from BEL and 40 from MAO average?



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User currently offlineLipeGIG From Brazil, joined May 2005, 11459 posts, RR: 58
Reply 18, posted (6 years 1 month 2 weeks 4 days 8 hours ago) and read 5861 times:
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Quoting Incitatus (Reply 17):
Not only that but it seems that ATL-MAO is doing a lot worse than anticipated. Typically, all flights between Brazil and the US are booked up in January (and July). If DL already knocked out a frequency in January, it means it does not expect to be able to make money in the route in January with 6 frequencies. If that is the case, the route might be able to support twice a week flights off season. Or not even. How thin is Delta willing to go? Run ATL-BEL-MAO-ATL 3 x week and get maybe 15-20 passengers from BEL and 40 from MAO average?

You seems to be right. Lets wait a few weeks and we should have an indication for the after-season months.



New York + Rio de Janeiro = One of the best combinations !
User currently offlineWorldTraveler From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 19, posted (6 years 1 month 2 weeks 3 days 17 hours ago) and read 5629 times:

Let's step back and get a little perspective.

The whole thesis of this topic is that someone thinks that DL is failing to develop its new NE/interior markets because it is giving up one frequency. Yet, there is clearly more to the story as evidenced by the ongoing 2 ex-UA frequencies that are up for grabs. We will see what the DOT decides soon but to think that DL is "losing" anything will only be apparent when the LAX-GRU vs one more CNF-MIA case is decided.

The simple fact is that DL is the only airline that has seriously challenged AA's dominance in S. America since AA acquired EA's Latin routes and DL's momentum in Latin America is building, not decreasing. It is no secret that the strength of AA's Latin system is deep S. America while it is central America and Mexico for CO. DL continues to expand in S. America while CO and UA both reduce capacity. Whether DL's growth is coming at the expense of CO and UA is debatable but DL is gaining ground against AA.

Whether DL ends up with just under or over 50% of the frequencies of the new NE frequencies s not really signficant. What is signifcant is that DL is the only real challenger to AA's ability to advance in those markets. AA is clearly doing no better than maintain its position of keeping half of the market in Brazil while DL is single handedly challenging AA otuside of GRU and GIG; CO and UA have not even bothered to get into that market.

As I have repeatedly said, AA has really only been able to maintain a dominant position in markets around the world where there are extensive market restrictions by virtue of treaty or slots and those markets now are only LHR and in Brazil. DL is a solid #2 and growing throughout S. America. AA is not the dominant airline in any market in Europe outside of LON which still bears the result of being a restricted access market for decades and which AA only bought its way into. Note: AA's presence at CDG is still minuscule compared to AF/DL under which all N. America to France profits are shared. Only if AA obtains ATI in Spain will AA have a dominant position in a continental Europe country but CO and DL both already have well established positions in Spain. AA has not advanced its presence in Asia to a market leadership position and is not likely to ever do so. Strategically, it is very obvious that the only int'l markets which AA is able to dominate are those that are protected by restrictive treaties or access.

Even with the restrictive access to GIG/GRU, DL will advance its position through the NW merger by using NW's larger 300 and 400 seat 330s and 744s. DL can grow the Brazil market far more by increasing gauge which is a very low risk way of increasing share while AA has no realistic way to increase its presence at GIG/GRU.

DL's case for more access to GRU via the ex-UA slots is strong. Its ability to grow its market position by using larger aircraft in GRU/GIG is obvious. Outside of GIG/GRU, DL will gain appoximately half of whatever new frequencies become available. In S. America as a whole as well as in every country, DL will continue to grow its position relative to every other US carrier in the market.


User currently offlineFlyPNS1 From United States of America, joined Nov 1999, 6733 posts, RR: 24
Reply 20, posted (6 years 1 month 2 weeks 3 days 15 hours ago) and read 5566 times:



Quoting WorldTraveler (Reply 19):
The whole thesis of this topic is that someone thinks that DL is failing to develop its new NE/interior markets because it is giving up one frequency.

No, that's not the thesis of this topic. You're just trying to make it the thesis, so you can go on another diatribe, about who is "dominating" a market.

Reread the original post.


User currently offlineWorldTraveler From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 21, posted (6 years 1 month 2 weeks 3 days 15 hours ago) and read 5539 times:

you have to read everything that MAH has written in other threads as well as what is written hereto understand the context.

Further, it is purely speculation on his part or anyone else's DL is giving up the frequency in the NE in order to get the 2 GRU frequencies. It's possible that might happen but it is pure speculation by any of us to think the two are linked.

And the thread starter is not necessarily the one that says that DL is giving up one MAO frequency bcause it is doing poorly; I didn't say he "wrote" the thesis. but others in the thread have said that.

I still assert that it is likely that DL will get the LAXGRU rights and if it does so, it is getting a proportionately bigger piece of all new Brazil rights for 2008/2009 than any other carrier since GRU rights are clearly worth more than NE Brazil rights. Whether DL is giving up a MAO frequency in order to get the 2 GRU frequencies is speculative.... the result of what actually happens with all of the rights will speak for itself.


User currently onlineC010T3 From Brazil, joined Jul 2006, 3736 posts, RR: 19
Reply 22, posted (6 years 1 month 2 weeks 3 days 15 hours ago) and read 5521 times:



Quoting WorldTraveler (Reply 21):
Further, it is purely speculation on his part or anyone else's DL is giving up the frequency in the NE in order to get the 2 GRU frequencies. It's possible that might happen but it is pure speculation by any of us to think the two are linked.

First of all, Manaus is located in the North, not Northeast. Second of all, have you read Docket DOT-OST-2008-0307-0002.1?

Here is an excerpt:

Significantly, at the time this case was instituted there were only two unallocated U.S.- Brazil frequencies, making the applications of Delta and American mutually exclusive. However, Delta has today given notice to the Department that it will reduce the level of its planned Atlanta – Manaus service from seven to six flights per week. Accordingly, Delta will require only ten of the eleven gateway-restricted frequencies that it was recently allocated by the Department’s Notice of Action Taken dated August 8, 2008, in Docket OST-2008-0227. Because this gateway-restricted frequency has been returned to the Department’s unallocated pool, and may be used to permit one additional U.S. carrier flight to Belo Horizonte, the competing applications of American and Delta are no longer mutually exclusive. Delta has no objection to the allocation of this gateway-restricted frequency to American if the two available unrestricted frequencies at issue in this case are allocated to Delta.

Where is the speculation???


User currently offlineYellowtail From United States of America, joined Jun 2005, 6350 posts, RR: 2
Reply 23, posted (6 years 1 month 2 weeks 3 days 14 hours ago) and read 5516 times:



Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 7):
It sounds like DL's 'route planning by throwing it against the wall and hoping it sticks' is alive and well

Yes it does.



When in doubt, hold on to your altitude. No-one has ever collided with the sky.
User currently offlineCommavia From United States of America, joined Apr 2005, 11974 posts, RR: 62
Reply 24, posted (6 years 1 month 2 weeks 3 days 14 hours ago) and read 5475 times:



Quoting WorldTraveler (Reply 19):
The simple fact is that DL is the only airline that has seriously challenged AA's dominance in S. America

A "fact" in your dreams, apparently.

Delta has not "seriously challenged" American's dominance. They have grown over the last 10 years in the region as the region itself has grown and as American has grown. And yes, obviously, their growth has been proportionately larger, since they are starting from a virtually non-existent base.

Quoting WorldTraveler (Reply 19):
DL's momentum in Latin America is building, not decreasing

Good for them.

Quoting WorldTraveler (Reply 19):
It is no secret that the strength of AA's Latin system is deep S. America while it is central America and Mexico for CO.

American is larger to Central America and Mexico, cumulatively, than Continental.

Quoting WorldTraveler (Reply 19):
Whether DL's growth is coming at the expense of CO and UA is debatable but DL is gaining ground against AA.

No they're not. They're gaining ground as the market grows, and as they grow faster than other airlines - particularly AA - that already have the networks they want and need in the region.

And as to what their growth is "coming at the expense of," let's hope its not their own profits, since there are still plenty of people who have very serious doubts about Delta's ability to consistently operate some of these smaller Latin markets profitably, based on their failure to make lots of smaller secondary Latin markets work in the past.


25 Yellowtail : Couldn't have said this better myself!
26 MaverickM11 : You are so full of it. You were harping on it constantly: "what is you, my friend, that argued that DL would not do well in this route application an
27 WorldTraveler : Aren't you glad that I got this thread going.... it sat around with way too little activity. All of my favorite debaters have now come out of the wood
28 MaverickM11 : So far they've dropped everything they've added at both JFK and LAX to Central/South America, with the exception of GUALAX and LAXLIR or a total of f
29 LipeGIG : No one is saying that the ATL-REC-FOR is a bad performer, and in fact it's not. This specific flight is doing well. The fact is that ATL-MAO isn't go
30 Commavia : And if there is anything in this world that would lead your imagination to believe for one second that AA is in any way getting "trounced" in Brazil
31 MaverickM11 : ....and in bankruptcy
32 C010T3 : What about CNF? The thing is, World Traveler, that I am not buying this story of AA's and DL's. They are working together. It is just so transparent
33 2travel2know : I agree, BSB could have been an interesting destination for DL instead of MAO. When it comes to MAO, I'm affraid DL - like an important Latinamerican
34 WorldTraveler : DL has dropped exactly ZERO routes from JFK and LAX to S. America because they have never flown anything to S. America from LAX and they have ADDED s
35 MaverickM11 : CO currently has more ASMs to the region in APR than DL, and knowing DL, they'll inevitably cut here and there until we actually get to APR. When has
36 MAH4546 : Wrong. They serve an equal amount, with AA non-stop to GRU/GIG/CCS/EZE and DL non-stop to GRU/EZE/BOG/GEO.
37 C010T3 : I know, but that has never stopped anyone...
38 WorldTraveler : M11, your ongoing attempts at telling us what DL CAN"T have clearly been a failure so we aren't any more inclined to believe that your "predictions" f
39 MaverickM11 : I'll just accept your retrenching into your stump speech as an apology and recognition that I'm right. In related news, in March ATLPVG is down to 4
40 Commavia : Sort of like what Delta has been doing for months with JFK-BOG... I still think it is comical that you would refer to AA and DL to Latin America as a
41 LipeGIG : First draft (21 frequencies) only allows North, Northeast and CNF. BSB was not an option. Yes, it's a frequency game, but the fact is that DL selecte
42 C010T3 : Yes, it was!!!
43 WorldTraveler : but if DL didn't acquire the slots, then it couldn't redeploy them wherever it saw the best need in the future, now could it. and whether BSB is allo
44 C010T3 : They have only applied to be able to shift frequencies between CNF, MAO, FOR and REC.
45 Panamair : Once again, DL is leading the legacies in the necessary cutbacks in international given the current states of most world economies (remember who led
46 MaverickM11 : Right, I always forget. When DL cuts routes it's because they're prescient, when others do it its because they can't compete with DL
47 Panamair : Uh, no, where did I say that UA couldn't compete with DLNW?
48 OA412 : Of course not but you know as well as anyone else that, given the state of the world economy, DL will not be the only airline reducing international
49 MaverickM11 : True, but what they're cutting now is not so much do to the deteriorating world economy as routes that didn't have much chance to begin with, ie ATLP
50 OA412 : I respectfully disagree. While it may be the sentiment among some who post here, I don't think that it is the "general" sentiment of the board.
51 MaverickM11 : DL was up in capacity to the region (Latin America, Caribbean, Mexico) last week by about 2% (in terms of ASMs for the first quarter of 2009). After
52 OA412 : What's been cut?
53 MaverickM11 : Just weekly trips here and there, mostly from ATL to SAL/SAP/TGU/AUA/MBJ/PLS/ SXM/Mexico...
54 WorldTraveler : first, DL has hardly released final schedules for the spring. And the spring is not a peak travel period anyway. If DL reduces capacity in an off pea
55 Luv2fly : Titles are just that, I would rather see a title of World's Best or like BA "World's Favuorite".
56 WorldTraveler : no, BA's world's favorite is highly subjective and means nothing. World's largest is factual and definable. DL is the world's largest airline as meas
57 LipeGIG : This is something i dispute. Such destinations was always allowed to be served (except for 2 , IIRC FOR and CWB) but as Brazil is a "grace" country w
58 MaverickM11 : Believe me when I say this, you are the only one that cares. I'm hearing a lot of excuses, and no facts. Watching you back pedal is so delicious I th
59 Sydscott : UA will look behind the times because they've flown to Australia for decades? Interesting logic. BA's World Favourite Airline campaign was a classic
60 WorldTraveler : GRU is such an enormous market compared with the rest of Brazil and is still constrained... which makes fares high for Brazilians and Americans and GR
61 Hardiwv : DL knows quite well the Brazilian market and they have proven that by launching ATL-GIG which I call a major success. DL has a strong grip in GRU mar
62 C010T3 : An important portion of GRU's traffic comes from the rest of Brazil, even from MAO.
63 LipeGIG : Just please do not understand my comment as there's no market there. Just pointed out that our government does not how to provide air services countr
64 WorldTraveler : not really. If so, then why did AA bother to tout its size for the last 6 or 7 years on press releases. Size really does matter. Just because you don
65 MAH4546 : Size only matters to you when Delta is the largest. You had no problem arguing that size didn't matter when Delta wasn't the largest.
66 WorldTraveler : I have always said that size matters in a network business. In specific markets, it is not the sole determinant of success but on an aggregate basis,
67 Sydscott : Ah ok. You mean Delta will be doing what United has already done by adding; IAD - PEK ORD - PEK/HKG/PVG SFO - HKG/PEK/PVG/ICN/SYD HKG - SIN/SGN So, i
68 WorldTraveler : yes, UA did a great job of building a complete transpac system but in case you haven't noticed they are pulling routes like LAX-HKG (which you fail t
69 C010T3 : No, the 7th MAO frequency is gone. DL returned it with no conditions attached.
70 Post contains images MaverickM11 : Careful throwing stones....ATLPVG and ATLICN are way down YOY, ATLBOM is already cut back after less than one month of operation, and DL has more exp
71 MAH4546 : Correct. It is no longer Delta's. Wrong again, as usual. Delta cleverly worded their DOT application by saying that AA didn't use what they had 80% o
72 WorldTraveler : no. read DL's supplement to the route application for LAX-GRU. DL specifically said they would give up the 7th frequency in order to gain the 2 ex-UA
73 Post contains links C010T3 : I actually have read it, but I am almost certain that you didn't read DL's letter returning one frequency to the unallocated pool: http://www.regulat
74 Sydscott : No I did notice that and I'm sure once business picks up routes such as LAX-HKG, SFO-Guanzhou etc will be back. But my point is that UAL already has
75 WorldTraveler : Read DL's supplemental application saying that it would return the 7th MAO frequency if it received the 2 GRU frequencies. But once again, even MAH ac
76 C010T3 : No, don't go twisting things. The documents are even in separate dockets. In the supplement, it is only stated that Delta has no objection to the all
77 Sydscott : To be specific UA is parking 744's. When the economy picks up these can always be re-activated and, indeed, if UA was to successfully apply for LAX-P
78 LipeGIG : Yes, there is market outside Rio and São Paulo, but not in MAO in the size DL is looking for. WT, i'm DL customer, i fly DL very often, more than ev
79 MaverickM11 : You're confusing a seasonal pull down versus a drop in capacity versus the previous year. The former is standard operating procedure; the latter is a
80 2travel2know : DL in MAO reminds me of Braniff attempt to serve MAO decades ago. The MAO market - in the proportion DL expect it to be - isn't just there. If DL can
81 Jetlanta : Mav, with all due respect, you are so adamant to make your point (over and over and over again) that you seem to lose track of the big picture. A red
82 LAXintl : Forget the cargo portion -- DL is not about to carry much in their little 737s! MAO is actually quite a strong cargo market (2nd largest in Brazil af
83 MaverickM11 : Like I said, with DL it's never "cutting", it's always "right sizing". Let's go with the euphemism regardless. 1) The worst routes are going to get r
84 WorldTraveler : I'm not sure how hard it is to see the IF in the last sentence. That makes the statement conditional. I have no specific interest in MAO and I don't
85 C010T3 : Well, I'm not sure how hard it is for you to understand that the condition is restricted to that sentence. The condition is referred to the objection
86 Jetlanta : I'm not sure why you are so focused on PVG. The U.S.-China market has taken a dramatic downturn over the past year. Delta happened to enter the marke
87 DL747400 : Very smart thing for DL to do. More Brazil coming.
88 LipeGIG : MAO problem is that it's business is highly concentrated on Electronic Industry and downturns happens very frequently (right now...). Tourism it self
89 MaverickM11 : No, my premise is what they're cutting is not successful. Big difference. Of course, and guess which routes are going to go by the wayside first As a
90 WorldTraveler : the difference being that other airlines don't reduce their capacity and just lose money. I can assure you that CO is losing money to India right now
91 LAXdude1023 : ORD-EZE was boneheaded to begin with. They choose to upgrade DFW to a 777 and JFK-EZE 12x weekly. That was probably the better descision anyway. In h
92 Sydscott : I still show UA as 5 daily flights to China with 1 deferred to Guanzhou which it never started. So the have the same frequency that they had prior to
93 WorldTraveler : UA was awarded daily service on 5 routes. They are not operating daily service on every route. They have reduced service. UA was awarded service to C
94 LAXdude1023 : Sure if they think PEK is going to lose alot of money. Its a different philosophy between AA and DL. AA choose not to try and fly ORD-PEK and lose mo
95 LAXintl : What route are they not operating daily service on? SFO-PEK SFO-PVG ORD-PEK ORD-PVG IAD-PEK all show daily in the res systems except IAD is cancelled
96 LAXintl : True on that one - however the route went uncontested and was not requested by a single other carrier. If someone else had stepped up and wished to h
97 Sydscott : Look at their schedules. Yes they are. Which means they never started it. It's hard to reduce a service that you have never flown. Prior to the last
98 MaverickM11 : There is no CO reduction. UA reduced IADPEK, which didn't have a chance in hell, much like DL's ATLPVG. If you're flying to China from NYC, SFO, or L
99 Jetlanta : Make you a deal Mav, lets check back in in two years and see which U.S. legacy carrier is in the best competitive position. Your petty little observa
100 WorldTraveler : if it's such a money losing proposition, then AA shouldn't be standing in the way of DL starting the route. AA, after all, is not even using the freq
101 MaverickM11 : I don't think I've ever made a comment on the long term success of DL or any airline; it's all been route specific, which inevitably ends up in a tor
102 LAXdude1023 : Then DL and UA and all the others should return the frequencies they arent using. Since PVG is a business destination and not a liesure destination,
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